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November NBA Season Thread - It's finally time
- Thread starter DMczaf
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BatiGOOOOOOL
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:lol
Cloudy said:I'm not arguing, Levious. Just pointing out facts. I do think KB8 is being over-scrutinized though :lol
Averaging 29, 6 and 7 while leading a competitive team in the West when everyone predicted a lottery bound team and him not being shit w/o Shaq is pretty good if you ask me...
PS: Intagibles are subjective. Give me stats and trends that can be analyzed
How's his Bird stat line? That's how you can counter Loki when he brings up field goal percentage.
Bird stats = Efficiency ratings. Kobe's would be pretty low (for his usual standards due to his fg% and TOs) to this point...
I'll edit with the stats
edit:
2004-05 Regular Season Efficiency Rating
Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G
Player G EFF
1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 12 33.75
2. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) 13 29.92
3. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) 14 28.64
4. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 14 27.79
5. Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat) 12 27.58
6. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 13 27.00
7. Amare Stoudemire (Phoenix Suns) 13 26.15
8. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers) 13 26.08
9. Antawn Jamison (Washington Wizards) 11 23.82
10. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 11 23.36
I'm actually surprised he's in the top 10 cos he's been handling the ball (and turning it over) too much :lol
I'll edit with the stats
edit:
2004-05 Regular Season Efficiency Rating
Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G
Player G EFF
1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 12 33.75
2. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) 13 29.92
3. Dirk Nowitzki (Dallas Mavericks) 14 28.64
4. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 14 27.79
5. Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat) 12 27.58
6. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 13 27.00
7. Amare Stoudemire (Phoenix Suns) 13 26.15
8. Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers) 13 26.08
9. Antawn Jamison (Washington Wizards) 11 23.82
10. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 11 23.36
I'm actually surprised he's in the top 10 cos he's been handling the ball (and turning it over) too much :lol
Bron being #2 isn't a surprise. He boards a lot for his position and gets 6+ dimes a game. That in addition to scoring mostly around the rim = VERY efficient. Exactly the same can be said for Wade. Those 2 know how to get to the hoop and they will keep beasting until people MAKE them shoot jumpers...
PS: Kobe is at 1.15 spg
PS: Kobe is at 1.15 spg
Oh, I've heard of efficiency ratings before; in fact, I've brought them up in past MJ/Kobe discussions, so Konex can't really use them to bolster "the case for Kobe". These are Kobe's finishes in terms of player efficiency rankings each year that he was ranked at all:
Kobe's rankings:
6, 8, 5, 5
(that is, sixth place, eighth place etc.)
Jordan's rankings (for full seasons):
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4
Shaquille O'Neal (1993-present):
7, 2, 2, 3, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4
These rankings are important because you're measured against your fellow players, not by arbitrary stats. It's important to note that the only other guard in history to finish first in the efficiency ratings besides Jordan was Adrian Dantley, and he did it once-- Jordan, 7 times (would've been 8 if he hadn't broken his foot in '86). People are free to draw their own conclusions.
These are Kobe's finishes in terms of player efficiency rankings each year that he was ranked at all:Kobe's rankings:
6, 8, 5, 5
(that is, sixth place, eighth place etc.)
Jordan's rankings (for full seasons):
2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4
Shaquille O'Neal (1993-present):
7, 2, 2, 3, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4
These rankings are important because you're measured against your fellow players, not by arbitrary stats. It's important to note that the only other guard in history to finish first in the efficiency ratings besides Jordan was Adrian Dantley, and he did it once-- Jordan, 7 times (would've been 8 if he hadn't broken his foot in '86). People are free to draw their own conclusions.
Year EFF
1996-97 6.28
1997-98 12.67
1998-99 19.02
1999-00 22.86
2000-01 25.31
2001-02 23.49
2002-03 28.02
2003-04 22.68
Career (this year not included) 20.11
I find it hard to believe that a 19.02 (First year as a full-time starter) and 22.86 EFF rating would not be ranked seeing as the #50 on this year's list is at 16.19. Also, I wouldn't compare stats from different eras (For example, pre-zone defense etc.)
Cloudy said:Year EFF
1996-97 6.28
1997-98 12.67
1998-99 19.02
1999-00 22.86
2000-01 25.31
2001-02 23.49
2002-03 28.02
2003-04 22.68
Career (this year not included) 20.11
I find it hard to believe that a 19.02 (First year as a full-time starter) and 22.86 EFF rating would not be ranked seeing as the #50 on this year's list is at 16.19. Also, I wouldn't compare stats from different eras (For example, pre-zone defense etc.)
I meant ranked in the top 10, not in the top 20. I got my stats from this site, which is the most authoritative basketball stat site on the internet:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/
Just look up Kobe Bryant, and scroll down to where it says "player efficiency ratings". They only show finishes in the top 10, which is what I was referring to.
Btw, you're really reaching with the "zone defense" thing. Dominant big men are more adversely affected by zone defensive schemes than guards are, though they're all affected-- the point is that these rankings compare you to your peers, so the factors that affect one, affect all. Besides which, before zone was legalized (and zone wasn't even employed a lot the first year they legalized it), trapping was still allowed (and common for guys like Jordan and other elite guards). So I'd say it all evens out in the end, especially when-- as noted-- these "efficiency rankings" (note: not the absolute #'s like 25.31 for the '01 season, but where one finishes relative to the rest of the league) are relative comparisons to one's contemporaries.
Btw, as a total aside, I think zone defense should be abolished, and I STILL have no idea why they made it legal. I feel that it hasn't had the impact they thought it would, which was to have guys develop their perimeter J and mid-range game again. It's a failed plan imo, and it disproportionately hurts post-up guys like Shaq, Yao and Duncan, effectively taking them out of the game. It's nonsense that it's legal to double-team ANY player before they have the ball (though you see this more against post players-- if they doubled a guard out at 30 feet when he didn't have the ball, it'd open up your entire defense to attack). What about everyone else-- what's your opinion of the zone? I think it needs to go. Man-to-man is where it's at. It's more honorable, too.
Same place I got my stats
I really hate to compare different eras but I hate to compare stats from a #1 option player to those a #2 option player even more
Oh and I think zone play SHOULD be legal. Illegal defense not only rewards players with a talent/skills advantage but it also rewards (even more IMO) players who have only a physical advantage (See Shaq
). If they're gonna allow "wrestling" on the court, at least give the smaller guys a chance. It's a risk for the other team as someone else will get open so it evens out, I think. If there was a weight and height limit in the league, man to man only would be fine. Some guys just CANNOT be stopped by one defender alone :lol:lol:lol
Cloudy said:Same place I got my stats
I really hate to compare different eras but I hate to compare stats from a #1 option player to those a #2 option player even more
Fair enough, which is why I've always said we should wait a few years before we compare. Then again, those on the other side of the Kobe vs. MJ debates didn't seem to want to wait, so it was legal to bring whatever evidence there was to bear on the matter.
Oh and I think zone play SHOULD be legal. Illegal defense not only rewards players with a talent/skills advantage but it also rewards (even more IMO) players who have only a physical advantage (See Shaq
I dunno...
How many players really have a "physical advantage" besides Shaq? Yes, guys like Kobe/McGrady etc. have physical advantages over most players too, but I don't think that's what you were talking about. So the league should change a sound defense just because of one player? Even Duncan is not as PHYSICALLY dominant as Shaq was/is. So basically you're advocating zone defense due to just Shaq. Odd...
Illegal defense calls (as there used to be-- there still are illegal defense calls under the new rules, but they're different) don't "reward players with a talent/skill advantage" (besides which, why shouldn't those who do have that talent/skill be able to reap the rewards of that talent/skill?), because all a team used to have to do was trap and double-team dominant players if they so chose. That would (usually) effectively contain their contributions to the game. I'd say that I saw more perimeter double-teaming/trapping prior to them instituting the zone, but I see a HELL of a lot more double-teaming of post players (Duncan, Shaq, to a lesser extent KG)-- especially before they get the ball-- now that zone is allowed. Zone defense just takes the post players out of a game if a team uses it well imo, whereas perimeter players who would draw double teams under a man-to-man defense (like Kobe etc.) will still be able to get the ball because they're always in motion. So under a man-to-man system, you have less of a harmful effect on good players' abilities to use their talent to affect the game.
I just think it's bogus, and the justifications that the league gave for implementing it (none of which included "mitigating Shaq's effect on games"
) were bogus as well, and not a single one of their hopes about what it would achieve have come to fruition.
element
Member
Sonics going to win putting them at 13-2, best record in the NBA
Payton doesn't know shit! A team has to shoot 50% from the field in order to beat the Sonics, which doesn't happen that often. Not to mention that the Sonics have proven that they can face very good teams and control the game with convincing wins against the Twolves, Griz, and Spurs.
Payton doesn't know shit! A team has to shoot 50% from the field in order to beat the Sonics, which doesn't happen that often. Not to mention that the Sonics have proven that they can face very good teams and control the game with convincing wins against the Twolves, Griz, and Spurs.
Cloudy said:
I said that in the 2nd quarter when he was 3-4. He has gone ice cold from the field since then. Lakers need to develop more movement and passing coming from players other then Kobe to cut down on the TOs. Odom doesn't have the judgment and Atkins doesn't seem to have the talent, so I am hoping Vlade is the guy who facilitates the passing game. That or lets pray that Malone comes back soon.
Btw, I didn't see Vlade in the box score, why isn't he playing?
Suns #1 in the new Power Rankings!
I never thought I'd see the day...
1. Suns.
2. Spurs.
3. Sonics.
4. T-Wolves.
5. Heat.
6. Kings.
...
30. Bulls.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/powerranking?season=2005&week=4
I never thought I'd see the day...
1. Suns.
2. Spurs.
3. Sonics.
4. T-Wolves.
5. Heat.
6. Kings.
...
30. Bulls.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/powerranking?season=2005&week=4
element said:
Sonics have to make up some ground on the fact that no one expected them to be much better than one of the 3 worst teams in the Western Conference and people are still a little wary. It may not be fair, but I can see where they're coming from. If they were two games ahead of any other team, then there'd be no justification, but if they keep it up don't worry they'll be no. 1 in no time. Besides, I'd rather be under than over-respected, that way you can still feel like you are surprising people which is always fun.
Cloudy said:Miami is still overrated as hell
They are definitely overrated, but they still have a great shot of reaching the finals and then they are just an injury away from a NBA title. I still don't think Detroit was the best team last year, hell I don't even think they were the best team in the East, but they had some breaks and had enough mental toughness to take advantage of them. IMHO, if Malone's knee holds together for 2 more weeks, the Lakers win a 4th ring and who knows what would have happened after that.
Really, now that Indiana is finished and Minnesota is not clicking like last year the only dominant team is the Spurs and they are just an ankle injury away (of Manu or Duncan) from losing in the playoffs.
How is Indy finished, though? They play in the East so it's not like they won't hold it down till JO and Jax get back. Hell, they've knocked of some tops teams without 3 of their best players. Also, this Artest thing might be a blessing in disguise cos IMO he cost them game 6 in the ECF last year with his stupidity. Freddie Jones and James Jones will make up his scoring and sure they'll miss his defense but I think they'll be alright. They are still the best team in the East without him (Detroit and Miami have WEAK-ass benches) and I predict they'll be in the Finals barring injury...
Myth #1:
Miami is overrated
Myth #2:
"Now that Indiana is finished"
"Myth BUSTED!"
Miami is overrated
Myth #2:
"Now that Indiana is finished"
Code:
[b] Indiana(1) 10 4 0.714 0.0 8-2 3-0 6-2 4-2 6-4 Lost 1
Miami(2) 10 5 0.667 0.0 9-1 3-0 6-2 4-3 6-4 Won 1 [/b]
New York(3) 6 6 0.500 0.0 4-3 2-2 5-1 1-5 6-4 Won 1
Cleveland(4) 9 4 0.692 0.5 7-4 2-2 6-1 3-3 9-1 Won 3
Orlando(5) 8 4 0.667 0.5 4-3 1-2 5-1 3-3 6-4 Won 2
Washington(6) 7 5 0.583 1.5 6-4 2-2 3-2 4-3 5-5 Won 1
Detroit(7) 6 7 0.462 3.5 3-5 0-3 5-1 1-6 4-6 Lost 1
Philadelphia(8) 6 7 0.462 0.5 6-4 3-1 5-3 1-4 5-5 Lost 1"Myth BUSTED!"
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