PSP games are designed with a small screen in mind. They can afford to get away with less polys, lesser textures, etc. at times. Conversely, future GC games developed with the GBE in mind won't necessarily look better than PSP games developed in the same generation. The small screen/pixels that hides inadequacies in PSP games could also hide details that make the GC/GBE version superior. Unless there was a hardware generation in difference, like DS and PSP, most people wouldn't see a major difference between the two.soundwave05 said:
Next Gameboy backwards compatible with GCN?
- Thread starter GSG Flash
- Start date
soundwave05
Member
aoi tsuki said:
I've "rigged" my GameCube to play games off one of those PSOne screens. It still looks considerably better than what I've seen off the PSP. Some games actually look better for some reason (Wave Race: Blue Storm and Super Mario Sunshine for instance).
People need to get it in their heads that Nintendo is not going to lose piles of money to sell devices to people in the hope that they can recoup that lost money on software. Frankly, giving away consoles in order to sell games is pretty dumb. It makes your tech look "cheap" and removes a lot of the wow factor successive price drops create among consumers.
It also costs you a fucking boatload of money to sell hardware at a loss. Nintendo doesn't give away boatloads of money to anyone. Hence any kind of portable like PSP, which is obviously sold at a massive loss, is not going to come from Nintendo.
It also costs you a fucking boatload of money to sell hardware at a loss. Nintendo doesn't give away boatloads of money to anyone. Hence any kind of portable like PSP, which is obviously sold at a massive loss, is not going to come from Nintendo.
soundwave05
Member
It also costs you a fucking boatload of money to sell hardware at a loss. Nintendo doesn't give away boatloads of money to anyone. Hence any kind of portable like PSP, which is obviously sold at a massive loss, is not going to come from Nintendo.
You may have a point except Mr. Iwata, the president of Nintendo, has already said they're considering what you just said was impossible.
A refined GCN chipset by 2006 probably won't cost all that much anyway. Do you really think the Game Boy Evolution is going to come to market in 2006 and not be more powerful than the PSP?
They already have the DS, so there's no "in between" place for them to go, GB Evo has to topple the PSP.
You may have a point except Mr. Iwata, the president of Nintendo, has already said they're considering what you just said was impossible.
A refined GCN chipset by 2006 probably won't cost all that much anyway. Do you really think the Game Boy Evolution is going to come to market in 2006 and not be more powerful than the PSP?
They already have the DS, so there's no "in between" place for them to go, GB Evo has to topple the PSP.
seismologist
Banned
Thank you Dave. This is another one of Matt's pipe dreams. It's never going to happen. By the time the tech is affordable enough to do and with reasonable battery life we'll be well into next gen and a portable Gamecube will seem irrelevant.
I'm sure Nintendo already explored the idea, and concluded that it just wasn't feasible.
I'm sure Nintendo already explored the idea, and concluded that it just wasn't feasible.
soundwave05
Member
seismologist said:
I really don't understand this line of thinking. Do you really think Nintendo can release a Game Boy Next in 2006 and have it only be on par with the PSP power wise?
Who the fuck is gonna buy into that when the PSP has already been availible for 15-18 months?
They might as well not bother to even release that then and just give Sony the keys to the handheld market right now.
I think you missed me on this one. I'm not talking about lazy programmers, I'm talking about lazy artists. And I'm not talking about Soul Calibur 2 or any upgrades of currently existing games. I'm talking about Soul Calibur 4 and Splinter Cell 5. These games will have new levels and new stages and new characters....new content that has to be created. Instead of creating a set of custom-made models and textures for the Cube(Boy), they will just use the stuff they created for the PSP version. They might get it running with the old engines, but it's the complexity of the models and textures that really contributes to how a game looks -- and that might be dumbed down to PSP-level.soundwave05 said:
The flash drive would be an interesting idea, though Nintendo might think it's "too complex" for their younger audience to comprehend. Though if kids can understand hard drives on computers it's probably not that much of a stretch. Hopefully 1.5 gigs of flash memory won't be too expensive in a couple years. A 1 gig SD card is only like sixty or seventy bucks right now, right?
It's an option. A choice. That's why it's so important IMO.Das Scotter said:
I use my iPod for music, so yeah, I don't really care if PSP plays music or not. But it does. And for many, many people (myself not included, obviously), that is going to be a very big selling point.
Because of this, if anyone is going to present a competitor to the PSP that's going to want any chance of being successful, it's going to need to at least match the PSP, function-wise. That means being able to play music and movies.
GameCube is a perfect example of why going games-only and not trying to compete on the media front is a bad idea. Look at it -- third-party support is all but dead and it never got anywhere near as big as it should have, because the system never took off the way it should have -- and would have -- had it also had the ability to play DVDs and CDs. You can't ignore mainstream consumers and expect to be successful, it just doesn't work anymore. If I'm Joe Average Consumer who doesn't live and breathe videogames but likes the occasional game of Madden or Halo now and then like anyone else, why would I buy a system like GC when I can get one just like it (PS2) that also plays DVDs and CDs and doesn't look like a lunchbox? The answer is, I wouldn't. And that's just what happened. Sticking to that crappy-ass 1.5GB proprietary disc format instead of going with the industry standard was a huge mistake, just like when they went with carts over CDs on N64.
If Nintendo's going to compete with PSP, the next GBA *HAS* to be able to do at least as much as the PSP can. At the very least, if they don't show up with at least as nice of a screen, better hardware, some kind of analog control and a better media format (all of which sounds highly unlikely to me), they may as well just pack it in and go home.
So as not to be exceedingly negative this fine afternoon, let me flip this and present a question to you folks (not only the N-heads, but normal people as well): do you honestly think Nintendo is going to come back with a portable that will rival PSP in terms of quality and capabilities? If so, I'd like to hear your thought on this. When, why, how, etc. etc.
soundwave05
Member
Dave Long said:
I think this is exactly why DS is on the market now.
They can't bring Game Boy Evo to the market right now, not because its not possible, but because its too expensive. They have to wait a year.
So they brought out a stop-gap, taking the Nitro chipset they've had in their R&D for a while and slapping a touchscreen onto it.
I don't buy for a second that the DS was not a direct response to the PSP. Matt is not just throwing this stuff out there. He has a very good understanding of how Nintendo works and has the best contacts in the biz with them. It's been widely discussed/speculated that Nintendo does "sit" on portable chipsets.
The GBA chipset was done for years before they actually released it.
I think Nintendo's hope is that people would shrug off the PSP like they did with the Game Gear and then they could sit on the idea of the GB Evo for a while longer too, but the PSP is looking more and more like the real deal, a Game Boy/DS killer, Nintendo will have to act soon.
Here's another tip, the reason PSP is so cheap is because Sony figured out that charging what the device costs to produce would not be feasible for the handheld market which expects low prices, durability and good tech (not great). They overdid it with the tech and now they have to eat the cost to try to create a base in the hope of selling enough software (themselves and licensees) to cover those costs.
It's a portable that faces the Xbox problem. Worse, it's portable which means the amount of dollar sales of games is going to be much lower than sales on a home console. People just don't buy so many games for their handheld game machines. Look at sales of PSP games in Japan if you need proof. Look at sales of GBA games despite the absolutely ENORMOUS installed base of GBA and GBA SP. I think Sony is in a losing game even if they "win" because they just can't hope to sell enough software, even if the device is highly successful, to offset the cost of the hardware. Then packing in all that extra functionality like movies and music? They're going to sell next to no movies and all the music people use will be either a.) stolen or b.) from all sorts of labels, most of which Sony does not own. They get NOTHING from music other than a bulletpoint on a box and some consumer interest (if they don't already have an iPod).
So basically, it all leads back to this. Portable game hardware should never be sold at a loss, or if it is, then that loss should be absolutely miniscule, like $10 or less per unit. You cannot make up that money in game software. Period.
It's a portable that faces the Xbox problem. Worse, it's portable which means the amount of dollar sales of games is going to be much lower than sales on a home console. People just don't buy so many games for their handheld game machines. Look at sales of PSP games in Japan if you need proof. Look at sales of GBA games despite the absolutely ENORMOUS installed base of GBA and GBA SP. I think Sony is in a losing game even if they "win" because they just can't hope to sell enough software, even if the device is highly successful, to offset the cost of the hardware. Then packing in all that extra functionality like movies and music? They're going to sell next to no movies and all the music people use will be either a.) stolen or b.) from all sorts of labels, most of which Sony does not own. They get NOTHING from music other than a bulletpoint on a box and some consumer interest (if they don't already have an iPod).
So basically, it all leads back to this. Portable game hardware should never be sold at a loss, or if it is, then that loss should be absolutely miniscule, like $10 or less per unit. You cannot make up that money in game software. Period.
God's Hand
Banned
I'm not worried about GBE's technical aspects. Nintendo has consistently been the leader in terms of technology. SNES > Genesis. N64 > Saturn/PSX. GC > PS2 (then Xbox came out...). That's why I'm disappointed with the DS. Nintendo clearly rushed this product.
JackFrost2012
Banned
If Nintendo doesn't create a portable system which plays movies and music out of the box, has beautiful widescreen graphics and analog control, and retails for $200 or less, then they might as well go back to making playing cards.
It doesn't matter how much money Nintendo has in the bank. If their next Game Boy system doesn't compete technologically and pricewise with the PSP, they will lose their marketshare overnight.
It doesn't matter how much money Nintendo has in the bank. If their next Game Boy system doesn't compete technologically and pricewise with the PSP, they will lose their marketshare overnight.
soundwave05
Member
I think a portable GCN could be sold at a profit by spring 2006.
Chipset/disc drive costs them say $50, the LCD costs $30-$50, the battery costs an additional $40-$50.
I bought my 5-inch PSOne 640x480 LCD at retail for $40.
They wouldn't be able to make a massive profit off it, like they've done with the Game Boy for years, but that's also a benefit of not having a tech-hungry competitior like Sony who is able to sell hardware nipping at your heels. I don't agree, however, that such a device would make them lose a lot of money either though.
Chipset/disc drive costs them say $50, the LCD costs $30-$50, the battery costs an additional $40-$50.
I bought my 5-inch PSOne 640x480 LCD at retail for $40.
They wouldn't be able to make a massive profit off it, like they've done with the Game Boy for years, but that's also a benefit of not having a tech-hungry competitior like Sony who is able to sell hardware nipping at your heels. I don't agree, however, that such a device would make them lose a lot of money either though.
John, I think that Nintendo releasing the Play-Yan for the GBA and DS at least shows that they are open to the idea.
most of the people posting here are insane.
the general person who walks into a store and says "oh i think i will buy a portable game system lets see which one do i want?"
will the consumer go for
A: product one looks fancy but only has about 75-100 titles available
or
B: product two which just came out yet already has over 400 + titles available with many more on the way and also works as backwards compatable in thier home console. not only that but the system itself is then plugged in as the controller since the new controller is all revolutionary.
so many options that could be taken advantage of yet they do not have to be.
the general person who walks into a store and says "oh i think i will buy a portable game system lets see which one do i want?"
will the consumer go for
A: product one looks fancy but only has about 75-100 titles available
or
B: product two which just came out yet already has over 400 + titles available with many more on the way and also works as backwards compatable in thier home console. not only that but the system itself is then plugged in as the controller since the new controller is all revolutionary.
so many options that could be taken advantage of yet they do not have to be.
God's Hand
Banned
Since when does "has" mean anything other than past-tense?
Play-yan is a non-factor. Nobody will buy it, and it's not even available in regular stores. And even if every GBA owner in the world magically obtained one, it still doesn't compete with what you can do with a PSP.Das Scotter said:John, I think that Nintendo releasing the Play-Yan for the GBA and DS at least shows that they are open to the idea.
The dialogue with Dave Long just accentuates the bind that Nintendo is in. If it is going to take a couple years for PSP-level hardware to be profitable, then in a couple years the best they will be able to do is match the PSP's performance with a new product.
If they can get out of this "Must show profit from Day 1" mentality, then they can release something superior. But is it really worth it when small screens can hide superiority and it will take a VERY BIG technological jump to show off a noticeable difference? As it is, most people didn't really give a damn that the Cube was superior to the PS2....so would they swing the same way with CubeBoy versus PSP? If the PSP becomes the "target platform" most 3rd party games won't look that much better anyhow, because art from PSP versions will be rehashed anyway.
Sony's advantage in every generation has been that they are the target platform. Against the PS1, this was crippling to the N64 because the target platform had storage capabilities far beyond that of Nintendo's console. Against the PS2, it was somewhat marginalized but still a factor because the Cube version of a game never really looked that much better than the PS2 version. It gets even worse because casual gamers don't really give a fuck about "polish" and shitty PS2 games with framerate or loading problems still sell better.
If they can get out of this "Must show profit from Day 1" mentality, then they can release something superior. But is it really worth it when small screens can hide superiority and it will take a VERY BIG technological jump to show off a noticeable difference? As it is, most people didn't really give a damn that the Cube was superior to the PS2....so would they swing the same way with CubeBoy versus PSP? If the PSP becomes the "target platform" most 3rd party games won't look that much better anyhow, because art from PSP versions will be rehashed anyway.
Sony's advantage in every generation has been that they are the target platform. Against the PS1, this was crippling to the N64 because the target platform had storage capabilities far beyond that of Nintendo's console. Against the PS2, it was somewhat marginalized but still a factor because the Cube version of a game never really looked that much better than the PS2 version. It gets even worse because casual gamers don't really give a fuck about "polish" and shitty PS2 games with framerate or loading problems still sell better.
soundwave05
Member
john tv said:
I agree, but it is significant in that it shows that Nintendo really doesn't back the "games only" stance.
GB Evo could easily support MP3/MP4 functionality. Not only that but Nintendo is also getting into the movie business themselves.
Times change.
seismologist
Banned
soundwave05 said:
Your letting your personal opinion cloud your judgement just because you happen to like the PSP more than the DS. Matt's doing the same. In reality the DS is well on it's way to selling 5 million systems in a little over 3 months.
Sure Nintendo could release a $200 portable GC in 2006 and probably break even but it doesn't make any sense. 15 months later than the PSP with the same tech.
I think they know better than to put themselves in this position.
I think Nintendo is gearing up to take Sony head on with the DS. In the end it'll be the software that sets them apart. Not the graphics.
soundwave05
Member
I don't believe a portable GCN couldn't be sold at a slight profit.
I mean hell, think about it, even now you can jury rig a "portable" GameCube for under $200 on your own (LCD + battery pack) and that's with retail mark up.
Of course they'd have to get ATi to redesign the chipset, but this would probably yield a cheaper chipset in the long run. Crude example, but still, you can't tell me its impossible, even Iwata says its a possibility.
The PSTwo model that Sony sells is considerably cheaper for Sony to make than those old PS2 models, even though its like 1/3 the size and eats up 1/4th the power (or something like that).
It is about the graphics. You may not want to admit it, but no one is going to give a shit about NBA Street, Grand Theft Auto, etc. on the DS. So yes, graphics (or more specifically PROCESSING POWER which allows developers to do more) is important.
Nintendo's always maintained Game Boy Evolution/Next is coming, the DS in no way replaces that.
I mean hell, think about it, even now you can jury rig a "portable" GameCube for under $200 on your own (LCD + battery pack) and that's with retail mark up.
Of course they'd have to get ATi to redesign the chipset, but this would probably yield a cheaper chipset in the long run. Crude example, but still, you can't tell me its impossible, even Iwata says its a possibility.
The PSTwo model that Sony sells is considerably cheaper for Sony to make than those old PS2 models, even though its like 1/3 the size and eats up 1/4th the power (or something like that).
It is about the graphics. You may not want to admit it, but no one is going to give a shit about NBA Street, Grand Theft Auto, etc. on the DS. So yes, graphics (or more specifically PROCESSING POWER which allows developers to do more) is important.
Nintendo's always maintained Game Boy Evolution/Next is coming, the DS in no way replaces that.
Don't forget the wireless!JackFrost2012 said:
The movies will be a tall order, though - Sony may be able to get away with creating a new format for movies and games (the UMD) but what clout has Nintendo got? You think Iwata is going to the movie makers and ask them to release movies on tiny discs to play on the new Gameboy? I doubt they'll ask Sony if they can borrow UMD technology.
The other method would be ripping movies to flash memory, but then you know the MPAA's going to get involved.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
"Since when does "has" mean anything other than past-tense?"
... you don't think you can use the word "has" to have continuous action?
"David has been going to the gym" for instance?
regardless - it was more the "GC > PS" as part of the past tense albeit with the "until the Xbox"
so Nintendo were effectively tech leaders ... twice?
... you don't think you can use the word "has" to have continuous action?
"David has been going to the gym" for instance?
regardless - it was more the "GC > PS" as part of the past tense albeit with the "until the Xbox"
so Nintendo were effectively tech leaders ... twice?
Not to dredge up 9 year old fanboy wars, but as recent threads have shown it's kind of debatable as to whether or not the PSX was really below the N64. They just excelled in different areas. Nintendo went with effects, Sony went with pure polygon-pushing power. Nintendo went with speedy ROMs and a crap sound chip, Sony went with a slower storage format and a drive capable of Redbook audio.
Yes, the next GBE has to have multimedia features, whether it's playing music, movies, or whatever, just offer it all.
If Nintendo doesn't do that, and instead chooses to stick to a games-only machine, they're going to be fucked. I wonder what it will take for Nintendo to fix their errors. They make great software but seem to fuck up on hardware decisions generation after generation.
Nintendo doesn't have to be the tech leader, they can simply match the PSP or offer slightly below specs, as long as they offer the games to attract consumers. Plus if they stick with dual screens for the GBE, they can offer that as an original feature.
If Nintendo doesn't do that, and instead chooses to stick to a games-only machine, they're going to be fucked. I wonder what it will take for Nintendo to fix their errors. They make great software but seem to fuck up on hardware decisions generation after generation.
Nintendo doesn't have to be the tech leader, they can simply match the PSP or offer slightly below specs, as long as they offer the games to attract consumers. Plus if they stick with dual screens for the GBE, they can offer that as an original feature.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
'The movies will be a tall order, though - Sony may be able to get away with creating a new format for movies and games (the UMD) but what clout has Nintendo got?"
they could make movie files playable from a memory card (SD), they don't need to create a movie format/arm of thier own.
they could make movie files playable from a memory card (SD), they don't need to create a movie format/arm of thier own.
Slightly Off-Topic, but does anyone know if the Play-Yan (GBA/DS Movie Player) is any good? The impressions from IGN were pretty bad, but I'd like another opinion. My main worry is that they are building something that will only take advantage of the ARM7 processor and none of the DS's extended capabilities.
soundwave05
Member
I don't agree.
If Nintendo is bringing Game Boy Next to market in 2006, it has to be considerably more powerful than the PSP.
If they can't do that within their profitibility context, why do people think Nintendo has any prayer of releasing a console at the same time as the PS3 and having more or less the same power?
Border --
Play-yan only uses the ARM7 processor AFIAK.
If Nintendo is bringing Game Boy Next to market in 2006, it has to be considerably more powerful than the PSP.
If they can't do that within their profitibility context, why do people think Nintendo has any prayer of releasing a console at the same time as the PS3 and having more or less the same power?
Border --
Play-yan only uses the ARM7 processor AFIAK.
God's Hand
Banned
DCharlie said:
"David has been going to the gym" implies he doesn't anymore, unless there's more you'd like to add... "David still goes to the gym" implies he still goes to the gym.
Is life so boring that you're analyzing internet posts? lol
I mentioned flash memory later in my post - it raises the issue of movie piracy. Plus encoding a movie for use on a memory card isn't the same as popping a disc into a drive.DCharlie said:
I surfed through the PSP encoding thread a bit - it's not quite plug and play, is it?
Not a bad point - I think they're going after the distributors rather than the copiers right now.aoi tsuki said:
soundwave05
Member
explodet said:
That's just a software issue though. Eventually there will be software that makes PSP play video files about as easy as converting a CD file to your i-Pod. The MPAA can bitch and moan all they want about it.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
""David has been going to the gym" implies he doesn't anymore.
no it doesn't.
"Wow - Doesn't David look BUFF!"
"Yes... he has being going to the gym"
"are you gonna buy a PSP? I hear John has one"
"i would, but my brother already has one"
....
Which part of that is past tense? He's been going, he's still going!
"Is life so boring that you're analyzing internet posts? lol"
ah, the sweet sound of retreat.
no it doesn't.
"Wow - Doesn't David look BUFF!"
"Yes... he has being going to the gym"
"are you gonna buy a PSP? I hear John has one"
"i would, but my brother already has one"
....
Which part of that is past tense? He's been going, he's still going!
"Is life so boring that you're analyzing internet posts? lol"
ah, the sweet sound of retreat.
I think ever-since the RIAA lost their lawsuit against Diamond/RIO, the movie/recording industry lobbyists have had their hands tied. Manufacturers cannot be held responsible if customers use their products for illegal ends, so long as there is a legitimate purpose to the product. Hell, it really goes back even further to the MPAA versus Sony Betamax case.
The MPAA hasn't filed any lawsuits against the PSP, or any of the current "media jukeboxes" from Lyra, Archos, etc. So long as their hardware and software does not actively subvert copy-protection measures, even the Draconian DMCA is not gonna help them. A movie-enabled GBE would not present a liability problem for Nintendo.
The MPAA hasn't filed any lawsuits against the PSP, or any of the current "media jukeboxes" from Lyra, Archos, etc. So long as their hardware and software does not actively subvert copy-protection measures, even the Draconian DMCA is not gonna help them. A movie-enabled GBE would not present a liability problem for Nintendo.
Play yan is made for the GBA specifically (I'd even go as far as saying the GBA SP). I don't even know if it uses the internal processor for anything except screen output. I would imagine most of the processing is done in the cartridge. Certainly all the sound is handled there, though it does output through the speakers and GBA headphone socket should people want inferior sound.border said:
soundwave05
Member
Resident Evil 4
Legend of Zelda Reborn
Star Fox Armada
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
Madden NFL 2007
NBA Live 2007
NHL Lockout 2007
NBA Street Vol. 4
Geist
Soul Calibur 2
Tales of Symphonia
Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes
etc. etc. etc.
Would not be a bad way to start off a library though. Mario 128 could be a "launch" title.
You do have to wonder why Nintendo is so gung-ho about GCN software dev, this could help explain that.
Legend of Zelda Reborn
Star Fox Armada
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
Madden NFL 2007
NBA Live 2007
NHL Lockout 2007
NBA Street Vol. 4
Geist
Soul Calibur 2
Tales of Symphonia
Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes
etc. etc. etc.
Would not be a bad way to start off a library though. Mario 128 could be a "launch" title.
You do have to wonder why Nintendo is so gung-ho about GCN software dev, this could help explain that.
radioheadrule83
Banned
E3. I think it'll get at least a mention.
soundwave05
Member
I would assume they'd just use the same boxes, but just include little plastic cases inside of newer games for pocket friendliness.
soundwave05
Member
AniHawk said:Wouldn't it be cheaper to just do GBE boxes instead, and slowly phase out GC? Plus, it'd look like there'd be a fucking shitload of games for the GBE if it launched with 500 games that way.
I suppose they could do that also. I like the Japanese boxes myself actually.
Azrael said:
The difference between a PS2 -> PSP game, and a potential GC -> GBE game is that you'd need to buy the same game twice for the former.
And yes, that means a PS2 game ported to PSP. I'm not saying that Ridge Racers = Ridge Racer V or Dynasty Warriors Portable = Dynasty Warriors 4.
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