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[Negotiator]

I'm rooting for the underdog here but I press doubt on this headline, Nvidia hasn't felt the need to drop 7nm Ampere to compete with this yet, just spec bumps and price drops on 12nm FFN. If I were to guess how this goes it's that AMD continues to drive value through competition through 2019 but Ampere bounds away on total performance again, unless RDNA 2.0 has another massive IPC pull in the cards.

Some people speculate that Ampere 7nm will be able to hit 3 GHz. Insane if true!

AMD will definitely need tile-based rendering if they want to close the IPC gap with nVidia, there's no way around it. I don't understand why they don't do it.

 

[SonGoku]

LordOfChaos What are your thoughts on the 2080TI full length vapor chamber?
The card design is pretty slim even though it pulls 300W+ during load, seems like a perfect fit for consoles pushing 200W+

Also these console APUs would've been design complete last year I'd imagine and far too late to switch to EUV.

7nm EUV spec was finalized in 2018 (3 years in advance), plenty of time for consoles to design for 7nm EUV from the start, RDNA2 is 7nm EUV as well
As per Cerny words engeneering takes 4 years

I'll be happy to eat crow but I think you're 100% wrong on this. TSMC has/is producing CPU and GPUs at 7 nm for AMD , TSMC has already made 7nm chips - eg Apple A12 (late 2018) , Samsung hasn't made a single 7 nm chip yet ..

Both are looking good:

TSMC's second-generation 7nm process using extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography will be ready for mass production as early as this June, according to a recent report.

Samsung Electronics to Begin Mass Production of 7 nm EVU Chips in June

Samsung Electronics will start mass production of 7 nanometer (nm) extreme ultraviolet (EUV) chips in June, the first time in the global semiconductor industry

www.businesskorea.co.kr

Samsung Electronics will start mass production of 7 nanometer (nm) extreme ultraviolet (EUV) chips in June, the first time in the global semiconductor industry.

Kim Ki-nam, vice chairman of Samsung Electronics, expressed confidence at a general shareholders meeting last month that the company would be able to mass-produce 7 nm EUV products ahead of its rivals. But there is a possibility that TSMS becomes the first company to mass produce 7 nm EUV chips by a few days.

Nvidia's move is likely to determine the fates of companies in the foundry industry in the future. Currently known 7 nm EUV customers include Apple, Samsung Electronics's Mobile Division, Qualcomm, Huawei and AMD, and there are not many fabless companies that are able to take advantage of the most advanced processes which are expensive.

TSMC To Begin 7nm EUV Mass Production In June

TSMC is expected to begin mass production of chips using the second-generation 7nm process with EUV lithography in June, this year.

www.tomshardware.co.uk

 

[ArabianPrynce]

LordOfChaos What are your thoughts on the 2080TI full length vapor chamber?
The card design is pretty slim even though it pulls 300W+ during load, seems like a perfect fit for consoles pushing 200W+

7nm EUV spec was finalized in 2018 (3 years in advance), plenty of time for consoles to design for 7nm EUV from the start, RDNA2 is 7nm EUV as well
As per Cerny words engeneering takes 4 years

Both are looking good:

Samsung Electronics to Begin Mass Production of 7 nm EVU Chips in June

Samsung Electronics will start mass production of 7 nanometer (nm) extreme ultraviolet (EUV) chips in June, the first time in the global semiconductor industry

www.businesskorea.co.kr

TSMC To Begin 7nm EUV Mass Production In June

TSMC is expected to begin mass production of chips using the second-generation 7nm process with EUV lithography in June, this year.

www.tomshardware.co.uk

do you see the post that hints at hbm 2 for ps5?

 

[SonGoku]

This article posted by ArabianPrynce talks about development time tables.

We had six years to make the hardware, and it only takes about four years to do the actual engineering, so we had two years to figure out what we wanted to make the PlayStation 4. And we looked at a huge variety of technologies, including some that were just coming into possibility. In the end we decided that we could hit sort of a sweet spot by working with AMD's PC technology, the CPU and GPU, and then aggressively enhancing the GPU for that long-term growth.

The full process was that we had about two years to figure out what sort of hardware we were making, then two years to really nail it down and start out custom chip designs. Then two years to work on that larger user experience that surrounds the games.

We finalized the spec of the hardware. The process of creating the hardware is about four years. Two years into that it's locked enough that you can start talking about all this other stuff that's going to surround it.

Two years into the four years of engineering lines up with 2018 and 7nm+ perfectly (7nm EUV spec was also finalized in 2018)

We'd been targeting Holiday 2013 for many years, but with hardware, you never quite know if you're going to be able to reach the date. If you screw up something in your main custom chip, you could easily find that it takes six months to fix. And then you end up out of your targeted launch year. But none of that happened, so we're releasing.

So its not unrealistic to think they are targeting 2020 7nm+ and if mass production suffers some holdbacks they can just delay 6 months.

do you see the post that hints at hbm 2 for ps5?

Which? im catching up still

 

[ArabianPrynce]

This article posted by ArabianPrynce



Two years into the four years of engineering lines up with 2018 and 7nm+ perfectly (7nm EUV spec was also finalized in 2018)


So its not unrealistic to think they are targeting 2020 7nm+ and if mass production suffers some holdbacks they can just delay 6 months.

Which? im catching up still

latest amd patent

INTEGRATED THERMOELECTRIC COOLER FOR THREE-DIMENSIONAL STACKED DRAM AND TEMPERATURE-INVERTED CORES

Complete Patent Searching Database and Patent Data Analytics Services.

www.freepatentsonline.com

 

[Negotiator]

Let's hope this won't affect NAND prices:

Toshiba & WD NAND Production Hit By Power Outage: 6 Exabytes Lost

www.anandtech.com

 

[SonGoku]

what does it mean?

7nm yields are improving, 7nm EUV should be even better, bodes well for big chips

The AMD E3 presser pic R600 posted on the previous page shows the PS5 chip is 7nm and not 7nm+/7nm EUV.

so pretty sure they where designed for 7nm as screenshot from Lisa Su I provided says.

"powered by 7nm"

7nm EUV is still 7nm...
Its not specific or conclusive either way
Could be 7nm DUV or EUV

No, bad news is the fact that cost of process is so high the lower we go with nodes, so naturally MS and Sony will go for smaller dies.

Cost of designing the chip is higher, cost per mm2 on the same node depends of yields
With 7nm EUV they can make
A 66CU chip (60 enabled) with a 384bit bus 348.68mm2 (launch PS4 size)

 

[jonnyp]

Only problem is many people, especially in reee era dont think the 7nm+ will make it to consoles by the time it launches

TSMCs 7nm EUV already has a yield as good as their current 7nm process, I assume they just aren't ready for mass production on their EUV line now but should be next year. I just do not see any reason why Sony and MS would not go for EUV at this point if they are launching Nov next year

 

[ArabianPrynce]

TSMCs 7nm EUV already has a yield as good as their current 7nm process, I assume they just aren't ready for mass production on their EUV line now but should be next year. I just do not see any reason why Sony and MS would not go for EUV at this point if they are launching Nov next year

Same actually samsung as releasing theirs this month or june i think.

 

[SonGoku]

TSMCs 7nm EUV already has a yield as good as their current 7nm process, I assume they just aren't ready for mass production on their EUV line now but should be next year. I just do not see any reason why Sony and MS would not go for EUV at this point if they are launching Nov next year

Same actually samsung as releasing theirs this month or june i think.

TSMC will start mass production of 7nm EUV at the end of the second quarter of this year

 

[Gamernyc78]

This pretty much confirms the RT solution consoles are going with and by extent RDNA2.

Solution is very similar to what @Panajev2001a theorized
I think this further supports the idea of consoles going with RDNA2: Its in AMDs best interest both consoles support this so that game developers optimize for AMDs RT solution giving their cards an edge over nvidias

PS: Was a new thread made about this?

Good find!!!

 

[SonGoku]

8-9TF could happen but i also think that will require a bigger chip on 7nm DUV or a very power hungry 40CU chip

• 54CUs at 1400Mhz = 9.67TF (~380mm2-256 bit bus)
• 40CUs at 1700Mhz = 8.7TF
• 40CUs at 1760Mhz = 9TF

7nm EUV will be cheaper (less complex) and more power efficient
66CU chip 348.68mm2 (60 enabled - 3SEs)

• 60CU @1500 = 11.5TF
• 60CU @1600 = 12.2TF

Thats why i think consoles are designed around this tech, if it isn't ready in time they should just delay launch
It doesn't make sense to rush release 6 to 12 months and miss out on massive performance gains (8TF vs 12TF) not to mention cheaper and less power hungry SoC

If i was MS I would make sure to target 7nm EUV to guarantee the performance crown in case Sony goes with 7nm DUV

Good find!!!

It was N Negotiator find actually

 

[TeamGhobad]

i dont think 7nm euv is gonna be in these consoles. sorry to say. "standard" 7nm is coming.

 

[SonGoku]

i dont think 7nm euv is gonna be in these consoles. sorry to say. "standard" 7nm is coming.

Many things point towards 7nm EUV

• Spec was finalized in 2018 (just in time for engineering samples)
• RT & RDNA2 are 7nm EUV
• 7nm EUV yields are on par with 7nm DUV
• 7nm EUV begins mass production at the end of the second quarter of this year for both TSCM & Samsung
• 7nm EUV is cheaper than standard 7nm DUV

if it isn't ready in time for Q4 2020 they should just delay launch
It doesn't make sense to rush release 6 to 12 months and miss out on massive performance gains (8TF vs 12TF) not to mention cheaper and less power hungry SoCs

 

[TeamGhobad]

Many things point towards 7nm EUV

• Spec was finalized in 2018 (just in time for engineering samples)
• RT & RDNA2 are 7nm EUV
• 7nm EUV yields are on par with 7nm DUV
• 7nm EUV begins mass production at the end of the second quarter of this year for both TSCM & Samsung
• 7nm EUV is cheaper than standard 7nm DUV

if it isn't ready in time for Q4 2020 they should just delay launch
It doesn't make sense to rush release 6 to 12 months and miss out on massive performance gains (8TF vs 12TF) not to mention cheaper and less power hungry SoCs

no way they will delay the consoles for 6-12months, aint happening. i think that they will go with standard 7nm sell at a loss, switch over to 7nm euv and start selling for profit. also we don't know it will be RDNA2 either.

 

[ArabianPrynce]

no way they will delay the consoles for 6-12months, aint happening. i think that they will go with standard 7nm sell at a loss, switch over to 7nm euv and start selling for profit. also we don't know it will be RDNA2 either.

this is what is going to have ray tracing support. Both consoles are going to hardware support so why would use rdna 1?

 

[SonGoku]

no way they will delay the consoles for 6-12months, aint happening.

Not saying they will delay but if mass production suffers setbacks its not out of the plans to delay launch:

We'd been targeting Holiday 2013 for many years, but with hardware, you never quite know if you're going to be able to reach the date. If you screw up something in your main custom chip, you could easily find that it takes six months to fix. And then you end up out of your targeted launch year. But none of that happened, so we're releasing.

i think that they will go with standard 7nm sell at a loss, switch over to 7nm euv and start selling for profit

7nm EUV offers area and power reduction but is not design compatible with 7nm DUV. No way they'll redesign the chip
6nm is what they would go for in that case since its design compatible with 7nm DUV but offers no power reduction and less area reduction (15% vs 20%)

also we don't know it will be RDNA2 either.

AMDs RT tech seems pretty tied to arch, they can't just add RT cores to RDNA1 and call it a day

 

[xool]

Is the expectation for a late 2020 release, with mass production starting mid 2020 .. ?

 

[sonomamashine]

standard 7nm it is, when asked about PCIe 5.0 is just right around the corner. lisa herself said "Things always seem like they're going to be faster, and things always take a little bit longer than expected." so standard 7nm it is.
nothing is getting delayed, they already made their decision at least 1 year ago, you cant launch a product in 2020 and still scrambling.
as for RT it wont be hardware solution but compute shaders, check out AMD's slide for RT (RDNA 1 it is)
my taught's on this :
backward comp digital + cd's
displaying 1080p - 1440p - 4k - 8k your choosing, will be tweaks for 4k60 and 8k....
cpu wise it's gonna be real good
gpu ... gonna be a let down for "hard core gamers" 10.7tflops --- 13tf MAX, me personally im a hard core gamer and quite exited about next gen because of RYZEN, think about the physics, details, AI etc ... i dont mind graphics like TLOUS 2 and ghost of tsushima wich i think both (early kit) next gen trailers, not ps4 pro
yes it will be on ps4 (down graded) physics - leafs on ghost (also check vid of devs showing ghost locations) not capable on jaguar, ps4 pro suffers in just cause 4.
next gen might cost 449$ and its acceptable.
side note dont get fooled in trailers ssd so fast they gonna mix CGI with real time gameplay you wont notice, like they did with HALO trailer.

 

[Mass Shift]

SonGoku

Read the last few pages. Very reasoned theory. It seems to have most things straight but does require some stretches of presumption to connect all of it's dots. It will be interesting to see just how much of it actually lines up with the way you expect.

 

[SonGoku]

SonGoku

Read the last few pages. Very reasoned theory. It seems to have most things straight but does require some stretches of presumption to connect all of it's dots. It will be interesting to see just how much of it actually lines up with the way you expect.

Definitely, im not claiming to be right, its just what makes the most sense
7nm EUV will not only enable more powerful chips but also be cheaper to produce and the timelines fit a 2018 chip design lock and 2020 console launch

If it ends up being 7nm DUV (standard 7nm)
Either expect a very power hungry 40CU chip or a big ass die (390-400mm2) just to hit 9TF

 

[TLZ]

standard 7nm it is, when asked about PCIe 5.0 is just right around the corner. lisa herself said "Things always seem like they're going to be faster, and things always take a little bit longer than expected." so standard 7nm it is.
nothing is getting delayed, they already made their decision at least 1 year ago, you cant launch a product in 2020 and still scrambling.
as for RT it wont be hardware solution but compute shaders, check out AMD's slide for RT (RDNA 1 it is)
my taught's on this :
backward comp digital + cd's
displaying 1080p - 1440p - 4k - 8k your choosing, will be tweaks for 4k60 and 8k....
cpu wise it's gonna be real good
gpu ... gonna be a let down for "hard core gamers" 10.7tflops --- 13tf MAX, me personally im a hard core gamer and quite exited about next gen because of RYZEN, think about the physics, details, AI etc ... i dont mind graphics like TLOUS 2 and ghost of tsushima wich i think both (early kit) next gen trailers, not ps4 pro
yes it will be on ps4 (down graded) physics - leafs on ghost (also check vid of devs showing ghost locations) not capable on jaguar, ps4 pro suffers in just cause 4.
next gen might cost 449$ and its acceptable.
side note dont get fooled in trailers ssd so fast they gonna mix CGI with real time gameplay you wont notice, like they did with HALO trailer.

At least they're RDNA and not GCN TFs. So that should be a leap too.

 

[SonGoku]

At least they're RDNA and not GCN TFs. So that should be a leap too.

gpu ... gonna be a let down for "hard core gamers" 10.7tflops --- 13tf MAX

amazing if true

 

[sonomamashine]

lol guys 10.7tf - 13tf GCN not RDNA, if it was RDNA it would be 2080ti performance xD

 

[SonGoku]

RDNA it would be 2080ti performance xD

what's wrong with that? haha xd

 

[psorcerer]

Teraflops are teraflops. Architecture doesn't matter much. It matters in PC world, where you have a very thick API layer and cannot really optimize for the hardware at all.
But in the console world (specifically PS, MSFT still wants some shitty abstraction) you can get all the TF if you're good enough.

 

[Evilms]

 

[TLZ]

Plataform though.

I still hope this is true.

 

[SonGoku]

When this first "leaked" I was team fake 100% because of ssd and gcn 64cu limit, now don't know anymore lol

Plataform though.

I still hope this is true.

wasn't it proven fake due to some mistake?

 

[chessy_08]

Screams fake

 

[TLZ]

When this first "leaked" I was team fake 100% because of ssd and gcn 64cu limit, now don't know anymore lol

wasn't it proven fake due to some mistake?

Well it mentions April 1st 2018 there which many said means April's fools.

Plus the plataform spelling mistake.

 

[SonGoku]

Plus the plataform spelling mistake.

That's a mistake a native Spanish speaker would make, case in point i didn't even notice lol
Amazing how much shit it got right for a fake

• 100% backwards compatible with PS4 games
• Fully compatible with PS VR and PlayStation Move offering a improved VR experience
• CPU: AMD Zen 8 cores – single-chip custom processor
• Storage – 1TB SSD

 

[ANIMAL1975]

That's a mistake a native Spanish speaker would make, case in point i didn't even notice lol

Sony Spain leak then!
AntonioBanderas.gif

 

[TLZ]

Sony Spain leak then!
AntonioBanderas.gif

Is there a Kratos version of that gif?

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Is there a Kratos version of that gif?

Iu welcome

 

[SonGoku]

Best meme of the gen

 

[xool]

Fake - we know we're not getting 14.2TF on Navi .. not at any price point

Interesting on how they were right on several things .. what's the date for this ?

 

[ResilientBanana]

Oh cool a fake slide show with a $1,000 console.

 

[SonGoku]

Fake - we know we're not getting 14.2TF on Navi .. not at any price point

Interesting on how they were right on several things .. what's the date for this ?

These PS5 Slides Are Said To Be From Sony

New leak, but it doesn't ring true.

www.psu.com

Its fake but 14TF isn't impossible in a console sized box, its just unlikely because it would require a big die even on 7nm+ (390mm2)

 

[xool]

Forget about this - the post above missed the later slides that show it for the badly spelt fanboy's wet dream it is - here you go (2slides) :

• High Dinamic Range
• Stably Rotating games at 60 frames per second

Bad japan translation can't save this one

 

[SonGoku]

lol i already conceded its fake
In the spirit of old leaks, let's take a moment to laugh at semmiaccurates terrible leak (read: prediction)

Quick Summary of Playstation 5 article:

-Uses AMD's Navi as its base architecture, not specifically using Navi lol
-CPU is custom Zen
-Large amount of devkits have apparently gone out.
-Author suggests 2018 release lol of PS5 is not out of the question based on the amount of devkits released as this is a "sure sign that the launch is getting close". Not definitive.
-VR "goodies" baked in at the silicon level. (My Opinion, not authors: Sony not giving up on PSVR any time soon. VR support inside the PS5 right out of the box)

Some more stuff in there, but doesn't really discuss power of the system.

$1000 subscription paywall btw

 

[ANIMAL1975]

These PS5 Slides Are Said To Be From Sony

New leak, but it doesn't ring true.

www.psu.com

Its fake but 14TF isn't impossible in a console sized box, its just unlikely because it would require a big die even on 7nm+ (390mm2)

Wow at the date April 2018!
That's your Kaiju right there SonGoku, embrace it join the strong side of the force,... join team14.2

Spoiler

formerly known as team16.8 GCN

Forget about this - the post above missed the later slides that show it for the badly spelt fanboy's wet dream it is - here you go (2slides) :

• High Dinamic Range
• Stably Rotating games at 60 frames per second

Bad japan translation can't save this one

It was already established to be a Sony Spain headquarters leak... Hence the bad spelling.

 

[SonGoku]

formerly known as team16.8 GCN

Holly shit, never even knew such mythical Kaiju existed
I don't discard 14.2TF but i also consider it the most optimistic of scenarios, not very likely

 

[TLZ]

• Stably Rotating games at 60 frames per second

Bad japan translation can't save this one

Maybe the poor fella was starving rotating chicken at 60 rotations per minute on the grill.

Seriously though, what if it was leaked from a Hispanic speaking source?

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Holly shit, never even knew such mythical Kaiju existed
I don't discard 14.2TF but i also consider it the most optimistic of scenarios, not very likely

First old GCN Kaiju devkits, now 14.2 RDNA Kaiju.

 

[R600]

That's a mistake a native Spanish speaker would make, case in point i didn't even notice lol
Amazing how much shit it got right for a fake

• 100% backwards compatible with PS4 games
• Fully compatible with PS VR and PlayStation Move offering a improved VR experience
• CPU: AMD Zen 8 cores – single-chip custom processor
• Storage – 1TB SSD

So pretty much all things we already knew about heh?

 

[xool]

It was already established to be a Sony Spain headquarters leak... Hence the bad spelling.

(how?)


So it's a real leak? because 14.2 TF is a lot if true.

 

[SonGoku]

(how?)


So it's a real leak? because 14.2 TF is a lot if true.

He is joking based on my comment, its fake 100%

 

[xool]

Expecting both to include CPU+GPU flops in their publicity material - especially if it gets them to the magickal 2 digit number (> 10TF)

8 core Zen is ~ 0.8TF (am I near?)

 

[ResilientBanana]

Holly shit, never even knew such mythical Kaiju existed
I don't discard 14.2TF but i also consider it the most optimistic of scenarios, not very likely

How could you not discard 14.2? I know that you understand that it's unlikely, but that is a "no chance in hell" number.