IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
And We'll go through whole Smash Cycle under than 3 hours or less.
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
- Start date
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And We'll go through whole Smash Cycle under than 3 hours or less.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
Melee was better -> Death to Lucario ('cause he deifinitely replaced Mewtwo) -> Remove Wolf/Falco -> Ridley'd better be in -> Geno'd better be in -> Pokémon argument #5357 -> Brawl sucks -> Melee was better
Did I miss anything?
Professor Beef
Banned
Brawl is a better package then Melee, but Melee had the better fighting. It's why I constantly shake my head at Project M. They had ONE JOB (putting Melee physics in Brawl), and they fucked it up by going "hey, let's go and change up everyone's moves."
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Oh it's fine.
Chet Rippo
Member
I kinda meant "Officially" like having the thread title changed or whatever
Oh, there will be a new thread when the news hits, no worries about that.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
This is kind of how I feel. I would care about Project M more if they took a more minimalist route and just tried to make Brawl's gameplay more Melee-like. I don't really like how they basically tried to make their own game out of Brawl.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Fire Emblem arguments, Ridley Size Issues, Clones, etc.
I hope that they will have super thread for Dojo update only because it would be silly to have new thread almost every night/morning.
I thought we were above targeting like this.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I'm mocking stereotypes, not targeting. I have no problem with fans of Melee or Mewtwo.
I feel the only thing Project M nailed is speed, everything else was just meh.
astarisborn94
Member
Smash 4 will be the beginning of idiotgeddon from fans. Smashboards will enter into hell's territory (it's okay now, but things will get horrible once people who have no idea what they're talking about makes up the majority of that thread). NeoGAFs will be somewhat of a haven for SSB4 discussion.
- Will third-parties return (assuming one fails to show up at E3)?
- Will Snake and Sonic return?
- Will cuts occur?
I also look forward to Sakurai's commentary on the new things he introduces in the trailer. Hopefully it can beat Brawl's epic E3 2006 trailer because Nintendo needs to give everything they got to win back fans.
I'm also curious about several things about characters:GamerSoul said:
- Will third-parties return (assuming one fails to show up at E3)?
- Will Snake and Sonic return?
- Will cuts occur?
I also look forward to Sakurai's commentary on the new things he introduces in the trailer. Hopefully it can beat Brawl's epic E3 2006 trailer because Nintendo needs to give everything they got to win back fans.
Green Mamba
Member
I really hope a confirmation on Snake and Sonic is made really early on, positive or negative, because I don't want to sit through an awful "will they or won't they" with them considering what unknowns they are.
EDIT: I also really hope we aren't drip fed no-brainer veterans like Donkey Kong and Yoshi like we were with Brawl.
EDIT: I also really hope we aren't drip fed no-brainer veterans like Donkey Kong and Yoshi like we were with Brawl.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I want them to give the answer on status of snake and sonic this E3, but I'm sure that they wouldn't.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
oh lord the memories of talking to some people assuming DK was cut and Yoshi was demoted to item-status because of the 2006 trailer are flooding back
Can we just safely assume everybody in SSB64 is untouchable now? If Ness/Jigglypuff were going to get the boot, they would have by now but haven't.
Choppasmith
Member
Reminds me of a feature in the One Piece Grand Battle where you could unlock character announcers, that would be cool.
Also, I'd say Palutena and Takamaru are my most anticipated newcomers. I want to believe in Mega Man, but I just don't have the faith to believe, unless Sakurai himself is gunning for him.
If those questions aren't answered in the trailer, I hope Sakurai will answer them shortly there after. No reason to hide that from us. And if there's anybody who could create a trailer to top Brawl's it's Sakurai. I hate to keep repeating this but nintendo could really benefit from Smash having a great showing along with their other reveals.
I wouldn't be so sure about Jigglypuff. Game data from Brawl suggests that she may have been a late addition to the game, so it's likely that she was almost cut.
astarisborn94
Member
If Snake and Sonic are cut and it isn't announced until close to release, I'll be pretty mad at Sakurai. Not because of the cuts themselves (due to third-party status, I can understand), but having to listen to a bunch of whiny fanboys complain to seemingly no end about how it "ruins the game" and this is coming from someone who really wants Snake and Sonic back. It'd be inevitable either way, but forcing us to wait until such close release would only make things worse.
Palutena and Takamaru will probably be revealed at E3, so you may have less than a month's waiting left.
Mega Man is a more difficult question to answer due to third-party status and Capcom not contacting Sakurai about Mega Man for Smash (although I doubt they would be against having Mega Man in), but if Sakurai is going to go after any third-party, it will almost certainly be Mega Man. With Mega Man probably being the most wanted newcomer for the next game and being popular ever since the pre-Melee days according to Sakurai, I think there's a good chance that Sakurai will pursue Mega Man's inclusion (assuming third-parties return).
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
I bet we'll know what the deal with Sonic and Snake is by the time the trailer is shown. I'm sure they'll be in the first trailer, and if they aren't, Sakurai or someone will probably just come out and say they aren't in the game.
I think that was the original plan, but some of the moves in Brawl just didn't with Melee physics.
I still think Melee is the better package than Brawl. Brawl has quantity. More stages. More characters. More music. More modes. Longer single player.
Melee is all about quality. Melee's fully orchestrated soundtrack, versus Brawl's soundtrack that consists mostly of tracks ripped straight from their original game. Brawl's forgettable, bland, Adventure mode that was horribly paced versus Melee's short and sweet Adventure mode that *shock* had stages from memorable Nintendo games! Melee's break the targets is superior. Melee's had more event matches, and they were better (Giga Bowser/Mewtwo/Ganondorf in the final Melee event match versus... Giant Mario/Snake/Sonic in the final Brawl event match? the fuck?)
I'm not even going to get into the competitive side of things. Brawl is an unbalanced mess, unfortunately. Versus Melee, a metagame that is still evolving to this very day.
It still blows my mind how rushed Brawl feels when I go back and look at it. Even after two delays. I get the feeling they dedicated a TON of resources to SSE, and stuff like Event Matches, Break the Targets, and hitbox testing (hello Snake's up tilt) suffered as a result. I pray to Sakurai that they've learned from this experience and realize that single player in a Smash Bros game isn't worth all that work.
As for character cutting in Smash 4... I think the original 12 are safe at this point, even Jiggs and Ness.
The better question is... will Sheik make the cut?
sakurai pls ; _ ;
astarisborn94
Member
I have a hard time seeing Snake and Sonic at E3 even if they do return. I don't expect us to get more than one third-party character in the trailer and I think Sakurai will focus on a new third-party rather than a veteran. Snake and Sonic will probably be Dojo reveals or held back until the end.
Hopefully they'll relegate the story to the 3DS version since that's going to be more single-player and keep the "story" mode in the Wii-U version to something similar to Melee. More humor in the story would be nice as well.
I wouldn't worry about Sheik getting cut. There really isn't any reasons for Sheik to go at this point and many more people prefer Sheik over Impa at any time (who is semi-commonly suggested as Sheik's replacement for flimsy reasons).
RawkHawk2010
Member
Yeah, Brawl's Break the Targets is completely useless. It's supposed to be a mode that measures your efficiency with a specific character, which is thrown out the window when you make a generic stage that's supposed to accommodate for 39 different moving and attacking styles. And don't even get me started on Homerun Contest. I know Melee had exploits to break it, but adding walls? That's defeating the entire point!
I like Brawl, but every single-player attraction in the game was a mess.
I like Brawl, but every single-player attraction in the game was a mess.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I disagree on music. Melee suffered from being all "orchestrated" that it doesn't fit the action theme of the game. And sure Brawl has some "ripped" music, but it has better music in general. For instance, it has the best Pokemon Theme.
Also, I disagree on Melee's adventure mode... if only because it has like... 3 real adventure modes (Link maze, Mario stage, and the explosion part of Metroid). The rest are just essentially Classic Mode.
And Brawl actually took time to make sure their characters play differently, even the clone ones, unlike Melee's intentional copy paste job.
Thank you for expressing my grief on that game, beef.
Instead of "mod Brawl to have Melee physics", it's "let's change Brawl into the Smash fandom dick-waving material and show those folks whose boss because I have better ideas!"
Also, I disagree on Melee's adventure mode... if only because it has like... 3 real adventure modes (Link maze, Mario stage, and the explosion part of Metroid). The rest are just essentially Classic Mode.
And Brawl actually took time to make sure their characters play differently, even the clone ones, unlike Melee's intentional copy paste job.
Thank you for expressing my grief on that game, beef.
Instead of "mod Brawl to have Melee physics", it's "let's change Brawl into the Smash fandom dick-waving material and show those folks whose boss because I have better ideas!"
RawkHawk2010
Member
Speaking of music, I still have no idea what Smash 4 is gonna do for its soundtrack.
As tempting as it might be to fill a lot of the slots with Brawl's top songs, I want the soundtrack to be as new as possible so that things don't feel too "retready." But a lot of Nintendo's most memorable songs were remixed to what seems like absolute perfection in Brawl, so I can't help but fear that we may be reaching the point of diminishing returns in that area...
I guess we'll see.
As tempting as it might be to fill a lot of the slots with Brawl's top songs, I want the soundtrack to be as new as possible so that things don't feel too "retready." But a lot of Nintendo's most memorable songs were remixed to what seems like absolute perfection in Brawl, so I can't help but fear that we may be reaching the point of diminishing returns in that area...
I guess we'll see.
True. They need to bring back individual target tests, those were great in teaching you how to use each character and try out their different mobility options and attacks. I wouldn't mind platforms coming back either but those were basically a target variation.
Death to Lucario.
Choppasmith
Member
I noticed when playing Uprising that all the composers for the soundtrack also did stuff for Brawl. I was thinking, get the same group together with maybe a couple of the HAL composers like Shogo Sakai and make as much of the music using a live orchestra as possible like Melee, and throw in some unlockable original tracks like Brawl.
About the music, I hope they let the player choose which songs do they want to hear in each stage from all the soundtrack.
In Brawl, for example, they hoarded all the Kirby songs in the Halberd when some of them were more fitting of other stages: Frozen Hillside in the Summit or Nature Area in Green Greens. And there are cases of strange music selection: Two Vs. Ridley songs in Frigate Orpheon and zero in Norfair.
That isn't much to ask, isn't it?
In Brawl, for example, they hoarded all the Kirby songs in the Halberd when some of them were more fitting of other stages: Frozen Hillside in the Summit or Nature Area in Green Greens. And there are cases of strange music selection: Two Vs. Ridley songs in Frigate Orpheon and zero in Norfair.
That isn't much to ask, isn't it?
The melee purists, or the tourny happy people make up a small percentage of the people who actually buy smash bros. Their opinions in the end are kind of meaningless.
NeonZ
Member
So, somehow, throwing extra tracks on top of the remixes is a problem? Melee fans bitter about Brawl are funny.
Also, regarding event matches, don't forget that they also added co-op event matches, which were a separate set from the single player ones, and had those difficulty variations. Those two additions by themselves show why there were less single player event matches. It had nothing to do with external factors, but a change of focus of the mode's design.
I really don't think Subspace Emissary was the main issue there. Level design was mostly outsourced if you look at the credits, it also didn't share assets with the main game so it likely was mostly moved independently - only the Halberd appears there, and it's also one of the earliest created assets for the game. Item positioning was mostly random.
Aside from health recovery, no part of SSE ever seemed to take specific items into account for its design, or even specific abilities of any character (the closest thing to that being some areas designed for wall jumps). I get the impression that SSE was specifically designed in a way that its development wouldn't be a roadblock for the main game and characters, and the other way around too. Nothing in the main game was tied to SSE. They didn't even include SSE locations are multiplayer stages. I think that's why the level design ended up so generic.
Of course, that's gameplay-wise, I really don't understand why they didn't go with obvious Nintendo themes for the stage designs anyway, even if they were different from the multiplayer stage - there's this one area that's a florest with dark and yellow versions, and changes in one side affect another. It seems obviously based on the Lost Woods from Zelda, but it's never named as such or use any design that comes specifically from Zelda. Or how about when Bowser's secret fortress is discovered with tons of his troops and... it's just a... random cave - which is filled with his troops, but has absolutely no background design based on the Mario games? Or the Ice Climbers' debut stage which is a very high vertical scrolling level in a frozen montain... but it's just a random frozen montain in spite of the obvious inspiration on their game.
Sheik stayed even after being phased out of Zelda. Nothing has changed since then.
Summit wasn't a Kirby stage though, and Green Greens was considered a classic stage, so it only had classic bgms... Halberd got all the songs because it was the only new Kirby stage in the game.
I do not see how its a problem. Orchestrating the songs on the sonic and snake stages would have ruined them.
They redid what was necessary.
Sonic's selection was pure laziness. The only arrangement wasn't even made for the game, but was some a music CD Sega released. Part of the appeal is to hear recognisable songs in a new way. I don't need to hear Green Hill Zone played in the same way again. Where's the fun in that? Orchestral is the easy way to go (which is why is it often requested), but seeing as many soundtracks already have an orchestral flair I'd like to see other genres get represented.
I just do not agree.
It would have ruined that stage. Why even orchestrate live and learn. Why would you even do that.
The only musical issue I have with the game is .
1) why didn't they use the version of snake eater with words
2) why didn't they use the long version of snake eater with words.
I know why the music selection was made the way it was but I'd have preferred having certain themes in other stages because they fit better there even if they aren't from the same series. That's why I want them to allow more options in that aspect.
Did you even read my last bit? I said I didn't just want orchestral music. They could make a jazzy rendition of Live and Learn, maybe salsa or god forbid dubstep. In my opinion Live and Learn (and most of the Sonic collection) didn't suit the stage in their non arranged form and really should have been arranged.
Or as Fire Emblem's theme clearly demonstrated all songs should be done in Latin Opera.
Habes hic valere
Custodite spiritum vestrum vivere certamine habes
Et reliquit nihil sentiant et ut pro
At prompta proelia facit super nos
Ego sentire vim sentire
Cum eum cogito,
Timor non video, nihil dolere
Aeterna heros ille erit mihi
(Melius credatis novit iter)
Et non tantum pro hac nocte,
Et iam non sum somniare
(Et ego scio quod got suus obtinuit)
Et non tantum pro hac nocte,
NeonZ
Member
I really don't see how there wasn't thought put into them. It's not like you got tracks of different series randomly mixed together, aside from some specific exceptions that generally made sense, like some system bgms in that pictochat stage.
I guess the selection of track remixes vs original bgms compared to the stages was kind of random - like how we didn't get a Mario Sunshine remix in spite of having a Sunshine stage, but that's not really any better in Melee. Melee had no theme from Majora's Mask in spite of the Majora stage, had mixed up the bgms of the Star Fox stages, had no Mario 64 themes, among other things. In fact, that's why I kind of prefer Brawl's take. Even if they aren't remixes, I like having the correct themes as options.
Don't forget that Sonic's entire inclusion was made late into development. If anything, Sonic (and his stage) by themselves were one of the main reasons for the delays. I guess the composers for Brawl's remixes were contacted before Sonic's inclusion was decided.
Well take for example the Map screen/Bonus Room music from Donkey Kong Country. Not only does it not suit the fighting game mood (let alone the fact that stage is pretty frantic), but the transition is terrible. Now you could point out that it is actually a very clever song because in Donkey Kong Land the map screen uses the Bonus Room music from Donkey Kong Country, but at the end of the day it is still a poor choice.
I'd have to listen to the soundtrack again to remember exactly which tunes I felt felt out of place, but I just feel that the soundtrack would have benefitted from being smaller but more focused. When, as you said, Super Mario Sunshine's stage didn't even get an arrangement from the game it is based on you start to wonder what happened behind the scenes.
At least we got awesome stuff like this.
I'd have to listen to the soundtrack again to remember exactly which tunes I felt felt out of place, but I just feel that the soundtrack would have benefitted from being smaller but more focused. When, as you said, Super Mario Sunshine's stage didn't even get an arrangement from the game it is based on you start to wonder what happened behind the scenes.
At least we got awesome stuff like this.
NeonZ
Member
I can't look at the site right now because I'm at work, but I think the original announcement about all the people working on the remixes for Brawl kind of implied that they chose what they were going to do, which is likely why the remixes sometimes don't line up with the stage selection.
Green Mamba
Member
I always thought it was funny in a sad way how people kept wanting them to bring Board the Platforms back in Brawl and not only did they end up not bringing it back, but they dropped Race to the Finish as well and severely neutered Break the Targets.
ScraftyDevil
Banned
I was joking. I don't have anything against any particular group of Smash fans, and I just tune out the ones whose opinions I don't care for.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Hahahah Goku
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
GOKU 4 BRAWL
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
They must bring character specific Break the Targets if they didn't then it will be crime.
I'm so against Goku being in SSB4.
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