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Newly commissioned warship USS Zumwalt's guns have no ammunition.

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MJPIA

Member
Flashback when plans were different and economy of scale was at work.
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2001/March/Pages/Naval_Guns7095.aspx
March 2001
In the U.S. Navy’s plan for fighting wars in the future, combat ships will serve as mobile sea-based artillery, providing fire support from as far away as 100 miles. Advanced naval guns shooting satellite-guided munitions, officials said, will provide the same land-combat firepower that today would require several batteries of howitzers. Further, if the new gun systems work as advertised, they would allow the Navy to hit targets ashore for much less than what it costs to strike with Tomahawk cruise missiles.

“We want an affordable round to do a small hole in a building, right where you want it. [But] we don’t want to spend a million dollars a pop,” said Capt. Tom Bush, program manager for the Navy’s futuristic destroyer, called the DD-21.
The 62-caliber gun for DD-21, called the advanced gun system (AGS), will fire 12 rounds a minute and largely will automate the ammo-loading process. This is an important consideration, because DD-21 will sail with two-thirds fewer crew members than the DDGs.
The Navy wants each AGS gun to have an automated magazine that can accommodate between 600 and 750 rounds, for up to 1,500 rounds per ship. The DD-21, at 14,000 tons, will be able to store more ammunition than the 9,000-ton DDGs.
Antoniotti expects that the AGS projectile will cost less than $50,000 each, once in production. “If you can kill a $4 million battle tank with a $50,000 projectile, that’s a great trade,” he said.
 

Madness

Member
This is eventually why China will surpass them. A stagnant economy with little growth and high military spending. It cannot go on for good. Before Reagan refocused on the Soviet Union, they had militarily surpassed the US in all aspects. And in the end, their collapse was economic.

The F22 Raptor program cost hundreds of billions of dollars. In the end, they saw little to no combat because you don't need stealth fighters against poor terrorists in the desert and were plagued with problems and the fleet was grounded altogether and now they are focused on tbe next generation of sealth F-35 JSF platform fighters.
 

HariKari

Member
A Tomahawk cruise missile costs $1.5m , even a shoulder fired Javelin is like $150k

Both have a pretty good ROI if you consider the alternative solutions and the costs associated with them.

This ship, however, is objectively stupid. The military in general has an obsession with advanced for the sake of advanced, which in turn leads to cost increases, which snowballs into reduced orders, and even more increased costs as a result.

I can't even remember the last successful large scale purchase. Strykers? And those were derivatives of an existing Swiss vehicle.

The F22 Raptor program cost hundreds of billions of dollars. In the end, they saw little to no combat because you don't need stealth fighters against poor terrorists in the desert and were plagued with problems and the fleet was grounded altogether and now they are focused on tbe next generation of sealth F-35 JSF platform fighters.

The F22, in operations, has actually been great. If anything, they are realizing that they didn't buy enough of them.
 

Monocle

Member
I wonder when people will start realizing how superfluous our military spending is.
Oh great are you one of those commies who thinks investing in health care, welfare programs, education, or science is a better way to spend money than sick-ass warship rounds that cost $800,000 each?

We need to keep our country SAFE. In the coolest and most extravagant way possible. If we can't launch F-20s with catapults, this is the next best thing.
 

DrSlek

Member
So the Zumwalt class is a dud, and the F-35 might be a dud....and the new Russian Armata tank apparently outclasses anything in the NATO tank fleet.

Is there anything the US military can objectively look forward to in the future?
 
So the Zumwalt class is a dud, and the F-35 might be a dud....and the new Russian Armata tank apparently outclasses anything in the NATO tank fleet.

Is there anything the US military can objectively look forward to in the future?

According to what? We almost never hear about deficiencies in Soviet/Russian or Chinese equipment because it's not public info and there's zero transparency in those military organizations. All we know about them comes from brief glimpses in military parades, carefully controlled media releases and speculation from western military observers.
 

DrSlek

Member
According to what? We almost never hear about deficiencies in Soviet/Russian or Chinese equipment because it's not public info and there's zero transparency in those military organizations. All we know about them comes from brief glimpses in military parades, carefully controlled media releases and speculation from western military observers.

According to the UK Ministry of Defense from what I read yesterday.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-has...ry-tank-generation-says-leaked-report-1590126
 

FelixOrion

Poet Centuriate
According to what? We almost never hear about deficiencies in Soviet/Russian or Chinese equipment because it's not public info and there's zero transparency in those military organizations. All we know about them comes from brief glimpses in military parades, carefully controlled media releases and speculation from western military observers.

I'm always reminded about the worries and unknown behind the MiG-25 which turned out to have serious flaws and not all the US worried it would be. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160905-the-pilot-who-stole-a-secret-soviet-fighter-jet
 
According to the UK Ministry of Defense from what I read yesterday.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-has...ry-tank-generation-says-leaked-report-1590126

They're correct it's revolutionary in concept, but lines like "questioned whether the UK has the ability to fight the tank" is pretty bizarre. Russian tanks have had active protection systems since before the Cold War and we have no indication that this tank is any tougher to kill in any other dimension. The fact that it is reportedly designed to be unmanned in some instances is what is unusual / exciting about it. Not that it's somehow invincible or completely outmatches existing MBTs.

Russian tanks being lighter / faster is normal, as NATO tanks were designed to be heavy and extremely well armored as a response to the anticipated combat role of NATO (on the defensive against superior Warsaw Pact numbers), while Russian tanks were designed to be cheaper, lighter, and offensively minded (big gun, less protection, less crew comfort). Compare tanks of equivalent generations - T72 (1972) was 41 tons, while the Chieftan tank (1966) was 55 tons and both M1 Abrams and Leopard 2 tanks in the late 70's were in the 55-65 ton range. The T90 is 46 tons, and the Armata is estimated to finally break into the 50t class, although some versions reportedly are under 50t.

Western forces have typically not valued the tank highly in recent times because of the combination of difficulty using it in a low intensity conflict and the sitting-duck nature of tanks in situations where air supremacy cannot be achieved.
 

Spectone

Member
ddg1000-02.jpg

Upgrades

Carrier%20Command_1.png
 

AYF 001

Member
Russian tanks being lighter / faster is normal, as NATO tanks were designed to be heavy and extremely well armored as a response to the anticipated combat role of NATO (on the defensive against superior Warsaw Pact numbers), while Russian tanks were designed to be cheaper, lighter, and offensively minded (big gun, less protection, less crew comfort). Compare tanks of equivalent generations - T72 (1972) was 41 tons, while the Chieftan tank (1966) was 55 tons and both M1 Abrams and Leopard 2 tanks in the late 70's were in the 55-65 ton range. The T90 is 46 tons, and the Armata is estimated to finally break into the 50t class, although some versions reportedly are under 50t.
Just a few nitpicks.

The Soviet medium and heavy tanks of the early cold were all around superior to anything the Allies or Axis had developed. The T-54 was unlike any medium tank in terms of frontal protection from KE weapons, and the IS-3 was frontally impenetrable to almost any WW2 weapon when it was deployed in late 1945.

However, once sabot rounds became reliable enough and fin-stabilized HEAT rounds made RHA armor obsolete, the Germans took those conditions into account when designing the Leopard 1 and Kanonenjadgpanzer. Very little armor, but high mobility and a gun that rendered the concept of the heavy tank useless. They were intended to ambush and conduct hit and run attacks in terrain where superior gun depression would limit exposure in hilly terrain.

Once composite armor allowed for the creation of modern day MBTs, the differences in design philosophy became more clear. The Soviets always placed crew as the lowest concern of tank design, and as such they were designed to function with little training, and height restrictions for crew members were needed in order to actually fit inside. They also use autoloaders extensively, as this removes a crewman from the tank, making them smaller still. NATO tanks kept the loaders, whose extra volume required a heavier tank for the same level of protection. The extra training crews receive can allow for more complex maneuvers, even against superior numbers or against a single tank of more advanced design.
 
Just a few nitpicks.

The Soviet medium and heavy tanks of the early cold were all around superior to anything the Allies or Axis had developed. The T-54 was unlike any medium tank in terms of frontal protection from KE weapons, and the IS-3 was frontally impenetrable to almost any WW2 weapon when it was deployed in late 1945.

However, once sabot rounds became reliable enough and fin-stabilized HEAT rounds made RHA armor obsolete, the Germans took those conditions into account when designing the Leopard 1 and Kanonenjadgpanzer. Very little armor, but high mobility and a gun that rendered the concept of the heavy tank useless. They were intended to ambush and conduct hit and run attacks in terrain where superior gun depression would limit exposure in hilly terrain.

Once composite armor allowed for the creation of modern day MBTs, the differences in design philosophy became more clear. The Soviets always placed crew as the lowest concern of tank design, and as such they were designed to function with little training, and height restrictions for crew members were needed in order to actually fit inside. They also use autoloaders extensively, as this removes a crewman from the tank, making them smaller still. NATO tanks kept the loaders, whose extra volume required a heavier tank for the same level of protection. The extra training crews receive can allow for more complex maneuvers, even against superior numbers or against a single tank of more advanced design.

Yes I'm discussing late cold war tank design philosophy, since those are the ones still in front line service in most countries. Leopard 2s, Abrams and T72 being by far the most common tanks in service for NATO and Russia today. The extra crew member also provides some redundancy/flexibility in the tank's operation/maintenance and experienced crews can typically outperform an auto-loader in short-term engagements. You see a lot of experiments with guided tank munitions (ATGMs fired from tank guns) from the Warsaw pact side as they typically didn't have the same long range accuracy as the heavier NATO stuff too.
 
In his recent interview with the POTUS, Maher brought up the important speech on the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about. Obama was well aware of it, but his answer to the question seemed to disappoint Maher.
 

antonz

Member
why do we need this ugly piece of shit again?

It was originally to replace our Aging fleet of Destroyers with Modern Stealth Destroyers.

The US Navy is an aging fleet that needs to be modernized. The Current Class of Destroyers was designed in the early 80s. It has modernizations as far as computers etc. but its an ancient design.

In the last 20 years there have been a number attempts at new designs but it has been a shitshow. Future Destroyer Program was a disaster, Future Cruiser Program a disaster. Littoral Combat ships are a disaster to the point they are now restarting the Destroyer Program from the 80s with more modernizations for more ships because the Littoral are worthless.

This is all examples of why spending is out of control. We aren't getting things right the first time so we have to rebuild. restart programs etc.
 

Sunster

Member
It was originally to replace our Aging fleet of Destroyers with Modern Stealth Destroyers.

The US Navy is an aging fleet that needs to be modernized. The Current Class of Destroyers was designed in the early 80s. It has modernizations as far as computers etc. but its an ancient design.

In the last 20 years there have been a number attempts at new designs but it has been a shitshow. Future Destroyer Program was a disaster, Future Cruiser Program a disaster. Littoral Combat ships are a disaster to the point they are now restarting the Destroyer Program from the 80s with more modernizations for more ships because the Littoral are worthless.

This is all examples of why spending is out of control. We aren't getting things right the first time so we have to rebuild. restart programs etc.
in your opinion where are we fucking up more, our navy or air force? I know we just spent an ungodly amount on that stupid jj the jetplane
 

Gragen

Member
One thing to consider about all this, if we needed this ammunition, we would have it and it wouldn't make the news.
 
Cant they just use cheaper ammo for the testing? I mean I know most navy ships in USA go out and bomb beaches on random ocean islands but cant they just keep the real ammo for if there is a conflict?

pumping 150 LRLAP into sand seems like a waste
 
So instead of just buying more destroyers to get those $50k bullets, they're only going to buy three destroyers that can't actually destroy anything.

And yet people have the gall to complain about the NASA budget.
 

antonz

Member
in your opinion where are we fucking up more, our navy or air force? I know we just spent an ungodly amount on that stupid jj the jetplane

The F-35 is actually starting to get reasonable so in the end may not be as bad of a disaster as it could have been. In fact the US may get sued now by Lockheed because the Pentagon made a contract for 107 million per F35 for the next batch down almost 10% from the last batch. Lockheed is complaining they were not given the chance to negotiate.

The Navy though is a complete shit show. The Littoral Class can be knocked out by a single RPG. Now the navy intends to modify the Littoral design costing an extra 150 million tacked on to each ship just to get them slightly better as far as survivability etc.
The other programs have been so bad they never got past the drawing board stage.
 

Soapbox Killer

Grand Nagus
Using bullets in 2016.

Come on science, where's our energy weapons.

No energy weapons on Non-Nuclear ships for another 5-7 years last time I checked.

In ten year, every ship will have some sort of energy projectile weapon ay a cost of over 100,000,000,000 US Dollars...and I think its worth it. Same tech maybe used on spaceships for anti- collision detection for long voyages...and alien defense.
 
Over under on them stopping this because the railgun project is further along than originally thought?.. this thing was built to carry a railgun, right?
 
The Navy though is a complete shit show. The Littoral Class can be knocked out by a single RPG. Now the navy intends to modify the Littoral design costing an extra 150 million tacked on to each ship just to get them slightly better as far as survivability etc.

How did they get all the way through to production without realizing that?
 
This is like the Chris Rock "we don't need gun control we need bullet control .. if every bullet cost five thousand dollars" skit played out on a grand scale.
 

antonz

Member
How did they get all the way through to production without realizing that?

That really is the magic question. They were designed to be shallow water combatants so would obviously be close to the battle yet at the same time they were designed to be completely unable to survive that situation.

The first ship of the class has suffered fast paced hull corrosion due to the aluminum hull. The class is so bad that they are talking about building modernized versions of the Arleigh Burke destroyers from the 80s into the late 2040s.
 

Coldsun

Banned
Wha..wo..uh...WHY. Why did you build your ship to use million dollar bullets

Because obviously they were expecting them to be around 50k per and the price would of been closer to that had they built the other 10x ships they were planning on.
 
The joke is that the argument for the return of naval guns is that it would be cheaper than using cruise missiles like the Tomahawk.

But Lockheed finds a way like they did with the F-35.

Now a several decades old design will stay the workhorse of the Navy.
 
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