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Nuclear experts: Fukushima is much worse than Japan is letting on. Leaks everywhere.
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OminoMichelin
Member
Yes? That's what I said in my previous post.
I don't know if people on Gaf have a problem with others agreeing with them....
Earthstrike
Member
Hydro is usually built to capacity in every developed country because of this fact. i.e. All available sources of hydroelectric power are already built.
FlashFlooder
Member
US has more than 20 plants with this same design. Some of the actually ARE on the beach, too.
Don't worry though guys, we're working on those Fukushima-based upgrades!
As far as the situation in Japan is concerned, I wish TEPCO would treat this with a little more urgency. The one thing I haven't been able to pinpoint, after reading MANY of these reports, is what exactly the leaking water is contaminated WITH. Pretty much determines how big of an emergency this really is.
Like having an adequate sea wall and not putting the emergency generators in places prone to flooding? A lot went into making that plant fail.
SniperHunter
Banned
hahaha
I've read that it's mostly cesium-137, same stuff that came from the Chernobyl disaster, only here it estimated to be in a much greater quantity. The wiki says it has a half-life of 30.17 years.
I'm skeptical that they could build an adequate seawall for a tsunami like they experienced. That thing was powerful and also quite unexpected. I do agree though, emergency generators might be better placed somewhere high, like on a roof or a greatly elevated position in case of flooding.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
That already exists, the IAEA. Tepco lied and misled since the earthquake hit.
Watch Frontline's doc on it.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/japans-nuclear-meltdown/
Fixed.
Dams kill rivers.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
Yep. Look at the Rio Grande.
most boiling water reactors are built relatively close to... water.
FlashFlooder
Member
Can I get a source for the Cesium claim? I have searched high and low and cannot find any indications as to the type of contamination.
Also, they absolutely could've built an adequate seawall, and actually knowingly went against their design basis recommendations in building the smaller one (some of this was cost savings, a lot of it was pressure from the public that the wall would 'ruin' the view of the ocean).
in addition to these 2 things (which are already in place in the US, and were long before Fukushima), these are the industry-wide upgrades being made in response to Fukushima:
-a boatload of instrumentation for monitoring spent fuel pools
-full deterministic safe shutdown analysis for flood and full station blackout (AKA complete loss of offsite power)
-facilities strategically placed around the country to ensure emergency heavy equipment (generators/transformers/etc.) is available within a reasonable distance from all operating plants
N
NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
'Who does this asshole think he is, agreeing with everything I said?
FlashFlooder
Member
correction: ALL reactors (boiling and pressurized) are built relatively close to water.
I don't like the way TEPCO is handling this, but to be fair this is an insanely challenging problem to tackle. How do you locate, let alone capture, the leaking water when you can't even approach the source of the leak?
Most of the US is not...on the coast. Tsunamis are not common in rivers and lakes.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/05/world/asia/japan-radioactive-water-leak/
rt/news/fukushima-chernobyl-cesium-137-contamination-145/
http://akiomatsumura.com/2012/04/682.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article...lout-nears-chernobyl-levels.html#.UhZIdn-YeVE
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/25/world/asia/japan-fukushima/
(Link error: fixed.)
FlashFlooder
Member
Thanks folks. The cesium and strontium isotopes they mention are basically the ones you don't want to see mentioned.
Why don't they build the reactor over a giant hole? Not like 50 feet, but dig a deep hole as deep as you can feasibly dig it and place the dangerous radioactive parts of the nuclear mechanism over the hole. If a disaster happens and they are having trouble containing the radiation or whatever then maybe they can just dump it all down the hole and that way the radiation and stuff is buried incredibly deep and out of the way and make it safer to clean up the rest of the plant. Dunno what environmental impact this would have but it's gotta be better for us than letting all this stuff leak out onto the surface right? As long as it isn't put directly into an underwater spring or something?
FlashFlooder
Member
Contamination of the water tables is pretty much the worst case scenario, which is precisely what would happen with your solution. Water, no matter where it's deposited, will work its way to the lowest point and mix with anything it comes across in the process.
Also why I was telling all the people calling for them to 'entomb' the site in concrete in the weeks following the incident that it was a bad idea.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Show of hands: Who built 20 nuclear plants right next to each other and summoned a tornado?
Would it be an issue a mile down?
It's almost like you're doing that on porpoise.
FlashFlooder
Member
Don't really know, but the main problem is that if it does become an issue (water starts filling your hole, for example), you're already out of options.
They're talking about doing something similar to remedy this problem, by injecting some type of chemical that hardens (I've seen it referred to as freezing, or a wall of ice) the soil around the site and prevents or slows water leaving the site.
The problem is that water is nearly impossible to contain. It always goes SOMEWHERE.
as a little side fact, it is believed that the reactors at Chernobyl are still molten underneath all the concrete and rubble (not sure when they last checked). It is wreaking absolute havoc on the water tables there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2OKY00fmWY
Everyone with any interest in the nuclear debate should watch this;
Everyone with any interest in the nuclear debate should watch this;
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
This is how human society will end: not nuclear war, just a bunch of nuclear plants going bust.
Not with a bang but with a whimper indeed.
Not with a bang but with a whimper indeed.
Radiation Near Japanese Plants Tanks Suggests New Leaks
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/world/asia/radiation-near-japanese-plants-tanks-suggests-new-leaks.html?_r=0
More at the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/01/world/asia/radiation-near-japanese-plants-tanks-suggests-new-leaks.html?_r=0
More at the link.
MesserWolf
Member
Thanks FlashFlooder for the interesting information you have written in this thread .
regarding the topic ....
the accident, was an accident , however the response to the situation should have been better, better planned, executed and even audited.
Even taking into to account the magnitude of the problem Tepco/Japan is facing.
No money to make anymore, what do you expect?
akachan ningen
Member
super shameful?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This is some dada shit.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
A friend of mine is super biased against anything from the east..
He continues to gloat over how despicable the Japanese government is acting on this, as if it's further proof orientals aren't to be trusted..
I hate his line of thinking, but do keep wondering why they aren't being more open about the problem?
He continues to gloat over how despicable the Japanese government is acting on this, as if it's further proof orientals aren't to be trusted..
I hate his line of thinking, but do keep wondering why they aren't being more open about the problem?
MesserWolf
Member
maybe so, but Japanese authorities should be there to ensure that this does not happen... and that they keep doing what they should and in a proper way.
unbelievable ..... there is no excuse for this level of incompetency and inadequate response.
haha does he actually call them "orientals"?
Japan doesn't like foreign nationals coming in to do any kind of operations. Must be some previous history somewhere...
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Amateur hour doesn't even being to describe it. It feels like some absurdist performance.
fierrotlepou
Member
Sooo, we're just going to sit back and let this happen, won't we?
Fuck this world.
Fuck this world.
O.DOGG
Member
I think it was done on purpose just so they can blame it on incompetency down the line.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
He actually calls them something worse... related to having 'slanted' eyes..
Whenever we argue I'm always the one trying to make him understand the point of view of the Japanese or Chinese (it's usually these countries he has trouble with), but in this case just saying Japan has a valid reason for their ambivalence to western intervention isn't enough.
Lying to this extent about radiation levels affecting toxicity of the ocean means introducing potential unknown risks to foreign countries. Not something I'd expect from a democratic first world country. Then again, it's not like the west has a better track record of telling the truth.
Politics are truly despicable all around..
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
Why does this company still exist? The government should take over, this is not a matter of just cleaning up but a national disaster.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
Just because no one is Rambo-ing up doesn't mean the Japanese govt, the US Govt, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and others are not monitoring and keeping a close eye on it.
The pressure is on the Japanese govt to take over for TEPCO's mismanagement and they're starting to do that
Hell, look at the US and the reaction of Deepwater Horizon Spill and how slow that was and how even now, you have apologists for BP.
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