Could you please play the game before posting retarded bullshit
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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Togglesworlh
Banned
No I'm not. I'm making a very specific gmaeplay choice.
I do not like the way Mario feels in Melee. I love the way Dr. Mario feels. Whether or not you will admit it in your blind, hateful crusade against the world-ending epidemic that is clones in fighting game, it is factually incorrect to say that the two characters play identically.
Ike is not a clone in any shape or form, but saying Lucas and Wolf are *VERY* different is quite an exaggeration. You may be satisfied with their level of elaboration from clone status, but they're still mildly adapted clones in my eyes. That constitutes laziness, and thus would serve better as costumes as I don't consider them all too fitting for the title of "unique." Anecdotal evidence being the Landmaster, if they really cared, they wouldn't have propped the model in their and changed some properties.
"Going the extra mile" led to MvC2. That is not quality control, and in a perfect world, yes they would go the extra mile and make X a fully fledged character to flesh him out, but the exact reason he isn't is because the team prides itself on unique gameplay additions. They felt there would be too much overlap between X and Zero, and that the other newcomers added more unique stuff to the cast. Not the fans call, it was the devs, who prioritize uniqueness over fanservice.
Spouting what now? What did the devs spout and what about release dates? I'm not sure what your trying to say here.
Oh I agree, Wolf and in general "clones" are more developed to more of a degree in Brawl than in Melee or even SF, but I still don't consider them completely unique characters because they are still derivatives with the efforts at making them unique capped off at a point.
The fact that Falco, by your definition, is still a clone and exists in that form should be a testament to the developer's intentions and where their priorities lie.
Why do you keep using Dr. Mario as an example? I don't consider him a clone anyways. He isn't a part of this discussion.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Wow. What.
If Dr. Mario isn't a clone, then there are no clones in the Smash Bros. series.
Who would you consider a clone, then? Because literally everyone that the average Smash connoisseur would consider a clone plays differently enough from their source to justify their place.
I just refreshed my memory on Dr. Mario, correction: he is a clone. I be trippin', my memory deceived me. Apologies.
Sure, as long as characters aren't exactly the same you can justify their presence, but that doesn't make it a good rationale even if it is a rationale. All I see in the discussion of Me vs. Smash connoisseurs here is the different definition of the word clone. If a character plays slightly different to you guys, he's not a clone. I realize the word clone may be sensitive to folk here cause Smash gets a lot of undeserved shit for it, but I don't believe that deems any sort of justification where minute differences all of a sudden exempt someone from clone status.
But Wolf/Fox isn't one of those "His blank attack hits guys up instead of down" type things. Every move is a different animation, different frame data and all that nonsense. All of Wolf's smashes hit twice, none of Fox's do. None of their ariels match up either. When you decide to chose Wolf, it's just as relevant to your decision making that Mario is another choice than it is that Fox is also a choice.
Black-Wind
Member
I think clones can be a great feature to the roster if done right.
I also find it funny how everyone's definition of what a clone is in the Smash series is different when it comes to Brawl. Like Ookami's notion that Falco is the only brawl "clone" ... regardless of the fact that they actually did make changes to him such as his down B where as Ganon is the same as ever.
Like I said, I think that custom B moves and stats would fix it so that they can have a ton a clones that make sense (like Raichu ... makes sense that it would be a bigger/ heavier/ slower and stronger Pikachu. Ganon, how every, makes no sense ... but another character related to Falcon would).
The way I see it having the choice between moves would really open up the game. They could make moves that rep different games in the series and even allow for some clones to have unique moves that make them feel more special.
I also find it funny how everyone's definition of what a clone is in the Smash series is different when it comes to Brawl. Like Ookami's notion that Falco is the only brawl "clone" ... regardless of the fact that they actually did make changes to him such as his down B where as Ganon is the same as ever.
Like I said, I think that custom B moves and stats would fix it so that they can have a ton a clones that make sense (like Raichu ... makes sense that it would be a bigger/ heavier/ slower and stronger Pikachu. Ganon, how every, makes no sense ... but another character related to Falcon would).
The way I see it having the choice between moves would really open up the game. They could make moves that rep different games in the series and even allow for some clones to have unique moves that make them feel more special.
Togglesworlh
Banned
Who's this "you guys"? I've repeatedly stated that I like clones, because they add more to the overall gameplay with not much effort, and they offer alternatives to people who would otherwise never play those characters. I cannot overstate how much I dislike Mario. Everything about him feels wrong to me. I avoided Dr. Mario for a long time because of it. Then I decided to try Dr. Mario, and WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED suddenly he's my go-to choice every time I get together with my friends. Something "minute" to you makes all the difference in the world to me, and other people.
I never play Mario in Brawl. He feels even worse than in Melee, somehow. Granted, I also play Brawl significantly less, because it came out once I was in college, and my college friends were all PC gamers.
I find it funny that I call Dr. Mario a clone, you tell me he's not, go back on it, and then accuse me of saying he's NOT a clone. You're being a big fuckin' baby about this.
Professor Beef
Banned
enzo, you're my homey, but you're fighting a losing war here.
They also said Ghost Rider was too punchy and they couldnt implement him cause they couldnt figure how to add in his motorcycle. Capcom is full of bullshit.
Do Mario/Dr. Mario and Fox/Wolf use the same framework for a character from there change things to differentiate them? That in my eyes, is a clone, not a completely unique character.
To be clear: Im not trying to argue that they don't play different here, they quite obviously do. This whole argument started from me saying that Nintendo has no reason to abandon the clone approach, that being using a whole lot of characters as frameworks to make subsequent variations of for the purpose of filling slots, instead of making another unique character from scratch to fulfill a gameplay niche or what have you. Essentially, Ninty makes the niche characters, then creates the variations from therein out. That is what differentiates it for me. People who play SF would say Ryu plays *COMPLETELY DIFFERENT* from Ken, but one is still a derivative of the other, and I wouldn't call either Shoto unique, as they are both, Shotos. That is my point of reference for this debate.
You guys as in, Smash connoisseurs, your label, not mine. I'm gonna have to agree to disagree here. I would rather devs not take the effort to, as I said up above, differentiate from a fewer number of character archetypes so to speak, and instead work to make every character unique from the ground up. As long as one is a derivative of the other, I still consider them a clone. Is that a bad thing? No, but it's not as good as a completely unique character, IMO. That's not that difficult to understand.
Also lol @ the last bit. You seem pretty upset over even debating the functionality of clones. Sensitive topic though, I know.
I honestly don't think so. I didn't come here to stir shit up, and have nothing against clones (I fucking main Sakura), I'm just trying to make a point for why it's best to have characters built from the ground up and leave the aesthetically similar characters to "costumes" to leave room, and resources, for the unique. I realized I may not have been clear enough so I hope this post clarifies it.
No that was Luke Cage, and we got Iron Fist LOL.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Actually, it was Ghost Rider. I remembered them disconfirmed him just like that. They couldn't figure out to do motorcycle for him because they don't want him without any motorcycle. Also they said few characters were punchy and ghost rider and iron fist was in those list that they mention.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I dunno, derivatives are pretty fun to see. A lot of character nowadays tend to be like that. Hell, just go ask Melty Blood people.
Besides, it's Wolf the only time you see a werewolf in a fighting game. It's been years since I last see that. UNLESS Capcom puts Jon Talbain in MvC3 as a playable character but noooooooo...
And yes - you'll be surprised how many people think Ike is a clone. FUCKING IKE.
I'm actually more fine with color palette being a shoutout than model swapping. At least it doesn't "pretend" that the character is someone. Like I said, I don't really want X as an example, but he's easy to poke into.
Ah nevermind - just went out of the tangent. Since apparently Bethesda wanted to put more in Skyrim but had to be rushed to meet the 11.11.11 date.
Like I said - they're unique to me in a sense that Sagat is unique despite being a shotoclone. The general playstyle makes them different enough for them to stand out on their own.
I guess they're pretty fine with it because somehow it's a norm in fighting games in general. Even SNK and ASW are guilty with it.
Did they actually say this? Do you have a source? Cause that's pretty much bullshit and I'm surprised someone like you would buy that. You are talking about the same game that has Ryu/Akuma, Wolverine/X-23, Hulk/She-Hulk, Dante/Vergil, etc. right? NO WAY are X/Zero more similar than any of those pairs. NO WAY.
I also vaguely remember them saying they couldn't implement Nemesis, Ghost Rider (the bike was supposedly a problem) and a few other characters for reasons A,B,C. Lo and behold, a bunch of them made it into Ultimate. Capcom makes good games and particular individuals like Seth are great people but my lord do they, like most of the "Big Boys", spew bullshit. Please don't eat it up
I will agree with your general point that Smash could do a better job separating some of its characters apart from each other in terms of play style. At least I think that is what you're saying. The above paragraph is confusing to read @_@
AdventureRacing
Member
So what exactly do you think would happen if the clones were removed? All that would happen is we would end up with less characters overall.
If they removed all the clone characters and just left them as costumes and didn't add any other characters how would that be better for us?
I think the way it is now is much better. Why make Dr mario just a costume when you can make some simple changes and turn him into a completely different character to mario?
If they removed all the clone characters and just left them as costumes and didn't add any other characters how would that be better for us?
I think the way it is now is much better. Why make Dr mario just a costume when you can make some simple changes and turn him into a completely different character to mario?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Dr. Mario would be better if he can make people sick.
*fixes face*
This is the distinction. I get what Togglesworth is trying to say. Yeah he'd rather a few different characters with different "builds" so to speak that alter them in such ways that you can find your specific playstyle within a niche. I understand the want for that, but I'd rather they not. I'd rather the wacky shit, I'd rather them throw all those even vaguely similar characters out the window in favor of some more Game & Watches, some more R.O.B.s.. that's what made Brawl special to me. Not Fox/Falco/Wolf. BUT I conversely realize how important fanservice is to Brawl and I understand their implementation and form. It's a necessary evil, that pleases a lot of people. I am the minority.
Did you read what I said? I said devs call, not the fans.Did they actually say this? Do you have a source? Cause that's pretty much bullshit and I'm surprised someone like you would buy that. You are talking about the same game that has Ryu/Akuma, Wolverine/X-23, Hulk/She-Hulk, Dante/Vergil, etc. right? NO WAY are X/Zero more similar than any of those pairs. NO WAY.
I also vaguely remember them saying they couldn't implement Nemesis, Ghost Rider (the bike was supposedly a problem) and a few other characters for reasons A,B,C. Lo and behold, a bunch of them made it into Ultimate. Capcom makes good games and particular individuals like Seth are great people but my lord do they, like most of the "Big Boys", spew bullshit. Please don't eat it up
The MMX argument has been done to hell and back and back to hell and back on MahvelGAF. Yes, fans can make movesets that differentiate X SO much further than Zero, remove the blade entirely for one. *THEY* felt that way about it, not us. They felt, due to whatever you attribute it to, lack of creativity, laziness, whatever, that X would be too similar to Zero. And they don't want that. Maybe the buster alone was the reasoning for why they couldn't have two Megamen, we'll never know, but they felt they didn't want to jeopardize what they are doing. Ryu and Akuma are the closest thing to clones in UMvC3, but ever since ordinary guy got SSJ4 added to his arsenal, not so much. Same framework though, so I'd say they're clones.
Okay the Ghost Rider thing was pure bullshit though. I don't exempt Capcom for that, they are the kings of bullshit in gaming.
It's 2 am, spare me!
Yes, that's what I meant.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Hilariously enough Volnutt and Zero have the similar Mega Buster properties in TvC (save for a few stuff like button held, size, and after effects) yet Capcom had no problems with that. Then again Capcom had no problems with TvC.
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TvC2...
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TvC2...
Your post gave me deja vu of another Smash argument I've had on GAF
But I agree, once again, it goes back to whether you like few niches and more variations vs. more niches and less variations.
Fuck everyone with a Wii who didn't buy TvC.Hilariously enough Volnutt and Zero have the similar Mega Buster properties in TvC (save for a few stuff like button held, size, and after effects) yet Capcom had no problems with that. Then again Capcom had no problems with TvC.
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TvC2...
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*awaits botched TvC XBLA/PSN port that he will blindly buy*
I totally understand that you are saying the devs said that. I'm calling bullshit on them IF that is their rationale. I've seen what they've done with most of the cast (a good job). I'm well aware of the character selection for the past and present roster (has Ryu & Akuma, adds Vergil, etc.). IF "too similar" was the reason for exclusion, than it reeks of either laziness, lack of creativity or straight up lying to the public. None of those things sit well with me. Unless one personally thinks X and Zero are much more similar than any of the pairs I've mentioned (I find it hard to make an objective case for this), I'm not sure how one can agree with the devs assessment.
My apologies if I'm in any way coming off mean or harsh, that is not my intention at all and you have none of my ire.
I agree, to some extent. Without going into too much detail, because this is a smash thread, I feel like at the end of the day they were constrained by resources, I have nothing by praise for Niitsuma's team even though I'm biased as fuck. I think they looked at X and went "well shit we can't half ass this, and he'd require Dante sophistication, so we'll allocate the time and effort to PW and.. I guess Nemesis or something." But really, no one expected X NOT to be in.
Its all good bro, this is a discussion that I feel is valid to have. Nothing came off offensive at all.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Anyway...
They should tweak Final Smashes to make them less of a one-hit killers and more just damage dealers.
They should tweak Final Smashes to make them less of a one-hit killers and more just damage dealers.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
To which I propose a meter for them. And performing evasion etc. will cost some of the meter.
Idk... I've never seen any problem with "spamming" dodges.
I do know there's a problem with spamming ledge-grabs though.
Togglesworlh
Banned
What, you think I was serious? Hah! Yeesh, what the hell, man. That was clearly a facetious comment.
There are still tons of completely unique characters, so I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about. Moreover, I don't know why you keep avoiding the core issue here: clones add gameplay. You act like they don't, but that is factually incorrect. "Oh no it's all graphiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiics." It's not. Not even a little.
Upset? Hah, you've got some wires crossed if you think I'm upset, there, buddy-boy.
I'm ok with clones. >.> but make them more interesting please. Ken, Ryu, Sakurai, Dan, Akuma, and Gouken are all shotos but they are have different personalities and bring something different to the table. When there's multiple characters that are similar and are not unique enough to differentiate them selves it makes the roster look bland in the long run.
Also, I think we can all agree giving 3 characters from the same series the same cheap Final Smash (LAnD MAstEr!) was a pretty lame-ass, boring move.
Also, I think we can all agree giving 3 characters from the same series the same cheap Final Smash (LAnD MAstEr!) was a pretty lame-ass, boring move.
Hilariously enough Volnutt and Zero have the similar Mega Buster properties in TvC (save for a few stuff like button held, size, and after effects) yet Capcom had no problems with that. Then again Capcom had no problems with TvC.
...
TvC2...
Volnutt was fun to watch. Stance changers are awesome.
Now that Xenoblade is getting released globally, I'd say the chances of seeing Shulk (or another Xenoblade character) as a playable are pretty damn good.
Also, we need Bowser's Castle as a stage already. Not getting one in Melee was weird, but not getting one in Brawl was stupid.
Also, we need Bowser's Castle as a stage already. Not getting one in Melee was weird, but not getting one in Brawl was stupid.
If they're smart they can kill two bird with one stone and call it the Mario Kart stage as Bowser's Castle has pretty much become a staple in that series along with Rainbow Road.
Agreed. Most of these ideas are so ridiculous. I was about to dissect his post but realized it'd take forever.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Let's make players rage by having it a horizontal scrolling stage with fireballs firing from the right side, and make it a reminiscent of x-4 stages in SMB.
Shulk for Smash? Yes, I could see him work out very nicely. He's got a good movepool to take from, and his Final Smash pretty much writes itself. "Monadooooo.... BUSTER!" I could also see him with a medium range Monado Purge projectile that does heavy damage to shields. He'd be fun.
For the shotoclone talk, Smash already has a few, had two since Smash 64: Mario and Luigi.
sixteen-bit
Member
Love this pic
Starwolf_UK
Member
I don't know why this has made me want F-Zero Rainbow Road or Phantom Road as a stage...if only for the F-Zero X expansion version of the Rainbow Road music.
I had an idea regarding next SSB, I didn't read all the pages so, nvm if this has already be discussed.
If you remember SSBB music, HAL/Sakurai called many composers even outside Nintendo to remix the classicals themes songs for the Nintendo characters/games. This led to original music in style that doesn't necessary fit with their originals worlds (dark metal Kirby music for example!).
I think an interesting next step will be to do the same thing with the characters themselves.
Instead of picking character design from the previous gen entries for Mario and Zelda games, let an artist draw its own Mario or Link, even outside Nintendo.
For example, instead of Skyward Sword Link, you can have this rendering of A Link to the Past in a top down view of Link that flood the web.
It will be even more interesting to have the same roster on Wii U and 3DS, witht he same gameplay for the characters, but with different art direction/ 3D model. 3DS models can be for example more like portable models (not without cliché, I will say, cell-shading), instead of more sophisticated models on Wii U.
If you remember SSBB music, HAL/Sakurai called many composers even outside Nintendo to remix the classicals themes songs for the Nintendo characters/games. This led to original music in style that doesn't necessary fit with their originals worlds (dark metal Kirby music for example!).
I think an interesting next step will be to do the same thing with the characters themselves.
Instead of picking character design from the previous gen entries for Mario and Zelda games, let an artist draw its own Mario or Link, even outside Nintendo.
For example, instead of Skyward Sword Link, you can have this rendering of A Link to the Past in a top down view of Link that flood the web.
It will be even more interesting to have the same roster on Wii U and 3DS, witht he same gameplay for the characters, but with different art direction/ 3D model. 3DS models can be for example more like portable models (not without cliché, I will say, cell-shading), instead of more sophisticated models on Wii U.
Differences were too minor for me to give a shit. Make these terrible "characters" alt costumes or don't bother with this Capcom bullshit.
Starwolf_UK
Member
So Temple, Pokefloats and New Pork City are the only returning stages? Poor Mother 3 it deserves better.
Also Distant Planet and Green Hill Zone.
Green Mamba
Member
Why so entitled and selfish?
R_thanatos
Member
Wait wait ..you want to prevent players to play like they want ?
i'm not in the tourney thing but i sure know that i want to play this game with friend or with my nephew at various degrees of fun , challenge and difficulty ...
SuperAngelo64
Banned
My wishlist for this game:
-alt costumes for each character.
-Sonic and Snake returning
-new rule sets, like an alternate way to achieve your Final Smash that doesn't revolve around chance, i.e. a gauge that fills up.
-Mash (Glee club kid, and new mascot of the Rhythm Heaven franchise as of Rhythm Heaven Fever) getting some sort of representation like assist trophy.
-Decent online play and easy matchmaking.
That's all I want. Anything else they add is just gravy.
-alt costumes for each character.
-Sonic and Snake returning
-new rule sets, like an alternate way to achieve your Final Smash that doesn't revolve around chance, i.e. a gauge that fills up.
-Mash (Glee club kid, and new mascot of the Rhythm Heaven franchise as of Rhythm Heaven Fever) getting some sort of representation like assist trophy.
-Decent online play and easy matchmaking.
That's all I want. Anything else they add is just gravy.
They should totally get rid of characters just because you don't pay attention...
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