Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

Status
Not open for further replies.
Like via a firmware update?

you would need a different power supply and cooling solution then.

I thought the XsX PSU was shown to be 500w or more? Would a new power supply actually be needed?

I believe the Xbox Series X power supply was rated for a higher watt rating than what was needed so it may have extra capacity

That's what I thought too..

ps5 cooling is guaranteed to be more expensive and therefore better. MS just choose to spend that money elsewhere.

I still don't understand how or why PS5 running at 2.2 is a good idea give the extra money the cooling and power supply is going to chew up, but I am reserving judgement until we see games. Maybe cerney's team are wizards going for better real world performance despite losing the marketing bullet points. Maybe not.

PS5 cooling is more expensive but that doesn't make it better. It just makes it so the machine doesn't melt under heavy load (hopefully)

They are not wizards... they're just trying to do the best that they can with a slightly older and different path than what MS chose with the XsX imo.
 
tenor.gif


The Curse has been lifted, it feels good. Thank you Mod of War Mod of War

giphy.gif





I mean not a threat but like let's fight evil together:lollipop_downcast_sweat:
 
Yeah, I totally get that, I thought going to 2GHz is pushing it and when they announced 2.23GHz I was like 'oh fuck..." knowing that it is going to run hot at those speeds, unless they have some type of magic cooling system (maybe a thermosiphon cooling system?).
Well, there are rumours floating around saying PS5 spent good coin on cooling/fan when someone estimated BOM costs.
 
Mark Cerny mentioned 'our teardown' so I assume PlayStation will do the same as they did with PS4 Pro to show off the cooling solution:



I heard him say that as well, that is when my ears perked up, so it is just a waiting game at this point. I am really curious how everything is laid out and connected in the system.
 
why some people 'really' want to see xsx gpu get overclock up tp 2.2ghz like ps5 that badly?

ms had no need to do that..they already had stronger hardware..almost everything better except for ssd speed...no need to strain the console ..just enjoy all the praise of silent noise and cool box like x1x had later
 
Last edited:
I thought about doing a deep dive into the next generation consoles from the standpoint of a developer with a new thread, but I can´t open threads yet so I posted this here. So, I would like to take you onto a journey where we will investigate certain aspects and also dive into the specifications and what they could mean for game development and the technologies it enables. I apologize in advance for any grammatical / spelling or other error. Remember I am only human and I did very likely make some mistakes (please point them out if you can).

This will be a dive into the specifications of both consoles, so we will compare them and look at what each console can provide in each specific area and what kind of differences we can expect. That being said, this is still very much speculation on my part, since I haven't got to play with either console.

Starting with the CPU:

The processor on both consoles is going to be nearly identical, we don't know every specific detail, yet we can expect them to be very much the same in terms of design and architecture.

Xbox:
The Series X is running an 8 core 16 thread cpu @3,6 ghz with smt enabled and @3,8 ghz with smt disabled.

PlayStation:
The PlayStation 5 is running an 8 core 16 thread cpu @3,5 ghz with a variable frequency (more on the variable frequency later).

We will start by talking about simultaneous multithreading (smt):
Smt is a multithreading technology, which enables the cpu to divide each cpu core into two threads, giving the cpu the option to make each processor core do two simultaneous workloads. This parallelism enables the cpu to get much better efficiency out of the workload distribution and allows for faster workload completion if used correctly. This technology relies heavily on programming efficiency, as programmers must distribute the different workloads amongst the different threads of the cpu. Smt specially will shine very bright in cpu intensive games, which for instance rely on physics-based calculations like the euphoria engine used by Rockstar games. AI in general relies a lot on the cpu since most logic from the ai is calculated and processed by the cpu.

This technology in general then is perfect for OpenWorld games which need a lot of cores for all the different things going on at the same time. The following picture shows the difference between linear load processing and parallel workload processing.

what-is-simultaneous-multithreading-1-638.jpg


The cpu without smt does one task after the other, which results in idle time, visualized by the white spots in the picture. While this is an extreme case there is a lot of idle time in which the processor loses a lot of processing power in which it does nothing but wait for the next instruction (workload). The smt processor on the other hand is filled with way fewer empty spaces indicating a more efficient approach distributing different types of tasks to its threads. So, in short if used correctly the same workload can be calculated much more efficient by spreading it amongst the threads.
Heavily calculative based workloads (physics engine, object streaming, ai, destruction engine, etc..) are benefitting the most from this technology, so we can expect some nice improvements during the next generation.

The processor in our current generation consoles is severely underpowered and is holding back most of the other components. It is also the reason why most games lack good framerates; this is especially true in the Ps4 Pro and Xbox one X. It is the reason why games rarely hit 60 fps, but with the next gen consoles 60 fps is very doable, while game genres like racing could even opt for 120 fps. This is very exciting indeed and will surely enrichen game worlds to the point where in direct comparison the current generation games are very distinguishable from the next generation.

Remember the biggest reason we are not seeing more ai walking in our games is mostly due to lack of cpu power, a good example for this would be Assassin's Creed Unity where the PlayStation 4 and Xbox one really struggle with keeping up for the most part. The frames per second even dip below 20 fps which makes the game very hard to enjoy.
()
Here is some gameplay analysis showing the fps on both consoles for comparison.
The Zen 2 processors in both new consoles will allow developers to put much more ai on the screen at the same time, without having to worry that the frames will dip into the low 20s. Also it could allow for much smarter ai with much more (thinking) operations per second, enabling deeper and smarter logic by the ai.

The Xbox Series X allows smt to be disabled, which in return clocks the cpu an additional 200 mhz higher. This will most likely be used for backwards compatibility or engines which do not yet make use of smt. Also games which do not need a lot of parallel compute, but any additional frequency boost will probably also make us of this (games like Counter Strike Global Offensive).

Now before we jump to the next part, I want to talk a bit about the variable clock frequency of the ps5 and why it is less of a big deal then people think. The cpu is rarely working with 100% load sustained throughout a longer period of time, which gives inefficiency to power consumption and heat. In a closed system such as the gaming consoles, engineers have to take into account that power consumption and heat need to be kept to a minimum, going above the limitations of a cooling inside of a closed system brings enormous problems with it. Some of the early PlayStation 4 adopters experienced this themselves. The apus inside the consoles are usually more power efficient when compared to the more traditional pc design of having the to parts separated. Yet at the same time both components share the same die, having to also rely on the same cooling element. What this means is that a cpu could possibly take away any upclock potential from the gpu, which is much more likely to need the additional clock speeds. While the cpu is not fully utilized or simply is not needed as much, the cpu could slightly underclock itself to give the gpu more overhead. Power consumption goes hand in hand with the clock speeds, so by lowering the cpu clock speed the power consumption is lowered exponentially (the higher the clock speed the more drastic of a power consumption is required, this is never a linear rise) only a few percent should be more then enough to give the gpu the desired maximum clockspeed of 2.23 ghz.
This is AMDs smart shift technology, with which the cpu can help the gpu by distributing more power to the gpu to squeeze out a bit more performance. Simply said, if the cpu is underused it will be using less power in order for the gpu to use more while staying at the same power limit the engineers had originally intended. This will not be a massive jump in power and result only in a few fps in the real world but again every bit helps of course.

Now then to the juicy part comparing the cpus in both consoles, will the 100 mhz higher frequency make any difference in the real world, well yes and no. Let me explain, for benchmark purposes you of course would see a few points going to the cpu of the Xbox Series X, but in real world applications like games, a performance delta of under 3% is not going to make any difference what so ever. So the performance of both consoles in regards to the cpu is essentially the same.


Then on to the next Topic, ssds:

Solid state drives are truly something magical for the next generation as it will simply allow much richer worlds without the hassle that game developers have to go through right now. Let me elaborate by going into detail how a standard hdd works and why it is such a limiting factor in game creation right now.
The main problem with hdds are the way they are working, it is a mechanical drive and as such it has a lag with which it can read data from its disk. Imagine a disk spinning at a certain speed, let's say 5200 times a minute. During the spinning of the disk, each spin represents a chance to read data from the specific area in which the required data is stored. This of course means that there is a certain latency which is required for the head assembly to reach the location of the needed data, this is referred to as seek time.
This in itself is already a problem, because it is time in which the cpu and the rest of the components sit idly and wait for the data to be processed.
1280px-Hard_drive-en.svg.png

Looking at this picture we can understand that the head has to move to the area of the required data in order for it to be obtained. Depending on the location of the stored data the transfer speed is variable. Data on the outer ring could possibly be read faster than the one on the inner ring etc. So, we now have another problem variable read and write speeds, all this amounts to a lot of problems:

  • The hard drives inside of the current gen consoles are about 100 mb/s, this speed is a very limiting factor. With low transfer speed of hdds, assets need to get stored inside of the ram to be accessible much more quickly. This eats an unnecessary amount of ram in the current gen consoles, inefficiency is the keyword here. This is also one of the reasons game worlds can't currently go much bigger than they are, while being as rich as they are. In order to stream in more objects, we simply need faster read and write speeds to the hard drive in order to not rely so much on the ram. Overstepping the speed limitations results in various problems but one very well known effect is the game object pip-in.
    ()
  • Here is a video illustration of that effect, this of course can also be caused by the cpu, though this is just an example. The seek time, this introduces latency in which the other components must wait for the data to be accessed by the hard drive. Combined with the first problem, programmers have to constantly innovate new tricks to bypass this limiting factor inside of the current consoles. The example given by Mark Cerny is very good and a real world current solution to this problem, by storing an asset multiple times on your hard drive in various places (example given, mailbox stored 400 times in different places), this is of course very inefficient in terms of storage utilization and takes away space needlessly. So, it is not just a problem and limiter for game designers but a headache for programmers as well.

Now then with the ssds installed in the next generation consoles we are bypassing all these problems with firstly very high raw speeds of the ssds:
PlayStation 5 = 5,5 gb/s (raw), 8-9 GB/s (compressed);
Xbox series X = 2,4 gb/s (raw), 4,8 GB/s (compressed);
While the Xbox series X is very fast, the PlayStation 5 has an insane amount of raw speed, this is very exciting especially for game designers of open world games, as these if they really utilize the full potential of the ps5 ssd could pull of some very amazing things. Secondly ssds have no seek time as data is stored digital and does not require for any mechanical part to do work, thus the latency issue is also resolved.

But what does this mean for the real world?

Well it isn't just faster loading times, it also allows much bigger game worlds to be loaded, while being much richer. Game objects can be streamed in directly from the ssds, not needing to rely on the ram to handle as much caching for the hard drive, giving a more efficient use of the available ram hence the less required jump in terms of ram capacity (more on that later).
If you want to see what could be possible with the next generation ssds, Star Citizen is a very nice example to look at. This game heavily recommends an ssd to be used for gameplay and if you ever try playing it without one


this is pretty much what is awaiting you. But the ssd requirement at the same time enables amazing game worlds, which not only looks amazing but are stunningly rich given the size they are at.

Comparing the two next gen consoles then, the additional ssd speed of over 2x from the PlayStation 5 will initially not make a huge difference over the Xbox Series X in terms of capabilities. This is due to the fact that developers have to learn to make use of the crazy speeds both consoles will provide. It will take some time before we reach speeds where the Xbox Series X becomes the limiting factor. This is especially true in multiplatform games, where games are always programmed for the weakest platform with any given component, and then if there is enough resources and time it is optimized for the stronger hardware. First party Sony exclusive games could very well show the true potential of the PlayStation ssd, but do not expect multiplatform games to do the same. These will generally probably simply load faster and allow for other slight improvements over the Xbox Series X.

Then lets compare ssd storage to the pc, where it is already being utilized for years. But why is there no real difference between a sata ssd and a nvme ssd albeit the huge difference in speed? The answear is simple, it is due to the fact how data is being transferred, engines right now do not utilize nvme ssd speeds and simply assume that you still use a hdd. Hopefully this will change very soon even on pcs.


The ram:

PlayStation 5: 16gb GDDR6 @448GB/s
Xbox series X: 16gb GDDR6 (10GB @560GB/s, 6GB @ 336 GB/s)

The ram this generation is frankly very unsurprising and not very interesting, I already wrote a little bit about it in another thread, but I will summarize what I wrote. The amount of ram this generation is very lacking in terms of a generational leap. Only 2x the amount while the last generation had a 16x jump in raw capacity, that's not very exciting, yet it is more then enough. In the ssd section I wrote that ssds will enable game assets to be read directly from the drives and do not need to be cached as much in the ram anymore. This will lead to the ram being utilized much better. The bandwidth itself is also more then enough with both consoles, I do not believe that the ram will be the limiting factor in any way.

The GPU:

The teraflop metric has ruled the gpu world for a long time and any slight uplift in teraflops is expected to make a world of a difference, but is this really true?
Well the answer is probably going to upset a lot of people, but I will explain why it is not the unbelievable difference maker that most people think it is. Now before we begin let us look at both gpus:

Xbox Series X: Custom RDNA 2 gpu, 52 CUs @1.825 Ghz resulting in 12.1 teraflops.

PlayStation 5: Custom RDNA 2 gpu, 36 CUs @2,23 Ghz resulting in 10.28 teraflops (variable frequency -> same explanation as the cpu).

On paper the Xbox Series X has the clear advantage with a 17% performance delta between the two at peak PlayStation 5 performance. This is quite a nice lead by Microsoft, but historically speaking it is one of the smallest we have ever had between the two console makers.

Going back to the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, the ps4 has a 1,8 teraflops gpu, while the Xbox One has a 1,3 teraflops gpu. That's more then a 40% difference in power and it is the same story with the Xbox One X and the PlayStation 4 Pro. Xbx = 6 teraflops vs ps4 pro 4,2 teraflops ~ 43% performance difference between the two. While looking at the difference between each of the consoles, we could see some very hefty performance differences, but did these really make so much of a difference that either console was a deal breaker? In my opinion not really, the only thing it did was, that each more performant console had the better-looking multiplatform games, which simply ran a bit better, but it still was the very same game running. The thing game developers usually do with this much of a performance delta is simply adjust the resolution of the game and / or adjust some of the graphics settings to be better.
Going back to this generation then, with a 17% performance delta, can we really expect that much of a difference between the to consoles seeing as it is probably the smallest performance difference in any of the console generations yet. In my opinion no. Multiplatform games will simply look slightly better or run better on Xbox Series X, and load faster on PlayStation 5. But it should in no way shape or form make either of the two consoles a dealbreaker because of some slight performance difference. Simply pick the console to your liking and you will very likely be pleased with your purchase.

Returning to a more technical standpoint and less of a comparative one, RDNA 2 is very exciting as both consoles have very powerful hardware indeed. These gpus should allow developers to further push graphics beyond what we have right now. No matter if you are playing on console or on pc, remember that games are always made with the weakest hardware in mind, you can expect a lot from when games are make from the ground up for the next generation hardware. In combination with technologies like real time ray tracing, games will indeed become much more lifelike. I feel myself coming back to Star Citizen, but I find it is a good representation of what we can expect next generation games to look like as a standard if you will.


I will not be talking about the audio chips yet, as I find I have to little information to go into that topic right now, yet I hope to come back to this one soon.


Sadly, I could not make a new thread and have to post it here, excuse the long post. If anyone want´s to make this into a new thread be my guest.
I really hope you enjoyed this little journey into the next generation.

Thanks for reading.
 
Last edited:
Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:

JasonSchrier said:
So let me be clear. So what I'm hearing from people actually working on these things is that the Xbox is not significantly more powerful than the PlayStation, despite this teraflops number, and that the teraflops -- it might be a useful measure of comparison in some ways, but ultimately it's a theoretical max speed, and there are so many things that could come between where you are trying to get and what you are actually able to do, to the point where the GPU could have X number of flops that it can actually perform, but if the developer isn't able to actually access all of it for whatever reason, then it doesn't even matter, and there are so many other variables here that go into it.

At the end of the day, that is fundamentally the big question -- when Assassin's Creed Kingdom, or whatever it's called, Assassin's Creed Vikings comes out this fall, presumably, corona aside. Presumably it comes out this fall on both Xbox Series X and PlayStation 5 -- which one will it look better on, which one will have a better resolution and better framerate on? I don't think we can know the answer to that question just from the spec sheet, and that's the point I'm making.

This reality is slowly being disseminated after the premature celebrating. Sony's strategy with the tech talk was piss poor though, they'll need to clear the FUD.
 
PS5 has a smaller chip, not sure why they went with 36cu only. But I think it has more sophisticated engineering behind it. Hopefully it will look like a console unlike the Xbox. I think it will be 50$ cheaper too. Both console have their strengths.
 
Last edited:
I thought the XsX PSU was shown to be 500w or more? Would a new power supply actually be needed?



That's what I thought too..



PS5 cooling is more expensive but that doesn't make it better. It just makes it so the machine doesn't melt under heavy load (hopefully)

They are not wizards... they're just trying to do the best that they can with a slightly older and different path than what MS chose with the XsX imo.

power delivery and regulation isn't just the power supply. And cooling is ' better' in the sense that it will dissipate more heat, not in the sense that it is more advanced or quieter. PS5 is going to be generating a lot more heat, so it has to be better. I mean a 10% increase in power for a 2% frequency gain, yeah 2.2 is going to cook compared with 1.8.
 
So the PS5 SSD drive can have a theoretical bandwidth of 20 GB/sec due to its I/O bottleneck removal, that is literally equivalent to PS3 RAM bandwidth with its CELL processor. If that is the case, does that mean that the PS5's OS/UI has no footprint in its 16GDDR6 RAM?

Can XsX somehow reduce the OS footprint further away from the GDDR6 RAM and put it into the SSD?
By what nx said, in theory cause he thinks they are doing it this way, you can move the entire os into cache on the sad and have up too 15.5Gb of ram available for any game
 
Mark Cerny mentioned 'our teardown' so I assume PlayStation will do the same as they did with PS4 Pro to show off the cooling solution:



Cerny has to wait a few weeks for the system can cool down enough as not to give third degree burns when DF visits to take the system apart to show the world.

Kidding!
 
Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:



This reality is slowly being disseminated after the premature celebrating. Sony's strategy with the tech talk was piss poor though, they'll need to clear the FUD.

Add to that:

3t85jp.jpg


Don't expect anything ground-breaking within 2 years, at least from XSX perspective.
 
People saying PS5 is for 2019 and XboxSX is built for the future are silly.
Well, that being said, XSeX is specced higher than 98-99% of the CPU market, PS5 above 90-93%.
Both are sure as hell for the future.

Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:
JS basically states that 2070 and 2080 are the same thing.
Well, while it's too early to predict major losses for Sony (need to see price and... thermals/noise), no, 2070 and 2080 are not the same thing.
 
Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:



This reality is slowly being disseminated after the premature celebrating. Sony's strategy with the tech talk was piss poor though, they'll need to clear the FUD.
The reality is that the SeX is better than the PS5 in almost every way and games will perform best on it. What Jason has been trying to get across is that even though the SeX is superior, the PS5 is still a beast.
Add to that:

3t85jp.jpg


Don't expect anything ground-breaking within 2 years, at least from XSX perspective.
Booty never said that lol.
 
Last edited:
Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:



This reality is slowly being disseminated after the premature celebrating. Sony's strategy with the tech talk was piss poor though, they'll need to clear the FUD.
sorry to piss on your parade but what about this


Also should be noted that the average speed is meaningless. I work with devs and manage them. Optimizing is simple because you just code to ensure the visual data is delivered to certain memory addresses that map to the higher speed memory and things that never need as much map to the lower bandwidth ones. Audio doesn't need high speed.
This is actually a brilliant engineering bit by Microsoft that will be easy to code for by just how memory is addressed. It's basically a few lines of code.
The stable speeds also make optimization easy because the software does not need to request the system ramp up clocks on the CPU versus GPU, etc. The Sony does and it takes more time to optimize and test to get the right balance. They will get there and find easier methods, but I have heard the Xbox is easier to optimize and code out of the box. This likely means the first slew of titles that are multi-platform may look and play significantly better on it in some ways. I've been told it's basically the difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro right now based on the dev kits and what was known about specs (I was never told the specs outright, but have been told the Xbox was the more powerful and overall impressive of the two).
Also expect that the Xbox will be able to do more under the surface than the Sony, like the AI HDR enhancement of past titles and, possibly, the ability to add HDR to streaming video that doesn't have it (hinted at from what I've heard, not confirmed). Not sure if the PS5 has the memory caching ability of the XSX either, but time will tell. It may not have the same kind of resume function because that requires some special work in the OS and with the storage for it to work right from what I've heard.
Right now it looks like the only definite thing the PS5 has over the XSX is that it can load a part of a game in 1-3 seconds faster than the XSX. There are some game devs at big studios that have told me for a few months that many think Sony screwed up the architecture and has been trying to fix it, especially once all the leaks came out from Microsoft.
I have a feeling that the Xbox launch will be very smooth this time and the Sony one may be rough with a lot of problems. Their internal testing apparently is having some heating issues, so there is concern about Sony's own version of the red circle of death. That's one reason why the hardware may not have been show – they don't have the cooling figured out and they may need to throttle below their reported power to prevent the machine from overheating and shutting down.
Microsoft showed its confidence. They brought in outsiders to look at it and use it. Sony has not and had to cobble together a tech presentation after the DF videos dropped. Don't be surprised if the PS5 comes out after the XSX, even accounting for current likely delays.
Posted on Mar 18, 2020 | 8:03 PM
 
The bolded contradict what cerney said. ps5 will spend the majority of its time at 10.28, freq occasionally dipping 1 or 2% when cpu is maxed.

github was rdna1, thermals and power of rdna2 are unknown. If they were the same as rdna1, then yeah you'd be right.
GitHub did not state whether it was RDNA1 or 2.
 
Well, that being said, XSeX is specced higher than 98-99% of the CPU market, PS5 above 90-93%.
Both are sure as hell for the future.


JS basically states that 2070 and 2080 are the same thing.
Well, while it's too early to predict major losses for Sony (need to see price and... thermals/noise), no, 2070 and 2080 are not the same thing.
2070 and 2080 are the same enough to mean absolutely nothing to maybe 99.97% of potential PS buyers.
 
sorry to piss on your parade but what about this


Also should be noted that the average speed is meaningless. I work with devs and manage them. Optimizing is simple because you just code to ensure the visual data is delivered to certain memory addresses that map to the higher speed memory and things that never need as much map to the lower bandwidth ones. Audio doesn't need high speed.
This is actually a brilliant engineering bit by Microsoft that will be easy to code for by just how memory is addressed. It's basically a few lines of code.
The stable speeds also make optimization easy because the software does not need to request the system ramp up clocks on the CPU versus GPU, etc. The Sony does and it takes more time to optimize and test to get the right balance. They will get there and find easier methods, but I have heard the Xbox is easier to optimize and code out of the box. This likely means the first slew of titles that are multi-platform may look and play significantly better on it in some ways. I've been told it's basically the difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro right now based on the dev kits and what was known about specs (I was never told the specs outright, but have been told the Xbox was the more powerful and overall impressive of the two).
Also expect that the Xbox will be able to do more under the surface than the Sony, like the AI HDR enhancement of past titles and, possibly, the ability to add HDR to streaming video that doesn't have it (hinted at from what I've heard, not confirmed). Not sure if the PS5 has the memory caching ability of the XSX either, but time will tell. It may not have the same kind of resume function because that requires some special work in the OS and with the storage for it to work right from what I've heard.
Right now it looks like the only definite thing the PS5 has over the XSX is that it can load a part of a game in 1-3 seconds faster than the XSX. There are some game devs at big studios that have told me for a few months that many think Sony screwed up the architecture and has been trying to fix it, especially once all the leaks came out from Microsoft.
I have a feeling that the Xbox launch will be very smooth this time and the Sony one may be rough with a lot of problems. Their internal testing apparently is having some heating issues, so there is concern about Sony's own version of the red circle of death. That's one reason why the hardware may not have been show – they don't have the cooling figured out and they may need to throttle below their reported power to prevent the machine from overheating and shutting down.
Microsoft showed its confidence. They brought in outsiders to look at it and use it. Sony has not and had to cobble together a tech presentation after the DF videos dropped. Don't be surprised if the PS5 comes out after the XSX, even accounting for current likely delays.
Posted on Mar 18, 2020 | 8:03 PM

Bwaha the fanboy that wrote that signed up that day. Totally anonymous and likely someone with no access to the kit.

So you either believe an industry pro that has been chatting to several world class devs that have been working on both machines, or you listen to an unknown troll comment on a random article, the only voice saying the opposite.

Face it, PS5 likely is faster than XsX and this will come out sooner than you hope!
 
How would Sony use its ultra-fast SSD to free up its CPU/GPU/Ram? Here is what Mark Cerny said at 10:00

(@ 10:00)




It's this intelligent technique that's been used in Horizon Zero but now it got a massive turbo (5.5GB/s raw speed). It not only works at looking in a direction, but even looking up and down! Watch at 18:15




For in-depth explanation, I advice watching this:





Conclusion: 5.5GB/s RAW, 8-9GB/s average compressed speeds (the custom decompressor can output up to 22GB/s theoretically) ARE a game changer.
 
Last edited:
I thought about doing a deep dive into the next generation consoles from the standpoint of a developer with a new thread, but I can´t open threads yet so I posted this here. So, I would like to take you onto a journey where we will investigate certain aspects and also dive into the specifications and what they could mean for game development and the technologies it enables. I apologize in advance for any grammatical / spelling or other error. Remember I am only human and I did very likely make some mistakes (please point them out if you can).

This will be a dive into the specifications of both consoles, so we will compare them and look at what each console can provide in each specific area and what kind of differences we can expect. That being said, this is still very much speculation on my part, since I haven't got to play with either console.

Starting with the CPU:

The processor on both consoles is going to be nearly identical, we don't know every specific detail, yet we can expect them to be very much the same in terms of design and architecture.

Xbox:
The Series X is running an 8 core 16 thread cpu @3,6 ghz with smt enabled and @3,8 ghz with smt disabled.

PlayStation:
The PlayStation 5 is running an 8 core 16 thread cpu @3,5 ghz with a variable frequency (more on the variable frequency later).

We will start by talking about simultaneous multithreading (smt):
Smt is a multithreading technology, which enables the cpu to divide each cpu core into two threads, giving the cpu the option to make each processor core do two simultaneous workloads. This parallelism enables the cpu to get much better efficiency out of the workload distribution and allows for faster workload completion if used correctly. This technology relies heavily on programming efficiency, as programmers must distribute the different workloads amongst the different threads of the cpu. Smt specially will shine very bright in cpu intensive games, which for instance rely on physics-based calculations like the euphoria engine used by Rockstar games. AI in general relies a lot on the cpu since most logic from the ai is calculated and processed by the cpu.

This technology in general then is perfect for OpenWorld games which need a lot of cores for all the different things going on at the same time. The following picture shows the difference between linear load processing and parallel workload processing.

what-is-simultaneous-multithreading-1-638.jpg


The cpu without smt does one task after the other, which results in idle time, visualized by the white spots in the picture. While this is an extreme case there is a lot of idle time in which the processor loses a lot of processing power in which it does nothing but wait for the next instruction (workload). The smt processor on the other hand is filled with way fewer empty spaces indicating a more efficient approach distributing different types of tasks to its threads. So, in short if used correctly the same workload can be calculated much more efficient by spreading it amongst the threads.
Heavily calculative based workloads (physics engine, object streaming, ai, destruction engine, etc..) are benefitting the most from this technology, so we can expect some nice improvements during the next generation.

The processor in our current generation consoles is severely underpowered and is holding back most of the other components. It is also the reason why most games lack good framerates; this is especially true in the Ps4 Pro and Xbox one X. It is the reason why games rarely hit 60 fps, but with the next gen consoles 60 fps is very doable, while game genres like racing could even opt for 120 fps. This is very exciting indeed and will surely enrichen game worlds to the point where in direct comparison the current generation games are very distinguishable from the next generation.

Remember the biggest reason we are not seeing more ai walking in our games is mostly due to lack of cpu power, a good example for this would be Assassin's Creed Unity where the PlayStation 4 and Xbox one really struggle with keeping up for the most part. The frames per second even dip below 20 fps which makes the game very hard to enjoy.
()
Here is some gameplay analysis showing the fps on both consoles for comparison.
The Zen 2 processors in both new consoles will allow developers to put much more ai on the screen at the same time, without having to worry that the frames will dip into the low 20s. Also it could allow for much smarter ai with much more (thinking) operations per second, enabling deeper and smarter logic by the ai.

The Xbox Series X allows smt to be disabled, which in return clocks the cpu an additional 200 mhz higher. This will most likely be used for backwards compatibility or engines which do not yet make use of smt. Also games which do not need a lot of parallel compute, but any additional frequency boost will probably also make us of this (games like Counter Strike Global Offensive).

Now before we jump to the next part, I want to talk a bit about the variable clock frequency of the ps5 and why it is less of a big deal then people think. The cpu is rarely working with 100% load sustained throughout a longer period of time, which gives inefficiency to power consumption and heat. In a closed system such as the gaming consoles, engineers have to take into account that power consumption and heat need to be kept to a minimum, going above the limitations of a cooling inside of a closed system brings enormous problems with it. Some of the early PlayStation 4 adopters experienced this themselves. The apus inside the consoles are usually more power efficient when compared to the more traditional pc design of having the to parts separated. Yet at the same time both components share the same die, having to also rely on the same cooling element. What this means is that a cpu could possibly take away any upclock potential from the gpu, which is much more likely to need the additional clock speeds. While the cpu is not fully utilized or simply is not needed as much, the cpu could slightly underclock itself to give the gpu more overhead. Power consumption goes hand in hand with the clock speeds, so by lowering the cpu clock speed the power consumption is lowered exponentially (the higher the clock speed the more drastic of a power consumption is required, this is never a linear rise) only a few percent should be more then enough to give the gpu the desired maximum clockspeed of 2.23 ghz.
This is AMDs smart shift technology, with which the cpu can help the gpu by distributing more power to the gpu to squeeze out a bit more performance. Simply said, if the cpu is underused it will be using less power in order for the gpu to use more while staying at the same power limit the engineers had originally intended. This will not be a massive jump in power and result only in a few fps in the real world but again every bit helps of course.

Now then to the juicy part comparing the cpus in both consoles, will the 100 mhz higher frequency make any difference in the real world, well yes and no. Let me explain, for benchmark purposes you of course would see a few points going to the cpu of the Xbox Series X, but in real world applications like games, a performance delta of under 3% is not going to make any difference what so ever. So the performance of both consoles in regards to the cpu is essentially the same.


Then on to the next Topic, ssds:

Solid state drives are truly something magical for the next generation as it will simply allow much richer worlds without the hassle that game developers have to go through right now. Let me elaborate by going into detail how a standard hdd works and why it is such a limiting factor in game creation right now.
The main problem with hdds are the way they are working, it is a mechanical drive and as such it has a lag with which it can read data from its disk. Imagine a disk spinning at a certain speed, let's say 5200 times a minute. During the spinning of the disk, each spin represents a chance to read data from the specific area in which the required data is stored. This of course means that there is a certain latency which is required for the head assembly to reach the location of the needed data, this is referred to as seek time.
This in itself is already a problem, because it is time in which the cpu and the rest of the components sit idly and wait for the data to be processed.
1280px-Hard_drive-en.svg.png

Looking at this picture we can understand that the head has to move to the area of the required data in order for it to be obtained. Depending on the location of the stored data the transfer speed is variable. Data on the outer ring could possibly be read faster than the one on the inner ring etc. So, we now have another problem variable read and write speeds, all this amounts to a lot of problems:

  • The hard drives inside of the current gen consoles are about 100 mb/s, this speed is a very limiting factor. With low transfer speed of hdds, assets need to get stored inside of the ram to be accessible much more quickly. This eats an unnecessary amount of ram in the current gen consoles, inefficiency is the keyword here. This is also one of the reasons game worlds can't currently go much bigger than they are, while being as rich as they are. In order to stream in more objects, we simply need faster read and write speeds to the hard drive in order to not rely so much on the ram. Overstepping the speed limitations results in various problems but one very well known effect is the game object pip-in.
    ()
  • Here is a video illustration of that effect, this of course can also be caused by the cpu, though this is just an example. The seek time, this introduces latency in which the other components must wait for the data to be accessed by the hard drive. Combined with the first problem, programmers have to constantly innovate new tricks to bypass this limiting factor inside of the current consoles. The example given by Mark Cerny is very good and a real world current solution to this problem, by storing an asset multiple times on your hard drive in various places (example given, mailbox stored 400 times in different places), this is of course very inefficient in terms of storage utilization and takes away space needlessly. So, it is not just a problem and limiter for game designers but a headache for programmers as well.

Now then with the ssds installed in the next generation consoles we are bypassing all these problems with firstly very high raw speeds of the ssds:
PlayStation 5 = 5,5 gb/s (raw), 8-9 GB/s (compressed);
Xbox series X = 2,4 gb/s (raw), 4,8 GB/s (compressed);
While the Xbox series X is very fast, the PlayStation 5 has an insane amount of raw speed, this is very exciting especially for game designers of open world games, as these if they really utilize the full potential of the ps5 ssd could pull of some very amazing things. Secondly ssds have no seek time as data is stored digital and does not require for any mechanical part to do work, thus the latency issue is also resolved.

But what does this mean for the real world?

Well it isn't just faster loading times, it also allows much bigger game worlds to be loaded, while being much richer. Game objects can be streamed in directly from the ssds, not needing to rely on the ram to handle as much caching for the hard drive, giving a more efficient use of the available ram hence the less required jump in terms of ram capacity (more on that later).
If you want to see what could be possible with the next generation ssds, Star Citizen is a very nice example to look at. This game heavily recommends an ssd to be used for gameplay and if you ever try playing it without one


this is pretty much what is awaiting you. But the ssd requirement at the same time enables amazing game worlds, which not only looks amazing but are stunningly rich given the size they are at.

Comparing the two next gen consoles then, the additional ssd speed of over 2x from the PlayStation 5 will initially not make a huge difference over the Xbox Series X in terms of capabilities. This is due to the fact that developers have to learn to make use of the crazy speeds both consoles will provide. It will take some time before we reach speeds where the Xbox Series X becomes the limiting factor. This is especially true in multiplatform games, where games are always programmed for the weakest platform with any given component, and then if there is enough resources and time it is optimized for the stronger hardware. First party Sony exclusive games could very well show the true potential of the PlayStation ssd, but do not expect multiplatform games to do the same. These will generally probably simply load faster and allow for other slight improvements over the Xbox Series X.

Then lets compare ssd storage to the pc, where it is already being utilized for years. But why is there no real difference between a sata ssd and a nvme ssd albeit the huge difference in speed? The answear is simple, it is due to the fact how data is being transferred, engines right now do not utilize nvme ssd speeds and simply assume that you still use a hdd. Hopefully this will change very soon even on pcs.


The ram:

PlayStation 5: 16gb GDDR6 @448GB/s
Xbox series X: 16gb GDDR6 (10GB @560GB/s, 6GB @ 336 GB/s)

The ram this generation is frankly very unsurprising and not very interesting, I already wrote a little bit about it in another thread, but I will summarize what I wrote. The amount of ram this generation is very lacking in terms of a generational leap. Only 2x the amount while the last generation had a 16x jump in raw capacity, that's not very exciting, yet it is more then enough. In the ssd section I wrote that ssds will enable game assets to be read directly from the drives and do not need to be cached as much in the ram anymore. This will lead to the ram being utilized much better. The bandwidth itself is also more then enough with both consoles, I do not believe that the ram will be the limiting factor in any way.

The GPU:

The teraflop metric has ruled the gpu world for a long time and any slight uplift in teraflops is expected to make a world of a difference, but is this really true?
Well the answer is probably going to upset a lot of people, but I will explain why it is not the unbelievable difference maker that most people think it is. Now before we begin let us look at both gpus:

Xbox Series X: Custom RDNA 2 gpu, 52 CUs @1.825 Ghz resulting in 12.1 teraflops.

PlayStation 5: Custom RDNA 2 gpu, 36 CUs @2,23 Ghz resulting in 10.28 teraflops (variable frequency -> same explanation as the cpu).

On paper the Xbox Series X has the clear advantage with a 17% performance delta between the two at peak PlayStation 5 performance. This is quite a nice lead by Microsoft, but historically speaking it is one of the smallest we have ever had between the two console makers.

Going back to the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, the ps4 has a 1,8 teraflops gpu, while the Xbox One has a 1,3 teraflops gpu. That's more then a 40% difference in power and it is the same story with the Xbox One X and the PlayStation 4 Pro. Xbx = 6 teraflops vs ps4 pro 4,2 teraflops ~ 43% performance difference between the two. While looking at the difference between each of the consoles, we could see some very hefty performance differences, but did these really make so much of a difference that either console was a deal breaker? In my opinion not really, the only thing it did was, that each more performant console had the better-looking multiplatform games, which simply ran a bit better, but it still was the very same game running. The thing game developers usually do with this much of a performance delta is simply adjust the resolution of the game and / or adjust some of the graphics settings to be better.
Going back to this generation then, with a 17% performance delta, can we really expect that much of a difference between the to consoles seeing as it is probably the smallest performance difference in any of the console generations yet. In my opinion no. Multiplatform games will simply look slightly better or run better on Xbox Series X, and load faster on PlayStation 5. But it should in no way shape or form make either of the two consoles a dealbreaker because of some slight performance difference. Simply pick the console to your liking and you will very likely be pleased with your purchase.

Returning to a more technical standpoint and less of a comparative one, RDNA 2 is very exciting as both consoles have very powerful hardware indeed. These gpus should allow developers to further push graphics beyond what we have right now. No matter if you are playing on console or on pc, remember that games are always made with the weakest hardware in mind, you can expect a lot from when games are make from the ground up for the next generation hardware. In combination with technologies like real time ray tracing, games will indeed become much more lifelike. I feel myself coming back to Star Citizen, but I find it is a good representation of what we can expect next generation games to look like as a standard if you will.


I will not be talking about the audio chips yet, as I find I have to little information to go into that topic right now, yet I hope to come back to this one soon.


Sadly, I could not make a new thread and have to post it here, excuse the long post. If anyone want´s to make this into a new thread be my guest.
I really hope you enjoyed this little journey into the next generation.

Thanks for reading.

The GPU part should be more than obvious, yet to some people it seems like it will be a gigantic thing. VRS is the biggest question mark at this point, since we are not certain that PS5 has it, but being integrated in RDNA2 Sony should have stright up said "no, we don't wont it" which seems pretty stupid. Let's see.
 
sorry to piss on your parade but what about this


Also should be noted that the average speed is meaningless. I work with devs and manage them. Optimizing is simple because you just code to ensure the visual data is delivered to certain memory addresses that map to the higher speed memory and things that never need as much map to the lower bandwidth ones. Audio doesn't need high speed.
This is actually a brilliant engineering bit by Microsoft that will be easy to code for by just how memory is addressed. It's basically a few lines of code.
The stable speeds also make optimization easy because the software does not need to request the system ramp up clocks on the CPU versus GPU, etc. The Sony does and it takes more time to optimize and test to get the right balance. They will get there and find easier methods, but I have heard the Xbox is easier to optimize and code out of the box. This likely means the first slew of titles that are multi-platform may look and play significantly better on it in some ways. I've been told it's basically the difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro right now based on the dev kits and what was known about specs (I was never told the specs outright, but have been told the Xbox was the more powerful and overall impressive of the two).
Also expect that the Xbox will be able to do more under the surface than the Sony, like the AI HDR enhancement of past titles and, possibly, the ability to add HDR to streaming video that doesn't have it (hinted at from what I've heard, not confirmed). Not sure if the PS5 has the memory caching ability of the XSX either, but time will tell. It may not have the same kind of resume function because that requires some special work in the OS and with the storage for it to work right from what I've heard.
Right now it looks like the only definite thing the PS5 has over the XSX is that it can load a part of a game in 1-3 seconds faster than the XSX. There are some game devs at big studios that have told me for a few months that many think Sony screwed up the architecture and has been trying to fix it, especially once all the leaks came out from Microsoft.
I have a feeling that the Xbox launch will be very smooth this time and the Sony one may be rough with a lot of problems. Their internal testing apparently is having some heating issues, so there is concern about Sony's own version of the red circle of death. That's one reason why the hardware may not have been show – they don't have the cooling figured out and they may need to throttle below their reported power to prevent the machine from overheating and shutting down.
Microsoft showed its confidence. They brought in outsiders to look at it and use it. Sony has not and had to cobble together a tech presentation after the DF videos dropped. Don't be surprised if the PS5 comes out after the XSX, even accounting for current likely delays.
Posted on Mar 18, 2020 | 8:03 PM

who is that?
 
WTF is this?


LOL
It's one of the sites that should have been banned ages ago on NeoGAF.
 
Well, that being said, XSeX is specced higher than 98-99% of the CPU market, PS5 above 90-93%.
Both are sure as hell for the future.


JS basically states that 2070 and 2080 are the same thing.
Well, while it's too early to predict major losses for Sony (need to see price and... thermals/noise), no, 2070 and 2080 are not the same thing.

Really dumb take.

2070 and 2080 are the same GPU family each with the exact same components but with one specced lower than the other in each feature (transistors, clock speed, memory, memory speed etc) . Hence their tflops figures dictate exactly that and can be used to judge their performance.

PS5 and XsX are two completely separate designs each with heavily customised GPUs (PS5's seems more custom) with totally different custom engines and tech (does Series X even have SmartShift?), and different memory solutions so flops comparisons between the two are meaningless, which has been echoed by every single dev that is actually working on them.

But feel free to listen to the fanboys trying to convince everyone 'XsX is more powerful, cos tflops iz higher'. That lie will soon be exposed.
 
Last edited:
Just for fun, Challenger Demon 840hp with semi slicks vs Nissan GT-R 600hp with regular tires (watch all rounds)




They stop before the turn so Demon doesn't hit the wall or go off track or smash the GT-R.

Teraflops = Horespower

It's not the whole story.
 
power delivery and regulation isn't just the power supply. And cooling is ' better' in the sense that it will dissipate more heat, not in the sense that it is more advanced or quieter. PS5 is going to be generating a lot more heat, so it has to be better. I mean a 10% increase in power for a 2% frequency gain, yeah 2.2 is going to cook compared with 1.8.
If they somehow manage to stay within 2-3% performance loss of the total power with variable frequency while maintaining good thermals and not making too much noise then I will be very impressed.
 
Last edited:
Whats your Personal opinion about ps5 specs so far? I am atleast a little bit disappointed

I was VERY disappointed, but if you check my previous post about how SSD streaming can compensate for the gap, it's really not huge. I'll be posting a comparison between 2080 and 2080ti, the difference is neglectable, not to mention that devs usual optimize for the lesser model for a balance game on both.

EDIT: This

 
Last edited:
The reality is that the SeX is better than the PS5 in almost every way and games will perform best on it.

This is just stupid.... Elderscrolls may be a better experience due to the load times.

Different platforms give different gaming experiences. Not everything is go go go at 120 fps..

You console warriors make a war out of something people who like to just play games have already moved on from.

Nice to see Sony stay with the traditional console concept.
 
The bolded contradict what cerney said. ps5 will spend the majority of its time at 10.28, freq occasionally dipping 1 or 2% when cpu is maxed.

github was rdna1, thermals and power of rdna2 are unknown. If they were the same as rdna1, then yeah you'd be right.

If it's only dropping 1-2% why would it even be mentioned as variable? That's nothing and wouldn't impact anything.
 
I was VERY disappointed, but if you check my previous post about how SSD streaming can compensate for the gap, it's really not huge. I'll be posting a comparison between 2080 and 2080ti, the difference is neglectable, not to mention that devs usual optimize for the lesser model for a balance game on both.
For me its same as you
As i watched the live Stream and at the moment cerny mentioned 36 cu's i would close the stream... I was highly disappointed

But yet i understand the things and the advantages/disadvantages from each System a little better
 
2070 and 2080 are the same GPU family each with the exact same components but with one specced lower than the other in each feature (transistors, clock speed, memory, memory speed etc) . Hence their tflops figures dictate exactly that and can be used to judge their performance.

PS5 and XsX are two completely separate designs

Yeah, completely different designs.
RDNA2 and, cough, RDNA2.



Come on guys...

does Series X even have SmartShift?
SmartShift is AMD tech, not Sony's. Does bigger chip running at lower clock even need to "smart shift"?
No, it doesn't.

As for fanboys, I own PS3 and PS4. Never owned an Xbox (and whether I might be tempted switch to it, will depend on noise/heat and price of PS5 and XSex).
 
This is just stupid.... Elderscrolls may be a better experience due to the load times.

Different platforms give different gaming experiences. Not everything is go go go at 120 fps..

You console warriors make a war out of something people who like to just play games have already moved on from.

Nice to see Sony stay with the traditional console concept.

But they didn't?

They went full on eccentric bespoke on the CPU, GPU, SSD, and Sound...

And we have yet to see the form factor for this thing.

It could very well end up looking similar to the XsX for all we know.

Or it could be a big fat machine like the original VCR XBO?

We will have to wait and see.
 
Bwaha the fanboy that wrote that signed up that day. Totally anonymous and likely someone with no access to the kit.

So you either believe an industry pro that has been chatting to several world class devs that have been working on both machines, or you listen to an unknown troll comment on a random article, the only voice saying the opposite.

Face it, PS5 likely is faster than XsX and this will come out sooner than you hope!

The only thing PS5 is faster at is self combusting.
 
This is just stupid.... Elderscrolls may be a better experience due to the load times.

Different platforms give different gaming experiences. Not everything is go go go at 120 fps..

You console warriors make a war out of something people who like to just play games have already moved on from.

Nice to see Sony stay with the traditional console concept.
It's not a war, it's just facts. PS5 will still be a great console and have great exclusives. One console was always going to be better than the other, that's how it's always been.
It's very possible they were aiming for different price points. It'll be interesting to see how much Sony's SSD and cooling cost.
 
Last edited:
So by the logic of some of you this is the fastest and best console this gen right SMH
2000867392.jpeg


Like you can't donwplay the SSD in the PS5, its a super fast and much much faster than the one in the X but its not gonna change the way the games look. Its not gonna close the power gap betwen the 2 consoles as some are hoping. Wish Sony would have just put a slower ssd in favour of stronger gpu and faster ram or both the same ssd with stronger gpu and faster ram.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom