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[SolidSnakex]

Looking at sales of TWINE and PD. It was never going to happen.

It was also released in a period when everyone was moving on to new systems, so most games weren't selling as well as they once did. I'm talking about appealing to a market that Nintendo very rarely does, that's what PD2 could've done better than any game Nintendo's developing in house right now.

 

[Deg]

I don't think they released ANYTHING worth playing for the GBA in July, yet it did this much. Probably carried over some from June.

New game releases have little effect on overall sales.

 

[Redbeard]

Problem with Xbox is that it lacks many mutlimillion selling titles its easy for Halo to clean up there.

Could this be because people are buying a wider variety of titles instead of a handful of old favorites?

 

[Broshnat]

I think that Nintendo does need to change if the want to capture more of the market- make more adult games etc.

But I doubt if they really do want to! They're still making enormous profits from their own games on the GC, which are still selling into the multi-millions. Third party software generally doesn't sell well on the cube, but do you really think Nintendo cares when they are making the profits they still are?

Saying that, the GC is definitley down from the N64 in the US in a big way, in Japan I'd say it's doin quite well, especially as they are in a slump right now.

The N64 sold something like 24M in the USA, Mario 64, GoldenEye and Mario Kart 64 sold 5-6M. It's fair to say the GC is a disappointment compared to this, although Smash Bros Melee could still hit 4M before it's through with another price drop to $20 looming.

I think when all is said and done, the GC will be around 2/3 of the N64's success in the USA. Considering the N64 did as well as the SNES before it, I dont think that's all that bad.

As long as Nintendo is still having success with it's own games and making money i can't see them wanting to change a thing.

 

[Deg]

It was also released in a period when everyone was moving on to new systems, so most games weren't selling as well as they once did. I'm talking about appealing to a market that Nintendo very rarely does, that's what PD2 could've done better than any game Nintendo's developing in house right now.

Not during that time.

Maybe you havent seen the figures as PD was outsold by many games despite huge hype, advertising and awareness. TWINE sales are proof that dumping Bond was not smart and PD failed in its purpose. Your comments are based around bashing than any real argument.

 

[human5892]

I agree with both prominent points of view in this thread: the GameCube has never received a system-selling exclusive in the vein of Halo or GTA3, but its poor sales are also largely the fault of the "kiddy" image caused by, amongst other things, the lack of "mature" games for the system, the purple launch color, the prominence of Nintendo's bright-and-cuddly games (Mario, Celda), etc. If the GC had a bona fide system-seller, it may have been able to overcome its negative image stigma; conversely, if it had a better image, it may have been able to gain sales more akin to the Xbox's, even without a killer app. With the two factors combined, though, it's really having difficulty competing.

I'm sure Nintendo is thanking the GBA left and right for keeping them going in the States right now (in terms of hardware -- I realize first-party GC games are still selling quite well), but I really think the Revolution will be their make-or-break console. It's clear that -- in the US at least -- the mass majority is tiring of Nintendo consoles. They need to do something to become relevant again, or face obscurity.

 

[Broshnat]

the mass majority is tiring of Nintendo. They need to do something to become relevant again, or face obscurity.

Rubbish !!

 

[SolidSnakex]

Not during that time.

Maybe you havent seen the figures as PD was outsold by many games despite huge hype, advertising and awareness. TWINE sales are proof that dumping Bond was not smart and PD failed in its purpose. Your comments are based around bashing than any real argument.

So if its based on bashing, what game has a better chance of bringing in more new users than a PD2 would? Dumping the Bond name was dumb, but PD still has alot of potential to be big. Nintendo has no exclusives that offer what it does.

 

[Deg]

Could this be because people are buying a wider variety of titles instead of a handful of old favorites?

Well there's always the 3rd party argument. Worth looking into. First party sales outstrip 3rd party sales which does prove that the Nintendo games do sell the systems if interest is less is in 3rd parties.

 

[human5892]

Rubbish !!

Then why these horrid numbers, even while the GC sits on shelves a full $50 cheaper than the competition? And let's not even talk about the massacre that the holidays are likely to be.

Considering the N64 did as well as the SNES before it, I dont think that's all that bad.

The SNES did considerably better than the N64, both in terms of overall worldwide sales and marketshare. Nintendo consoles have been on a sales and marketshare decline since the NES.

 

[3rdman]

The REAL problem (or at least one problem that has not been mentioned yet) is the complete and utter lack of any NEW 1st party franchises. It seems to me that Nintendo is stuck in the past with an inability to create any new franchises. Take MS for example, they've introduced several new franchises this gen like Halo, Crimson Skies, Mechassault, Knights, Fable, etc. Capcom has made DMC, Onimusha, Viewtiful Joe, etc. What has Nintendo INTRODUCED this gen???

Don't get me wrong, I love Zelda and all, but there is nothing beneficial in putting all your eggs in one basket. For arguements sake lets call this basket...oh, I don't know....Miyamoto. Yes, this basket has always been good for Ninty, but this basket hasn't created any new franchises (Pikmin doesn't count as thier is no main charecter with which to identify with) and because of that they have failed in bringing in new fans.

 

[Deg]

So if its based on bashing, what game has a better chance of bringing in more new users than a PD2 would? Dumping the Bond name was dumb, but PD still has alot of potential to be big. Nintendo has no exclusives that offer what it does.

Carry on. Your arguments are just thinly veiled bashes. if you are really arguing meaningfully then think about what you are saying about Rare and SK and their benifits.

 

[Broshnat]

Then why these horrid numbers, even while the GC sits on shelves a full $50 cheaper than the competition? And let's not even talk about the massacre that the holidays are likely to be.


The SNES did considerably better than the N64, both in terms of overall worldwide sales and marketshare. Nintendo consoles have been on a sales and marketshare decline since the NES.

The N64 actually slightly outsold the SNES in the USA and Europe. It's only because the SNES did so well in Japan that it did better overall, had many more games etc etc. Market share was different because there was no playstation in the SNES days.

There's no denying that the PS has totally changed gaming.... but is it really for the better??

More casual gamers, more people thinking it's "cool" to play videogames, more sports games, more licences.

The point has been made in the other thread, if you take sports games and licences out of the PS2 catalogue, what's left? A few big hits like GT, GTA, a few capcom / namco games, MGS and some sony games like Jak and Rachet & Clank.

Probably only as many big hits and good games as can be found on a GC though.

 

[SantaC]

The REAL problem (or at least one problem that has not been mentioned yet) is the complete and utter lack of any NEW 1st party franchises. It seems to me that Nintendo is stuck in the past with an inability to create any new franchises. Take MS for example, they've introduced several new franchises this gen like Halo, Crimson Skies, Mechassault, Knights, Fable, etc. Capcom has made DMC, Onimusha, Viewtiful Joe, etc. What has Nintendo INTRODUCED this gen???

Don't get me wrong, I love Zelda and all, but there is nothing beneficial in putting all your eggs in one basket. For arguements sake lets call this basket...oh, I don't know....Miyamoto. Yes, this basket has always been good for Ninty, but this basket hasn't created any new franchises (Pikmin doesn't count as thier is no main charecter with which to identify with) and because of that they have failed in bringing in new fans.

Pikmin does count.

 

[Doogdogg]

Not during that time.

Maybe you havent seen the figures as PD was outsold by many games despite huge hype, advertising and awareness. TWINE sales are proof that dumping Bond was not smart and PD failed in its purpose. Your comments are based around bashing than any real argument.

I don't think every 8 million buyers of GoldenEye 007 would be willing to pay for an expansion pack to play PD at its full contents. As SSX also noted, PD missed the Christmas season, and it came out months later when people were saving up for PS2, Dreamcast systems.

FFIX also came out on a dead Playstation. The game didn't sell over 1.5 milion units when PS userbase is at an all time high in the U.S

 

[SolidSnakex]

The point has been made in the other thread, if you take sports games and licences out of the PS2 catalogue, what's left? A few big hits like GT, GTA, a few capcom / namco games, MGS and some sony games like Jak and Rachet & Clank.

LOL You make it out like thsoe games are no big deal. GTA and GT are only the 2 biggest selling games this generation. No big deal.

 

[human5892]

The REAL problem (or at least one problem that has not been mentioned yet) is the complete and utter lack of any NEW 1st party franchises. It seems to me that Nintendo is stuck in the past with an inability to create any new franchises. Take MS for example, they've introduced several new franchises this gen like Halo, Crimson Skies, Mechassault, Knights, Fable, etc. Capcom has made DMC, Onimusha, Viewtiful Joe, etc. What has Nintendo INTRODUCED this gen???

Pikmin. I would also count Metroid Prime as it really reinvented the franchise. There's also Animal Crossing (an N64 port, true, but it was never released in the US, which is what this thread is discussing). I don't think that argument holds weight -- and if it does, it's certainly not the all-encompassing "REAL problem", especially when Nintendo's older franchises still sell fantastically well.

 

[Cimarron]

"
Except for, you know, the other four Resident Evil games that didn't do so hot"

Really how many units did Outbreak sell?

 

[Broshnat]

The REAL problem (or at least one problem that has not been mentioned yet) is the complete and utter lack of any NEW 1st party franchises. It seems to me that Nintendo is stuck in the past with an inability to create any new franchises. Take MS for example, they've introduced several new franchises this gen like Halo, Crimson Skies, Mechassault, Knights, Fable, etc. Capcom has made DMC, Onimusha, Viewtiful Joe, etc. What has Nintendo INTRODUCED this gen???

Don't get me wrong, I love Zelda and all, but there is nothing beneficial in putting all your eggs in one basket. For arguements sake lets call this basket...oh, I don't know....Miyamoto. Yes, this basket has always been good for Ninty, but this basket hasn't created any new franchises (Pikmin doesn't count as thier is no main charecter with which to identify with) and because of that they have failed in bringing in new fans.

Well that's a flawed argument straight away. You have Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Donkey Konga, Eternal Darkness and Starfox Adventures straight away. It can be argued that Metroid Prime is a big departurre from previous Metroid games as well.

DMC and Onimusha have as much in common with RE (esp Onimusha) as Mario Sunshine does with Mario 64.

Kirby's Air Ride, perhaps? Old character, new game- too similar to Mario Kart maybe?

I agree that there are not enough original games around now, that's my main point, but to say that Nintendo is the worst offender of this is absurd!!

There has been nobody over the years who has been more original or productive than Nintendo.

 

[human5892]

The N64 actually slightly outsold the SNES in the USA and Europe. It's only because the SNES did so well in Japan that it did better overall, had many more games etc etc. Market share was different because there was no playstation in the SNES days.

Why discount Japan? We're not talking Microsoft here.

The point has been made in the other thread, if you take sports games and licences out of the PS2 catalogue, what's left? A few big hits like GT, GTA, a few capcom / namco games, MGS and some sony games like Jak and Rachet & Clank.

I don't understand why we are taking sports games and licensed games out of the equation all of a sudden. Yes, many of the latter are crap, and many of the former are just minor upgrades every year. But there are some bona fide quality games in those categories, as well, whether you enjoy their gameplay or not. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone wanted to remove all franchise games from the equation. That would make Nintendo's sales pretty pathetic, but that doesn't mean that view is accurate.

 

[wazoo]

Mario, Zelda are systems sellers. The problem is that they do not help to expand the GC userbase, which is a different thing. SSBM is more or less at the same sales level as Halo worldwide, but still it targets the same userbase. Nintendo has many multi million sellers, but they do sell to the same userbase. That is why the GC is not selling anymore.

Unless we got a miracle (Golden Eye was a miracle) the situation of the GC will not change.

At least, the Gc should be to go up to 25M sales on its own (5M by year for the next 2 years) , which is not so far from N64 sales and a good start for next generation, where a solution will have to be found.

Games like GTA, Halo or Golden Eye are miracles. It is easy to say, you should have it on your side, but before they got success, nobody would have bet on them, at least on such a large scale success.

 

[DarienA]

The point has been made in the other thread, if you take sports games and licences out of the PS2 catalogue, what's left? A few big hits like GT, GTA, a few capcom / namco games, MGS and some sony games like Jak and Rachet & Clank.

Please point me to the thread where this weak attempt at making a "point" is. I can't believe that tired ass argument was dusted off and dragged out... again.

 

[Deg]

I don't think every 8 million buyers of GoldenEye 007 would be willing to pay for an expansion pack to play PD at its full contents. As SSX also noted, PD missed the Christmas season, and it came out months later when people were saving up for PS2, Dreamcast systems.

Check the sales however. PD didnt do as well it should have. When games like Turok 2, TWINE manage to sell comparably things are wrong. The game didnt have enough appeal.
So it was worth keeping Rare and SK? Rare and SK were doing more damage than good. For every mature title Rare has they had 15 crap kid only games to take up the shelves. Infact no Rare has helped Nintendo's image as Nintendo franchises get more psotlight and a more positive spotlight as the games are far better. SK just make crap games and would turn away more adults.

 

[Gorgie]

What I like to see Nintendo do is advertise the hell out of Donkey Konga. As far as I know, no other console has a bongo drum accessory, so it's unique. Instead of trying to steal the thunder from GTA:SA and Halo 2 with Paper Mario 2 and Metroid Prime 2, which will a difficult, and near impossible battle, they should make the Gamecube the PARTY BOX!

Have commercials where 2 guys and 2 girls are playing such games as Double Dash, Donkey Konga, and Metroid 2 multiplayer. Show them having tons of fun. Besides, at Christmas, what people want is to share the fun times, so Nintendo should put the cube in that position to make it happen.

Then when RE hits in January, advertise the hell out of it, movie trailers, prime time (not late night) commercials, magazine ads, maybe even bus ads, or bill boards. This title has the chance of really shifting the public perception of the Gamecube, which brings us to 2005...

RETURN OF THE KING!

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Then why these horrid numbers, even while the GC sits on shelves a full $50 cheaper than the competition? And let's not even talk about the massacre that the holidays are likely to be.

cause you can fucking play music/dvds on xbox ps2? The price difference is great yes. But you have to consider what you are getting. For a consumer, paying 50 more dollars for music/dvd (and mp3 or whatever the fuck the xbox does) is probably worth it.

Again not surprising how/why people/consumers will pick the ps2/xbox.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Actually, there's been FIVE RE games on the GC: REmake, 0, 2, 3, Code Veronica X, and now, there's going to be RE4.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Please point me to the thread where this weak attempt at making a "point" is. I can't believe that tired ass argument was dusted off and dragged out... again.

Here you go:

http://ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=10471&page=4

 

[Broshnat]

LOL You make it out like thsoe games are no big deal. GTA and GT are only the 2 biggest selling games this generation. No big deal.

Not that they are no big deal, but that they are not that far ahead of the big hits on the GC in terms of reviews or sales.

The enormous success of "casual" games like licences and sports hugely boost the PS2's success.

 

[Broshnat]

Plus the DVD playback of the GC and XB are a huge boost.

 

[clipunderground]

No, the real problem is lack of the varied and vast 3rd party support the other consoles get. The selection of games available is just miniscule comparatively. Also, how many times have top franchises been given the shaft on Nintendo's console while both the PS2 and Xbox there to reap the benefits? All this in combination with practically non-existant online support and a bad image all factor in to making Nintendo lose out this generation.

 

[human5892]

cause you can fucking play music/dvds on xbox ps2? The price difference is great yes. But you have to consider what you are getting. For a consumer, paying 50 more dollars for music/dvd (and mp3 or whatever the fuck the xbox does) is probably worth it.

Again not surprising how/why people/consumers will pick the ps2/xbox.

Come on, that argument doesn't hold weight anymore. Say it in reference to the PS2 three years ago and I might give it to you, but now that each system has hundreds of games to choose from I doubt the DVD playing is much of a factor for buyers.

The fact is, the GC is a damned cheap console. $99 is not a lot of money, and it's especially reasonable when you have two other machines sitting next to it for $50 more. This makes months like this, where the GC failed to move even half the units of its closet competitor, even more alarming.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Not that they are no big deal, but that they are not that far ahead of the big hits on the GC in terms of reviews or sales..

I'll have what ever you're smoking.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Not that they are no big deal, but that they are not that far ahead of the big hits on the GC in terms of reviews or sales.

The enormous success of "casual" games like licences and sports hugely boost the PS2's success.

They're not far ahead? What GC game sold 6 million in the US or even managed to sell half of that? What GC game has sold 3.5 million in the US? GTA and GT are far ahead of anything Nintendo's releasing this year in terms of sales. Reviews or another thing although GTA and GT will be right in line with any big game released this year in that category. They'll be well ahead of most other big games in terms of sales though.

 

[Makura]

GC doesn't exactly offer what mainstream gamers crave. It certainly delivers what I crave in spades, but thats inconsequential.

Oh, and why the sudden success with SEGA's sports titles? Haven't those titles consistently been doing horribly since SEGA went third-party?

 

[djtiesto]

The N64 actually slightly outsold the SNES in the USA and Europe. It's only because the SNES did so well in Japan that it did better overall, had many more games etc etc. Market share was different because there was no playstation in the SNES days.

There's no denying that the PS has totally changed gaming.... but is it really for the better??

More casual gamers, more people thinking it's "cool" to play videogames, more sports games, more licences.

The point has been made in the other thread, if you take sports games and licences out of the PS2 catalogue, what's left? A few big hits like GT, GTA, a few capcom / namco games, MGS and some sony games like Jak and Rachet & Clank.

Probably only as many big hits and good games as can be found on a GC though.

I think PS1 changed gaming for the better... it was the first system to have a majority of obscure games and RPGs released in the US, without the imposing censorship Nintendo used to have. Sure, there are rough spots (SCEA's idiotic anti 2-D policy), but even the godly SNES, many of its best games weren't fit to see stateside release.

How did the PS1 make gaming "cool" anyways? All I remember was their dumb "you are not ready" commercials.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Come on, that argument doesn't hold weight anymore. Say it in reference to the PS2 three years ago and I might give it to you, but now that each system has hundreds of games to choose from I doubt the DVD playing is much of a factor for buyers.

The fact is, the GC is a damned cheap console. $99 is not a lot of money, and it's especially reasonable when you have two other machines sitting next to it for $50 more. This makes months like this, where the GC failed to move even half the units of its closet competitor, even more alarming.

but you're not thinking like a consumer. Spend real money and you'll see you get money for your money on the ps2/xbox. You get a extra dvd player in your bedroom if you like. DVD playback is ALWAYS going to be a factor - in fact, if you'r skinty, just the amount of plastic your money gets you on a ps2.xbox makes it worthwhile

+

on the xbox. MS is subsidising you free harddrive (memcardless.. so good for the consumer)... all real reasons to buy these consoles.

 

[3rdman]

Well that's a flawed argument straight away. You have Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Donkey Konga, Eternal Darkness and Starfox Adventures straight away. It can be argued that Metroid Prime is a big departurre from previous Metroid games as well.

DMC and Onimusha have as much in common with RE (esp Onimusha) as Mario Sunshine does with Mario 64.

Kirby's Air Ride, perhaps? Old character, new game- too similar to Mario Kart maybe?

I agree that there are not enough original games around now, that's my main point, but to say that Nintendo is the worst offender of this is absurd!!

There has been nobody over the years who has been more original or productive than Nintendo.

I'm sorry...I should have clarified my argument a little better. What I mean to say is that there is not enough 1ST PARTY mature titles. Yes, Nintendo can produce the Zeldas and the Marios. They can even create the Metroids (which is still an old franchise regardless of how long its been since the last installment) but they simply haven't created the Halo/Killzone type of game. BTW, Eternal Darkness was a 2nd party title, no? Either way, it didn't sell well and theres been no attempt to fill that need from within Nintendo. They've relied purely on 3rd party's to fill that void.

 

[clipunderground]

but you're not thinking like a consumer. Spend real money and you'll see you get money for your money on the ps2/xbox. You get a extra dvd player in your bedroom if you like. DVD playback is ALWAYS going to be a factor - in fact, if you'r skinty, just the amount of plastic your money gets you on a ps2.xbox makes it worthwhile

+

on the xbox. MS is subsidising you free harddrive (memcardless.. so good for the consumer)... all real reasons to buy these consoles.

this is another great point.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

How did the PS1 make gaming "cool" anyways? All I remember was their dumb "you are not ready" commercials.

1) It wasn't blurry

2) Licensed music : redbook (see Wipeout)

3) FMV

 

[wazoo]

I think PS1 changed gaming for the better... it was the first system to have a majority of obscure games and RPGs released in the US, without the imposing censorship Nintendo used to have. Sure, there are rough spots (SCEA's idiotic anti 2-D policy), but even the godly SNES, many of its best games weren't fit to see stateside release.

That has nothing to do with Nintendo censorship. It has to do with CART/CD costs. now you can take an onscure game, just burn a few 10K ex and see if it sells. you could not do that in the cart days.

 

[human5892]

but you're not thinking like a consumer. Spend real money and you'll see you get money for your money on the ps2/xbox. You get a extra dvd player in your bedroom if you like. DVD playback is ALWAYS going to be a factor - in fact, if you'r skinty, just the amount of plastic your money gets you on a ps2.xbox makes it worthwhile

+

on the xbox. MS is subsidising you free harddrive (memcardless.. so good for the consumer)... all real reasons to buy these consoles.

That would make sense if the GC was the same price as the other two consoles -- then you'd be getting more for your money. It would also be more of a relevant point if DVD players were expensive (as they were when the PS2 launched), not $40 or whatever you can get a cheap one for these days.

I'll concede that this might be a small factor, but it's certainly nowhere near the horrendous image problems that Nintendo is facing now.

 

[Deku Tree]

but they simply haven't created the Halo/Killzone type of game. BTW, Eternal Darkness was a 2nd party title, no? Either way, it didn't sell well and theres been no attempt to fill that need from within Nintendo. They've relied purely on 3rd party's to fill that void.

Nintendo worked hard to get MGS:TTS on the GC but GC gamers didn't buy enough of it.

 

[Deg]

On thing worth pointing out is that most people dont buy second consoles. This one area where Nintendo went quite wrong.

 

[Broshnat]

I'm sorry...I should have clarified my argument a little better. What I mean to say is that there is not enough 1ST PARTY mature titles. Yes, Nintendo can produce the Zeldas and the Marios. They can even create the Metroids (which is still an old franchise regardless of how long its been since the last installment) but they simply haven't created the Halo/Killzone type of game. BTW, Eternal Darkness was a 2nd party title, no? Either way, it didn't sell well and theres been no attempt to fill that need from within Nintendo. They've relied purely on 3rd party's to fill that void.

How has "new 1st party franchises" changed to "1st party mature titles"?

Why doesn't a new, non-mature title count as innovation?

 

[DarienA]

Here you go:

http://ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=10471&page=4

Oh ok so Bros made himself look like an idiot in another thread... and felt the need to highlight that again in this thread.... ouch.. I'm sorry Bros just because you don't take a certain category of games seriously...well that doesn't mean much.

 

[Deg]

Nintendo worked hard to get MGS:TTS on the GC but GC gamers didn't buy enough of it.

alot of that has to do with the fact that the target audiences for the consoles are fixed now. Its too late for changes.

 

[3rdman]

Nintendo worked hard to get MGS:TTS on the GC but GC gamers didn't buy enough of it.

MGS:TTS is a remake, a 2nd party title, and its not a new frnachise.

 

[djtiesto]

1) It wasn't blurry

2) Licensed music : redbook (see Wipeout)

3) FMV

2 and 3 they've had since the Turbo CD/Sega CD days... Most PSX games (at least RPGs) didn't really use redbook all too much, you'll find that mostly on the older CD systems. Got a Duo a few months ago, you can tell this is an oldskool CD system... games have awesome soundtracks that you can play in the CD player, and games are so easy to pirate (the system reads burned CDs!!!!!)

Though the Wipeout games admittedly had some of the best soundtracks and atmospheres in gaming... Most of my friends in school actually owned N64s, I was surprised at... since back at home, everyone owned PSX.

 

[Broshnat]

That has nothing to do with Nintendo censorship. It has to do with CART/CD costs. now you can take an onscure game, just burn a few 10K ex and see if it sells. you could not do that in the cart days.

OK, another question for you- if the N64 had come out a year earlier and was CD based, would the market be different now?

 

[SolidSnakex]

How has "new 1st party franchises" changed to "1st party mature titles"?

Why doesn't a new, non-mature title count as innovation?

They can be innovative, no one is saying they can't. They just aren't going to appeal to people outside of Nintendo's own fanbase. That's the games they need to go along with the games they already make.