-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NBA Offseason Thread! All offseason NBA talk in THIS thread!
- Thread starter DMczaf
- Start date
- Status
DCX said:
I'm not using that "argument"-- like I said, every offensive statistical analysis puts Jordan as the best offensive player since Chamberlain. Bionic then made the statement that somehow Magic was the "best offensive player ever", which is patently untrue; I tried, however, to come up with some formula that would explain how he could say that....and it still didn't work. Because if he made his teammates better through assists, then it would be accounted for by such a formula, and Magic still comes up short. So I dunno where he's coming from with that.
"Making your teammates better" is not an "offensive" quality-- it's a leadership quality, which Johnson (and Jordan) had in spades. If that's what bionic meant, then he shouldn't have said "best offensive player ever", which flies in the face of every professional and statistical analysis that has been conducted in the past 15 years.
And yes, what Robertson accomplished was tremendous; realize, however, that-- at the very least-- his rebound numbers would have dropped considerably in today's game, as he was nearly 6'6", playing in a time when the average player was 6'4", and the average center 6'10". Unless you really think that a 6'5-6'6" guard would be averaging 10-11 rebounds today, which is something that has never been remotely duplicated by any guard (Jordan averaged 9.6 reb/game for an 18 game stretch when Rodman was suspended, and he's largely considered the best rebounding guard of the last 20 years, but I digress...
). Might the Big "O" average 8 reb/game today? Possibly. But 10 or 11? Questionable imo. Still, Robertson (along with Elgin Baylor) probably is the most underrated player of all time. Nate Archibald led the league in scoring AND assists in the same season-- the only player to ever accomplish the feat (33 pts. and 11 asst.). Is he the best offensive player ever now too?
Ninja Scooter
Member
bionic77 said:
In 1981-82, Magic averaged 18.6 points, 9.6 assists, and 9.5 rebounds per game. If you round up, thats a triple-double average. I choose to round up.
As for the Lebron comparisons, c'mon, Lebron is a nice player, but nowhere near what Magic was and probably never will be. (i guess i know how the Jordanites feel when people compare Kobe to their god). I mean, sure he's young, but he's what? 19 years old? Hell, at age 20 Magic was not only leading the Lakers to a championship, but also filling in at CENTER (he's a point guard, mind you) for an injured Kareem Abdul Jabbar and dropping 42 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists in the decisive game 6. Lebron is closer to Penny in his prime than Magic.
Loki said:I'm not using that "argument"-- like I said, every offensive statistical analysis puts Jordan as the best offensive player since Chamberlain. Bionic then made the statement that somehow Magic was the "best offensive player ever", which is patently untrue; I tried, however, to come up with some formula that would explain how he could say that....and it still didn't work. Because if he made his teammates better through assists, then it would be accounted for by such a formula, and Magic still comes up short. So I dunno where he's coming from with that.
"Making your teammates better" is not an "offensive" quality-- it's a leadership quality, which Johnson (and Jordan) had in spades. If that's what bionic meant, then he shouldn't have said "best offensive player ever", which flies in the face of every professional and statistical analysis that has been conducted in the past 15 years.
And yes, what Robertson accomplished was tremendous; realize, however, that-- at the very least-- his rebound numbers would have dropped considerably in today's game, as he was nearly 6'6", playing in a time when the average player was 6'4", and the average center 6'10". Unless you really think that a 6'5-6'6" guard would be averaging 10-11 rebounds today, which is something that has never been remotely duplicated by any guard (Jordan averaged 9.6 reb/game for an 18 game stretch when Rodman was suspended, and he's largely considered the best rebounding guard of the last 20 years, but I digress...
Still, Robertson (along with Elgin Baylor) probably is the most underrated player of all time. Nate Archibald led the league in scoring AND assists in the same season-- the only player to ever accomplish the feat (33 pts. and 11 asst.). Is he the best offensive player ever now too?
You can't hold the Big O's height against him. When your hero Jordan played, almost no one had hops like that and MJ was tall for a guard in his day as well. Now seemingly everyone has at least a 40" vert and 6'6" is not as tall as it used to be for a guard. You judge people against the competition they play against, now against the competition of today. Height is and always will be a big part of bball, and the players seemingly will continue to get bigger, stronger, and faster.
bionic77 said:81? Wasn't that Magic's rookie season?
And Loki, lets see MJ try and play all 5 positions the way Magic could.
The fact that Magic himself says Jordan was the best player ever should negate all Laker fans talking Jordan vs. Magic.
Even your Laker God said it... :O
DMczaf said:The fact that Magic himself says Jordan was the best player ever should negate all Laker fans talking Jordan vs. Magic.
Even your Laker God said it... :O
It is obvious that Jordan threatened them with violence to obtain such blasphemous statements from their holy mouths. Is there any low this guy won't sink to? I mean he has a long history of player abuse, this is just more evidence of his violent nature.
bionic77 said:
You're kidding, right? You've never watched an 80's-early 90's dunk contest, then? There were lots of guys with a lot of athleticism in those days; if you think that "everyone" has a 40" vertical nowadays, I think you need your eyes checked. Just watch those college dunk contests where they tell you exactly what the verticals are-- it's usually between 34-40", with 40" being considered rare and excellent.
And Jordan was 6'6", which was-- shock!-- the average height for a shooting guard in his day, just as it is now. Kobe, Ray Allen, Carter-- they're all 6'6". Guys like McGrady and Pierce are 6'7" or 6'8", but then again, they're not shooting guards (listed); it's just that their skill-set gives them the ability to score more (and, consequently, take a lot of shots). The average NBA height in Jordan's day was 6'7" (based on an ESPN tape I have that says so; it said that Jordan, at 6'6", was an inch shorter than the average NBA player-- I tried googling up average heights, but to no avail); today, the average NBA height is (wow) that same 6'7".
(see: NBA.com link ).First off, all it takes to "play center" is for your coach to put you as the listed center on the roster before a game. With that out of the way, what makes Magic better-equipped to "play center" than Jordan? Rebounding? Magic's highest rebounding game was 18, Jordan's was 18. But Jordan did it twice. Yes, Magic averaged more rebounds than Jordan for his career, but only barely: 7.2 versus 6.4 (pre-wizard). Further, in a nation-wide poll of coaches, analysts and sportswriters, when asked "who would you count on to get the crucial rebound with a game on the line?", Jordan (a shooting guard) ranked second, behind Bill Russell and ahead of Wilt Chamberlain and Moses Malone; Magic wasn't even on the list.
How else do you define who has the "skills" to play the center position? Beyond rebounding, one good measure is skill in the post. Jordan is widely regarded as the best post-up player of his generation, both offensively and in terms of passing out of the post to cutters or spot-up guys, reading the defenses and making the appropriate decisions...you name it, he was the best. Again, this is widely held. Jordan in the post was a monster, a weapon that would disrupt your whole team. Magic, though bigger, was never regarded as a better post player than Jordan was, by any stretch. These are not my opinions-- they're the opinions of professional analysts, coaches, fellow players, and sportswriters the nation over. So you're free to call me crazy, but in view of that sort of consensus, I'd say that you're the one who's not seeing some obvious truths.
Again, I'm not taking anything away from Magic-- he's in my all-time top 5, and watching his many of his old plays today still is very exciting. But "greatest offensive player ever"? Come on now. In terms of his value as a player (i.e., the value rankings mentioned earlier), these were Magic's rankings, from 1980-1991 :
7, 3, 3, 7, 5, 3, 1, 2, 7, 4
Again, Jordan's were: 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3
I'll let you mull those numbers over for a bit.
Obviously, stats don't tell nearly the whole story about a player, but they are certainly one indicator-- particularly when they thoroughly debunk such ludicrous assertions as you've here made. In terms of intangibles, Magic was head and shoulders above all his contemporaries with the exception of Bird (who was roughly equal) and Jordan (who was clearly his superior).Fine, glad we agree; so we'll have to judge Kobe based on how he fares against the league, as measured by his power rankings, which were:
2001: 4
2002: 3
2003: 2
Like I said, when he starts distinguishing himself from his contemporaries (which he hasn't done yet), we can start talking about where he ranks among the all-time greats. Realize that Jordan as a rookie (at age 22) was ranked #2, while it took Kobe until 2003 (after 6 years in the league, and at age 25) to do the same. Like I said, let's see if he starts leading that chart for the next...oh...DECADE or so and then we'll talk. Until then, this is all hot air and mere opinion on your part. It's only opinion on my part also, as far as who I feel the better or more skilled player is, or in terms of intangibles (which cannot be measured), but at least I can back my assertions up in such a manner.
Bionic = man of much hot air
(I'm just messin' with ya-- don't take offense)
Ninja Scooter
Member
DMczaf said:The fact that Magic himself says Jordan was the best player ever should negate all Laker fans talking Jordan vs. Magic.
Even your Laker God said it... :O
he only said that cause he's afraid of Loki.
and Wilt is greater than Michael too. Not only because he was a Laker, but also because his acting in Conan the Destroyer >>> MJ's acting in Space Jam.
Ninja Scooter said:
Heh, I think Wilt could've taken Arnold in that movie.
He was a frighteningly huge man, really.I read in an interview once that he could put his hands around a basketball and all his fingers would touch all around it, like a web-- that's how big his hands were. At least now we know how he bedded those 20,000 women.
Ninja Scooter
Member
bionic77 said:See Jordan is not a team player. If you follow the Lakers, with their vast collection of STD's, you will be learning about basketball AND medicine.
Give in to the dark side Loki........
so true. Besides, who better to learn medicine from than a doctor
Omfg. How old/recent is that footage? Seeing Carter of olde brought tears to my eyes... did you see how high he got when he caught that guy's jumpshot over one defender with one hand? Jesus... obvious goaltend, but I haven't seen him sky like that in a long time. Martin's swat was pretty nuts, too.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
I love this stupid melodrama
Two conclusions:
1. Kobe is a rat.
2. Afterall, Shaq is smarter because he didn't get caught.
Ninja Scooter
Member
:lol Yao Ming on Regis and Kelly.
RobotChant
Member
DarienA said:
Well for a million dollars who wouldn't be. Now we know why he wants such a huge contract.
Takuan said:
That was from August last year. And the thing is, Vince played this way during the first six to eight weeks of the year as well...but then he slumped for a few weeks, then had that quad injury again. Until then though he was throwing down several highlight dunks a week (Vince won like the first seven plays of the week for NBA Action :lol), and probably played the best all around ball of his career with his improved defensive play (I remember games where he was defending Nowitzki and Sheed for entire quarters or halves, and more then held his own). He also played incredibly well for a stretch after the all star break. So it was a season of up's and down's for him. Still, he was eighth in league scoring on a team that was challenging for record offensive futility (and he didn't even shoot that well from the field to boot), so why people act like did nothing last year is beyond me. If he stays with the Raptors and plays with any sort of effort, he'll blow up...as you saw from that vid, up tempo ball fits his style perfectly. I just hope I get to see it. Here.
And as that video showed, no one would've touched that US team. I'm hardly an American cheerleader, but hearing this nonsense that no one in the US can play ball anymore based on the Olympics result is just annoying to me. When most of the best players are on the floor and play the right way, they're nearly impossible to beat. But I do think the depth isn't what it used to be, where you could've sent the fourth best squad to the Barcelona Olympics in '92 and they would've still cleaned up. That and the teams around the world have improved tremendously, thanks to the influx of American coaches and training techniques.
http://itasca.free.fr/dreamteam92.avi
The REAL Dream Team, bitches
WTF, the link is down. Nooooooooooooooooooo!
The REAL Dream Team, bitches
WTF, the link is down. Nooooooooooooooooooo!
Ninja Scooter
Member
DMczaf said:
respect for Pretty Ricky. Helped us win 3 titles,. He was an underrated part of those championship teams. But he was literally worthless last season. Should have just retired a year ago.
Shinobi said:
Nope.
So Mr. Vanessa Williams has finally retired... much props for him(not this season) when he was actively contributing to help the Lakers win.... but really he probably should have retired at the end of last season...
- Status