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[Green Mamba]

Wave Dashing was not over powered and analogous to Mario Kart snaking at all. All it does is give you an extra way to move. It's an extra tool of the better players, not a beat absolutely fucking everything trick like Snaking was. Shffling is way more useful and player base splitting than Wave Dashing is--Wave Dashing is just the easy to see celebrity.

And no matter how hard you try to remove player base splitting abilities the better players are always going to beat the less skilled ones unless you go to complete randomization determining the winner and no one likes that but Mario Party players. It's an unattainable vision while still keeping the game fun and I really don't understand why it's seen as a desirable outcome in the first place. Why is removing depth considered a good thing in the Smash fanbase? Why is the Smash fanbase so big on catering to only the lowest common denominator, the kind of people who press the special move button a few times then write off a character completely?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Huh, I always thought wavedashing was a glitch!

 

[Ryce]

Huh, I always thought wavedashing was a glitch!

It was, but the programmers decided to leave it in the game after discovering it.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

It was, but the programmers decided to leave it in the game after discovering it.

Oh so they knew about it before Melee came out?

 

[Ryce]

Oh so they knew about it before Melee came out?

Yeah, I believe Sakurai mentioned it in a magazine interview or something. It was probably too late to fix by the time they found it.

 

[qq more]

Well, that's interesting. How long did it took for the players to discover the bug after the release?

 

[SmithnCo]

Wave Dashing was not over powered and analogous to Mario Kart snaking at all. All it does is give you an extra way to move. It's an extra tool of the better players, not a beat absolutely fucking everything trick like Snaking was. Shffling is way more useful and player base splitting than Wave Dashing is--Wave Dashing is just the easy to see celebrity.

And no matter how hard you try to remove player base splitting abilities the better players are always going to beat the less skilled ones unless you go to complete randomization determining the winner and no one likes that but Mario Party players. It's an unattainable vision while still keeping the game fun and I really don't understand why it's seen as a desirable outcome in the first place. Why is removing depth considered a good thing in the Smash fanbase? Why is the Smash fanbase so big on catering to only the lowest common denominator, the kind of people who press the special move button a few times then write off a character completely?

Let the depth be something that the devs intended, not a trick that gives you a huge advantage over players who don't know it. That's what I meant by referencing snaking. Better players will win, that doesn't mean it has to be a total murder by way of tricks like that.

I'm not opposed to them adding a dash mechanic or whatever, but keep it balanced so that it doesn't widen the gap between hardcore and all other players.

 

[Green Mamba]

I really don't understand how Wave Dashing gives one a "huge" advantage over players that don't know it. Please explain.

 

[Professor Beef]

I really don't understand how Wave Dashing gives one a "huge" advantage over players that don't know it. Please explain.

One player has a better way of moving around the stage than the other. It's not that hard to understand.

 

[SmithnCo]

I really don't understand how Wave Dashing gives one a "huge" advantage over players that don't know it. Please explain.

Being able to perform certain attacks while moving that would normally be performed by standing, and better defensive options. Being able to smash while moving away from the opponent.

It's a "hidden" ability that normal players wouldn't be aware of, and clearly not balanced for normal gameplay. If they kept it like it was in Melee (I have no idea why they would) it would definitely be a large advantage and I somehow doubt Sakurai would want that for this series, especially since it will probably have working online.

Now they could certainly add a "dash" move, but it would hardly be wavedashing or give you the same advantages.

 

[Green Mamba]

If the one player is using Wave Dashing to the point that it is actually outclassing the other player on its own, that's more of the wave dasher simply being a better player than the other, and that player would clearly be winning regardless. No way would Wave Dashing be the single deciding factor.

It is not Snaking. It is not an instant win ability. It's an extra ability that requires extra knowledge to use to your advantage; i.e., it requires the better player.

Why shouldn't the better player be rewarded with victory?

 

[SmithnCo]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be depth, just that the base actions should be straightforward and easy to understand. They can be hard to master and rewarding, just not totally out of the question for beginner players. Wavedashing as it was in Melee is pretty tricky to perform and not told to those players. Based on what Sakurai's team did with Brawl, I seriously doubt they would reinstate wavedashing and other advanced exploits based on the hardcore's desire for them, when the rest of the fighting system is designed to be easy to use.

No, it's not insta-win, but it frustrates players that can't or don't know how to perform it, when another system could easily substitute for it and be easier to use.

 

[BGBW]

Wave dashing led to the Fox Only Final Destination stereotype. It's no surprise it is looked down upon.

 

[Professor Beef]

Wavedashing should make a return, though. You don't see people complaining about abusing movement in Tekken or Marvel.

 

[Green Mamba]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be depth, just that the base actions should be straightforward and easy to understand. They can be hard to master and rewarding, just not totally out of the question for beginner players. Wavedashing as it was in Melee is pretty tricky to perform and not told to those players. Based on what Sakurai's team did with Brawl, I seriously doubt they would reinstate wavedashing and other advanced exploits based on the hardcore's desire for them, when the rest of the fighting system is designed to be easy to use.

No, it's not insta-win, but it frustrates players that can't or don't know how to perform it, when another system could easily substitute for it and be easier to use.

I would argue the removal of features that added depth to the fighting engine (be them intended or unintended) with nothing of value to replace them is precisely what Brawl was designed around, and I really do not want Smash to continue to follow down that path.

The attitude towards Wave Dashing specifically isn't even what really bugs me (I don't even particularly care about it). What I hate is that the discussion of Smash's gameplay has become a zero sum game of false dichotomies--that it simply has to cater to the less hardcore players and no one else because for some reason we have all rewrote history to the point that, apparently, the first two Smash games were not accessible to the non-harcore at all. (Mew2's insinuation is the direct opposite and just as undesirable)

Wave dashing led to the Fox Only Final Destination stereotype. It's no surprise it is looked down upon.

A stereotype that isn't even true.

 

[BGBW]

Stereotypes are born from truths. The idea wasn't plucked out of thin air one day. Smashboards are to blame I'm afraid.

 

[SmithnCo]

Like I said, I just want most of the moves to be easy to use and they can go from there. I have nothing against advanced techniques and combos in other fighting games, where they explain what they are. I would be fine with a wavedash-esque system that could be pulled off with ease and was balanced by the devs, and I should hope it would be if this game has better online options.

A lot about Brawl's gameplay didn't sit right with me but removing wavedashing wasn't one of them, as the base system was still fun enough without it. It was the floatiness that slowed it down for me, if they can tone that down and allow for more move links I'd be fine with it.

 

[Kokonoe]

I've put so many hours in Melee than I care to share, but I actually never do that wave dashing trick and I dislike it. I love wave dashing, but that little trick ruins the fun for me. Good thing the people I played with never used it.

 

[Mr. Fix]

I prefer its poor brother, the DACUS- especially with Snake.

 

[GamerSoul]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be depth, just that the base actions should be straightforward and easy to understand. They can be hard to master and rewarding, just not totally out of the question for beginner players. Wavedashing as it was in Melee is pretty tricky to perform and not told to those players. Based on what Sakurai's team did with Brawl, I seriously doubt they would reinstate wavedashing and other advanced exploits based on the hardcore's desire for them, when the rest of the fighting system is designed to be easy to use.

No, it's not insta-win, but it frustrates players that can't or don't know how to perform it, when another system could easily substitute for it and be easier to use.

It's not really that tricky once you understand what is actually going on. You jump, and then quickly cancelled it with a diagnal air-dodge towards the ground. It's nothing special, imo. And if a player is smart enough to use i beat you with it by using it correctly, they would probably still beat you without it. Who is to say wavedashing wouldn't get you killed if you mindlessly use it and run into smashes and fall of edges hilariously to your doom while trying to look all fancy? (I've seen this happy so many times lol) There's also a lot of responsibilty that comes with it that higher level players really understand so they can get the best out of it. Just as in any fighter.

I don't think wavedashing is going to comeback unless directional air dodging comes back. And if it does they could easily adjust the friction of it so it's not as effective for some characters since it differs depending on the characters. But, directional air dodging is the key imo.

I would mind to see a air dash mechanic being implemented. Maybe if we want to air-dash it''ll take away our last jump but we can still use our recovery move afterwards. Ofcourse it would have to really be balanced and not glitchy at all. This would also gives us an option to fight (air-dash) or flight (air-dodge) at the discretion of the player.

Edit: srry for the english fail. That is pretty hard to read >.> i mean damn.

I prefer its poor brother, the DACUS- especially with Snake.

Wats that?... Dash.cancel...up smash?

 

[Shadow Hog]

They could just add a cooldown to controlling your character if you air-dodge diagonally into the ground so it can't be spammed really quickly over the floor. Would probably look cool if you had to skid pretty far, too.

 

[Red Arremer]

Wats that?... Dash.cancel...up smash?

Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash.

 

[GamerSoul]

Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash.

Gotcha, thank you.

They could just add a cooldown to controlling your character if you air-dodge diagonally into the ground so it can't be spammed really quickly over the floor. Would probably look cool if you had to skid pretty far, too.

Sounds interesting. I don't think Sakurai will add that air-dodging mechanic again because it may have over-complicated thing in his mind. We also don't know yet if Sakurai is ok with adding older gameplay mechanics. He seems to only want to look ahead and that's fine. Honestly, I don't know what he could possibly be thinking to do. From Melee to Brawl, Smash attacks have been kept the same but with the added charging animation. The air mechanics was definitely his focus in Brawl, so idk what he's looking to change this time around. Well, he did change the ground mechanic too with tripping lol so maybe he really wanted us in the air this time. Hopefully it will be the air floatiness because that really slowed things down.

 

[SmithnCo]

What about... air tripping.

...Just kidding. Maybe if there is a dash or added mobility, you could have separate attacks while dashing. I do wonder if they will add more attacks though, or if they will keep the Wii remote style for whatever reason (lol).

 

[GamerSoul]

I wouldn't put it pass Sakurai to put in air-tripping lol.

Air dashing w/ the option to attack would be great. Idk, why i didn't think of that. We already have dash-attacks so it's not out of the realm of possibilities

And I want to believe we could get some more moves with another button input but that doesn't seem what Sakurai wants to do since it would add some real complexity and Smash feel right with what it has right now for inputs, imo. Don't remind me that we won't be using the GC controller. lol. Yea, Sakurai still might want it to be used with all control types.

So the options we might have to add more moves, imo, are:
-Changing stances
-stringing moves together like Marth's side B
-and maybe move customization

 

[Neoriceisgood]

A friend just told me she actually really likes tripping.

 

[ffdgh]

Air tripping already exists.......kinda with luigi's final smash lol.

 

[Kokonoe]

A friend just told me she actually really likes tripping.

She's tripping.

 

[Firestorm]

I liked directional air dodging a lot. It also helped balance quite a few characters out. Too many people bitching due to the once again stupid distinction between intentional and unintentional. If it adds depth, it adds depth. Doesn't matter how. This is another case of complaining about something because it adds options. Just like that Mew2 moron earlier saying items should be removed from the game.

 

[joffocakes]

I like tripping too; it makes the game less predictable and more fun. I've lost a copy of times on account of charging in all confident only to trip and get smashed in the face; it was hilarious and one of my favourite memories of the game.

 

[Satchel]

Hey guys, figured I'd ask here.

I'm culling my game collection, and I'm tossing up between selling off Smash Bros Brawl, or Melee.

I'm trying to think long term here, and I'm not the aficionado of these games, the way all of you are.

Just not sure which one is better to keep. Brawl has more characters and online, but supposedly, Melee plays better. Also, I assume all the same characters from Brawl will be in the Wii U game.

 

[Kokonoe]

I'd say Brawl has the most modes and more things to do, so if that's important to you, get Brawl.

For me personally, the gameplay of Melee is so vastly superior to Brawl that that alone gives it the replay value edge.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

If you personally can't tell the difference, just stick with Brawl. We have no clue how SSB4 will turn out so far, so character cuts aren't a guaranteed thing one way or the other.

Which of the two did you wind up playing more?

 

[fisheyes]

Despite what people on the internet might say, Brawl and Melee aren't all that different, really, especially if you're talking about stashing it and maybe pulling it out and playing it for an hour or two in a few years, in which case I'd keep Brawl since it has all the major Melee characters accounted for as well as a bunch of new guys to muck around with.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Smash 64 still has my favourite gameplay.

 

[Mew2]

I didn't mean take away all the other abilities..I meant pointless moves that make characters broken or useless...(Marios F.L.O.O.D or MetaKnights tornado...)

I love wavedashing because it added to the "other" tier of player and sped the game up! I do want this game taken seriously because it's fun to play a game with characters you love competitively. The only people that take this game seriously were the players.

Any else remember Smash @ Evo or any other fighting game tournament and being made fun of by other fighting game players? I love smash T_T

 

[Snakey]

I preferred Meleee in terms of gameplay, and I am definitely not a competitive player. Brawl was just too floaty and slow. Also, the character I have used for the past three Smash Bros. games, Samus, was pretty much made terrible in Brawl.

However, in terms of the roster and stages, I was very happy with Brawl. Almost every character I was hoping for (Wario, King Dedede, Sonic, Pit, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight, Olimar) were added in as playable characters in Brawl.

Overall, I pretty much rank Melee and Brawl as on par with each other.

For Smash 4, my character hopes are relatively humble (Ridley, Mega Man, Mewtwo, Roy), so I am looking more forward to the shake ups in gameplay that Sakurai has planned than the characters this time.

This will most likely be the last Smash Bros. game I get, so hopefully this one is the best one yet. I have had much less interest in video games for the past several years, and right now, Smash 4 is the only video game that I am looking forward to.

I just hope Smash 4 3DS is not lacking in characters (and possible character DLC) compared to the Wii U version. Its going to be really nice being able to play a Smash Bros. game on the go.

Just five more months until we get a likely Smash 4 unveil. I am expecting Ridley and/or Mega Man as part of the first newcomers confirmed, SO basically all of my newcomer character wishes for Smash 4 could be confirmed from the outset. There is really no one else left for me after that point. For characters not playable in Brawl, it would pretty much just be Mewtwo and Roy, characters who already have been playable in the Smash Bros. franchise. Aside from those two Melee veterans, my hopes is that everyone from Brawl gets brought back (though I would have no problem with Toon Link getting swapped back with Young Link considering they are the same character.

I am just hoping Sakurai makes a statement about character cuts and scrapped character possibly returning early on.

 

[BGBW]

I've seen videos of fighting game communities. I think they need to look at themselves in the mirror long and hard before they start laughing at others.

 

[SmithnCo]

Hey guys, figured I'd ask here.

I'm culling my game collection, and I'm tossing up between selling off Smash Bros Brawl, or Melee.

I'm trying to think long term here, and I'm not the aficionado of these games, the way all of you are.

Just not sure which one is better to keep. Brawl has more characters and online, but supposedly, Melee plays better. Also, I assume all the same characters from Brawl will be in the Wii U game.

I'd keep Melee for long term because I think Brawl only outdoes it for fanservice, of which the eventual WiiU version will probably have more of.

 

[Snakey]

I'd keep Melee for long term because I think Brawl only outdoes it for fanservice, of which the eventual WiiU version will probably have more of.

Yeah. Smash 4 will likely keep all or nearly all of the characters that were in Brawl, and a lot of the stages will come back (or at least the most popular ones).

 

[Satchel]

Yeah I decided I'd keep Brawl.

In all honesty though, I may sell brawl down the line too if the WiiU version is good enough.

thanks for the advice guys.

I actually played Melee more overall, but that was more circumstantial than it being the better game.

when I played them both last night (for the first time in 4 years) Brawl actually felt a bit better to me.

But I'm a noob comparatively speaking on the smash games. I own them all, but rarely play them.

 

[Codeblue]

I liked directional air dodging a lot. It also helped balance quite a few characters out. Too many people bitching due to the once again stupid distinction between intentional and unintentional. If it adds depth, it adds depth. Doesn't matter how. This is another case of complaining about something because it adds options. Just like that Mew2 moron earlier saying items should be removed from the game.

Things can't work like that anymore since online play has been introduced. Wavedashing and other exploits/glitches/mechanics/whatever-you-want-to-call-them can't be turned off and on like any other option.

 

[GamerSoul]

Things can't work like that anymore since online play has been introduced. Wavedashing and other exploits/glitches/mechanics/whatever-you-want-to-call-them can't be turned off and on like any other option.

So do you think Sakurai would actually try to patch or balance some things if and when certain mechanics are found out? I really don't really think so. Whatever we end up with is what we'll have for the rest of the generation. UNLESS, now that I think about it, unless Namco will be helping with that. Because at this rate the WiiU will really be needing Smash so maybe they don't have to find that perfect balance between all the characters right in the beginning. Especially if they're going to add or even retool some of the older cast.

 

[Snakey]

I am curious what you guys think about the topic of character DLC. Do you think it will happen or not?

As I said before, I can see DLC for Smash 4, but character DLC is iffy.

 

[Black-Wind]

I am curious what you guys think about the topic of character DLC. Do you think it will happen or not?

As I said before, I can see DLC for Smash 4, but character DLC is iffy.

It's a HD fighting game from a big 1st and 3rd party ... I can't see DLC not happening.

If anything the only reason I could see it not happening is the fact that Namco likely wants their people working on their IPs asap. And even then it wouldn't take a ton of man power to do a few characters that are set up before release.

 

[qq more]

I don't see any big DLC actually happening. They'll most likely move on to other projects as soon as SSB4 is finished.

 

[SmithnCo]

I don't see any big DLC actually happening. They'll most likely move on to other projects as soon as SSB4 is finished.

That's the hurdle I was thinking about, in the question of DLC. But I guess there's always the possibility, FE Awakening is doing some cool DLC stuff.

 

[Codeblue]

They'll probably just do costumes. I can't imagine they'll start adding characters after Sakurai moves on to his next project.

 

[Red Arremer]

They might do something, like initial DLC they'll work on between finishing the game and its actual release (basically "day 1 DLC"), but I don't think Nintendo will keep Bamco contracted afterwards.

 

[Anth0ny]

I don't see character DLC happening.

Stages, music, costumes? Hell yeah.