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NHL vs. NBA - which sport deserves to be cancelled?
- Thread starter Hollywood
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I love playing basketball. But I find it difficult to watch. There isn't much intensity since each basket is just one amongst dozens and dozens. With hockey, the goals are exciting since they're few and far between and the threat of a goal at every moment is just as. The game is only boring when the pace is lame and play is frequently caught up in the neutral zone (thank you, New Jersey and Minnesota).
That said, close games late in the fourth-quarter are always entertaining. It's just too bad that the game at this point lends itself to so many fouls and stoppages of play.
That said, close games late in the fourth-quarter are always entertaining. It's just too bad that the game at this point lends itself to so many fouls and stoppages of play.
Kabuki Waq
Member
bishoptl said:
By best i mean most Entertaining, who can forget Zan Tabak's would be Game winning 3 pointer that sailed 5 feett above the backboard. Good times
soundwave05
Member
Socreges said:
Problem is most hockey teams today play a more conservative style and will grind the pace of a game to a halt if they get a lead.
At least in the NBA you have your defensive styled teams and then your run n' gun fastbreak type clubs.
In the NHL, there's really no team that plays the way they did in the 80s (when the game was faaaaaaar better).
And the NHL not clamping down on equipment violations, like goalies wearing massive pads is ridiculous.
The NHL (as a whole that includes the PA) deserves all the shit its getting.
soundwave05
Member
bishoptl said:
Compare that the 1980s Edmonton Oilers or even the early 1990s Pittsburgh Penguins.
THAT is a run n' gun style my friend.
Tampa Bay is an improvement, but then again anything would be an improvement over some of the crap we've seen the past 10 years.
Kabuki Waq
Member
yea Tampa Bay was awesome their Slogan was Safe =death or something.
You'll never see those glory days of the 80's again, unless you widen the ice and drop the number of skaters from 5 to 4. That said, seeing the Lightning succeed at the highest level with that style of play gives me hope that other teams will emulate it. We're lucky - the Canucks play like that nearly all the time, and it's very entertaining, but seeing TB win the Cup was a validation you simply can't buy.
I miss the NHL.
I miss the NHL.
soundwave05
Member
bishoptl said:
How about actually calling more of those penalties and really sticking to it (the NBA has done that this season) and forcing goalies to wear normal sized equipment?
That might be a friggin' start.
soundwave, your post wasn't any more relevant to mine than the rest of the thread. Why reply to me? Did I hit a nerve?
The NHL isn't without its problems. That said, I ask everyone who constantly trumps up the 80s era as considerably better to watch the supposedly best games [Classic games on Sportsnet/TSN/etc]. The game was more liberal, but that does NOT make it necessarily much better.
The NHL isn't without its problems. That said, I ask everyone who constantly trumps up the 80s era as considerably better to watch the supposedly best games [Classic games on Sportsnet/TSN/etc]. The game was more liberal, but that does NOT make it necessarily much better.
soundwave05
Member
I'm sorry but I do want to see Kobe or LeBron score 30 points.
Teamwork is still important, and teamwork is still prevalant in the NBA see the Pistons whupping the Lakers last year.
But I still want my dunks and high flying plays. That level of athleticism and creativity is something you'd don't see in many sports. Magic and Bird were great, but the reason why Jordan brought more fans to the game was because of his spectacular above the rim style of play.
If you're talking in terms of business, comparing the NBA to the NHL is laughable. The NHL can't even get a network TV deal and re-runs of the old Cosby show drew higher views in the US than the Stanley Cup Finals.
Teamwork is still important, and teamwork is still prevalant in the NBA see the Pistons whupping the Lakers last year.
But I still want my dunks and high flying plays. That level of athleticism and creativity is something you'd don't see in many sports. Magic and Bird were great, but the reason why Jordan brought more fans to the game was because of his spectacular above the rim style of play.
If you're talking in terms of business, comparing the NBA to the NHL is laughable. The NHL can't even get a network TV deal and re-runs of the old Cosby show drew higher views in the US than the Stanley Cup Finals.
WasabiKing
Member
DMczaf said:
Just to put a spin for our hockey crazed friends up north, SpongeBob and Rugrats' ratings kicked the crap out of NHL Playoff ratings last season. Simply put, players and hardcore fans just won't accept that hockey isn't as popular, and is rapidly dropping to the #5 sport in one of the largest countries in the world.
Kabuki Waq
Member
Britney Spears sells more records than Smashing Pumpkins, Kangaroo jack was the #1 movie in NA, NBA gets better rating than NHL.
soundwave05
Member
I'd say the NHL is way down on the list in the US ...
1.) NFL Football
2.) MLB Baseball
3.) NBA Basketball
4.) NCAA Football
5.) NCAA Basketball
6.) NASCAR
7.) Golf
8.) NHL Hockey
I think tennis might actually be more popular than the NHL in the US too. I'd venture a guess that the US Open draws more attention/higher ratings and tennis players like Andre Agassi and Venus Williams are far more popular than any hockey player.
1.) NFL Football
2.) MLB Baseball
3.) NBA Basketball
4.) NCAA Football
5.) NCAA Basketball
6.) NASCAR
7.) Golf
8.) NHL Hockey
I think tennis might actually be more popular than the NHL in the US too. I'd venture a guess that the US Open draws more attention/higher ratings and tennis players like Andre Agassi and Venus Williams are far more popular than any hockey player.
Fuck America. They've always been reluctant to embrace the sport. The US media after the Todd Bertuzzi scandal put a huge exclamation point on that much.
Unfortunately, of course, the NHL requires the US market. Not the US players, but the US market. So that problem provides an opportunity to fix certain things, such as clutching/grabbing. Though I don't think scoring necessarily needs to be increased, I'm sure that'll make a big difference for people that superficially enjoy the sport.
Unfortunately, of course, the NHL requires the US market. Not the US players, but the US market. So that problem provides an opportunity to fix certain things, such as clutching/grabbing. Though I don't think scoring necessarily needs to be increased, I'm sure that'll make a big difference for people that superficially enjoy the sport.
The Faceless Master
Member
don't think i've ever watched a hockey game for more than 5 minutes, and that i'd ever want to...
so NHL deserves it by far...
why pick on the NBA instead of the MLB? thats a shady fucking organization...
so NHL deserves it by far...
why pick on the NBA instead of the MLB? thats a shady fucking organization...
michael000
Banned
Other than the whole steroids thing, i personally will never get into baseball until they get some kind of salary cap. It's laughable that the yankees payroll for one year can equal like 7 teams combined. What's adds insult to injury is steinbrenner just pays the fines and laughs lol. Can't fault him though, i personally wish more owners were like him and Cubes.
Mike Works
Member
:lolThe Faceless Master said:
Once again pointing out how fucking retarded this thread is.
The NBA is back on the rise and will continue to get better with the diverse mix of players and styles in the league today. European players are breathing fresh air into the game. Lebron James will become as exciting as Jordan was to watch. More teams will take after the Phoenix Suns and go with a run and gun type of play. Hockey on the other hand... well if they can first of all agree on contracts...then they should make the ice olympic size...ban hooking and slashing...or atleast give a penalty shot for it (regardless if the player had a clear path to the net or not) and tweak the blueline. Hockey should be about finesse play. I'd rather see a Vincent Lecavalier do some sweet moves to get past a couple defenders and score than all this cheap ass hooking and slashing when a defender gets beat.
There's too many goons and too much of an emphasis on violence in the NHL. The rules allow you to fight a player one on one, but yet we still see assholes high sticking, throwing elbows and even sucker punching from behind. Hockey is cool, but they need to clean that shit up.
There's too many goons and too much of an emphasis on violence in the NHL. The rules allow you to fight a player one on one, but yet we still see assholes high sticking, throwing elbows and even sucker punching from behind. Hockey is cool, but they need to clean that shit up.
I've tried watching hockey. I'm sorry but it's fucking boring. BARELY more exciting than soccer, but only because they're on ice skates. Bowling is more fun to watch than hockey.
Oh, and thank God there are no hockey highlights to take away coverage from the REAL sports on ESPNEWS
Oh, and thank God there are no hockey highlights to take away coverage from the REAL sports on ESPNEWS
Kabuki Waq
Member
Boomer said:I've tried watching hockey. I'm sorry but it's fucking boring. BARELY more exciting than soccer, but only because they're on ice skates. Bowling is more fun to watch than hockey.
Oh, and thank God there are no hockey highlights to take away coverage from the REAL sports on ESPNEWS
judging by your name I am not surprised you would prefer bowling.
Spectral Glider
Member
I'd rather watch that god damn poker bullshit than a fucking NBA game. Or that friggen dog show too.
Gregory said:
Basketball requires the best conditioning (save perhaps for soccer-- excuse me, "football"...wouldn't want to offend your euro sensibilities
), utilizes the entire body rather than just half of it, and is by far the most athletically creative of the major sports, which is a big reason for its popularity both as a spectator sport and in terms of playing it for oneself.Basketball > *
Or maybe you're a "hockey" person. <yawn>
Kabuki Waq
Member
Loki said:Basketball requires the best conditioning (save perhaps for soccer-- excuse me, "football"...wouldn't want to offend your euro sensibilities
Basketball > *
Or maybe you're a "hockey" person. <yawn>
Oliver miller, Fat sean kemp? Hell even Shaq is not exactly fit, If you have height you dont really need to be in that great shape to play basket ball.
Man i really dont think there is even one out of shape NHL player, Skating takes alot out of you.
Loki said:Basketball requires the best conditioning (save perhaps for soccer-- excuse me, "football"...wouldn't want to offend your euro sensibilities
Basketball > *
Or maybe you're a "hockey" person. <yawn>
Gimme a fucking break. Hockey is by far the hardest teamsport to play. Even handball is much tougher than basketball. But the main issue is that basketball is incredibly boring to watch, not to mention play.
RobotChant
Member
Gregory said:
No, No, NOOOOO...!!! Don't make him pull out the tapes.
So many haters in here. I prefer hockey over b-ball, but at the end of the day the product the nba delivers to its consumer base is tenfold better than what the nhl is offering in its present form. Maybe canceling the season will give them a wakeup call. When everthing gets sorted out between the nhl and nhlpa, there better be: less teams, less games, more equipment restrictions, a larger ice rink and elimination of the red line.
soundwave05
Member
I'd say basketball is the most tiring sport to play. Full court takes a lot out of you. I've played basketball, hockey, volleyball, a little football, and some tennis.
Hockey requires more intensive "bursts" though I'd say.
Hockey requires more intensive "bursts" though I'd say.
Mike Works
Member
:lolLoki said:
:lol
There are many big reasons for basketball's popularity, and that's not one of them. The accessability of the sport- especially among multiple races/cultures within America- is easily bigger. It costs a lot less to buy a basketball and find some hoops than it does hockey equipment and renting a rink.
As for being the most athletically creative, that's pretty debatable. There are multiple forms of dekes just as there are dunks, same with passing. But saying that basketball requires better conditioning than hockey is just laughable. And what the hell do hockey players shoot with, their feet?
COME ON, LOKI
I agree with soundwave, the NHL has to start getting tougher on the clutching and grabbing, and even the picks/interference.
Bish, you have a point about making the ice surface larger, because that will have an immedeate impact on the coaching and styles of play of some teams. And this ties into why we see a lot of this bad stuff happening...it works and teams are getting away with it!
Once the league cracks down on it, the coaches can't use it as a tactic.
Bish, you have a point about making the ice surface larger, because that will have an immedeate impact on the coaching and styles of play of some teams. And this ties into why we see a lot of this bad stuff happening...it works and teams are getting away with it!
Once the league cracks down on it, the coaches can't use it as a tactic.
soundwave05
Member
I would say a big reason why basketball is more "accessible" is because of individual creativity.
I mean you can't miss Michael Jordan in a Bulls game for instance and there is something I dunno ... perhaps compelling to humans about defying gravity.
I know people who aren't into sports at all, but can be in awe or find entertainment value in a slam dunk contest for instance.
That's probably basketball's biggest selling card. The individuality of the plays/moves.
Its easier to market/sell, not only for the NBA, but look at corporations like Nike. They generally use basketball players over any other kind of athlete to be their flagship endorser.
The problem with making the ice size bigger in the NHL is that it creates a slower paced game. Yes players have more room to operate, but if you watched the Olympics, the play tends to be a little slower (especailly the Nagano games in '98). They really have to cut down on the clutching/grabbing its just that simple.
I mean you can't miss Michael Jordan in a Bulls game for instance and there is something I dunno ... perhaps compelling to humans about defying gravity.
I know people who aren't into sports at all, but can be in awe or find entertainment value in a slam dunk contest for instance.
That's probably basketball's biggest selling card. The individuality of the plays/moves.
Its easier to market/sell, not only for the NBA, but look at corporations like Nike. They generally use basketball players over any other kind of athlete to be their flagship endorser.
The problem with making the ice size bigger in the NHL is that it creates a slower paced game. Yes players have more room to operate, but if you watched the Olympics, the play tends to be a little slower (especailly the Nagano games in '98). They really have to cut down on the clutching/grabbing its just that simple.
Mike Works
Member
But hockey offers all of that. Individual creativity? Check. Slam dunk contest? Breakaway contest. There are many individuals in hockey current (Iginla, Sakic, Hull, Hasek, Mogilny, Lemieux, Bertuzzi, Naslund) and past (Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Richard, Roy, Bure, Messier).soundwave05 said:
Basketball would not nearly be as popular if it required the restrictions hockey did to get into the sport. That's one huge area basketball, and others like soccer or football have over hockey is the accessability.
umm can this be ever debated? basketball fans will prefer basketball and hockey fans will prefer hockey. there isnt much in terms of actual argument as to why one is more exciting or "better".
my fav sport is football followed by basketball. it just happened that way...not because i sat down and decided which would be the most exciting. its whatever u fall into. at least thats how it is with real fans and not those casual fucks who dont know shit about either sport and claim to watch only the end of the games or the playoffs.
like for example im a casual fuck when it comes to baseball.
my fav sport is football followed by basketball. it just happened that way...not because i sat down and decided which would be the most exciting. its whatever u fall into. at least thats how it is with real fans and not those casual fucks who dont know shit about either sport and claim to watch only the end of the games or the playoffs.
like for example im a casual fuck when it comes to baseball.
Gregory said:
:lol
Kabuqi, citing the exceptions to the rule proves nothing.
On average, basketball players are thebest conditioned professional athletes on the planet, except perhaps for soccer players. There's no disputing this. I can guarantee you that fat Oliver Miller could run farther, faster, than you can. Kabuki Waq
Member
Oliver Miller? hell no. I have seen the guy play who are you kidding.
Mike, are you seriously stating that there's as much athletic creativity and improvisation in hockey as in basketball? Come on now; stick work doesn't count as "athletic creativity", btw.
I wasn't wholly serious with the "utilizes the entire body" comment-- I just wanted to point out that, well, it utilizes the entire body. Yes, hockey does also, but not to the same degree and not in the same ways. I have NO doubt that any hockey player is in better condition than I am, strength and endurance-wise, but I'd seriously doubt that the average hockey player was in better condition strength- (note: strength != "I can beat the shit out of you!" ) or endurance-wise than the average NBA player.
At any rate, I didn't post to argue; I just wanted to state my opinion.
I wasn't wholly serious with the "utilizes the entire body" comment-- I just wanted to point out that, well, it utilizes the entire body.
Yes, hockey does also, but not to the same degree and not in the same ways. I have NO doubt that any hockey player is in better condition than I am, strength and endurance-wise, but I'd seriously doubt that the average hockey player was in better condition strength- (note: strength != "I can beat the shit out of you!" ) or endurance-wise than the average NBA player. At any rate, I didn't post to argue; I just wanted to state my opinion.
Kabuki Waq said:
Dude, I'm telling you. Ever been around any professional or high-level collegiate athletes? You have no idea of the type of shape they're in-- I don't care what they look like. I can almost guarantee you that Oliver Miller (when he was 300 pounds, not 400), could beat you in a foot race across a basketball court.
Accessibility is definately part of it. Most U.S. high schools will have basketball, football and baseball teams....but hockey?
But I agree the individuality of NBA players helps. And that highlights are easier to spot regardless if you know anything about the sport. People can be impressed by a big dunk, alley oop or fancy pass without really knowing what it meant for the game or anything. And no helmets or gear make it easy to spot and remember players for people not willing to take the time to listen to post interviews.
But I can watch hockey with friends (by friends I mean one guy I used to know) that know the game and see them get impressed by shit I'd never recognize or ever spot, and even if I did would never remember who did it without making an effort to remember. Even basic jukes are hard for me to spot or get impressed by. I just get bored as hell and stop watching.
And Loki preaches FACT.
But I agree the individuality of NBA players helps. And that highlights are easier to spot regardless if you know anything about the sport. People can be impressed by a big dunk, alley oop or fancy pass without really knowing what it meant for the game or anything. And no helmets or gear make it easy to spot and remember players for people not willing to take the time to listen to post interviews.
But I can watch hockey with friends (by friends I mean one guy I used to know
) that know the game and see them get impressed by shit I'd never recognize or ever spot, and even if I did would never remember who did it without making an effort to remember. Even basic jukes are hard for me to spot or get impressed by. I just get bored as hell and stop watching.And Loki preaches FACT.
Kabuki Waq
Member
bottom line hockey players are way more fit physically than Bball players. Some players lose 10 pounds or such in a single game. Skating back and forth for a shift is no joke. While in bball the big man really dont have to run at full speed all times.
And btw Oliver Miller can not beat anyone in a footrace i wish i could find videos somewhere.
And btw Oliver Miller can not beat anyone in a footrace i wish i could find videos somewhere.
Loki said::lol
Kabuqi, citing the exceptions to the rule proves nothing.
Having played soccer my whole life, quit when I was 28, at a pretty high level, second highest division here in Norway, and also icehockey and bandy (another sport which is incredibly demanding, more so than soccer) soccer doesn`t even come close. I don`t know why you seem to think soccer is so incredibly demanding, must be because you haven`t played it that much. And certainly not hockey.
Mike Works said:
Here's a sample...
1) No one plays defense anymore. In fact, due to players becoming much bigger (especially longer) and more athletic, defense is now stronger than it has ever been before. Hell, the current NBA champions won with a defense first mentality. The increased physicality allowed by officials allowed over the years has added to this, and a tightening of the rules on guarding perimeter players this year has resulted in a massive scoring jump.
The corollary to this myth is that college players try so much harder on the defense. Do they put in a little more effort? Yeah, because they don't play every other day. But mostly, it just looks like they're playing better defense. Most college players (short, unathletic, or both) have to "hustle" so much because they have no choice, it's the only way they really can defend a decent offensive player. However, just because that's the most effective strategy for a lanky 6 footer who can't keep up with his man, it doesn't mean that the same applies to an explosive player with a 6' 10" wingspan. If you ever see an NBA player play over-aggressive defense like college players are lauded for, 8 times out of 10 their man will blow right by them for an easy score.
2) The NBA is in bad shape and losing tons of money. Wrong. Attendence is up from a few years ago, TV ratings last playoffs were at their highest since 98, and merchandise revenue is significantly higher than that for any other league (NFL included). Comparing the financial situation of the NBA and that of the NHL is like comparing a company like Cisco Systems (which is not as popular as it was 6 years ago but is still very healthy) and a small company that just went bankcrupt. The entire concept of the thread - comparing two leagues that are in big trouble right now - is severly flawed.
3) The game's don't start until the last 5 minutes. This I seriously don't understand....are people complaining that the games are close? Why don't people complain when NFL games got to OT or baseball games go into extra innings? Even still, the conception that all NBA games aren't decided to the very end is erroneous. The best teams with by an average of 10+ points per game. Just watch Phoenix play....they'll drop 70 on you in the first half. If that doesn't affect the outcome, I don't know what does.
I gotta disagree. I don't think there is really any correlation between accessibility and professional sports watching tendencies. Basketball is very accessible, but football is certainly not. How many people have a couple of dozen of people to play with? How many people past the age of 25 can play it with any sort of physicality? Unless you're on a HS/college team, rarely anyone ever plays football even resembling that in the NFL.
The best example is probably soccer. It's probably the most popular sport among kids and all you need is a ball, a field, and a few players per team. Yet no one watches it professionally. On the opposite end of things, look at sports like Golf and NASCAR. Those are getting pretty big ratings.
When people are looking at professional sports, they often want the spectacular, not the familiar.
I can't say for sure that it requires the best conditioning, but basketball, without a doubt, requires the most athletic talent of all the major US team sports. If I had to rank the top 10 best athletes in pro team sports, 7 or 8 of them would be NBA players (the others would probably be from the NFL...let's say Vick, Moss, and Owens). There's a reason why a lot of the better NFL tight ends or wide recievers are former basketball players who probably were never good enough to make the NBA. Look at someone like Terrell Owens, who seems to dwarf everyone else on the football field in size. In the NBA, he'd the shorter than several teams' starting PG.
I'm convinced that if you take a Kevin Garnett or a Lebron James, you have a guy who has the physical tools to be a world-class athlete in almost any sport. Put Lebron in the NFL, and he's likely the best WR in the game. If Kevin Garnett played tennis his entire life, he would be as quick as almost any ATP player, yet have a court reach (and a serve) that could dwarf anyone elses. On the other hand, if you take the best athletes from each sport and put them on a basketball court, they'd have mediocre athletic ability.
Those are two players who haven't played in 5 years, both of whose careers went WAY down when they put on significant pounds. When Kemp was actually good, he was in great shape. When he put on the pounds, he became a beyond marginal player. Shaq's play also dropped when he put on extra weight....but even then, you're talking about a player that's 7'1", has enormous hands, is very quick, and when totally lean weighs over 300 pounds. At some point, such ridiculous physical tools overcompensate for some conditioning issues. If you take any NBA player whose physical size is comparable to players from other sports (let's say someone under 6'8"), you'll find that getting out of shape send their career down the toilet.
michael000
Banned
Gregory said:
This is why the nba season is on the brink of being locked out
Loki said:
He's absolutely right. Anyone who thinks a 300 pounder is automatically slow, how many of you think you could easily outrun Warren Sapp? Hell look at the offensive lineman, if you don't think they can run take a look at a scouting report from the Combine they run in Indy every year. Most of the kids that will be drafted are in the 300 lb+ range and run around 5 in the 40.
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