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New Paper Mario Interview (Leaving pure RPG to M&L, TTYD remaster is possible & more)
- Thread starter Richie
- Start date
Even if the first Mario & Luigi was good, it was still clearly inferior to Paper Mario 64, let alone TTYD. Then all the games in the M&L got progressively worse. It seems pretty out of touch to keep pushing that series over Paper Mario, especially after the blowback from Paper Jam. And Sticker Star. And hell, I loved Super Paper Mario, but they were getting requests for a traditional RPG even back then!
I have no idea how it hasn't gotten through Nintendo's thick skulls that when people want Paper Mario, they want Paper Mario.
I have no idea how it hasn't gotten through Nintendo's thick skulls that when people want Paper Mario, they want Paper Mario.
I would consider Sticker Star to be the worst Mario RPG so far without a doubt, but the Mario and Luigi series has had a noticeable dip in quality itself.
I don't get Nintendo's treatment of Paper Mario. They clearly "get" that people enjoy the RPG elements of it, because they go out of their ways to keep the RPG-like battles around, even though they make them ultimately pointless to the progression of the game.
Green Mamba
Member
Well, I didn't really want to get into a whole big thing about the house, so fair enough.
Concerning Paper Jam, that game just seemed to come and go with no one even noticing. How did it sell? I haven't even heard of it breaking a single million, but that seems ridiculous to me so I'm not going to believe that.
It's kind of funny from the interview--she says that people liked the RPG elements, colorful characters, humor, and puzzles of the original Paper Mario games. So they decided to focus on... two of those aspects (humor and puzzles).
If it takes them another four years to make another Paper Mario it will release sixteen years after TTYD.
Common Knowledge
Member
Like other people have said, this would be an easier pill to swallow if the Mario and Luigi games weren't also declining in quality and character. I'm currently going through Paper Jam right now, and....I don't know, I mean, it's decent and I still enjoy the battle system as always, but the structure of the game and the characters are just so bland. It feels "factory-made", if that makes sense. Just entirely mechanical and by-the-numbers. And even disregarding that, Mario and Luigi was never really about deep stories anyway; they were more about witty humor and funny interactions-the plot is just a basic set up for the game. Paper Mario was much more in-depth and had a full repertoire of story tones-from humor to sad/melancholy. They may have been both RPGs, but their focus was on entirely different elements.
Really, at this point, all we can really hope for is that Mario and Luigi picks up the slack and starts really giving us a more creative Paper Mario-esque game world. The Mario and Luigi developers are certainly capable of doing it, I believe. And honestly, it'd be cool to see a console Mario and Luigi game finally.
As for Paper Mario, I think this interview is the confirmation that it's not for me anymore. I don't see it ever returning back to its roots, cause even if Color Splash ends up completely bombing (and, being a Wii U game, it very well might), I see these developers just killing off the series for good before they go back to a traditional RPG. I get the impression that they just don't want to make those kinds of games anymore.
Really, at this point, all we can really hope for is that Mario and Luigi picks up the slack and starts really giving us a more creative Paper Mario-esque game world. The Mario and Luigi developers are certainly capable of doing it, I believe. And honestly, it'd be cool to see a console Mario and Luigi game finally.
As for Paper Mario, I think this interview is the confirmation that it's not for me anymore. I don't see it ever returning back to its roots, cause even if Color Splash ends up completely bombing (and, being a Wii U game, it very well might), I see these developers just killing off the series for good before they go back to a traditional RPG. I get the impression that they just don't want to make those kinds of games anymore.
As someone who kinda got buzzed out early on with TTYD while playing a friend's copy, I can't really comment on that stuff, but I did really enjoy SPM a whole lot so if they don't wanna make a straight up RPG, I still don't get why they can't make a game like that. It has elements of an RPG yeah but it's still differentiated enough that it's not like the Mario & Luigi series.
TBH, I totally get their argument for wanting to keep the straight up Mario RPG stuff there, but like, SPM is not that.
TBH, I totally get their argument for wanting to keep the straight up Mario RPG stuff there, but like, SPM is not that.
AuthenticM
Member
Oh fucking fuck off, Nintendo. Disconnected motherfuckers.
does anyone have the interview where miyamoto told the guy leading paper mario to drop the unique characters? So we got a punch of llifeless same faced toads that happened to sell more and they think this is what the series should become. I'm guessing score doesn't factor into Nintendo decision either.
RoyaleDuke
Banned
Fuck. FUCK EVERYTHING. Paper Mario was basically a dumbed down SMRPG, M&L doesn't even compare on any level with SMRPG. Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door were both incredible games that I have fond memories of.
It sucks what Nintendo is doing to this franchise.
Green Mamba
Member
It was the Iwata Asks. Tanabe quotes Miyamoto as saying "As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world."
Allan Holdsworth
Member
Looking forward to it. I appreciated what Sticker Star was going for. However the overabundance of Toads is disappointing, as well as the reliance on a single item to beat the bosses. My memory is bad though, I think you could actually beat the bosses without them in Sticker Star? Doesn't look like it's the case in the Morton fight.
Toads are cool and all, but after Paper Jam had them everywhere I wish they would switch it up. I don't even mind enemies being regular Mario series enemies, as I like them, though they should dig deeper into lesser used ones.
What stood out to most was how by the numbers the level/world design was. They had cool abilities like the paper airplane but used them in the most mundane ways. There were invisible walls everywhere except in Bowser's Castle, so you couldn't even use it to go through earlier areas faster. The battle system/design was great though, probably the best in the series. And the dialogue was hilarious at times, I don't remember it being that funny in the last few M&L (but again, bad memory).
Seriously, Intelligent Systems should team up with Alphadream and develop the ultimate Mario RPG.
Toads are cool and all, but after Paper Jam had them everywhere I wish they would switch it up. I don't even mind enemies being regular Mario series enemies, as I like them, though they should dig deeper into lesser used ones.
What stood out to most was how by the numbers the level/world design was. They had cool abilities like the paper airplane but used them in the most mundane ways. There were invisible walls everywhere except in Bowser's Castle, so you couldn't even use it to go through earlier areas faster. The battle system/design was great though, probably the best in the series. And the dialogue was hilarious at times, I don't remember it being that funny in the last few M&L (but again, bad memory).
Seriously, Intelligent Systems should team up with Alphadream and develop the ultimate Mario RPG.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
Didn't they just do that? And it was kind of forgettable.
It was a collaboration where AD did all the heavy lifting.
We mean a true collaboration.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
Hell no. Superstar Saga would be the best Mario RPG by a wiiiiide margin if it weren't so short. It destroys Paper Mario 1, and while I personally liked it more than Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Wall of Text, I acknowledge that that game is praised over other Mario RPGs for good reasons. I don't know how Superstar Saga could be considered 'clearly inferior' to any Mario RPG, much less Paper Mario in particular.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
IS didn't work on Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, as far as I know
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
But that's the marriage of the IPs. I can't see how they would mesh well working together, or how that would make a superior product. Just seems like a conflict.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
That is true. I think the problem is that people miss the things Paper Mario had that M&L does not - the more serious & lenghty stories, the clear separation in chapters (each with its own little story), the multiple towns, 8 party members, sidequests such as cooking or fulfilling requests, etc.
Luigi's never coming back as an actual character again and the point of the house in the first three games was that both Mario and Luigi live in it
The Silver
Member
Why can't Nintendo just give the people want they want, jeez
At least go down the Super Paper Mario route, that game had great characters.
At least go down the Super Paper Mario route, that game had great characters.
Storm Kyleis
Member
People are complaining about two completely different things:
- Few RPG elements
- No original content
The former doesn't really seem like a problem to me - yes, I loved Paper Mario as an RPG, but I'm also fine with the series exploring different genres. Super Paper Mario was ok. I don't think they should give up complexity for the sake of accessibility, but I like the idea of a more adventure-based Mario sub-series.
The latter, in my opinion, is the real issue. And it's not just about Paper Mario, it's about the Mario series as a whole: Nintendo EAD, Intelligent Systems, AlphaDream, even Camelot games used to have their own style, characters and locations until a few years ago. Even when Paper Mario departed from the RPG formula, it still felt like Paper Mario. Every game today is made to resemble the mainline series, and the unique charm of each spin-off is gone. Only characters originated from EAD games (see: Nabbit from NSMBU and Draggadon from Captain Toad, the new additions to Paper Jam and Color Splash) are allowed to exist in the latest spin-offs, except mascots like Kersti or Huey. Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are both resorting to Kamek and the Koopalings for their bosses. The same logic applies to environments: the usual grasslands, deserts, beaches, forests and volcanos.
Nintendo forces every Mario game to "look like Mario", and this severely limits the creativity of each individual sub-series.
- Few RPG elements
- No original content
The former doesn't really seem like a problem to me - yes, I loved Paper Mario as an RPG, but I'm also fine with the series exploring different genres. Super Paper Mario was ok. I don't think they should give up complexity for the sake of accessibility, but I like the idea of a more adventure-based Mario sub-series.
The latter, in my opinion, is the real issue. And it's not just about Paper Mario, it's about the Mario series as a whole: Nintendo EAD, Intelligent Systems, AlphaDream, even Camelot games used to have their own style, characters and locations until a few years ago. Even when Paper Mario departed from the RPG formula, it still felt like Paper Mario. Every game today is made to resemble the mainline series, and the unique charm of each spin-off is gone. Only characters originated from EAD games (see: Nabbit from NSMBU and Draggadon from Captain Toad, the new additions to Paper Jam and Color Splash) are allowed to exist in the latest spin-offs, except mascots like Kersti or Huey. Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi are both resorting to Kamek and the Koopalings for their bosses. The same logic applies to environments: the usual grasslands, deserts, beaches, forests and volcanos.
Nintendo forces every Mario game to "look like Mario", and this severely limits the creativity of each individual sub-series.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
It doesn't?
What's the worst that could have happened had you asked something like "What would you say to fans who are unhappy with the series' recent move away from RPG-like elements?" or "or will we ever see a more story driven Paper Mario in the style of the first three games?".
Nintendo doesn't look to NeoGAF to see what's working for their fanbase. They won't know unless we tell them.
Professor Beef
Banned
Weirdest part of this thread are people making claims that SMRPG was better than the games after it.
You're right. They look to Japan.
You're right. They look to Japan.
Chronospherics
Member
What's weird about that? My fiance loves that game, and the first two Paper Mario games, but dislikes all the others.
Which Mario and Luigi games would you recommend? Which ones play like the original Paper Mario? I have only played the first one I think.
dampflokfreund
Banned
Exactly this.
It bothers me a lot more than Paper Mario not being a RPG anymore.
And also, the same issue has Mario 3D World and Mario&Luigi Paper Jam. I don't understand why Nintendo does this. Probably to save money.
Well, none of them play like Paper Mario. The first is probably the closest, though, and certainly my favorite. The third (Bowser's Inside Story) is pretty solid from what I remember, although it has some annoying parts. I didn't really like the 2D parts at all, and I kind of just went through them because I had to. The platforming wasn't really good, so they were mostly just thrown in to mix things up.
The second and fourth aren't bad, but I wouldn't go out of my way to play them, really.
I haven't played Paper Jam, though. No opinion on that one.
Mr Waluigi
Banned
Super Mario 3D World and Mario Kart 8 have plenty of creativity. Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam's point was to feature regular Mario characters with a simple story, because they didn't want to go wild with the plot & universe. It is true that for some time every Mario game was just reusing as many NSMB assets as possible (Mario Party 9...) but I don't feel like this is the case anymore. It's more of an issue of the Mario RPG teams going in a very strange direction for some reason.
And I agree that the gameplay itself is fine. Losing important stickers was way too easy and battles felt useless by only giving coins & basic stickers, but otherwise Sticker Star was fine on that aspect. I do wish they went back to what they did with PM1 and 2 but I don't hate the new battle system. The insistance on having a simple story with Bowser as the bad guy and only regular (read: NSMB) Mario characters is criminal. At the very least, they could give NPCs different looks & names.
Green Mamba
Member
Which is silly because the Paper Mario games have always sold more in the West.
The only other Mario & Luigi worth playing other than the first is Bowser's Inside Story. The rest range from forgettable to just plain not good. None of them are particularly similar to Paper Mario, but of all of them the first is probably the closest.
Yeah, I can understand the logic behind changing the mechanics to further differentiate the series from Mario and Luigi. But why do they have to gut out everything else that makes Paper Mario distinctive as well? Would anybody be put off by new characters, or Paper Mario veterans over Toads? Just the fact that I already know I'll be fighting the seven Koopalings and Bowser is a bummer. Didn't expect that at some point I'd fight an evil Luigi, or I'd be kicked out of my body and wind up fighting Mario and my partners while I was playing the old ones. Or solving the mystery behind an immortal creature that eats Ghosts and later finding and fighting its heart.
The sad thing is that the only Mario sub-series that's been allowed to keep its identity is the Mario Kart series and I'm sure that's because it has such a wide appeal and if they started gutting Rainbow Road and replacing it with a generic NSMB volcano, people would definitely take issue. The result? It is by far the best Mario series aesthetically. Mario Kart 8 is definitely the most visually appealing game on the Wii U.
Green Mamba
Member
I can't decide if Nintendo is being self-aware or not here.
Yeah, not really interested in M&L, because it's just M&L and I'm not really a fan of the combat system just turning into memorization games for some moves and relying too much on system functionality for others. Cant get behind Paper Mario , because the games are no longer enjoyable for me because all of the elements I loved were stripped out of them save for the visual style. I'll wait for Paper Mario/ TTYD remakes and be content.
The Japanese's fanbase reaction to Sticker Star and now Colour Splash is similar to the west's, interestingly enough.
As an aside: It is true that Sticker Star sold well, but one thing that's not brought up is that the game (unusually for a Nintendo game) was quickly and massively discounted. I remember Best Buy selling it for $5 new before getting rid of it. Barring a massive turnaround in public perception, I don't expect Color Splash to do well at all.
Ganondorfo
Junior Member
"Oh no its not like my favorite Paper Mario 2 on Gamecube, so I will dislike this, even if the trailer looks cool" Thats how the Paper Mario fans sounds on every upcoming Paper Mario that isnt the same as Thousand Year Door.
Every fanbase is like that, Final Fantasy do the same it the newest Final Fantasy doesnt have the same vibe as VI, or Resident Evil fans do that when it doesnt have the same feeling like their old precious tank control Resident Evil games.
We get it, Paper Mario 2 is a masterpiece, and it will be difficult to dethrone that, but lets be happy that the new Paper Mario is nailing that beautiful look with Color Splash. At least is not Federation Force.
Every fanbase is like that, Final Fantasy do the same it the newest Final Fantasy doesnt have the same vibe as VI, or Resident Evil fans do that when it doesnt have the same feeling like their old precious tank control Resident Evil games.
We get it, Paper Mario 2 is a masterpiece, and it will be difficult to dethrone that, but lets be happy that the new Paper Mario is nailing that beautiful look with Color Splash. At least is not Federation Force.
Green Mamba
Member
Yeah, okay buddy. "At least it's pretty."
The idea that Paper Mario fans are just incapable of accepting Color Splash because it's some new untested paradigm shift in the series is completely incorrect. Color Splash isn't a new untested paradigm, it's built on the same formula that Sticker Star was made from, one that many people have played and hated. A polished turd is still a polished turd.
Not true, a lot of people actually played Sticker Star and didn't like it that much as a game, and Color Splash looks like it will be very similar to that.
Also it's nothing weird at all being disappointed by Nintendo removing features you really enjoy in one of your favorite series. It's one thing with spinoffs, but this is a big change of the mainline Paper Mario.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Inside Story is one of the best RPGs Nintendo has made.
Super Star Saga is great as well.
The other three are fine, but only play them if you like the series.
Well of course TTYD will never be topped because Nintendo confirmed that they're no longer making Paper Mario RPG's. Different is fine. This isn't different, it's a followup to a game that most people complaining already played and didn't like. And all the NPC's are exactly the same as each other. But yeah, the visuals are really nice and it could be a good game.
I'll echo the recommendations for Superstar Saga and Bowser's Inside Story, but I'd recommend playing SSS first because it has much simpler battle mechanics and there's a certain character who appears in both games that debuted in SSS.
Meesh
Member
I'd take TTYD remake right now, I've been wanting it for awhile so them teasing like this hurts lol. It's sadly the only Paper Mario I actually went outta my way to beat so I have a soft spot for it...Anyways it'd be great if they went back to the classic Mario RPG formula for something on NX.
Best of both worlds!
Mr Waluigi
Banned
It has nothing to do with missing TTYD and everything to do with missing the scope & ambition that characterized the first three games and that was absolutely gone from Sticker Star (and possibly Color Splash). TTYD is just idealized because SS is trash in comparison (still a good game, but very subpar for the series' established standard, and people are mad because the developers have decided SS would be the nex standard)
CosmicQueso
Member
I played TTYD for the first time last year after playing Super Paper Mario on the Wii. Thinking there are a lot of rose colored glasses on about TTYD. I found Super Paper Mario to be much more enjoyable.
Sticker Star wasn't great, but based on what has been shown, much more optimistic on this one.
Sticker Star wasn't great, but based on what has been shown, much more optimistic on this one.
plentyofmilhouse
Member
I literally JUST finally bought a copy of Thousand Year Door on GameCube after foolishly trading mine in years ago. I would STILL buy a HD remaster, it's that good.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Plenty of people have affirmed how much they don't care about whether Sticker Star is TTYD2. For instance, I consider Sticker Star bad even if you took away the brand. Like, hot garbage bad, on fire, with used diapers filling it to capacity.
There's a lot of truth to that but the M&L series still has lots of weird and original characters. Paper Jam is a bit of an exception because it was a hurriedly produced schedule filler that re-used a lot of stuff.
NeonZ
Member
There's the possibility that Dream Team just escaped from the mandate because it came midway through its development (and it was an outside team, so it might have been slower to get to them than to Paper Mario's).
The series was great to me till Sticker Star, and this is Sticker Star 2. A ton of us were fine with SPM
nah, doesn't work there.
Detractors of PMSS and Color Splash have detailed key elements of what's wrong.
There's not really rose colored anything. Stuff like "TTYD did this, and SS and Color Splash aren't" are pretty much factual statements. SPM being more enjoyable than TTYD is fine for someone though, as both are good games and it depends on the player taste. They both reviewed well near around ~90 metacritic iirc. It doesn't take anything away from ttyd though.