NeoGAF Ban Review/Justice Project

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haxan7 said:
I'd take a week ban to get evilore to change a major thread title to have my name in it. Seems like a fair trade
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Hmm.

Evilore made it clear why he changed the thread title, can't argue with it, even if it does raise some troubling questions. At the end of the day he has to answer to someone just like anyone else.

Banning a long term member for a week because they questioned further (unless an exchange happened via Pm) gives me deja vu of years of old.
 
tenor.gif
 
Stiflers Mom said:
May I ask what happened to Hariseldon?
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Imagine a chubby, unarmed guy getting in a fight with a jacked dude wielding a rocket launcher, and you've pretty much got it.

Dargor said:
I disagree, its petty and uncalled for. He had a legitimate grievance. He pushed it too strong so I won't say anything about the ban.
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I think that two people that care a lot about Neogaf had a war of words about a very touchy subject, on a day where tensions are already running high.

Haris immediately jumping to 'Bending the knee' and 'Son, I am disappoint' didn't help.

It happened, and I hope everyone involved reconciles. Most of us here are family, and sometimes family has blow-ups, but at the end of the day, it all works out.

In the meantime, the thread title is hilarious, and ironically, it's actually an amusingly good replacement, with a little story behind it and all. Hopefully that's how everyone sees the situation with a little distance.

Looking forward to your return, @hariseldon
 
CatLady said:
So that thread is the former Clown World thread? I'm sad and surprised to hear @hariseldon caught a ban, he's such a great poster but having the 🤡🌏 thread named after you has to be the highest honour ever on GAF.
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I think EviLore did it to blow off some steam. I don't think for a second that an ad agency said "hey change x or else Y" and EviLore just said "sure". I'm betting it was a heated and difficult discussion where EviLore had no choice but to make concessions. After all, this site is built upon its freedom of discussion. I imagine EviLore reacted to Hari with a "well fuck you, I've put up with this shit foe the good of this forum and now I'm taking shit for it", that would have been my attitude, personally, then again Tyler is a better man than I so I can only assume.

At the end of the day, Tyler doesn't have to tell us shit and it is his train set. The freedom of expression that is being eroded away on the Internet is a worry and I don't think we're many years away from a kind of corporate communism/fascism. All of that can't be easy to juggle as the owner, concidering all of the events in the past.

Shitty situation for all.

Luckily, Hari is British so he will have a good moan and then just get on with it.
 
I can get the mindset he was coming from, but at least free speech in posts isn't being policed/censored like in some places. A silly meme title getting changed to something else is a drop in the water in the big picture, who cares?
 
Sterling88 said:
I can get the mindset he was coming from, but at least free speech in posts isn't being policed/censored like in some places. A silly meme title getting changed to something else is a drop in the water in the big picture, who cares?
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First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

That's why people take an interest in things changing.

You don't cook a frog by throwing it in hot water. You put it in cold water and increase the temperature slowly (frogs can't feel/detect incrimental changes in temperature)
 
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dunno if that metaphor works here as the thread content is unchanged, explanation expanded

thread identity feels nuked from orbit tho, clown world had a percipient quality
 
Gashtronomy said:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

That's why people take an interest in things changing.

You don't cook a frog by throwing it in hot water. You put it in cold water and increase the temperature slowly (frogs can't feel/detect incrimental changes in temperature)
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My guy it's one word in a title. The place doesn't suddenly become an SJW haven because of that. Whenever there's actual policing of free speech, then it's cause for alarm. But thankfully this place sticks to its principles, so I don't have to worry about that.
 
That quote wasn't for the clown world thread but a look forward to a worst case scenario on the Internet.

So if people perceive that we are taking a step forward towards that, they get jumpy.
 
Sterling88 said:
My guy it's one word in a title. The place doesn't suddenly become an SJW haven because of that. Whenever there's actual policing of free speech, then it's cause for alarm. But thankfully this place sticks to its principles, so I don't have to worry about that.
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Read my reply above.i should have made it a bit more clear.
 
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Sterling88 said:
Whenever there's actual policing of free speech, then it's cause for alarm
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I honestly don't see how this isn't exactly that. Someone whined about the use of the word clown apparently (give me a break), and now you can't have a thread with that as the title. This isn't even based around a slur or anything.
 
Gashtronomy said:
I think EviLore did it to blow off some steam. I don't think for a second that an ad agency said "hey change x or else Y" and EviLore just said "sure". I'm betting it was a heated and difficult discussion where EviLore had no choice but to make concessions. After all, this site is built upon its freedom of discussion. I imagine EviLore reacted to Hari with a "well fuck you, I've put up with this shit foe the good of this forum and now I'm taking shit for it", that would have been my attitude, personally, then again Tyler is a better man than I so I can only assume.

At the end of the day, Tyler doesn't have to tell us shit and it is his train set. The freedom of expression that is being eroded away on the Internet is a worry and I don't think we're many years away from a kind of corporate communism/fascism. All of that can't be easy to juggle as the owner, concidering all of the events in the past.

Shitty situation for all.

Luckily, Hari is British so he will have a good moan and then just get on with it.
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Nothing so formal or dramatic happened. It was flagged as a terms violation, as content on GAF is on a semi-regular basis. I evaluated this case as something that would best be changed to avoid the association with certain unsavory elements (which CW has since taken on, even though the original GAF CW thread predates that), since it doesn't actually have such affiliations. I can choose to do nothing, but I have to be willing to defend that decision at some point in the future too, if it comes to that. In this instance it's better for all involved to make some minor adjustments, keep the thread intact, and have a stronger leg to stand on when the site needs to be defended.

These decisions are made every day to keep the site running smoothly and above board, just like the decisions about DMCA requests and C&D requests. It's not a "slippery slope;" it's what I've been doing since the formation of GAF.

Re: hari, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about discussing site matters. He chose the wrong way: jumping to conclusions, insults, sensationalized declaratives, aggressive escalation. There's only one way that ends.

Hope that helps clarify.
 
EviLore said:
Nothing so formal or dramatic happened. It was flagged as a terms violation, as content on GAF is on a semi-regular basis. I evaluated this case as something that would best be changed to avoid the association with certain unsavory elements (which CW has since taken on, even though the original GAF CW thread predates that), since it doesn't actually have such affiliations. I can choose to do nothing, but I have to be willing to defend that decision at some point in the future too, if it comes to that. In this instance it's better for all involved to make some minor adjustments, keep the thread intact, and have a stronger leg to stand on when the site needs to be defended.

These decisions are made every day to keep the site running smoothly and above board, just like the decisions about DMCA requests and C&D requests. It's not a "slippery slope;" it's what I've been doing since the formation of GAF.

Re: hari, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about discussing site matters. He chose the wrong way: jumping to conclusions, insults, sensationalized declaratives, aggressive escalation. There's only one way that ends.

Hope that helps clarify.
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I get it, sometimes it's better to make little concessions that don't impact anything and saving the ammo for later, vs blowing your load over nothing and having no Ace up your sleeve for when the real shit goes down.

The slippery slope wasn't an accusation of what was happening to the CW thread, more of an explanation as to why people get jumpy when things change.

I'm glad the Hari ban was reduced from a week

As always, thanks for the clarification.
 
EviLore said:
Nothing so formal or dramatic happened. It was flagged as a terms violation, as content on GAF is on a semi-regular basis. I evaluated this case as something that would best be changed to avoid the association with certain unsavory elements (which CW has since taken on, even though the original GAF CW thread predates that), since it doesn't actually have such affiliations. I can choose to do nothing, but I have to be willing to defend that decision at some point in the future too, if it comes to that. In this instance it's better for all involved to make some minor adjustments, keep the thread intact, and have a stronger leg to stand on when the site needs to be defended.

These decisions are made every day to keep the site running smoothly and above board, just like the decisions about DMCA requests and C&D requests. It's not a "slippery slope;" it's what I've been doing since the formation of GAF.
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It's actually really interesting to see a little bit of how things work behind the scenes.

I don't know how or when, or if it'll even come up, but more fun bits of info like that would be neat, provided you enjoy sharing them.
 
-Arcadia- said:
It's actually really interesting to see a little bit of how things work behind the scenes.

I don't know how or when, or if it'll even come up, but more fun bits of info like that would be neat, provided you enjoy sharing them.
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Hariseldon will also find it useful for when he builds his own forum.
 
-Arcadia- said:
It's actually really interesting to see a little bit of how things work behind the scenes.

I don't know how or when, or if it'll even come up, but more fun bits of info like that would be neat, provided you enjoy sharing them.
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Coming soon: a behind-the-scenes look at the day to day operations of NeoGAF, narrated by Ryan Reynolds.
 
Sterling88 said:
My guy it's one word in a title. The place doesn't suddenly become an SJW haven because of that. Whenever there's actual policing of free speech, then it's cause for alarm. But thankfully this place sticks to its principles, so I don't have to worry about that.
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It's not about the word itself. It's the fact that the wrong people apparently still have their boot on the throat of free speech via advertising pressure. I don't blame EL. It's a tough position. But I think people like myself, S Slings and Arrows autoduelist autoduelist @hariseldon are right to wonder what gets censored next due to advertising pressure. That's how these activists operate. They browbeat you into conforming to their speech and thought codes by threatening your livelihood. It's so slimy but it's everywhere on the internet now. GAF has been an oasis in a sea of shit and the last couple of years have felt like a big middle finger to the authoritarians. If you don't understand that perspective, then you won't understand why such a small word change is seemingly being blown out of proportion. I reiterate: it's not about the word change itself; it's that it's a reminder that we're not as unshackled from the thought police as we thought we were. What's next?
 
matt404au said:
It's not about the word itself. It's the fact that the wrong people apparently still have their boot on the throat of free speech via advertising pressure. I don't blame EL. It's a tough position. But I think people like myself, S Slings and Arrows autoduelist autoduelist @hariseldon are right to wonder what gets censored next due to advertising pressure. That's how these activists operate. They browbeat you into conforming to their speech and thought codes by threatening your livelihood. It's so slimy but it's everywhere on the internet now. GAF has been an oasis in a sea of shit and the last couple of years have felt like a big middle finger to the authoritarians. If you don't understand that perspective, then you won't understand why such a small word change is seemingly being blown out of proportion. I reiterate: it's not about the word change itself; it's that it's a reminder that we're not as unshackled from the thought police as we thought we were. What's next?
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This is heartening.

Nothing so formal or dramatic happened. It was flagged as a terms violation, as content on GAF is on a semi-regular basis. I evaluated this case as something that would best be changed to avoid the association with certain unsavory elements (which CW has since taken on, even though the original GAF CW thread predates that), since it doesn't actually have such affiliations. I can choose to do nothing, but I have to be willing to defend that decision at some point in the future too, if it comes to that. In this instance it's better for all involved to make some minor adjustments, keep the thread intact, and have a stronger leg to stand on when the site needs to be defended.
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That sounds like this has been happening for a long time, has been denied, and said authoritarians will be in for a fight.

The Clown World thing seems to be an exception based on how close that's come to alt-right culture. Don't get me wrong, any censorship is bad censorship, but if we had to lose a battle, a word in a title, that's unfortunately extremely incendiary to morons, seems like an acceptable compromise.

Which is not to say that I'm dismissing your concerns, which I 100% agree with. A practical mantra for these people is to knock out advertising pillars and apply pressure to change the content to their liking, so better caution than complacency.
 
-Arcadia- said:
This is heartening.



That sounds like this has been happening for a long time, has been denied, and said authoritarians will be in for a fight.

The Clown World thing seems to be an exception based on how close that's come to alt-right culture. Don't get me wrong, any censorship is bad censorship, but if we had to lose a battle, a word in a title, that's unfortunately extremely incendiary to morons, seems like an acceptable compromise.

Which is not to say that I'm dismissing your concerns, which I 100% agree with. A practical mantra for these people is to knock out advertising pillars and apply pressure to change the content to their liking, so better caution than complacency.
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I don't buy the alt-right angle. The first place I ever saw the term Clown World was on GAF, and it's totally apt for all the shit that's going on in the world right now. I googled and found that rationalwiki page that I linked previously and it just sounds like more conspiracy nonsense like the OK symbol. So while activists may not be directly involved in the word being banned from GAF, the fact that it's even associated with alt-right sure seems to be a result of blue check activism. So I ask: what's banned next? General honking?

And violation of whose terms? GAF's, GAF's service provider's, GAFs advertisers'? Like I said, I understand why the decision was made if the $ are being threatened. I would likely do the same. My frustration is with the fact that the people we've spent two years pushing back against apparently still wield influence on the $.
 
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matt404au said:
From what you said, it sounded like there was pressure from advertisers. Why would advertisers be worried about the term "Clown World"?
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Because it's associated with the alt-right, as Arcadia mentioned. Given that the thread doesn't have anything to do with the alt-right, it's not a problem to change the name.
 
EviLore said:
Because it's associated with the alt-right, as Arcadia mentioned. Given that the thread doesn't have anything to do with the alt-right, it's not a problem to change the name.
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Many things have been associated with the alt right 👌🏻 Anyway, you've made your decision and I'll leave it there.
 
matt404au said:
I don't buy the alt-right angle. The first place I ever saw the term Clown World was on GAF, and it's totally apt for all the shit that's going on in the world right now. I googled and found that rationalwiki page that I linked previously and it just sounds like more conspiracy nonsense like the OK symbol. So while activists may not be directly involved in the word being banned from GAF, the fact that it's even associated with alt-right sure seems to be a result of blue check activism. So I ask: what's banned next? General honking?
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I can personally confirm that it's everywhere in that culture. I'm not too particular about where I get my free speech from when there's barely any left, especially before I found new Gaf, even if I have to occasionally rub shoulders with people that disgust me.

Honk Honk, Honkler, and Clown World are huge with that crowd.

As your frustrations go, I completely agree. As I said, I don't want to downplay anything. I would just hold off on pressing the fire alarm, because the image EL passes on, is that this is quite business as usual.

This didn't just happen overnight. It's been happening, and we've been just fine, for long before I was even posting here too. A compromise was made on Clown World, and that seems to have generated no end of controversy, but it was specifically made as an acceptable sacrifice, so those big battles could be tackled.

I don't want to downplay that either. There needs to be all kinds of perspectives and opinions on this, but Clown being removed from a title is a very small sacrifice for a very big gain (so advertisers and hosts don't think we're literally Hitler), imo.

If we get down the road and words are regularly disappearing from Gaf, I'll hit that alarm button with you.
 
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An adjacent story I have about this type of thing is that years ago I had a friend that worked for McAfee. So he was telling me one day he noticed that a forum we both posted on had been added to the internet block list. A forum very much like GAF, not dodgy or controversial content. So he decided to look into it as he was in a position to be able to remove that forum from the block list.
What he found was the only reason the forum had been added to the block list was specifically because on one topic only. The "Hot girl picture" topic. It didn't contain any porn, just glamour shots. So he contacted the forum owner and let him know that if that topic was removed, the forum could be taken off the block list. The topic stayed and the forum was blocked at many workplaces ect.

it's not always about advertisers.
 
EviLore said:
just like the decisions about DMCA requests and C&D requests
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Why would GAF get DMCA requests? I thought those were exclusively for pirated content? C&D I guess are for talking about TLOU2 spoilers or maybe discussing leaked info in the next gen threads?
 
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Wouldn't it be better if we discuss with these kind of idiots like "Just Sayin" here instead of banning them?
Or is this just stirring shit up and doesn't lead to anything good anyway?

hmmm...
 
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