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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition

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Revven

Member
Impa can inherit her skills but they have the opportunity to make her very different from Zelda as well.

Sheik... is already different from Zelda, so I don't really understand the point you're making here...?


Yeah Sheik not being in is terrible but giving a similar, cooler, character some attention is more terrible. Hmm.

Lucario 'replaced' Mewtwo, who was also seen as a similar, 'cooler', character to some people. I don't recall people ever liking the end result of it despite how many fans, initially, were clamoring for the idea of it to happen (because it sounded 'right', doesn't mean it was right).



Also, Impa has been around as a character far longer than Sheik has. Even in the strictest sense, the Sheikah version was seen earlier in OoT. :p

Eh, I just think that 'removing' Sheik is like removing part of Zelda. I mean, if they go with the SS Zelda then whatever I understand why Sheik wouldn't be in the game (though she could very well be as simply a different slot, freeing up a Down B for Zelda and Sheik to use).

It just doesn't sit right with me to be replacing characters with other characters just for the sake of 'attention'. Keep the old characters, it's a sequel, everyone knows it is, so there's absolutely no excuse to axe characters at all. Sakurai has the move sets, all he has to do is smooth the animations, hitboxes, change some stats around to fit whatever physics engine he's working on and what kind of 'balance' he wants and then a new model. It wouldn't be too much work other than rigging the animations to the new model.

Axe someone and you make a whole bunch of people upset, I don't think we need that again ala Mewtwo, Roy, Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link. 'Clones' (seriously hate this term, you have to play the characters differently because of the way their moves work) or not, a character is a character and this is a fighting game and I feel they should be trying to have as many old characters as they can all the while adding as many new characters as they can (making reaching that 50 character mark much easier in the process).
 
guys

sheik is zelda's down b

she ain't going anywhere

at most, impa will be a sheik clone.

Frees up a move slot on both Zelda and Impa. Sakurai loves creating new moves for established characters.

I'd like to see FLUDD removed from Mario. It should be replaced with a butt-stop, since that is his most iconic move.

I like the Ganondorf/Black Shadow compromise, but if that doesn't happen I'd at least like Pig Ganon as an alternative.

I'd really like to see Captain N in this game. His chances aren't great, because he's solely known in the west and hasn't appeared in an actual game, but he is owned by Nintendo and fits incredibly well into the Smash Bros. concept. They could even have him fight alongside the Valiant Comics version of the N-Team in Subspace Emissary. Since the comic didn't use 3rd party characters, Simon and MegaMan were replaced on teh team by Samus.
 

Triton55

Member
I think they will probably have Impa instead of Sheik but with a similar moveset, unless Zelda Wii U comes out before Smash 4. For her Down+B Zelda gets on her knees and quickly prays, summoning Impa to take her place. I wouldn't consider it cutting Sheik so much as updating the character in the same way Young Link was replaced by Toon Link.
 

Revven

Member
I'd like to see FLUDD removed from Mario. It should be replaced with a butt-stop, since that is his most iconic move.

I don't know, it'd be better to give him the spin jump from the Galaxy games, as it would at least help him recover (where right now he's mostly lacking in to begin with). You could make the ground pound his down air instead that way (since tornado as down air is awful...)
 

MAtgS

Member
Jorok Goldblade said:
I'd really like to see Captain N in this game. His chances aren't great, because he's solely known in the west and hasn't appeared in an actual game, but he is owned by Nintendo and fits incredibly well into the Smash Bros. concept. They could even have him fight alongside the Valiant Comics version of the N-Team in Subspace Emissary. Since the comic didn't use 3rd party characters, Simon and MegaMan were replaced on teh team by Samus.
*sigh* I wish. Captain N gets Aquaman levels of unfair hate. However I think if he were in, he would have to be updated with more recent hardware, like the Wii Zapper instead of NES zapper.

Of course if MM & Simon do join the roster, all the better.
 
I don't know, it'd be better to give him the spin jump from the Galaxy games, as it would at least help him recover (where right now he's mostly lacking in to begin with). You could make the ground pound his down air instead that way (since tornado as down air is awful...)

I'm cool with that, too. Just get in some of his clasic moves instead of call backs to teh lesss loved games in the series.

*sigh* I wish. Captain N gets Aquaman levels of unfair hate. However I think if he were in, he would have to be updated with more recent hardware, like the Wii Zapper instead of NES zapper.

Of course if MM & Simon do join the roster, all the better.

That should be Retro's next project. Forget Star Tropics- a Captain N action RPG with various Nintendo peripherals as equipment. Have a competition with Sakurai to see who can create the best fan service game.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Sheik... is already different from Zelda, so I don't really understand the point you're making here...?
SS Impa has a different body shape and could be even tougher than what people expect from Sheik. Not every Zelda has to be Sheik just because one Zelda was Sheik once.

Plus, it might be fun to see Impa or Zelda watching the other fight as a tag team, like Pokemon Trainer.

Lucario 'replaced' Mewtwo, who was also seen as a similar, 'cooler', character to some people. I don't recall people ever liking the end result of it despite how many fans, initially, were clamoring for the idea of it to happen (because it sounded 'right', doesn't mean it was right).
Mewtwo is an entirely different character. If whatever replaced him was a maybe an evolution of Mewtwo (or a lighter version in the form of Mew!), that would've been acceptable.

Lucario is a Fighting/Steel type. They made him slightly different, but that they fought similarly at all was an error.

Mewtwo was also undisputedly the ultimate Pokemon of the original series, and ultimate antagonist in the Stadium games. Lucario has never had such a high position in the franchise.

Impa has been Zelda's handmaiden since the original. She is as much a staple of the series as the Triforce holders.

Eh, I just think that 'removing' Sheik is like removing part of Zelda. I mean, if they go with the SS Zelda then whatever I understand why Sheik wouldn't be in the game (though she could very well be as simply a different slot, freeing up a Down B for Zelda and Sheik to use).

It just doesn't sit right with me to be replacing characters with other characters just for the sake of 'attention'. Keep the old characters, it's a sequel, everyone knows it is, so there's absolutely no excuse to axe characters at all. Sakurai has the move sets, all he has to do is smooth the animations, hitboxes, change some stats around to fit whatever physics engine he's working on and what kind of 'balance' he wants and then a new model. It wouldn't be too much work other than rigging the animations to the new model.

Axe someone and you make a whole bunch of people upset, I don't think we need that again ala Mewtwo, Roy, Pichu, Dr. Mario, Young Link. 'Clones' (seriously hate this term, you have to play the characters differently because of the way their moves work) or not, a character is a character and this is a fighting game and I feel they should be trying to have as many old characters as they can all the while adding as many new characters as they can (making reaching that 50 character mark much easier in the process).
I'm bringing up Impa because we're discussing characters, but since it's getting to be about dramatic roster changes, I want to add the following.

I don't want Smash 4 to be yet another revision of Melee's engine. The best way to make Smash Bros. 4 feel like a complete package is to rebuild it from the ground up, much like the jump from SSB 64 to Melee.

They need to re-build the characters from scratch. No modifying assets and move data from Melee/Brawl.

SSB 64 and Melee's characters referred to the characters as they were in their latest games. Some of Brawl's character problems are beyond its control (as they're reliant on Nintendo's actual game output).

Some things I would suggest they do are:

-Replace Samus with the Fusion version of Samus, as she's the latest canonical version
-Re-model Marth based on his DS game
-No arbitrary 'new characters', ie. a non-existant version of Sheik
-No arbitrary moves, ie. give Ness PK Rockin rather than Starstorm
-Demise/Ganondorf should get his own sword moveset and doesn't need to be a Captain Falcon derivative anymore

Speaking of Ness, yeah, he doesn't learn some/most of the moves he knows in SSB, but he has less of a chance of Paula or Poo appearing, and no later Earthbound games expand on his potential abilities. That's when some changes can be acceptable.

I think Brawl is a worth successor to Melee, but I can't disagree that it's full of cracks. In a fanservice game, the cracks are even more apparent. I'm saying that relying on old iterations of the game and assets will make it a worse product. Brawl almost got away with it because everyone was expecting a refinement of Melee, when it should've been its own cohesive package.

If they have ideas like SS's Impa/Demise/
Right-Handed
Link, they should run with them.
 
Lucario 'replaced' Mewtwo, who was also seen as a similar, 'cooler', character to some people. I don't recall people ever liking the end result of it despite how many fans, initially, were clamoring for the idea of it to happen (because it sounded 'right', doesn't mean it was right).

I was mad at first since I mained Mewtwo, but then I actually used Lucario and wasn't mad anymore because Lucario outclassed Mewtwo in every conceivable way.
 

Snakey

Member
I was mad at first since I mained Mewtwo, but then I actually used Lucario and wasn't mad anymore because Lucario outclassed Mewtwo in every conceivable way.

I don't care that Mewtwo was bottom tier in Melee. I liked Mewtwo as a character, and prefer him vastly over Lucario. However, I definitely think that Mewtwo and Lucario can co-exist.

However, Zoroark looks like some guy at deviantart's take on a "dark" Lucario.
 
No. There is a very good chance the Star Fox series is going to be rebooted, which will erase Krystal from existence.
Citation needed?

Where has it been said that SF would be rebooted and exclude characters pass a certain point?

I'm not saying they should REMOVE Sheik. Sheik can be echoed through Impa's Sheikah arts.

Impa can inherit her skills but they have the opportunity to make her very different from Zelda as well.

Yeah Sheik not being in is terrible but giving a similar, cooler, character some attention is more terrible. Hmm.

Also, Impa has been around as a character far longer than Sheik has. Even in the strictest sense, the Sheikah version was seen earlier in OoT. :p
Pretty much what I'm saying.

Impa has had a constant role in the series as Zelda's care giver, teacher, protector and even guilds/ mentors both Zelda and Link in SS ... Logically she should be the ninja stand in counter part to Zelda instead of a One-Off alter ego from one game 10 years ago.

BUT, I could also see them doing something different ...
Instead of forcing SS Zelda to have OoT moves they could just make her "Skyward Zelda" with Skyward moves and make Impa her stand-in/ transformation.
But we all know how Sakurai rolls ... so they would just be clones of Zelda. Which is why I would think just replacing Sheik would be the easier blow.

Oh, and I find it funny how people seem to count "slots" ... pokemon may have 4 slots on the screen in brawl but it CLEARLY has 6 unique characters with their own move-sets where as Zelda may have 4 slots on the screen but it only has 3 Unique move-sets between them. And regardless Sakurai counts all slotted/ non-slotted characters as characters.
 
I was mad at first since I mained Mewtwo, but then I actually used Lucario and wasn't mad anymore because Lucario outclassed Mewtwo in every conceivable way.

I love using Mewtwo and despise using Lucario, i'm still kind of miffed myself.
Plus Lucario feels wrong to me, it's supposed to be a fighting steel type but instead it feels like they were using mewtwo as a base to work from instead.
 

Snakey

Member
Citation needed?

Where has it been said that SF would be rebooted and exclude characters pass a certain point?

There are two reasons why a reboot is possible:
1. Due to Star Fox Command not having a "true ending".
2. Due to a strong demand by the Star Fox fanbase for the storyline to be rebooted.

The fact that post-64 Star Fox games are received like post-Dreamcast Sonic games, makes a reboot even more attractive. There also has not been a true new game for Star Fox since 2006, and with the only recent game being a remake of 64, a new continuity taking place after 64 would be a good idea.
 

Revven

Member
I was mad at first since I mained Mewtwo, but then I actually used Lucario and wasn't mad anymore because Lucario outclassed Mewtwo in every conceivable way.

Fallacy here, Mewtwo can be made better, Lucario being 'better' is just because Sakurai actually made Lucario unlike how Mewtwo was and made sure his move set actually worked with his physics. Fact is, Sakurai could definitely make Mewtwo better if he's put in a new game.

This is a scapegoat for continuing to exclude Mewtwo. It was a terrible argument to remove the character and it's a terrible argument to keep him out of the series even now.
 
I love using Mewtwo and despise using Lucario, i'm still kind of miffed myself.
Plus Lucario feels wrong to me, it's supposed to be a fighting steel type but instead it feels like they were using mewtwo as a base to work from instead.
It's kind of in-character, since Lucario's defense stats are pretty abysmal. :I
Fallacy here, Mewtwo can be made better, Lucario being 'better' is just because Sakurai actually made Lucario unlike how Mewtwo was and made sure his move set actually worked with his physics. Fact is, Sakurai could definitely make Mewtwo better if he's put in a new game.

This is a scapegoat for continuing to exclude Mewtwo. It was a terrible argument to remove the character and it's a terrible argument to keep him out of the series even now.
I didn't say I was happy about Mewtwo being cut. I was just happy that Lucario was better than Mewtwo.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
hey gais what about iron fist he's so cool

chi attacks plus spirit of the dragon plus flying kicks
 

Mr Swine

Banned
So what are the chances of Sonic being in this game too and possibly Eggman as a playable character? I hope there are a few more bad guys this time around!
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
So what are the chances of Sonic being in this game too and possibly Eggman as a playable character? I hope there are a few more bad guys this time around!

I would like to keep sonic as only sega character, but nothing's personal. I want more characters from nintendo that deserve a spot.

Dr.Eggman would be very interesting boss for single player if they are going to work on many dimension from nintendo and third party universe.
 

Snakey

Member
Mega Man is the only third-party newcomer that is needed. There is no other third-party character that I think is widely requested.
 

Snakey

Member
*coughGenocough*

Did you just ignore the past several pages of people ripping Geno?

There are other characters that much more requested than Geno from the Mario series. Toad, Paper Mario, and Bowser Jr. Geno is less requested than all three of those characters.

He is simply a character with a cult.
 

Snakey

Member
Who asked for ROB or Wolf?

The situation for third-parties is different than for characters that Nintendo owns. Also, secondly Wolf was a very popularly requested character for years, and one of the most wanted newcomer for Brawl (heck, there was a strong demand for him to be in Melee).

There are only two ways in which third-party characters get in:

1. A personal request by the developer to place their character in (this is how Snake got in).

2. Overwhelming requests by the fans for a particular third-party character to get in (this is how Sonic got in).
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
Did you just ignore the past several pages of people ripping Geno?

There are other characters that much more requested than Geno from the Mario series. Toad, Paper Mario, and Bowser Jr. Geno is less requested than all three of those characters.

He is simply a character with a cult.

I remembered Geno being spammed by many people during Brawl development. More than Toad and Bowser Jr. I used to be member of Nintendo Insider, so forgive me.

I am grateful for nintendo insider or I wouldn't find this place in first place

Edited: I really want Geno in Brawl, but his time is up so I already moved on. If he make an appearance then I will be happy but I have no hope for him for SSB4. Yeah, I do agreed with you that Geno being cult character because Super Mario RPG made a huge impact on most of our childhood gaming. It's one of first few rp game for me to complete and allowed me to understand how rpg work, which lead me to more rpg.
 

Snakey

Member
I remembered Geno being spammed by many people during Brawl development. More than Toad and Bowser Jr. I used to be member of Nintendo Insider, so forgive me. [/spoiler]

You just answered your own question to why you think Geno was popularly requested. It was simply a bunch of fanatics banging a lot of garbage cans.
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
You just answered your own question to why you think Geno was popularly requested. It was simply a bunch of fanatics banging a lot of garbage cans.

Actually, I recalled that there is poll where Geno was placed in top 10 right? I think it is the same poll that people voted for characters to be in Brawl.
 

Snakey

Member
Actually, I recalled that there is poll where Geno was placed in top 10 right? I think it is the same poll that people voted for characters to be in Brawl.

You are confused. For one you are thinking of Sakurai's journal, which was certainly not a poll. Geno's name came up three or four times in that series of entries by fans, of which Sakurai published HUNDREDS of.

Geno was never as popularly requested as you believed him to be. It was merely that the Geno fanbase was very fanatical and loud.
 

Snakey

Member
ROB is actually a historical character.

Also... you're doubting Wolf's popularity? Hahahahaha!

I have been active in the Smash Bros. fandom since I heard of the game's announcement in 1998. Wolf was popularly requested character even for Melee, and was the most wanted Star Fox character for Brawl.

ROB represents the last of Nintendo's toy-making legacy, and Gunpei Yokoi's contributions to Nintendo.
 
ROB is actually a historical character.

That nobody thought to ask for.

Also... you're doubting Wolf's popularity? Hahahahaha!

Honestly he seems like an assist trophy character at best.

I have been active in the Smash Bros. fandom since I heard of the game's announcement in 1998. Wolf was popularly requested character even for Melee, and was the most wanted Star Fox character for Brawl.

Because there aren't any other good Star Fox characters?
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
That nobody thought to ask for.

Honestly he seems like an assist trophy character at best.

Considering that Smash isn't just about popularity and also about iconic stuff, ROB gets a right to be in much more so than third party characters.

And Wolf's been begged since Melee. Honestly I'm glad he appeared in Brawl instead of Melee (he'll end up being a clone). I'm glad they took their time and actually made him play differently.

Because there aren't any other good Star Fox characters?

Krystal isn't a good Star Fox character. The rest are negligible. You know who fits as a trophy character? Slippy, Peppy or Rob.
 

Snakey

Member
That nobody thought to ask for.

Sakurai has a long history of including characters people never asked for. Just look at Ice Climbers and M.r Game & Watch in Melee. Sakurai has even gone on the record to say that only including characters that were "popular" would be "boring".

Honestly he seems like an assist trophy character at best.

That is your opinion, and a minority one at that.

Because there aren't any other good Star Fox characters?

You are correct about this one. Now that Fox, Falco, and Wolf are in, there are not any more Star Fox characters that merit playable status, especially when you look at the current state to the series, and how the latest game was a remake of Star Fox 64.
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
You are confused. For one you are thinking of Sakurai's journal, which was certainly not a poll. Geno's name came up three or four times in that series of entries by fans, of which Sakurai published HUNDREDS of.

Geno was never as popularly requested as you believed him to be. It was merely that the Geno fanbase was very fanatical and loud.

Ah, I see. Like I said,I already moved on but dont need to be sour about it if I was confused by the poll because many people pointed at the poll as sign how many charcters from top 10 got in SSBB. I was not sure but thanks for clarifying it for me.
 

Snakey

Member
Ah, I see. Like I said,I already moved on but dont need to be sour about it if I was confused by the poll because many people pointed at the poll as sign how many charcters from top 10 got in SSBB. I was not sure but thanks for clarifying it for me.

No problem. Lots of people have confused Sakurai's journal entries (of which he publishes fan opinions on a variety of things pertaining to Smash Bros. and comments on some of them) as being a poll. For example, one of the journal entries was a Smash fan talking about how they met their wife through Smash Bros. and they now have a kid, and Sakurai said congratulations and joked that they should name their second kid DX (Japanese name for Melee).
 
*sigh* I wish. Captain N gets Aquaman levels of unfair hate. However I think if he were in, he would have to be updated with more recent hardware, like the Wii Zapper instead of NES zapper.
Come to think of it what is the fate of the Super Scope, then again that was like a bazooka while the Zapper is a tommy gun so I guess they co-exist. I guess also the Wii U Zapper as a turret could work.

A modern Captain N would be interesting but I can almost see them going in a parody direction like Tingle kind of is.

There also has not been a true new game for Star Fox since 2006, and with the only recent game being a remake of 64, a new continuity taking place after 64 would be a good idea.
Vibe I got from the Iwata asks was that it was a reboot there and then and if it didn't get a lot of new players it was clear the franchise was stagnant and needs more time to rest. We'll only know how well it did if we ever see another game in the franchise.

Needless request: I hope Wolf's Black Costume takes off the Starfox 2 design (no eyepatch, black leather jacket).
 

GamerSoul

Member
guys

sheik is zelda's down b

she ain't going anywhere

at most, impa will be a sheik clone.

I have always wanted OoT Impa to be in the next Smash so using the new Impa would work for me hah. OoT Impa would have been like a stronger, slower Sheik but SS Impa would probably similar to Sheik so I wouldnt mind losing Sheik for Impa but I'd prefer both. All I know is that, outside of the Triforce holders, Impa is a very important character in the Zelda series and gets my vote. Still rooting for Lyn and Capt Syrup for my underdog picks.
 
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