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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)

The cost of 60fps?

Is that shot from consoles?

Driveclub has this in abundance and it looks incredible.

I know that Driveclub has them but I was just referring to Forza vs GT. That shot is from max settings on PC. It's not my best shot + being JPG it makes it look a bit shitter than it already is.

One thing that's cool is that while Driveclub's car to car reflections are screen space, pCARS2's are dynamic cubemaps, which works much better.
 
I know that Driveclub has them but I was just referring to Forza vs GT. That shot is from max settings on PC. It's not my best shot + being JPG it makes it look a bit shitter than it already is.

One thing that's cool is that while Driveclub's car to car reflections are screen space, pCARS2's are dynamic cubemaps, which works much better.

Looks like GTS has light but not modelling reflected.

LsOsSia.gif


I'm personally not a fan of cube maps, the majority of the time the reflection is incorrect.
 

Sebmugi

Member
I thought I'd interrupt the whole GT vs Forza debate with something that neither of them have - reflections of dynamic objects. It's not my best shot (and I didn't keep the PNG copy, oops) but you can clearly see the DB11 is reflected in the Mustang.


37516478061_f492cafc09_o.jpg

it is what seems to me .. on console this reflection does not exist .. even on ps4 pro like here .. there is however a small red dot to simulate the braking lights .. but yes in 60 fps on ocnsole it does not exist, yet .. :/

1507227643-project-cars-2-20171005201359.png


1507227650-project-cars-2-20171005201702.png


but management of reflections in PC2 is good for the rain but it pixelate a lot ..(sorry I repeat myself but it is of circumstance .. ;))

1507227956-project-cars-2-20170924172416.png


1507227958-project-cars-2-20170924162627.png
 

cooldawn

Member
I appreciate why you posted that video but the sun has already disappeared and the in-engine technology just dims the light to pitch black after that.

I need to see the sun move in the sky and the shadows creep across the tarmac.

Yea, well a game with ~180 cars should have details that good. And it's not surprising when said developer spends their time working on scapes instead of more tracks and things like campaign modes.

But hey, them pictures will look great!
It's also why I'm really grateful Polyphony Digital do all the work. You hand out jobs to third parties and standards will differ.
 
Don't take this guy too serious fam. He said bloom of the headlights should dim when shadows pass over it, in the forza vs gts corvette thread. Doesn't know how lights work.

From the vantage point of the camera, as the shadow passes over the headlight it would darken the plastic or glass where the light shines through. It would dim slightly as the shadow passes over it.

It's a bloom effect that's not volumetric, so there's no reaction what so ever.

You have no room to talk about anyone. You used a pic from an old gts beta to claim it has worse trees than forza

Nah, you're mistaken. I used a pic from an old gts beta to prove that at one time gts had "2d wallpaper-like" trees. You might want to read the post I was responding to instead of seeing a bad picture of GTS and claiming something that isn't true.
 

Gestault

Member
From the vantage point of the camera, as the shadow passes over the headlight it would darken the plastic or glass where the light shines through. It would dim slightly as the shadow passes over it.

It's a bloom effect that's not volumetric, so there's no reaction what so ever.

Shadows are the absense of light (relative to something else). It's not "reverse-light." My understanding is that a shadow in that case would have no discernible effect on light from the headlamp. I don't think there would be any reaction, like you're imagining it.
 
From the vantage point of the camera, as the shadow passes over the headlight it would darken the plastic or glass where the light shines through. It would dim slightly as the shadow passes over it.

It's a bloom effect that's not volumetric, so there's no reaction what so ever.



Nah, you're mistaken. I used a pic from an old gts beta to prove that at one time gts had "2d wallpaper-like" trees. You might want to read the post I was responding to instead of seeing a bad picture of GTS and claiming something that isn't true.

Werent your exact words

"And forza still manages to have better trees than GT Sport"

Or at least something very close to that
 
Werent your exact words

"And forza still manages to have better trees than GT Sport"

Or at least something very close to that

What does that have to do with what you are referencing? The pic that I posted from gts with the ugly trees was in response to a specific post. I didn't post a pic of Forza's trees and compare them directly to that pic.

Someone said they didn't remember GTS having trees that looked as bad as Forza.. and all I said was that I did, and posted that pic.

I've admitted Maple Valleys trees were terrible. They quite simply are. It's a huge step back from Forza 4. I don't think the trees look that shit in all tracks however... and in many cases prefer how they look (especially in the mid to far background) over the trees in GTS.

I guess the hostility is there now, so no matter what I post or what it's in response to, people are gonna lump it all together.
 
To be fair... Maple Valley's trees in Forza 4 looks better because of the blurry visuals.

Things look much worse when everything now in HD. Like watching porn and realising the guy has a pimple.
 
To be fair... Maple Valley's trees in Forza 4 looks better because of the blurry visuals.

Things look much worse when everything now in HD. Like watching porn and realising the guy has a pimple.

Nah, they look better because they are actually 3d modeled. They exist in the space and as you pass by or even under them, you feel more inside a 3d environment.

The tricks that Forza 7 uses, especially in Maple Valley, you don't get that sensation. You can see the trees texture turn with you as you go by.

Those tricks are great for far distance stuff, but it's imperative that they start modelling all trees in close proximity to the track in 3d for next gen.
 
To be fair... Maple Valley's trees in Forza 4 looks better because of the blurry visuals.

Things look much worse when everything now in HD. Like watching porn and realising the guy has a pimple.

not quite, you can play forza 7 in 720p and the trees would look just as terrible.
 

Neo 007

Member
To me Forza 7 looks like a photo enhanced to look good for a 6 year old and GT Sport looks like that photo has been enhanced by a professional photographer.

My opinion....deal with it.
 
What does that have to do with what you are referencing? The pic that I posted from gts with the ugly trees was in response to a specific post. I didn't post a pic of Forza's trees and compare them directly to that pic.

Someone said they didn't remember GTS having trees that looked as bad as Forza.. and all I said was that I did, and posted that pic.

I've admitted Maple Valleys trees were terrible. They quite simply are. It's a huge step back from Forza 4. I don't think the trees look that shit in all tracks however... and in many cases prefer how they look (especially in the mid to far background) over the trees in GTS.

I guess the hostility is there now, so no matter what I post or what it's in response to, people are gonna lump it all together.

Maple valley is certainly a low point but taking both games as a whole in their present state i dont think anyone could objectivey believe forza trees arent noticeably worse than GT. Maple valley ignored entirely still wouldnt change things. Its foolish to even expect forza to look better than GT since its the same res and framerate target while one is on a much weaker GPU and is spending rendering power on msaa
 
To me Forza 7 looks like a photo enhanced to look good for a 6 year old and GT Sport looks like that photo has been enhanced by a professional photographer.

My opinion....deal with it.

Your avatar wouldn't happen to be a picture of a blind man would it?

I think Forza 7 looks great for a 1080/60 game that runs on a 1.3TF GPU. I think sticking to 1080p is holding them back and a dynamic res with more eye candy might be better. They are going for consistent performance though and I can respect that.
 

Apex

Member
One thing that's cool is that while Driveclub's car to car reflections are screen space, pCARS2's are dynamic cubemaps, which works much better.
No self reflections = much better?

Yeah, both GT and Forza have that, just no reflection of the actual object itself like DC/PC2.
Any example in Forza? I'm used to see nothing resembling realistic reflections in the AI cars, and even less tail-lights reflecting like lightsources between cars.
 

cooldawn

Member
To me Forza 7 looks like a photo enhanced to look good for a 6 year old and GT Sport looks like that photo has been enhanced by a professional photographer.

My opinion....deal with it.
Probably because Kazunori Yamauchi is also a semi-professional photographer. He's got quite the collection of camera's and lens, hence his advanced HDR work.
 
No self reflections = much better?


Any example in Forza? I'm used to see nothing resembling realistic reflections in the AI cars, and even less tail-lights reflecting like lightsources between cars.

Cubemap approach is better IMO because to me it's more of an immersion breaker to see an entire car disappear from a reflection as soon as the real thing is off camera. Self reflections aren't as big to me, but this is all just opinion of course.

Forza example - just a quick and dirty one, here's an RS6's taillight causing red point light reflections on a dark grey Ghibli.
 
Thanks. Looks more like a spotlight than a true reflection?
I have no idea to be honest, it's hard to tell in any of them really whether it's "reflection of light source" versus "light casting on the car". If you have some criteria for what counts as a real reflection I'll look into it.

What I did notice that I assume some will pick up on - the reflection isn't anywhere near as wide as the car's actual tail light. I took a frame from the GTS gif with its own light reflection and compared it, the light in the reflection is roughly half as wide as the real source.

Every game I've seen with light reflections seems to reflect them as spots rather than in the actual shape, so I'm going to just assume that Forza's is reasonably accurate since it's consistent with others' approches.

What an awful lot of text for something so small :p
 
Werent your exact words

"And forza still manages to have better trees than GT Sport"

Or at least something very close to that

He ate those words a long time ago lol

To me Forza 7 looks like a photo enhanced to look good for a 6 year old and GT Sport looks like that photo has been enhanced by a professional photographer.

My opinion....deal with it.

Funny you say that, as GTS's creator is a massive photography enthusiast. PD really now how to make cars look good with shots and cinematography.
 

Krayz

Member
From the vantage point of the camera, as the shadow passes over the headlight it would darken the plastic or glass where the light shines through. It would dim slightly as the shadow passes over it.

It's a bloom effect that's not volumetric, so there's no reaction what so ever.


Notice how prominent the bloom is when the cars are in the tunnel then it fades away as it exits the tunnel into sunlight.
EDIT: Shadow over a headlight would actually intensify the bloom effect not dim it.
 

eso76

Member
Funny you say that, as GTS's creator is a massive photography enthusiast. PD really now how to make cars look good with shots and cinematography.

Btw, FM7 replays are still completely wrong.
The video grammar is completely wrong, the cuts, the cameras. I've seen stuff like three consecutive cuts with the car appearing in the same position, in the same part of the screen.
Oh and all of them happening BEFORE it even left the screen.
Floating camera following the car then cut to a fixed camera in basically the same position as where the previous ended up.
Cars going left to right in one shot, then in the opposite direction in the next. Entering left and exiting right, then entering right going left, ignoring the 180°rule.

I thought they were improving but the new tracks (Dubai) are even worse. FFS hire someone already. Anyone, really.
 
Notice how prominent the bloom is when the cars are in the tunnel then it fades away as it exits the tunnel into sunlight.
EDIT: Shadow over a headlight would actually intensify the bloom effect not dim it.

So there would be some reaction then, right?

Btw, FM7 replays are still completely wrong.
The video grammar is completely wrong, the cuts, the cameras. I've seen stuff like three consecutive cuts with the car appearing in the same position, in the same part of the screen.
Oh and all of them happening BEFORE it even left the screen.
Floating camera following the car then cut to a fixed camera in basically the same position as where the previous ended up.
Cars going left to right in one shot, then in the opposite direction in the next. Entering left and exiting right, then entering right going left, ignoring the 180°rule.

I thought they were improving but the new tracks (Dubai) are even worse. FFS hire someone already. Anyone, really.

Yea, Forza's replays have always been terrible compared to Gran Turismo's. I was hoping they'd improve the whole system for Forza 7, but I was wrong... It's the exact same as FM6 and 5.
 

GribbleGrunger

Dreams in Digital
Yea, well a game with ~180 cars should have details that good. And it's not surprising when said developer spends their time working on scapes instead of more tracks and things like campaign modes.

But hey, them pictures will look great!

This will ease any worries you have:

Of course we’re preparing for DLC and updates after launch, However I cannot provide specifics at this point. That said, we absolutely won’t keep you waiting one year like it happened with Gran Turismo 5. I believe they’ll come out steadily after a certain period from launch.

As reported by GTPlanet, speaking at the PlayStation Experience event in Malaysia, Yamauchi responded to a question from Youtube user Gema Show Indo and confirmed that there will be online updates in the form of new cars and tracks - but that microtransactions are definitely off the table this time round.
 

Gaenor

Banned
This will ease any worries you have:
As reported by GTPlanet, speaking at the PlayStation Experience event in Malaysia, Yamauchi responded to a question from Youtube user Gema Show Indo and confirmed that there will be online updates in the form of new cars and tracks - but that microtransactions are definitely off the table this time round.

But will we have to pay for the tracks and cars ?
 

eso76

Member
I appreciate why you posted that video but the sun has already disappeared and the in-engine technology just dims the light to pitch black after that.

I need to see the sun move in the sky and the shadows creep across the tarmac.

I don't think that can happen with their engine.
That's why the dynamic ToD can only happen between no more than 2 lighting conditions, and provided one of them has no shadows at all (night, or 100% cloudy).
Dusk/night, night/dawn, whatever/overcast.

At least, I haven't seen anything else.
 

KageMaru

Member
It's also why I'm really grateful Polyphony Digital do all the work. You hand out jobs to third parties and standards will differ.

The dedication is definitely something to appreciate and fits with this thread but I think most gamers would have more cars that may not be quite the same level of detail.
 

Apex

Member
I have no idea to be honest, it's hard to tell in any of them really whether it's "reflection of light source" versus "light casting on the car". If you have some criteria for what counts as a real reflection I'll look into it.

What I did notice that I assume some will pick up on - the reflection isn't anywhere near as wide as the car's actual tail light. I took a frame from the GTS gif with its own light reflection and compared it, the light in the reflection is roughly half as wide as the real source.

Every game I've seen with light reflections seems to reflect them as spots rather than in the actual shape, so I'm going to just assume that Forza's is reasonably accurate since it's consistent with others' approches.

What an awful lot of text for something so small :p
I don't mean the shape of the tail light reflection, I guess that all games does make shortcuts there.

Is rather easy.
Light casting also affect to non reflective materials, like rubber.
Light reflections always appear as a bright hotspot shape over a reflective surface and they should move depending of the view angle. Aren't static like a painted spot over the car surface.

gtstlpwsis.jpg


I suspect that Forza is projecting a light but no reflecting it?

0uIZFjT.jpg
 
I don't mean the shape of the tail light reflection, I guess that all games does make shortcuts there.

Is rather easy.
Light casting also affect to non reflective materials, like rubber.
Light reflections always appear as a bright hotspot shape over a reflective surface and they should move depending of the view angle. Aren't static like a painted spot over the car surface.
I suspect that Forza is projecting a light but no reflecting it?

I think this should settle it. I painted a van chrome to test, just to have a large, flat, reflective surface area. Using the same terms you used (casting versus reflections) just to make it clear.

In the first shot, the van is reflecting the light sources of the two cars behind it. The top white lights are from the track stands, the bottom yellow lights are from cars. The reflections are clearly being rendered on the middle of the van, the reflector at the top, and the reflectors in the reverse lights. The casting lights are visible on the Ford badge, the area where the plates would be, and the road of course. EDIT: Also, bear in mind that the casting isn't quite as visible on the van in these shots since chrome is less rough and will diffuse less light.

The second shot is the exact same shot with all headlights switched off. Open them in two tabs and flick between, you can see where each reflection would've been and where each light cast would've been.

This shot has light reflections visible (the Hilux's rear lights on the van), but not much casting going on as it's not fully dark + the Hilux seems to have rather dim lights.

Hope that's clear enough, I was starting to struggle to find proof until I had the idea of making a hideous chrome van :p
 

Apex

Member
I think this should settle it. I painted a van chrome to test, just to have a large, flat, reflective surface area. Using the same terms you used (casting versus reflections) just to make it clear.

In the first shot, the van is reflecting the light sources of the two cars behind it. The top white lights are from the track stands, the bottom yellow lights are from cars. The reflections are clearly being rendered on the middle of the van, the reflector at the top, and the reflectors in the reverse lights. The casting lights are visible on the Ford badge, the area where the plates would be, and the road of course. EDIT: Also, bear in mind that the casting isn't quite as visible on the van in these shots since chrome is less rough and will diffuse less light.

The second shot is the exact same shot with all headlights switched off. Open them in two tabs and flick between, you can see where each reflection would've been and where each light cast would've been.


This shot has light reflections visible (the Hilux's rear lights on the van), but not much casting going on as it's not fully dark + the Hilux seems to have rather dim lights.


Hope that's clear enough, I was starting to struggle to find proof until I had the idea of making a hideous chrome van :p
Yeah, that's some proof. Didn't work with the original paints?
 
What am I looking at with the interior pics. Is that GTS vs Forza 7, or improvements across the GT series?

Either way, pictures are incredible.
 
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