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[SolidSnakex]

Outside of Bond what did they have? Banjo kazzoie? Mickey Mouse racing? You call that a developer for adults?

PD isnt exactly appealing to adults. I wonder if you have played the game because its far more colourful and filled with kids saturday morning acting. The sales also point to only diehard loyalists buying the game nobody else.

PD was an adult oriented game. Yes it was colorful, but it starred humans, had a mature plot and theme, and was pretty violent. You can just look at the marketing campaign they used for PD and tell that it wasn't being marketed toward the same market as your average Nintendo game was.

 

[Broshnat]

Some pizownage right thur.

What??

How did GTA:VC push hardware sales?

 

[Lukas]

What??

How did GTA:VC push hardware sales?

look at PS2 numbers before Vice City and look at PS2 numbers AFTER Vice City

 

[Deg]

PD was an adult oriented game. Yes it was colorful, but it starred humans, had a mature plot and theme, and was pretty violent. You can just look at the marketing campaign they used for PD and tell that it wasn't being marketed toward the same market as your average Nintendo game was.

You can argue as much as you like but the game did pitiful for a sequel to GE.

 

[human5892]

Before they did that, they'd have to be sure that they'd off of third party game sales than first party. Right now, I don't believe they would - just look at the other thread and see how "well" non-licensed games, which make up 99% of Nintendo's offerings, are doing on the PS2/Xbox.

One reason for Nintendo's success as a software developer is that they have perfected the art of selling their games to people who buy their system. This isn't just a tiny sales bump, it's ginormous...I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Nintendo's hardware drives the sales of their software, moreso than the other way around.

Hmm, good point. I can't see a game like SSB:M moving more than a few hundred thousand on rival hardware.

Then again, if Nintendo and whomever they went with (I think a 2nd party situation would actually work best) made a big enough deal about it, perhaps all the existing Nintendo fans who make their franchises such mega-hits would go with them.

Admittedly, it's entirely too early to be speculating about such things, especially when the worldwide situation is not nearly as dire as this one month in the US. I'm mostly just speculating, and the dearth of GC sales this month is making me err on the negative side of things, I think.

 

[Prine]

Exactly... I can't see Halo 2 having much of an impact on XB sales since most people already have the system to play Halo 1.

Halo is still selling Xboxes, Halo 2 will only excellerate Xbox's sales this Xmas. Look around, many people are posting that they'll buy an xbox and XBL for Halo 2.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Nintendo probably has everything to do with the Star Fox delay. No doubt they were very dissapointed with the luke warm reaction to the on foot missions @ e3.

but a delay just after xmas? Why do people think that a slight delay can fix broken gameplay - I would say its to add more polish. It Namco can't get the game fun after years of dev time... a delay of 2-3 months ISN'T going to help

 

[Broshnat]

look at PS2 numbers before Vice City and look at PS2 numbers AFTER Vice City

2002 / 06 (June) 693,651 264,618 213,100 553,466
2002 / 07 (July) 435,536 154,204 137,790 323,587
2002 / 08 (August) 454,727 137,277 128,122 267,747
2002 / 09 (September) 535,000 172,748 167,162 280,510
2002 / 10 (October) 535,289 239,085 168,276 314,183
2002 / 11 (November) 1,318,000 468,000 468,000 1,283,000
2002 / 12 (December) 2,733,000 1,033,000 619,000 2,215,000

Came out in October, yeah?

Wow, +289 sales. Had a huge effect

 

[Lukas]

many people on forums are also saying they will buy a Xbox if Fable is good

 

[human5892]

2002 / 06 (June) 693,651 264,618 213,100 553,466
2002 / 07 (July) 435,536 154,204 137,790 323,587
2002 / 08 (August) 454,727 137,277 128,122 267,747
2002 / 09 (September) 535,000 172,748 167,162 280,510
2002 / 10 (October) 535,289 239,085 168,276 314,183
2002 / 11 (November) 1,318,000 468,000 468,000 1,283,000
2002 / 12 (December) 2,733,000 1,033,000 619,000 2,215,000

Came out in October, yeah?

Wow, +289 sales. Had a huge effect

Some pizownage right thur.

 

[jarrod]

SK was definetly a step in the right direction, having them create a game in an already dying genre was a bad step. Nintendo would've been smart just to have SK can ED, or put it on hold and have them focus on Too Human. But as SK and RARE have shown, they try but they give up too soon. Not every mature game is going to be a hit just not like every family oriented game is going to sell.

Well they had Rare signed on for 8 years and Silicon Knights for 5... how much longer should they have funded these studios? C'mon even Microsoft gave up on Oddworld in less time. Rare had been on a downward sprial since 1998 and SK never even had one hit... dropping both was a good idea, especially in favor of expanding internal R&D (Retro, Tokyo Studio) and 3rd party collaberation (Donkey Konga, F-Zero GX, Geist, etc).

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Admittedly, part of Nintendo's "art of selling first party games" is tied into rotten 3rd party support. It's obvious that their numbers are always going to be slightly inflated when they don't get a lot of big 3rd party sellers. But that's rarely recognized when people are in awe of their first party game numbers.

 

[Jumpman]

This thread is stupid. Whenever Bunkum decides to post all his numbers, I suggest it be in a new, non stupid thread.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

many people on forums are also saying they will buy a Xbox if Fable is good

gamefaqs? news to me.

 

[Lukas]

gamefaqs? news to me.

actually right here on GA in the IGN 12 page hands on for Fable many people have stated they will buy a Xbox if Fable scores well

 

[PhatSaqs]

The PS2 had it's best X-Mas season ever that year. Compare the Nov/Dec sales to 2001 & 2003. Coincidence?

 

[T-1000_Model3]

2002 / 06 (June) 693,651 264,618 213,100 553,466
2002 / 07 (July) 435,536 154,204 137,790 323,587
2002 / 08 (August) 454,727 137,277 128,122 267,747
2002 / 09 (September) 535,000 172,748 167,162 280,510
2002 / 10 (October) 535,289 239,085 168,276 314,183
2002 / 11 (November) 1,318,000 468,000 468,000 1,283,000
2002 / 12 (December) 2,733,000 1,033,000 619,000 2,215,000

Came out in October, yeah?

Wow, +289 sales. Had a huge effect

I could be wrong,but wasn't GTA 3 a late bloomer? It didn't start tearing up the charts till 2 or 3 months after it was out. Where are your GTA3 numbers as well?

 

[Link316]

PD's development started during and straight after GE apparently. Apparently more freedom according to Rare was better...

its really not their call, they probably had as much freedom as they did when Nintendo slapped the Star Fox license onto Dinosaur Planet

 

[Deg]

Halo is still selling Xboxes, Halo 2 will only excellerate Xbox's sales this Xmas. Look around, many people are posting that they'll buy an xbox and XBL for Halo 2.

Its XBox selling Halo not the otherway round. Halo is pushed so hard its hard to not buy Halo when you own a Xbox. On other systems there are simply more games that sell huge so the attention that halo gets simply cannot be acheived on those consoles.

 

[Deku Tree]

but a delay just after xmas? Why do people think that a slight delay can fix broken gameplay - I would say its to add more polish. It Namco can't get the game fun after years of dev time... a delay of 2-3 months ISN'T going to help

True but maybe it'll be delayed again and they're just letting the fans down easy.
Or maybe it isn't delayed... didn't camp hyrule just say it wasn't delayed?

 

[carbonbased]

The REAL problem (or at least one problem that has not been mentioned yet) is the complete and utter lack of any NEW 1st party franchises. It seems to me that Nintendo is stuck in the past with an inability to create any new franchises. Take MS for example, they've introduced several new franchises this gen like Halo, Crimson Skies, Mechassault, Knights, Fable, etc. Capcom has made DMC, Onimusha, Viewtiful Joe, etc. What has Nintendo INTRODUCED this gen???

Don't get me wrong, I love Zelda and all, but there is nothing beneficial in putting all your eggs in one basket. For arguements sake lets call this basket...oh, I don't know....Miyamoto. Yes, this basket has always been good for Ninty, but this basket hasn't created any new franchises (Pikmin doesn't count as thier is no main charecter with which to identify with) and because of that they have failed in bringing in new fans.

Crimson Skies - old PC franchise
Mechassault - simplified MechWarrior game, same franchise
KOTOR - Bioware/Lucasarts
Fable - Lionheart (but published by MS)

Pikmin doesn't count? Name the main "charecter" to identify with in Mechassault.

 

[human5892]

The PS2 had it's best X-Mas season ever that year. Coincidence?

No, probably not coincidence...but if those numbers are accurate, GTA:VC was hardly a big system-seller. Hell, with an increase of that relatively small size, it's really impossible to say whether it even was responsible or not.

When people talk about Halo 2 being an Xbox system seller, I doubt they mean a 289k increase; especially during the holidays, that's chump change.

 

[JayFro]

So this trend of Xbox nipping at the heels of Sony continues huh?

IMO a couple of things are happening here.

#1 Xbox is starting to graphically outshine the PS2 and many people are starting to take notice of this as well as Xbox Live and not needing memory cards.

#2 Xbox is starting to get better console exclusive titles and hit hard last fall with Crimson Skies, Rainbow Six 3, Topspin, Project Gotham 2, and Counter Strike. Did any of those titles do HUGE numbers? No, but it's about having many great titles and not just a few.

#3 I can go to my local EB or Gamestop and pick up games like The Suffering, NFL2K5, Chronicles of Riddick, Full Spectrum Warrior, Psi-Ops, Ninja Gaiden, Splinter Cell PT (online), and a host of other fairly popular titles that aren't available on Gamecube or lack things in the Xbox version.

These titles may not be tearing up the charts in sales, but overall people have the option to buy them and are buying them. You simply can't get them on Gamecube. It's clear that the majority of gamers are sports, racing, rpg, and action fans. Gamecube is severely lacking in these areas and casual gamers don't want what Nintendo has to offer. So Nintendo has a choice, either start making what people want or prepare to come in 3rd next gen as well.

Nintendo doesn't offer the online play that MS or Sony do. They don't have Grand Theft Auto, Sega Sports, and Midway.

Yes Sega Sports and Midway are smaller on a large scale, but when you lose good games you lose good games. People go to the game store and find out they can't buy those titles and what do you think they are going to choose? Clearly PS2 or Xbox.

 

[Lukas]

rofl fable is lionheart? wtf is lionheart

 

[Link316]

but a delay just after xmas? Why do people think that a slight delay can fix broken gameplay - I would say its to add more polish. It Namco can't get the game fun after years of dev time... a delay of 2-3 months ISN'T going to help

they're spreading out their releases to try to make it seem like there's a constant flow of software, most of us already been through this with the N64

 

[SolidSnakex]

Well they had Rare signed on for 8 years and Silicon Knights for 5... how much longer should they have funded these studios?

If you're going to get rid of studios that produce games like that, atleast get some to replace them that also do that. For a company that was so multiplayer driven last generation, they've completely ignored the genre that boosted their multiplayer moreso than anything else (FPS with GE). They're now trying to address that with MP2, but I really doubt it's going to do much good. They need something more in line with a HALO/Killzone.

 

[Lukas]

system sellers have more to do in the long run than the short term. a system seller is a game that propels the IMAGE of the system into the mainstream, thus consistantly selling over a long period of time.

system sellers have never been known to make huge console sales in a single month or 2, unless at the very launch of a system

 

[PhatSaqs]

When people talk about Halo 2 being an Xbox system seller, I doubt they mean a 289k increase; especially during the holidays, that's chump change.

I doubt they mean the increase in sales only attributable for the given month the game launches either.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

actually right here on GA in the IGN 12 page hands on for Fable many people have stated they will buy a Xbox if Fable scores well

so.. what's the number for MANY people? Talk about reaching. 12 pages on any forum could be the same people posting multiple times.

I will not junk my xbox is Fable turns out any good. So 1 here.



* GTA VC.

the GTA 3 + VC did what even FFX and GT3 couldn't. Added a serious cache of I MUST HAVE THIS GAME for the PS2 (or I must get a PS2 for this game). Preorders prove this.

The influence is in

1) sales

2) me too clones

 

[Deg]

So this trend of Xbox nipping at the heels of Sony continues huh?

IMO a couple of things are happening here.

#1 Xbox is starting to graphically outshine the PS2 and many people are starting to take notice of this as well as Xbox Live and not needing memory cards.

#2 Xbox is starting to get better console exclusive titles and hit hard last fall with Crimson Skies, Rainbow Six 3, Topspin, Project Gotham 2, and Counter Strike. Did any of those titles do HUGE numbers? No, but it's about having many great titles and not just a few.

#3 I can go to my local EB or Gamestop and pick up games like The Suffering, NFL2K5, Chronicles of Riddick, Full Spectrum Warrior, Psi-Ops, Ninja Gaiden, Splinter Cell PT (online), and a host of other fairly popular titles that aren't available on Gamecube or lack things in the Xbox version.

These titles may not be tearing up the charts in sales, but overall people have the option to buy them and are buying them. You simply can't get them on Gamecube. It's clear that the majority of gamers are sports, racing, rpg, and action fans. Gamecube is severely lacking in these areas and casual gamers don't want what Nintendo has to offer. So Nintendo has a choice, either start making what people want or prepare to come in 3rd next gen as well.

Nintendo doesn't offer the online play that MS or Sony do. They don't have Grand Theft Auto, Sega Sports, and Midway.

Yes Sega Sports and Midway are smaller on a large scale, but when you lose good games you lose good games. People go to the game store and find out they can't buy those titles and what do you think they are going to choose? Clearly PS2 or Xbox.

Ps2 will always outsell Xbox and the gap will only get bigger.

 

[Lukas]

all im saying is Fable and Halo 2 and Microsofts and Xboxs last chances to catapult the system into further mainstream sucess than it already is. Otherwise if those 2 games dont do it nothing will.

 

[human5892]

I doubt they mean the increase in sales only attributable for the given month the game launches either.

Oops, I didn't see your edit. I also misread the chart, evidenced by my statement that the increase was 289k, not 289. My apologies.

I still think we would need more data to see whether or not GTA:VC really moved PS2s (like hardware sales after the holidays, for instance), but I can't disagree on this data -- which I managed to misinterpret -- alone.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

rofl fable is lionheart? wtf is lionheart

the dev house? I can't remember the name but he is right. lionhead. whatever. It the P.Molyneux dev house. ROFL @ you.

 

[Lukas]

the dev house? I can't remember the name but he is right. lionhead. whatever. It the P.Molyneux dev house. ROFL @ you.

its lionhead and I dont see the point your are making

is lionhead some sort of franchise? or bioware? those are companies

 

[jarrod]

If you're going to get rid of studios that produce games like that, atleast get some to replace them that also do that.

Like Retro Studios, Brownie Brown or the new Tokyo R&D? Why fund outside companies, why not expand your own development and work with partners when it makes sense (Namco, Capcom, Amusment Vision, Eighting, Hudson Soft, n-Space, Kuju, etc)?

For a company that was so multiplayer driven last generation, they've completely ignored the genre that boosted their multiplayer moreso than anything else (FPS with GE). They're now trying to address that with MP2, but I really doubt it's going to do much good. They need something more in line with a HALO/Killzone.

Well, I think that's why they picked up Geist (though it's not really in the same league, not that Halo & KillZone are either though). I'd say Mario Kart 64 was a more significant multiplayer N64 game though...

 

[JayFro]

Ps2 will always outsell Xbox and the gap will only get bigger.

Keep talking chachi, I've got two games for ya.........Halo 2 and Fable. Nobody around here ever thought Xbox would outsell PS2 for even one month and it happened. Nobody thinks Xbox will ever start to outsell PS2 on a regular basis. The PS2 is starting to look outdated and people that play online are starting to notice the difference on Xbox Live. Word of mouth about Xbox being the superior console is spreading and Xbox is closing the gap on PS2.

Remember when PS2 would double Xbox sales? Not anymore.

 

[jarrod]

its lionhead and I dont see the point your are making

is lionhead some sort of franchise? or bioware? those are companies

Lionhead is the publisher, Big Blue Box is the developer.

 

[JayFro]

all im saying is Fable and Halo 2 and Microsofts and Xboxs last chances to catapult the system into further mainstream sucess than it already is. Otherwise if those 2 games dont do it nothing will.

Don't forget about Splinter Cell 3 and KOTOR 2. This could be a big fall/winter for MS if they drop that price to $129.

 

[Lukas]

Don't forget about Splinter Cell 3 and KOTOR 2.

those will nowhere near have the effect of Fable or Halo 2. Those are the 2 most hyped games on Xbox, possibly across all consoles and PC even, period.

 

[Odysseus]

Lionhead is the publisher, Big Blue Box is the developer.

Actually, Microsoft is the publisher. Big Blue Box is the developer, which is basically an offshoot of Lionhead.

And now it all makes sense.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Keep talking chachi, I've got two games for ya.........Halo 2 and Fable. Nobody around here ever thought Xbox would outsell PS2 for even one month and it happened. Nobody thinks Xbox will ever start to outsell PS2 on a regular basis. The PS2 is starting to look outdated and people that play online are starting to notice the difference on Xbox Live. Word of mouth about Xbox being the superior console is spreading and Xbox is closing the gap on PS2.

Remember when PS2 would double Xbox sales? Not anymore.

lol @ junior member.

INSTALLED BASE.

 

[ge-man]

True but maybe it'll be delayed again and they're just letting the fans down easy.
Or maybe it isn't delayed... didn't camp hyrule just say it wasn't delayed?

I saw that somewhere else as well. I wish we can get an offical word, though. The reps for that Camp Hyrule thing may not be totally aware of what's going down at Namco and NCL. It's not unusual for something like that to happen.

 

[jarrod]

Actually, Microsoft is the publisher. Big Blue Box is the developer, which is basically an offshoot of Lionhead.

And now it all makes sense.

Isn't Lionhead the Euro publisher still though? BBB being one of their studios?

 

[madara]

Alot seems to be timing too. Even if Nintendo does everything right if its past two year mark it has little effect, which is a shame. Just imagine how different GC could have been had this new zelda, re4, etc been released 6 months after system release and not at the end of a dying one. They seem stuck in this cycle, hopefully mario will be right there but clearly zelda revolution will be 2 years out at least.

 

[Lukas]

Isn't Lionhead the Euro publisher still though? BBB being one of their studios?

No MS is publishing Fable world wide. BBB is the developer. Lionhead has very little to do with Fable other than they are the parent studio of BBB.

 

[ge-man]

Alot seems to be timing too. Even if Nintendo does everything right if its past two year mark it has little effect, which is a shame. Just imagine how different GC could have been had this new zelda, re4, etc been released 6 months after system release and not at the end of a dying one. They seem stuck in this cycle, hopefully mario will be right there but clearly zelda revolution will be 2 years out at least.

It's all timing quite frankly. The direction of this generation was largely determined at launch time.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Like Retro Studios, Brownie Brown or the new Tokyo R&D? Why fund outside companies, why not expand your own development and work with partners when it makes sense (Namco, Capcom, Amusment Vision, Eighting, Hudson Soft, n-Space, Kuju, etc)?

In terms of replacing RARE's appeal to different groups with games like GE and PD, none of those companies you listed first have done anything to top them. All those 3rd parties are nice, but Nintendo just has them working Nintendo franchises, which isn't going to cause any new appeal. n-Space is doing Geist ofcourse, although at this point it's basically getting completely ignored compared to stuff like KZ and HALO.

 

[JayFro]

lol @ junior member.

INSTALLED BASE.

Well no shit captain obvious, but I wasn't talking about install base. It just bodes well for MS when you consider the next gen wars. The fact that they are even close to PS2 on a monthly basis is something none of you would have thought about even 6 months ago.

 

[wazoo]

OK, another question for you- if the N64 had come out a year earlier and was CD based, would the market be different now?

Maybe Square would not have left, so be Enix, and Japan history will be different.

As for knowing, which company would have been on top, it is quite difficult, but the difference between Sony and Nintendo would have at least much shorter. N64 library would have been bigger, 3rd party games would have been better and much cheaper. That does not mean Sony would have been obliterated, but the fight would have been more balanced.

 

[Lukas]

A lot of factors effecting the sales of a system is also the installed base. If all your friends have Console C, then most likely you will buy Console C because a majority of your friends already have games for it that you can borrow and play.

People are forgetting this factor and this is a major factor contributing to the sucess of the PS2.