Reindeer
Member
Indeed. But PS2 also had 100+ million install base and we saw how that turned out (I know it's not exactly apples to apples). Sony will be smart enough not to price themselves out again.
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The latter.
The issue with high clocks on 7nm and smaller is heat density more than absolute heat generation and even with cooling solutions that can shift that amount of heat they can't shift it when that level of heat is isolated to a small area.
The only way 2GHz happens on a console Apu is if AMD have made architectural enhancements to make it clock higher because newer nodes are not giving automatic clock speed gains and are often having clock speed regressions (see Intel 10nm Vs 14nm). On top of that it also needs to hit that clock speed easily and not destroy the power budget which frankly I don't see happening.
Stuart360
Member
PS5 will win next gen, even if these rumours are true. Sony is simply more popular worldwide. And regardless of what fanboys think, neither Sony or Microsoft think the way they do. Microsoft, although they would never publicly admit it, will be just hoping for a successful console and a bit of a rebound from the XB1. If you offered them 70mil sales right now, they would probably snap your hand off imo. PS5 will still go on to sell 100mil.
Raw console sales arent as important as they used to be, not with licenses and services making up a huge amount of revenue now.
I hope Xbox reach the 60-70mil threshold, and PS5 hits 100mil, then it shows a healthy industry and at least one more generation coming up.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Also wasnt back compat unless you count that emotion engine.
BattleScar
Member
Oh, so now we're reading far too much into some random PR tweets. What the fuck is going on?
Meanwhile Mike Ybarra hits the nail on the head. The conversation around console performance is twisted by fans of both sides to suit their needs.
And yet the PlayStation 3 ended up selling 80+ million units, and ultimately outsold the Xbox 360 anyway. The PlayStation brand is a juggernaut, no matter which way you slice it.
Meanwhile Mike Ybarra hits the nail on the head. The conversation around console performance is twisted by fans of both sides to suit their needs.
And yet the PlayStation 3 ended up selling 80+ million units, and ultimately outsold the Xbox 360 anyway. The PlayStation brand is a juggernaut, no matter which way you slice it.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Reindeer
Member
Yes, this is why I said it's not exactly apples to apples. Bringing your PS4 games with you will be a major factor on getting the users back. There's also those 10+ million selling exclusives that most certainly will have sequels on PS5. Sony are definitely positioned well to dominate next gen.
TLZ
Banned
SportsFan581
Member
Dory16
Banned
RT and VRS on board of an AMD GPU strongly suggests RDNA2
Rightisright
Banned
Who are the insiders who would have had hands on with both dev kits that have said Ps5 is more powerful?
Everyone was quoting Tom Warren as a legit source when he was saying they would be similar spec, but after his new tweet saying he thinks XSX will be more powerful he suddenly doesn't know shit.
Don't invest too much of yourself in the possible specs of either console, as it will only lead to a letdown.
I think MS will be more powerful, but if it isn't, I couldn't give a toss.
TLZ
Banned
That's PR for you. I couldn't last more than 5 months doing it. Always gotta shine them shoes, no matter what. I felt very conflicted and torn inside.
It would only work for me if I truly believed in what I was promoting.
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Reindeer
Member
He said it's a custom RDNA chip with some RDNA2 features.
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PocoJoe
Banned
That doesnt sound right, I would argue that it would more likely be the "casuals" whom buy consoles because of specs(if graphics are epic on one and bad on another, or have cool gimmick like wii ) and how they are marketed, rather than "real gamers"
I know many gamers and none of them have ever bought a system just because it is more powerful.
Many things are more important:
price vs performance vs "puplic image (it is hard to sell more expensive system if it is weaker or doesnt market how it is better if it is stronger)
Brand (people like to stick with one brand they like, unless they fuck up really really bad)
Their favourite game series (Aka those that like nintendo ips, sony ips and xbox games)
Their friends (if everybody owns playstation, it would be social suicide to get xbox on next gen if others get ps5)
do they like symmetrical sticks or weird xbox placement
And most important thing: XBOX as a brand is weakling vs Playstation outside of US/UK.
if you think that many people think "hmm, should I get that new playstation or that new xbox, hard to choose", it wont be like that for many many people. They just dont see xbox as a serious option.
Xbox can be more powerful but it doesnt matter if people dont see it as serious competitor with seriously good set of games and ecosystem,
If xbox would have what it takes to fight equally vs playstation, it would not have lost this gen so badly because it have been cheaper for years and years. They fucked up the launch, but it is not everything.
Maybe this is an US thing, but I have never ever met any serious gamer that would switch from playstation to xbox or even considered that between gens, I have met few that went from xbox to playstation.
To me it sounds kind of crazy that this would be common thing. In my world people just like one system and stick with it gen after gen, and maybe buy another system when it gets cheaper as their secondary system
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Dory16
Banned
You're right, it's Sony's destiny and birth right to sell 100 mil consoles everytime they try.
Dory16
Banned
Not impossible. Can't wait for official reveals.
SmokSmog
Member
AMD making 80cus monster ?
AMD’s High-End ‘Radeon RX’ Navi 21 GPU Rumors: Twice As Fast as Navi 10, 505mm2 Die Size, Faster GDDR6 Memory
wccftech.com
AMD’s High-End ‘Radeon RX’ Navi 21 GPU Rumors: Twice As Fast as Navi 10, 505mm2 Die Size, Faster GDDR6 Memory
AMD's High-End 'Radeon RX' Navi 21 GPU Rumors: Twice As Fast As Navi 10, 505mm2 Die Size, Faster GDDR6 Memory
AMD's Navi 21 GPU based high-end Radeon RX graphics cards are rumored to be twice as fast as Navi 10 'RX 5700 XT' and feature GDDR6 memory.
wccftech.com
Stuart360
Member
Even Microsoft themselves wont be thinking they can 'win' next gen, and they dont need to. Playstation has only missed 100mil sales once out of 4 attempts. Imo the very best Microsoft could hope for next gen is a 360/PS3 situation, but after all the negativity surrounding the XB1 this gen, i think it will be more like 60-70mil Xbox and 100+mil PS5.
TLZ
Banned
Exactly
Have to stay true to myself. Have to feel good talking to the man in the mirror.
ruvikx
Banned
When I was running through Crookback Bog on the ps4 in the Witcher 3 & it was a stutter fest of massive proportions (that was me in 2016 on the base machine), I had to have a look at what the "other side" was doing. It was much of the same. My only thought then was "goddamn I wish these consoles were way more powerful". The mid-gen refresh machines fixed some of those issues, but that's an expensive price to pay for something which should have been there since minute one (better cpu, gpu & memory).
That small personal gaming anecdote is why power conversations are important, i.e. because it's not just a dick measuring contest between shameless warriors, no, it translates into actual real life experiences when a machine is underpowered. I would have happily paid 500 dollars + (or the equivalent here) in 2013 to get a higher spec ps4.
demigod
Member
BattleScar
Member
What are you talking about?
Nobody said this.
Sony are simply very good at designing and selling video game consoles. The best the industry has ever seen actually. Its not a guarantee that the PS5 will sell well, but Sony have cultivated a powerful brand, and that brand has value in the market. This is undeniable.
Dory16
Banned
The market is changing massively. Stadia and Xcloud will convince a least a few people to not buy consoles. Plus people don't buy a product just because it's Sony's. Ask Apple how the iphone sales are going.
Reindeer
Member
I could see Microsoft selling 70-80 million. I could see a lot of PlayStation owners buying a cheaper Lockhart (if it's priced right) to play Microsoft exclusives. If they manage to do this then it will be a huge success for them.
Stuart360
Member
The market isnt changing at all. Stadia is dead on arrival, and even Phil is saying Xcloud is nothing more than another option for consumers and that local hardware will always be better. XSX and PS5 will still sell a combined 170+mil, just like this gen (by the time the gen ends), and last gen.
BattleScar
Member
Their sales are slowing significantly for the first time in well over a decade. And yet they're still performing exceptionally financially and control the lion's share (around 60% afaik) of the smartphone market's profits.
Dory16
Banned
Ok Nastradamus. I wonder why they don't just take you in the investor meetings to guarantee them dividends. You've got all the future sales numbers down across the industry.
Stuart360
Member
Its only my opinion, you dont have to agree with it, or like it.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Little bit different.
From what I've read it's not that Apple is losing customers it's that they are upgrading less frequently.
Stadia hasn't convinced anyone of anything so far except it's not ready in any capacity.
Insane Metal
Member
Which also probably means no EUV, but instead DUV. I expect these consoles to be very power hungry.
Rightisright
Banned
All the talk of HBM memory and ReRam has kinda dried up.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Anyone got any idea what layout the components and cooling could be for XSX? I really would like to see what those with the skills think it might look like inside that tiny case. Can't be easy to cool 12TF/3.5GHz/16GB of fast GDDR6 in such a tight space.
Insane Metal
Member
I mean, apart from XBox fans, pretty much everyone knows this. Phil Spencer isn't some savior or anything. He's just another dude. And a PR dude.
Aceofspades
Banned
This came up to me:
Maybe Oberion chip was simply Sony's attempt to achieve perfect BC for PS4 different modes.
BC1: PS4 normal
BC2: PRO normal
The extreme clocked 36CUs was simply trying to experiment with a 36CU chip and achieve an enhanced BC with PRO natively so :
2.0 Ghz , 9.4TF (exactly double PRO 4.2) is to achieve native BC for PRO higher than 4k gaming.
So Oberion was simply Sony's attempt for perfect emulation for PS4 different modes not PS5 final silicon which would have more than 36CUs.
Hasn't been there rumors of Sony's trying hard to emulate PS4 perfectly? I think that was it!!
Its a speculation on my part , me trying to connect the dots.
Maybe Oberion chip was simply Sony's attempt to achieve perfect BC for PS4 different modes.
BC1: PS4 normal
BC2: PRO normal
The extreme clocked 36CUs was simply trying to experiment with a 36CU chip and achieve an enhanced BC with PRO natively so :
2.0 Ghz , 9.4TF (exactly double PRO 4.2) is to achieve native BC for PRO higher than 4k gaming.
So Oberion was simply Sony's attempt for perfect emulation for PS4 different modes not PS5 final silicon which would have more than 36CUs.
Hasn't been there rumors of Sony's trying hard to emulate PS4 perfectly? I think that was it!!
Its a speculation on my part , me trying to connect the dots.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
5500XT uses around 125 Watts and the 5700XT uses around 205 Watts. That is a power increase of less than 70% but the 5700XT is around 85% faster. That means the perf/watt of the launch 5700XT is greater than the 5500XT despite the latter having newer silicon on a more mature node.
2GHz will not happen in a realistic perf/watt envelop so stop talking nonsense.
The only realistic way to make it is 56-60 active CUs running at low clocks with a low voltage.
XcloudTimdog
Banned
Roasted lol, he said he agreed. I mean he is the one afterall behind the design to make 2013 never happen again. All everyone did was talk about resolution. Boy tho, did he take it to another level with Xbox SX the way it looksOuch ..ouch ouch OUCH . Tim Dogg roasted by an ex MS executive
Lone Wolf
Member
You don’t have to like Xbox, but they are nothing like 2013.
BattleScar
Member
It was always wishful thinking.
Rightisright
Banned
So is there any advantage of frequency over Cu's to get your power? Would Ray tracing perform better on a higher clock, or is it CU reliant?
Some Have said pixel fill rate is better. What does this mean for real world graphics?
Some Have said pixel fill rate is better. What does this mean for real world graphics?
Gamernyc78
Banned
Of course not thy were forced to change or crumble by the competition. The inside philosophy might still be the same though just dormant and held back due to it not working out previously.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Vapor chamber 2.0 is my guess
Well that is a given. But how will it all be arranged inside the case?
Self High Five
Member
How many Playstation gamers are buying Xbox SADE, which is usually the cheapest console sale wise, on the market right now?
Playstation & Xbox share vast majority the same library. Most console gamers are gonna pick one up, and that's it.
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PS4 PRO BC enhanced: 36CU 2ghz (~2x PS4 PRO)
XcloudTimdog
Banned
Seems like they are building bc in via hardware and only for ps4. Could be to this day Xbox BC software emulation is paying off to the day
Aceofspades
Banned
Yes, that's what I'm saying. In the end Sony is simply experimenting with BC with Oberion chip.
SportsFan581
Member
Xbox SAD's entire purpose was to exist and nothing more. LOL It was MS's way of getting a no-disk console out there before next-gen. Now it's not something that the gaming press can rip apart, it's just a lower cost model. If they waited until next gen the story would have been, MS is trying to kill retailers! A disk drive just doesn't make enough of a price difference to make it worthwhile, if that's the only change.
Reindeer
Member
There were no compelling high quality exclusives that would make them purchase an Xbox, it's how "Xbox has no games" meme was born. I'm already seeing a number of PlayStation fanboys saying they will buy Xbox to play Senua's Saga. Content is King and I think this time Microsoft will have some really attractive must play games. I could of course be wrong and they could fail again with 40 million consoles sold, but I really don't think that will be the case.
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