Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I just realized.
Arthur from GnG should also be a good Capcom candidate.
Arthur from GnG should also be a good Capcom candidate.
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Next Super Smash Bros. discussion thread, Community Edition
- Thread starter Snakeyes
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I think the Issue is though, that Ridley is huge compared to samus. Pokemon sprites are all basically the same size, and theres nothing from the pikmin games really to compare olimar to. If anything, the other people shrink to his size (see : Pikmin stage in brawl). I can see why they would think it is awkward to have ridley in. Samus is already in at a defined size, and ridley is explicitly quite a bit larger than her.
I personally would still rather have him in than out though.
...bowser is huge compared to mario
they shrunk him for the game
literally the same thing
theyre both even weirdo lizards
It's not the same thing though. Bowser is huge in some games, and not in others. Even within a single game he will grow huge or shrink. One of the earliest mechanics of the mario series was changing size. Ridley is consistently 4 or 5 times Samus's size. Sometimes even larger.
Professor Beef
Banned
1) All of the Pokemon games list each individual Pokemon's weight and height. None of the Pokemon are properly scaled in the Smash games. Not to mention that "the sprites are all basically the same size" is a shit argument.
2) Olimar, as seen in the Pikmin games, is smaller than your average flower or D battery. Again, he is not to scale in Smash.
There is no reason to believe that size will be an issue if Ridley were to join the roster as a playable character.
Sorry, what I wrote was somewhat incoherent. I will try and recap :
1.(Although pokemon vary greatly in size), in the RPGs, the sprites all appear basically the same size. That is, it doesn't seem strange to see pikachu fighting charizard and have charizard be only a couple times larger because it appears in just such a way in the games.
2. There is nothing from the pikmin universe to compare his size to. There are no D batteries in the game. Furthermore, if you play the Pikmin level, the bulborb is huge compared to EVERYONE, so we could surmise that, just like how everyone turns flat in Mr. Game and Watches stage, everyone shrinks in Olimar's. It works because (outside of his stage, which is consistent with his size) there is no solid frame of reference. Although we know that Olimar is tiny, his size in Brawl is consistent with his size on screen and compared to the world in Pikmin 1 and 2. To the contrary, Samus is always (with the exception of only the NES game, now that I think about it) much, much smaller than Ridley in the games, and she serves as a very hard to ignore point of reference for Ridley in Smash.
I'll repeat that I want them to include Ridley in Smash 4, but I'm just responding to the people that are saying Sakurai's comments on Ridley are completely illogical. They are logical.
What's really illogical is not including an Animal Crossing rep because it wouldn't fit with the feel of the game. Who gives a shit? Did rob shoot lasers at people and fly before he was in brawl? I don't understand Sakurai's logic here at all.
Professor Beef
Banned
The sprites appear the same size in Pokemon because they have to fit in the screen. Play any of the Pokemon Stadium games if you think that they are never scaled properly.
And yes, there are batteries in Pikmin.
And yes, there are batteries in Pikmin.
Sorry again if I was hard to understand.
There are no batteries in Brawl to serve as a frame of reference. But even if there were ... "oh, that's just a different sized battery" is a lot easier to swallow than "Oh, that's just a different sized Ridley".
The Pokemon appear the same size on the screen in almost all of their games. I am aware that they are not supposed to be the same size in the reality of the game world, as I have said three times now. But their appearance and scale in brawl is consistent with that of their games, whether or not it is the "correct" size. I don't know how to be any clearer.
Professor Beef
Banned
Just forget it. Jesus fucking christ.
Just forget it. Jesus fucking christ.
Wow, you are a brilliant debater and very pleasant person to converse with. Thank you for being such a mature poster.
How so? It was Sakurai himself who made the comment. If we take what he said there as face value, that is the most important thing that precludes Ridley from making it in. I mean, yeah its fan-wankish, but not to a greater degree than anything else posted so far. Or in any smash thread really.
I got you, it's just Smash rosters tend to work out regardless of troubling shit like this, Olimar is a perfect example.
I actually think the argument of Ridley's size in relation to Samus is a decent one, but I think that because of Ridley's shape you can probably cheat it enough to get away with it. Ridley is often hunched over, his wings can be folded, and his tail can be pulled in - if you had him doing all these things, and made him still a suitable size bigger than Samus, then I think he will, on the odd occasion where he stretches out - like a running animation or him gliding or whatever - look significantly larger than Samus and therefore be 'big enough' for he to not look ridiculously small, without being too big for gameplay.
Neoriceisgood
Member
This is how I feel as well. Ridley stands out as a Nintendo character because of his insane proportions.
He's not just a large solid block like bowser, most parts of him are extremely long, slender and poseable.
In one of the older threads (or was it this one?) I actually pointed this fact out:
Eventhough some resizing is obviously necessary (4x as large as even bowser is too insane) with him the question of "how much resizing is essential" is a lot different than for a Bowser or Ganondorf.
Ridley's long tail and large wings are already in a category where, despite adding a lot of bulk, they're not actually a part of his body. If his tail is very curled up and/or his wings are resized/folded it'd probably reduce his visual size a lot.
Then there's the fact that in quite a few of his appearances (especially his melee and brawl ones) a large part of his size actually comes from his insanely oversized head.
Keeping features like that intact will make him look huge. Even if he was reduced to a size similar to Bowser, he'd still feel a lot larger due to having a giant head and being "bunched up".
(This is essentially what I did in the shown image. He's about Bowser's size, but his head is still massive in comparison. Almost as big as Samus.)
The only "problem" I see with his size is not that he's factually too large to put in, but that putting him in isn't easy.
For Ridley most of his animations would have to be thought out quite deeply because even at a significantly small size, his long limbs and parts can easily increase his size by 4-5 times when fully extended.
At the same time, we've had characters with extremely disjointed hitboxes like Snake, so why shouldn't Ridley be allowed to have a few moves where he can use the entire lenght of his tail to attack?
It's part of what would make him quite an interesting fighter.
I honestly do think that the argument has more to do with it being "difficult" to put him in, not as much that he's too large to ever make it.
Beautifully illustrated. I think that a Ridley of that size is perfect - he still looks huge (especially since we now have ZS Samus, so, by comparisson, Ridley seems even bigger compared to 'Samus'), but he wouldn't be unwieldy at that size.
Like you've said, there are other issues to work through with him, but that would solve the size one, in my mind.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
If Sakurai wants him in, he'll be there. Anyone who really thinks Sakuria stopped himself from including Ridley in other entries because he just couldn't bring himself to make Ridley smaller is kidding themselves. This scale debate is possibly the silliest thing I've read on Neogaf today.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Thats Metroid 1 Ridley. Imagine if he appear on the roster (I'll use fanart hereAre you kidding me?
as it appears at the top of google image search...
People would be "that not Ridley, everything looks wrong"
I'd be totally for including it along with MM2 boxart Mega Man and SMB1 FC Boxart Bowser.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Mewtwo right?
I'd be open to a playable mew though, lol.
It's not 100% exactly the same situation in every single way imaginable, so you're obviously wrong. Apparently.
Are you kidding me?
If you look at my posts, I conceded that Ridley in Metroid 1 was different. This is certainly an outlier though, and it is not his cannon size. I was only saying that it is way different than Bowser - a character from a series where shrinking and growing is common, one who has been of varied sizes in even a single game, let alone the entire series.
This has really gotten some people riled up. I'll quote myself.
Obviously, he could be made to fit in the game. I think he would be a cool addition. If you look back at my list of newcomers a few pages ago, Ridley is number 2 or 3 on there.
All I am saying is that it WOULD be a stretch, and the people that are saying, essentially, "Sakurai was lying when he said that he didn't think his size would work. Sakurai knows that it is a stupid argument and he wants to put him in for SSB4" are delusional.
It's not about percents, it is just an obviously very different situation.
I think the idea behind legendary pokemon is that they are god-like to normal contenders. Mew could potentially destroy most smash bros characters with little effort. He's just too powerful to be a player character.
Green Mamba
Member
Zero Mission more or less overrides the original Metroid in Metroid canon. If the original Metroid counted we could easily have a playable Kraid a head taller than Samus, and absolutely no one wants that.
As for Sakurai on Ridley, it was from a Nintendo Power interview fairly soon after Brawl's release. I don't have the issue number (I'll look into it), but the exact quote is:
EDIT: Beaten I guess.
Another comment on Bowser--Smash Bowser is pretty accurate to Bowser's size compared to Mario in the Mario spinoff games. There are several recent Mario games where Bowser is roughly the size he is in Smash compared to Mario--the only time that Ridley was slightly smaller than Samus was in the first Metroid over 25 years ago, a game which has since been overridden in its canon. They're not the best comparison. The Pokemon are better for comparison I think. Bowser is just a really bad example.
Ganondorf...?
Are you saying Ganondorf is also god-like or that he could take Mew?
Green Mamba
Member
Ganondorf is literally "god-like" because he possesses the Power of the Gods. He's a functionally immortal God-like being that can only be harmed by the Master Sword. I really don't see how a character being uber-powerful has anything to do with whether or not they should be playable. Unless you're honestly saying that, say, Ganondorf vs. the Ice Climbers is a fair fight in their respective canon?
But... Mewtwo is canonically more powerful than Mew.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Yes.
Eh... In terms of Pokemon Mew isn't that powerful. There are plenty that surpass it. Though I think it'd be cool though to have a Pokemon that has the potential to use every type of move, and transform.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Half of my brain is telling me to start doing power rankings of the Smash cast, and the other half is saying 'no no no no no no no no no'.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Do it!
Hot Coldman
Banned
I'M A GROWN MAN DAMN IT. Although I'll just say Ganondorf should be able to take everyone (bar Link in specific circumstances).
Neoriceisgood
Member
Why do I feel like Kirby has probably eaten a planet at some point?
Well, he blew up the moon once.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Fixed that for ya
There's no fucking way she'd be able to defeat Ganondorf anyway. Make him work up a sweat? Sure. But, well, it's the Iron Man vs Thor argument.
In the same Famitsu interview where Sakurai mentions the Diddy/Dixie tag team, he says that he considered including the Animal Crossing player character with net and shovel attacks but ultimately decided against it due to the generally pacific nature of the series. Does anybody think that the release of a highly successful animated film, City Folk, and the upcoming 3DS game might get him to reconsider? At the time, Animal Crossing had only consisted of the N64/GCN game and an in-development DS sequel. It was big enough to warrant a character, but not big enough to make it a priority.
Tony Stark is just a dude when he's not Iron Man. Samus is still a genetically-enhanced super soldier even without the armor. She's more like Captain America in Iron Man's armor.
And Ganondorf isn't a god like Thor. He's a dude who got good at magic. He also gets regularly defeated by little fairy elf boys who had never even held a sword until like three days ago. He was killed by a ten-year-old in Wind Waker. I don't like his chances versus a hardened veteran warrior toting around a missile launcher/death beam combo on her arm.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Holy shit what has this thread descended into.
HEY PROFESSOR BEEF SHINEGREYMON APPEARED IN DIGIMON XROS WARS 2!
Ridley's long tail and large wings are already in a category where, despite adding a lot of bulk, they're not actually a part of his body. If his tail is very curled up and/or his wings are resized/folded it'd probably reduce his visual size a lot.
I see this as a pretty huge problem in the game of SSB where screen usage and hit boxes that are easy and simple to determine are extremely important to gameplay. If his tail and wings are excluded from his hitbox, the ratio between his visible area on the screen vs where he can be hit at least doubles. That's a problem in itself, what's even worse is with all the animations, that ratio would change dramatically depending on his actions.
The issues with Ridley would only be greatly reduced if the size of his body were brought down to maybe slightly smaller than Samus', in which case he begins to not look like Ridley anymore and just some random Metroid enemy or Pokemon.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The games always seem to imply that Link and Link alone can defeat Ganondorf, if only because of a twist of fate that he is the only one that can wield the Master Sword. He isn't getting defeated by Link, he's getting defeated by the Master Sword. So I'd say Ganondorf could take anyone else out. He's really really good at magic, anyway. He shows up and boom, entire country filled with monsters. He can raise the dead, has command over the paranormal, he can teleport, transform into beasts and back again, possess people, and throw all kinds of weird spells around. Oh, and he's great with a sword, too. Pretty much the only thing that can touch him is holy magic. On a level playing field, where anything goes, no-one is nerfed and everything is in place for characters to perform at their full potential? Samus is fucked.
The best she could do is use the Light Suit + Light Beam, I guess. But even then, it wouldn't really work properly. Ganondorf wields power coming straight from the gods, so he might as well be one compared to everyone else.
...I told myself I wouldn't do this
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