• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"Not sustainable": Developers across the industry react to The Last of Us Part 2's $220 million budget

Looks sustainable enough for Sony on a title by title basis. They’ve made a lot of money off that franchise.

However, they know they need to spread their bets which is why there is some movement into GAAS and Mobile. As a fan of their single player games - if they create a hit and fund more single player games then I’ll be happy.
 

lordrand11

Member
OK, a $380,000,000 profit sounds pretty sustainable to me
If the marketing budget was anything like GTA V's on it's first releases you're probably looking anywhere in the woods of 75-150 millis. If anything I'd say they more than likely made 1.5x on it via consoles and are intending to push for higher earnings by having to port over to PC.
 

Thick Thighs Save Lives

NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
It’s not at all a far cry from that, it was very safe. And you conveniently ignored the more important part, bloated with nonsense. Which LoU II most definitely is. Easily the second biggest complaint with the game after the Joel/Abby whining is the length of the game 👍
Again, it wasn't a safe game at all. At least, not in terms of its narrative and gameplay. It actually takes some pretty bold narrative risks, including subverting player expectations ]by throwing them into the shoes of Abby, who players initially see as the antagonist. This switcheroo challenges players to re-examine their preconceptions and biases, and to see the story from a different perspective.. We all know how important this aspect is since it was one of the catalysts that has divided the fan base till this day. Moreover, TLOU Part 2 tackles some heavy and complex shit, including trauma, revenge, and the cyclical nature of violence. You don't see these themes being explored in mainstream AAA titles, and the game's willingness to tackle them head-on is a risk in and of itself. Then there's also that the narrative structure which is kinda unconventional, as it has flashbacks and non-linear storytelling which asks a tad more from the player than your usual run of the mill AAA game.

As for your take that the the game's length is bloated with nonsese or is too long, I can tell you that every aspect, from gameplay mechanics to the narrative beats, has been carefully crafted to serve a purpose and contribute to the overall experience, since we all know that TLOU Part 2 is a heavily defined by its character-driven focus which surprise, surprise relies on the player's investment in these characters and their relationships to drive the story forward. So this "bloated" playtime allows for more opportunities to explore these characters and their motivations, making their arcs feel more impactful. All this being said, let me know if I "conveniently ignored" any other part of your argument regarding TLOU 2.
 

Shut0wen

Banned
ND reported Spring of 2022 that TLoU2 had sold 10 million units by then. We know that the majority are digital unit sales. Already there you have the 600 MUSD in net revenue. Add to that the unit sales after that while the HBO show was running plus TV rights for the second HBO season plus the fact that it is a system pusher.

So yes, we know for a fact that TLoU2 has been highly profitable for Sony.

Edit: Reference - https://nordic.ign.com/the-last-of-...-of-us-part-2-has-sold-over-10-million-copies
So your saying that any game that sells over 10 million the first month of launch pretty much makes 600 million, so mario kart 8 on switch, a game that has sold 50 million copies literally generated 3 billion dollars?
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
So your saying that any game that sells over 10 million the first month of launch pretty much makes 600 million, so mario kart 8 on switch, a game that has sold 50 million copies literally generated 3 billion dollars?

Revenue, yes, pretty much. Minus retailer share of physical copies.

Profit, no, obviously not. But yeah, MK8 has made Nintendo an absolute fuckton of money.
 
Last edited:

Lupin25

Member
What do you want? My trophies list? Purchase receipt? A vidoe of me logging into my PSN account, navigating to my collection and downloading with a sign with my gaf username?

There's a sect of y'all Sony clowns remind me of people back in 2004 when you said you didn't like passion of the Christ.

Your post history is clear to see, you already have a bias towards these kind of games, dude.

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you comment on it either. At least have experienced it first, is all I’m saying lol…
 
Last edited:

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
I don't see a problem here. The game is 200mil but it sold 10mil copies.
That's 600mil $, so like 300mil $ of pure profit.

Gta 4 was the most expensive game of it's time with cost of 100mil. Look how much money it ended up making
 
Last edited:

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
Don't be like that, horizon also has A LOT of gameplay, huge variety of enemies, good variety of weapons in the sequel, etc.

It is cinematic but you can just roam the world and kill stuff and having 50 hours of pure gameplay without a single cinematic.

I hate this cinematic game bullshit narrative, less cinematic games have a fraction of the enemy quality in horizon where even the shittiest, smaller dinobots has 4 different moves, let alone the big ones.

I saw "gameplay centric"games with final bosses with less than 4 unique moves, like cmon...

The order and ryse were what you call cinematic games, tlou2 i guess is in between but the actual tps part play pretty well.

I’m referring to a game that’s solely focused on gameplay with no cinematics.

The cinematics have to be what propels the cost so much.
 
If GAAS end up making more money to Sony, I can't say they would back to make AAA 'goodness', don't you think?
You have no idea what you're talking about.
The percentage of game development money Sony is allocating to single player aaa development is going down, BUT the total budget is going up so in reality the total $$$ amount for single player aaa game development is actually going up at sony.
 

Hudo

Member
While I was personally very disappointed with Last of Us 2, the game sold well and I doubt that Sony would greenlight projects that don't have a big profit potential.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
The unhealthiest, and most boring parts of the games industry isn't sustainable? Good riddance.

It's self correcting. This biggest, oldest trees in the forest die, fall over, and everything underneath flourishes. It's called the circle of life people. These types of games are reaching the end of their evolutionary chain.

Celebrate!

coruscant-victory.gif
 
Again, it wasn't a safe game at all. At least, not in terms of its narrative and gameplay. It actually takes some pretty bold narrative risks, including subverting player expectations ]by throwing them into the shoes of Abby, who players initially see as the antagonist. This switcheroo challenges players to re-examine their preconceptions and biases, and to see the story from a different perspective.. We all know how important this aspect is since it was one of the catalysts that has divided the fan base till this day. Moreover, TLOU Part 2 tackles some heavy and complex shit, including trauma, revenge, and the cyclical nature of violence. You don't see these themes being explored in mainstream AAA titles, and the game's willingness to tackle them head-on is a risk in and of itself. Then there's also that the narrative structure which is kinda unconventional, as it has flashbacks and non-linear storytelling which asks a tad more from the player than your usual run of the mill AAA game.

As for your take that the the game's length is bloated with nonsese or is too long, I can tell you that every aspect, from gameplay mechanics to the narrative beats, has been carefully crafted to serve a purpose and contribute to the overall experience, since we all know that TLOU Part 2 is a heavily defined by its character-driven focus which surprise, surprise relies on the player's investment in these characters and their relationships to drive the story forward. So this "bloated" playtime allows for more opportunities to explore these characters and their motivations, making their arcs feel more impactful. All this being said, let me know if I "conveniently ignored" any other part of your argument regarding TLOU 2.

chair table GIF by South Park


Nothing you listed is unique or risky. The core game is a sequel to another game that also didn’t do anything outside of the box. Hell, the MP was more unique than anything in the SP. The reason ND was able to take so long and use so much money is because Sony knew it was a safe bet that the game would be well received and sell well.

The narrative was polarizing but not anything “unsafe”. It’s a story of revenge and loss with some LGBTQ mixed in.

But again, the bloat and overly long completion time is a bigger issue and LOL @ you claiming it’s all “finely crafted to connect you to the characters”. What a bunch of nonsense.

We can agree to disagree though and you can enjoy the last word on this, I’m not going to sit and argue whether the length of LoU II is a negative or not 😆
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Thats explain 'why' Sony is looking for remakes and GAAS, no matter the spin fanboys try to do. Waiting for the inevitable Horizon Zero Dawn remake.

This doesn't explain it.

Remakes/remasters aren't new. They're cash grabs and nothing more. You tried to say a few weeks ago they're used to cover the development cost of these games and that's ridiculous.
 
How do you fund 20 indie games with 20m. Most successful kickstarter had more money and still needed a publisher for more money later on
Because in third World countrys its possible and that's what he always says the indie scene needs, more diversity

He is an idiot But its not wrong
 

killatopak

Member
The reason it feels like it’s not sustainable is because not all studios can make games the same quality and recognition as Naughty Dog.

For every successful game, there’s like a dozen failed games and that’s not just in terms of AAA ones. How many indie games are released every year? The difference is, failure isn’t as damning as a AAA game.
 

PanzerCute

Member
Control also sold 3 million copies in total. Plague tale sold 1 million copies. TLOU 2 sold 10+ million copies.

Sony plays a high-risk, high-reward game.
Problem being you cant have more than X games with these budgets and Sony and the likes release less and less games.

And they will take less and less risk, meaning we will see more and more super hero or movie IP games.

And that is really the last thing I want to see in videogames.
 

Fake

Member
The reason it feels like it’s not sustainable is because not all studios can make games the same quality and recognition as Naughty Dog.

Disagree. As some here mention, most of those dev reaction are just little salty over the real reason. They're just envy because Sony give their studios unlimited funds to begin with.
Digital Foundry direct weelky mention this and about GTA6 having unlimited resources from RS. I guess that is why they are angry, because they normally work with limited money in comparison with big studios from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo.
 
Last edited:

killatopak

Member
Disagree. As some here mention, most of those dev reaction are just little salty over the real reason. They're just envy because Sony give their studios unlimited funds to begin with.
Digital Foundry direct weelky mention this and about GTA6 having unlimited resources from RS. I guess that is why they are angry, because they normally work with limited money in comparison with big studios from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo.
Maybe I should put it this way. Why are these studios getting unlimited funds in the first place? The reason is because they produce results. Results stem from competence.

Give a mediocre studio the same budget and it simply would not work.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Problem being you cant have more than X games with these budgets and Sony and the likes release less and less games.

And they will take less and less risk, meaning we will see more and more super hero or movie IP games.

And that is really the last thing I want to see in videogames.
To be fair to them, TLOU 2 is as risky as it gets. Look at how many people it pissed off.

Naughty Dog doing another Uncharted would also be extremely safe and a guaranteed 10+ million seller. I don't see them doing anything safe, at least for now.
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
Wow devs truly are fucking lazy

Imagine 20 vulcano high school indie games
 
Last edited:
Better games have been made on a much smaller budget, so it doesn't seem like an efficient use of funds. Goes to show you can't just throw money at something and expect it to be good. Whether it's sustainable or not doesn't matter much to me.
 

Gorgon

Member
What do you want? My trophies list? Purchase receipt? A vidoe of me logging into my PSN account, navigating to my collection and downloading with a sign with my gaf username?

There's a sect of y'all Sony clowns remind me of people back in 2004 when you said you didn't like passion of the Christ.

Wait, you didn't like Passion of the Christ?
 

Thick Thighs Save Lives

NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
chair table GIF by South Park


Nothing you listed is unique or risky. The core game is a sequel to another game that also didn’t do anything outside of the box. Hell, the MP was more unique than anything in the SP. The reason ND was able to take so long and use so much money is because Sony knew it was a safe bet that the game would be well received and sell well.

The narrative was polarizing but not anything “unsafe”. It’s a story of revenge and loss with some LGBTQ mixed in.

But again, the bloat and overly long completion time is a bigger issue and LOL @ you claiming it’s all “finely crafted to connect you to the characters”. What a bunch of nonsense.

We can agree to disagree though and you can enjoy the last word on this, I’m not going to sit and argue whether the length of LoU II is a negative or not 😆

Yeah, you got me, it's sponsored content lol. In any case, we may have different opinions on TLOU Part 2, and that's okay I guess. Different people enjoy different things. :messenger_winking_tongue:
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
I'd take 3 10 to 12 hour games on the level of resi evil 4 remake over lou2

Probably come out within 3 years too
? The fuck are you talking about?

Resident Evil 4 remake started development in 2018.

It took over 5 plus years to development so........yea. I don't know where anyone is getting this idea that being a remake means automatically it will take less time, that isn't always the case btw.

So 2015 they started RE2's remake
2017 they started RE3's remake
2018 they started RE4's remake.

The game that did take 3 years to make btw, was the one of those 3 that was missing content and talked about negatively more then the fucking other 2 lol Soooo it funny enough goes directly against your point. The ones that took longer ie Re2 and Re4 were received far better. I love both The Last Of Us 2 and Resident Evil 4 as a big horror fan, but regardless of which one either of us likes, that doesn't magically change any of their development times or something.

I think people just get in their heads that the game is 12 hours and a remake, thus took 3 years to make lol


nahhhhhhhh

You can have a team take 5 years to make something that is 20 or 30 hours or even 100 plus hours

You can have a team take 5 years to make something that is 10 to 12..

Keep in mind, its not to say I'm against a game coming out faster, not everyone can be Capcom with that type of efficiency, it would be as odd as asking everyone to be like Insomniac in regards to their turnaround
 
Last edited:

Yoboman

Member
pepo21.gif




Not with the marketing budget, no.

......

The problem here is, when you adjust your budget that only 5+ million sales at 70 dollars are just enough for that product to become an actual profitable product; one miss will brick you so have to play SUPER SAFE.


I prefer good AA to standard AAA games honestly.
I don't think anything in that budget revelation says it does or doesn't include marketing budget
 

Fatmanp

Member
I would say these types of projects are sustainable if you are a platform holder, a 3rd party with an ultra successful GAAS or both. So basically Sony, MS, Activision, EA and Take 2. Of course there are a few unicorns that can defy this like CDPR, but I don't see Sega, Capcom, SE, Ubisoft, Bamco etc being able to do this on an ongoing basis.
 

Puscifer

Member
Your post history is clear to see, you already have a bias towards these kind of games, dude.

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you comment on it either. At least have experienced it first, is all I’m saying lol…
I don't, if I did why would I praise Ragnarok?


The main issue I have with some of these games is that the sheen wares off overtime and very few of them are worth going back too once the hype is gone, it takes like 4 hours for the game to really get going and that's opening hours you can't skip, can't skill your way past, it's just part of the slog of story first gaming.

If you're going through my post history, clearly you'd have seen where I agreed that Abby is coming back. I LIKE Sony games, I wouldn't have a PS5 if I didn't, but I can't deny my hype is less and less because you realize after a while what you're in for. A solid run and after the hype is gone you're kinda "meh"



Or this post


Or my issue with people dismissing mechanically sound games that are damn fun just because they don't have insane budgets and development times. Or how Red Dead Redemption 2 was straight up disrespectful of your time and when I explain why it's like I'm to blame because I don't have 30 hours a week to slow burn and sink my time into the game for "immersion" sake of watching a 20-30 second skinning animation, Death Stranding even patched out the locator animation after a while because yes, it's neat the first few times but over a 50-70 hour playthrough starts to grate on you.

 
Last edited:

Eotheod

Member
Sustainability questions come from the factor of working so long on projects, which continues to blow out, that what you intially budget with grows further in size. This is also a reason why delays are so costly, because you are paying such incredibly high head costs that delaying by a few months could cost upwards of $150k a month. Throw in the marketing budgets and things could easily skyrocket to $500 million+ which again, is not sustainable.

This is what Sony's costs have revealed, that the budgets for AAA are clearly far too high but when looking at other tech industries is lower than average. Though other tech industries deal in far different product returns and investments, so comparing is harder. It's where balances of other incomes come into consideration that allow for profit delivery, such as CoD 30% returns or their GaaS expectations.

As someone who is "in" the industry (through degree and on the side title working), it's a very volatile yet highly rewarding sector. What works for one may not work for another, especially with audiences being so vast. If budgets inclusive of marketing and such are closing in to a billion dollars, and returns may or may not happen, that is significantly risky.
 

Nydius

Gold Member
People said the same of movies and we've been getting expensive capeshit for 20 years.

Except these massive budget movies have increasingly been financial mega flops. Look at the recent Indiana Jones. A near $300 million production budget, probably another $100-$150 million in marketing. Made $60 million domestic at the box office in opening weekend. Anywhere from 10-50% of that goes to the theaters, so opening weekend the movie only pulled in between $30-$54 million domestically. Second week drop off is probably going to be severe, much like The Flash before it and the movie is probably never going to reach a break even point when all domestic and international box office tallies are in.

That's just one example of many and triple-A gaming is walking down the exact same path. Development budgets are exploding, marketing budgets are increasing, and digital distributors take between a 12% to 30% cut on every copy sold. I absolutely agree with the original article's assessment that it's unsustainable. Game budgets cannot continue to balloon on games that end up taking 6-8 years to release.
 

Ozzie666

Member
Sustainable for Sony who currently has a healthy eco system. Games are partially funded by their 30% digital store tax. They also use these games to push their consoles in a traditional business model. They use these games to spin off movies like Uncharted, TV shows like Last of Us, Twisted Metal (lol) . Upcoming Ghosts movie etc. This is only the beginning of cross media projects for them.

Sony is eating well right now they can afford these costs. The Sony of PS3 and early PS4, wouldn't be able to sustain this at all.

Whilst sustainable for now, I do believe there is a burst of the bubble coming, for all of AAA gaming. Thank God, Nintendo has a product that requires much less development costs with potential for good return on investment for developers.

Unless I am mistaken, the current 30% digital tax platform holders run with may be higher than whatever Nintendo and Sega charged for producing cartridges and more than pressing discs.
Crazy town? or am I wrong? No transports costs, no production costs, no manuals.
 

A.Romero

Member
This is mediatic concern trolling. They don't even show any more opinions of any other developers unless I'm missing something.

If they make money or not is only Sony's problem (BTW they obviously are making money, otherwise they wouldn't be dropping a quarter billion dollars on a game, simple logic unless they are thinking that George Soros y paying to push the gay agenda lol).
 

ungalo

Member
Even if it was unsustainable, who cares ?

Why are they saying "you could fund 20 indie games" with 10% of the budget ? Indies are everywhere.

"not to say these games shouldn't get those budgets" then shut up, those games are already rare
 

01011001

Banned
The game is closer to 15m units by now.

Is very profitable

games like that need to play is super safe and can't be innovative, that's the main issue.
it can't fail, it has to sell to make back the massive budget, and the way to ensure that is to play it safe.
 

Scotty W

Banned
The game made Sony over a billion dollars minimum the first year. It's highly sustainable.
The people in this story might be using a different definition of sustainable than me, but there is a potential problem. If the industry gets filled with “too big fail” juggernauts, companies will be less inclined to take creative risks, and everything will be focus grouped even worse than now. I am not saying it is inevitable, just a danger.
 

ZehDon

Member
I think Hollywood is currently seeing the end result of the kind of trend games like TLOUPII are sitting on. Ballooning budgets, longer cycles, higher expectations; there absolutely has to be a tipping point. With that said, I don't think it manifests itself like it does in Hollywood, where we end up with an endless stream of utterly forgettable sanitised USD$300m "spectacle" blockbusters like "Dial of Destiny" every year. Hollywood only has one or two revenue streams for its products, so it has to make them safer, more appealing, and hope to sell to the masses. Video games have lots of revenue streams: retail, digital, GaaS, MTX, F2P, Loot boxes, etc. I think games like Destiny 2 and Halo Infinite are a good example of what the trend of "bigger budgets, longer cycles, higher expectations" produces in video games - endless "10 Year" treadmills that look and sound great but are utterly forgettable trash that players are expected to invest a decade into to soak up the risk. I think Sony's GaaS push shows they know they can't sustain the kind of risk games of this kind of increasing scale have in them without a safety net. TLOUPII itself was successful, sure, but it sold about half of what its predecessor did. For a USD$220m tent pole with that kind of hype on a platform as big as the PS4, that must have been a little scary for the bean counters. It all worked out ok, but they were probably expecting to at least equal its predecessor, especially after the sales of Uncharted 4. These kinds of budgets are all well and good when everything goes your way, but that's not how you keep a company alive as long as Sony has. At these numbers, one big misfire is enough to wobble the whole house of cards. I imagine we'll see GaaS safety nets - titles expected to have enormous longterm return on investments - spring up more and more as budgets continue to balloon.
 
Last edited:

TheGrat1

Member
Thats explain 'why' Sony is looking for remakes and GAAS, no matter the spin fanboys try to do. Waiting for the inevitable Horizon Zero Dawn remake.
BREAKING NEWS: Corporation seeks high return on investment, more at 11.
 
Last edited:

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
TLOU2 might have made its money back but it's clearly not sustainable given how Sony themselves are switching to 60% gaas tash vs 40% AAA top tier single player exclusives going forward. this year simply proves that. Only one AAA single player game from their premiere studios with absolutely fuck all slated for next year.

TLOU3 will take 6 years to make, likely get delayed by another year because of covid, and come out by 2027. Thats 1 game per gen from Naughty Dog. Horizon 3 is likely 5 years away. SSM's next game is 5 years away. Tsushima 2 is likely a 2026 title. that leaves Wolverine and Spiderman as the two big sony games set to come out between now and 2026.

The rest are all quick GaaS cash grabs because sony knows that these long dev cycles and expensive games are not sustainable.
 

Lasha

Member
It's also safer for Sony because they're the platform holder, meaning they get 100% of the profit.

Sony's risk free 30%-40% cut of every other game sold on the platform makes massive budgets safe. Sony would probably not greenlight such budgets if it were a normal publisher or relied primarily on first party revenue like Nintendo.
 
Top Bottom