buckfutter
Member
I'm beginning to think the increased non-reactionary focus of the mainstream media upon gaming isn't such a good thing.
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NYT: A Year of Hype; Some of it Actually Justified
- Thread starter mj1108
- Start date
Beer Monkey
Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Some people expect articles to be 'fair and balanced'. In 2004, Bush supporters complained that there were more postive articles about Kerry and more negative articles about Bush. I guess if Mother Theresa were running for president against Adolph Hitler, the latter should have as many 'positive' articles as the former. :lol
It is inherently 'unfair' to compare a launch system against a 1-year-old system, but readers will expect comparisons regardless. Realistically you have to recommend the 360 to people who want a system to play games, and who want to do it right now.
We'll see how the articles are in a year.
speculawyer said:
exactly, I remember a dormmate of mine picked up a ps2 when it was first released and everyone was excited to play it. SSX was mind-blowing and Madden was a significant upgrade over the 2k series graphically. It really was "next-gen". The current climate of negativity is in no way comparable to what happened in 2000.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
Check out some of the pics in the GT thread.
I'm not bitching that they said that in the article-- just bemoaning the fact that some really great PS3 news has to compete with yet another rehash of the mainstream opinion that we all know about already. I get back on GAF after some GT and a night out and already the news is bad again. :lol
I wouldn't recommend a PS3 with today's library over a 360 and I don't expect the NYT to take the long view of a probable better future for PS3 software support over the 360 (which isn't even a certainty, but how I am betting).
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
So you're not even talking about functionality or even gameplay experience ("check out some of the pics..."). You want the New York Times to take a moment to engage in a screenshot fight.
It could be argued that the reason "some really great PS3 news" is getting lost in a sea of bad news is that you need to deliver on the basics before the little things like particular games can be appreciated. My local Digiplex might have the best sound system, most comfortable seats, and widest screen in town, but if the digital projector wont display the green channel correctly, no one's going to be talking about what a great movie Casino Royale is.
If you catch my meaning.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
I'm not faulting the NYT (or anyone) here. Read my post again. I'm lamenting the state of the PS3 news, but not absolving Sony for the situation. At this point (and well before the launch) the anti-hype was snowballing, and this is just more of it. It's Sony's problem to fix. However, it's too bad that we get iteration #317 of the same story the same day as a demo of a game that's generally regarded to be REALLY REALLY GOOD and would otherwise be major news.
I don't have the agenda you think I do.
Your analogy is full of shit, by the way. There's no problem like that with the PS3-- if anything, it's the little stuff it's getting reamed for most. It plays games just fine.
n/m. I think you're just soapboxing what you think is wrong with the PS3 at this point.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Monk said:
Because I'm killing time while my non-backgrounded downloads go on.
(Yes, I think that's something they should fix.)
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
mj1108 said:
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
I'm not soapboxing at all, dude. As you've seen, my main point is that non of this going to matter in the long run. I'm soapboxing that there's no point in getting worked up over this stuff. You've clearly read my posts. There's no trace at all of me bashing the system. At all. I'm discussing the futility of consistently coming down on mainstream coverage of the PS3 launch.
Re: Agendas. I didn't actually think your agenda was to get the New York Times to look at screenshots of Gran Turismo HD. Yeesh. I don't think you have an agenda at all.
And yeah, the analogy could use some work.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Dear lord this thread is a mess.
krypt0nian
Banned
Dead on - every paragraph. At least from a mainstream audience POV.
Memory refresh anyone?ethelred said:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/0320/japan.sony.htmlTime said:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/25/competitors.ps2/index.htmlCNN said:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,109618-1,00.htmlTime said:
So some people here choose to stand by the 'this is just like last gen' argument? Despite all sorts of differences in the competitive landscape and a significantly discredited Sony strategy post PSP.
riiiight. I saw a black cat when the PS launched, and saw one again when the Wii launch. Wii = PS confirmed?
riiiight. I saw a black cat when the PS launched, and saw one again when the Wii launch. Wii = PS confirmed?
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
Well, peace. I'm not worked up, I'm tired. As you can see, I agree that a PS3 *now* is not the choice to make, unless you're in for the long haul (as the free network and games that aren't out yet, and the as-yet-uncertain BluRay don't come into play in the immediate timeframe).
At this point, I figure PS3 is soon to be offically the underdog and start getting all the passes from the gaming press that Nintendo did for so long.
And my ps1-on-psp download is nearly done so I'll have no more reason to click links liek this for a while.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:Well, peace. I'm not worked up, I'm tired. As you can see, I agree that a PS3 *now* is not the choice to make, unless you're in for the long haul (as the free network and games that aren't out yet, and the as-yet-uncertain BluRay don't come into play in the immediate timeframe).
At this point, I figure PS3 is soon to be offically the underdog and start getting all the passes from the gaming press that Nintendo did for so long.
And my ps1-on-psp download is nearly done so I'll have no more reason to click links liek this for a while.
Total peace. I've got no beef. You've got good taste. Not a lot of people can rock an Ignatz Mouse avatar and pull it off.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
This is serious thread drift, but the PS2 comparisons are neither dead right or wrong. There are some similarities, and some differences. The biggest difference is not in the gaming press (which sounds similar both times) but in the mainstream, where PS2 was the wonderbox supercomputer and the competition barely existed. This time, it's Wii-this and Wii-that.
The PS2 hype in 2000 was insane, especially in the mainstream press. Anyone claiming otherwise is seriously deluding themselve. There is nothing even remotely comparable in the current situation.
You could compare PS3 with the Xbox/Gamecube in 2001 I suppose - except even there the level of skepticism regarding the PS3 is much higher.
You could compare PS3 with the Xbox/Gamecube in 2001 I suppose - except even there the level of skepticism regarding the PS3 is much higher.
What a horrible choice of quotes to try to prove that the PS2 was bashed by the mainstream press as much as the PS3 has been lately.Fafalada said:
The first Time quote was a financial analyst who was actually sort of praising the PS2. He said that Sony was a dinosaur and that the PS2 was a positive step for Sony, but that it might not be a big enough positive to save Sony all by itself.
The CNN quote was from the VP of Sega. Of course the VP of Sega would give a negative quote about the PS2. But CNN wasn't bashing the PS2.
The other Time quote was nothing more than the Oddworld team talking up the XBox, which makes sense since they had just moved their game to the XBox.
You need to try again with some better examples.
Fafalada said:
Er... you're trying to claim that there was mainstream media opposition to the PS2 by showing one article which quotes Sega of America and one which quotes a developer for the Xbox (which, by the way, immediately puts it outside of the PS2 launch, which was the point of this debate)?
Yes, hurrah, you found an article where someone said that the PS2 just does what the Dreamcast does -- and that someone worked for Sega. Wow.
The first article is incredibly positive about the PS2. I guess if you can find a single negative line in an article (which is, again, quoted by someone else and not an opinion of the writer) that makes it equal to a flood of negative mainstream media coverage.
Wow. Just wow.
Rhindle said:
Thank you. Jesus, I remember the media articles back then, and they were incredibly positive. Even the articles Fafalada just posted admit right up front that the hype for the PS2 is incredible.
EDIT:
This is an article that's supposed to prove the mainstream media had it in for Sony during the PS2 launch?
Wow, how vicious they were back then! These guys were out for Sony's blood!
And these are the articles people point to as being negative!
And nary a reference to the Dreamcast to be found...
Amazing. Just look at these nattering nabobs of negativity.
Adam Blade
WWKC
Links backfire total...
MightyHedgehog
Member
_leech_ said:
Hunter D said:
Why does this generation have to run its course like any generation preceding it since every one up to this point has been different anyway? And let's stop bringing up the ****ing DC/PS2 parallels since X360 is in a much different and much better position. Unlike the PS2 situation, the PS3 isn't getting its dick sucked in the mainstream news and gaming media every other day and the system has current and successful competition upon entry into the market. Not to mention the massive price differences involved here between competing systems and the pretty equal third party support for all involved this time.
Aaronology
Member
Adam Blade said:
I was already chuckling when I noticed that myself, but somehow your pointing it out immediately after that post made me burst out laughing. :lol
What an amusing thread. God I love this forum.
GAF delivers once again.
Seriously, though, I agree with the other poster who wanted to know why we must compare this generation to others. This generation differs from all others in that there are 3 potential victors and really, none of us have any idea for sure who will be "victorious," or if there will even be a victor. I for one find that exciting. It will be an intriguing year for sales-age.
Seriously, though, I agree with the other poster who wanted to know why we must compare this generation to others. This generation differs from all others in that there are 3 potential victors and really, none of us have any idea for sure who will be "victorious," or if there will even be a victor. I for one find that exciting. It will be an intriguing year for sales-age.
HomerSimpson-Man said:
Stop looking at consoles sold but at household penetration of consoles. When you factor out population growth (which everyone seems to forget over these thirty years of consoles), the household penetration of consoles is around 33% in America today... the same amount the NES reached.
Most of the 'growth' in the industry has come from multiple console ownership. When people make stupid marketshare pie charts, they don't factor in that *gasp* people might own more than one console which means the wedges are more on top of each other.
Industry growth has been rather stagnant in America for the last couple years. The number of gamers were shrinking in Japan for years until the arrival of the DS.
Striek said:
You sound just like a hardcore computer gamer in 1986 after playing Super Mario Brothers. And, yes, this was said back then. There was lots of hate of the NES back then from some computer gamer geeks. I know because I was one of them.
Wii Sports is not just Game of the Year, it is really Game of the Decade. It is the Pong of our era in that it is the one of the most accessible video games ever made. It has one of the purest game designs around which revolves, of course, around the motion input. No glittering FMVs, no bad dialogue of soap-operas from the characters, none of the garbage that bloats the game from the non-gamer and lapsed gamer viewpoints.
There are many landmarks this game is doing which isn't praised today but will be... soon:
-The definitive game that popularizes motion control.
-The game that popularized real-life influenced avatars (i.e. Miis).
-One of those very few games made that can reach all demographics.
-Bundles with the new Wii consoles which means it is responsible for the hardware sales.
Many people bought NES because of Super Mario Brothers. For Gameboy, people bought it for Tetris. Hardcore gamers need to realize that regular people are not actually looking for a Wii, they are really looking for Wii Sports. They are buying a Wii to get to Wii Sports. (Core gamers, of course, want a Wii for Zelda.)
Most people's perspective on video games begins the day they pick up a controller. For many, it was Super Mario Brothers or Atari. Consider that the new gamers will think back to Wii Sports as being their 'first' game. The future reporters of this industry will consider Wii to be the start of a new timeline, just as today's reporters consider the NES as one or Playstation Generation as the PS1 as one.
You may call it a 'tech-demo'. But so was Pong. So was Super Mario Brothers. So was Tetris. Wii-Sports is in good company. Look at Japan sales where the game is sold seperately to see its huge demand.
Effulgence said:
No. The nerds were with the more hardcore personal computers and many hated the NES at the time. Computers were going 16-bit and the NES was 8-bit and played SIMPLE and CASUAL orientated games. All the hardcore games WITH DEPTH were on computers at the time. The big RPGs and adventure games were on the computers due to their keyboards and disk drives. As the NES grew beyond any analyst's imagination (they thought Nintendo would go third party and put their games on computers since console market was dead), more of the Western 'hardcore' games came to the NES.
Many adults played the NES (just as many adults played the Gameboy). When the kids went to sleep, the adults would play. Many of the games that were popular with adults then, NES's Pinball, Soccer, Tennis, etc. were mocked when hardcore gamers moved to the system. Twenty years later, those same exact games, now on the Virtual Console, are still mocked on GAF and certain short-sighted reporters. "Why are they putting this shovelware on the Virtual Console!? I think the Virtual Console should have nothing but hardcore games and Fire Emblems, LOL!" Consider that games like Pinball, Tennis, etc. are not shovelware to parents of the NES era. I'm amazed so many older adults played Legend of Zelda back then.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Lapsed said:
Your summation reminded me of something. When I was 9 or 10, I remember I used to hang out at my friends house watching his mom play Zelda. In reality, I was more of a friend to his mother than him (yeah, I used him for his NES lol). To this day I remember his mom and I opening Links Adventure and being awed for weeks on end.
It may just be me but I don't see as many adults playing video games anymore. In the 80's almost every household that I knew (with or without children) had some kind of Atari or at least a Sears Breakout machine. They were as common as Trivial Pursuit or Pictionary.
WickedAngel
Banned
_leech_ said:
...or perhaps they simply remember the fact that comparing Microsoft to Sega is asinine. The Dreamcast was in trouble before the Playstation 2 ever came out; Sega's management was terrible, they were bleeding money that they didn't have, and the Playstation 2 was immediately accepted (By critics and consumers alike).
WickedAngel
Banned
*double
WickedAngel
Banned
*triple!
Lapsed said:
Your post is high quality as usual. I wish you would post more.
I wish you would not tempt the usual suspects to make the same argumentation as they could be predicted with near certainty whenever someone mentions Japanese sales of a product that doesn't agree with someone's western consensus opinion on that product.
There's certainly some gamers who finds it necessary to point out how Japan is so different from their perception of reality that the data is somehow irrelevant or less important. It's as if 1 sale in Japan doesn't count as 1 sale on their ledger.
These comments, although never overtly racist, has implied ethnocentric undertones that certain markets are worth more than others, and thus, certain populations and their opinions are worth more by virtue of ethnicity, culture and race.
On the subject of Wii sports, Since it is a pack-in game here in the west, there won't be sales data for wii sports, independent of hardware, to show that western gamers would have purchased the game independently, and Nintendo might very well have reason to doubt this themselves hence the pack-in to guide new owners to the game by default.
That said, when Nintendogs did well in NA and even better in Europe than in Japan, a lot of the initial criticism about it being a Japanese aberration disappeared.
cank stoochie
Banned
i really cant wait for this year to be over.
xaosslug
Member
the thing about threads such as this are: it's the same argument/discussion over and over, to the point were the more "adult" posters avoid it, or sit out on the sidelines and just let the "children" participate. That's why these threads suck. Nothing new's ever learned. It's pretty much the same type of people fixating/arguing on the same subject bringing the same old same old to the table, ad nauseam until the thread's locked and/or a bunch of peeps are bannzord. Though, it is a great way to "clean house" so to speak.
as for my contribution to the discussion:
as for my contribution to the discussion:
Pureauthor
Member
xaosslug said:
Exactly. It's like defecating. It may not look pleasant, but it's necessary for continued function.
CajoleJuice
Member
Lapsed just owned this thread.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
Lapsed said:
wow, awesome post
wii sports is the ONLY game i have seen in memory that has been (willingly) played at my house by most, if not all, of my friends. the only people who haven't played on mine either already own a wii, or are getting one as a christmas present from their wife/gf.
But with a reliable trademark to behind (Microsoft) instead of a company that backstabbed their consumers twice (Mega CD & Mega 32) and while back then the PS2 offered a highly valued non gaming fuctionality (DVD playback) of a stablished format, now we have instead a wildcard (the bluray). History repeat just in people's minds.
And Lapsed is the finests poster that have ever wrote in Neogaf. And without needing to rely on funny photoshops.
I agree Wii Sports has potential to become a huge phenomenon, but right now it's November/December, console launch, lots of hype going around. May be a bit too early to call.
Also, concerning the part about a more diverse group of people (in age for example) playing games during the NES days: are there any numbers available on this, or is it more like anecdotal evidence being thrown around?
Also, concerning the part about a more diverse group of people (in age for example) playing games during the NES days: are there any numbers available on this, or is it more like anecdotal evidence being thrown around?
Haunted
Member
What happened to your tag?Ignatz Mouse said:Because I'm killing time while my non-backgrounded downloads go on.
(Yes, I think that's something they should fix.)
Lapsed: a good read, as always - thanks. Very positive outlook for the Blue Ocean strategy, as usual. We'll see how it turns out in the coming months/years.
I can see where the article comes from and it's really nothing to get worked up about. The praise for Nintendo and Epic is well deserved, the criticism of Sony is their own fault, really. After reading ridiculous PR statement after statement they simply under-delivered and there's nothing Sony fans can say to erase that - just live with it, maybe the tide will turn again in the future, who knows? I doubt that will happen anytime soon, though.
cank stoochie
Banned
um, i dont know about you but i'm enjoying playing motorstorm, gthd demo, just finished resistance, one of the best looking games ever. i downloaded crash bandicoot on my psp and reliving the glorious past, i'm watching some amazing bluray movies on my ps3 and typing this straight from my ps3 on my glorious 40 inch 1080p bravia. plus some amazing games coming by the end of next year.Haunted_One said:What happened to your tag?
Lapsed: a good read, as always - thanks. Very positive outlook for the Blue Ocean strategy, as usual. We'll see how it turns out in the coming months/years.
I can see where the article comes from and it's really nothing to get worked up about. The praise for Nintendo and Epic is well deserved, the criticism of Sony is their own fault, really. After reading ridiculous PR statement after statement they simply under-delivered and there's nothing Sony fans can say to erase that - just live with it, maybe the tide will turn again in the future, who knows? I doubt that will happen anytime soon, though.
so no, i dont agree with your assesment of sony underdelivering, in fact its the opposite. i couldnt be happier with my ps3 and i really dont need any other console thank you very much.
Lapsed said:You sound just like a hardcore computer gamer in 1986 after playing Super Mario Brothers. And, yes, this was said back then. There was lots of hate of the NES back then from some computer gamer geeks. I know because I was one of them.
Wii Sports is not just Game of the Year, it is really Game of the Decade. It is the Pong of our era in that it is the one of the most accessible video games ever made. It has one of the purest game designs around which revolves, of course, around the motion input. No glittering FMVs, no bad dialogue of soap-operas from the characters, none of the garbage that bloats the game from the non-gamer and lapsed gamer viewpoints.
There are many landmarks this game is doing which isn't praised today but will be... soon:
-The definitive game that popularizes motion control.
-The game that popularized real-life influenced avatars (i.e. Miis).
-One of those very few games made that can reach all demographics.
-Bundles with the new Wii consoles which means it is responsible for the hardware sales.
Many people bought NES because of Super Mario Brothers. For Gameboy, people bought it for Tetris. Hardcore gamers need to realize that regular people are not actually looking for a Wii, they are really looking for Wii Sports. They are buying a Wii to get to Wii Sports. (Core gamers, of course, want a Wii for Zelda.)
Most people's perspective on video games begins the day they pick up a controller. For many, it was Super Mario Brothers or Atari. Consider that the new gamers will think back to Wii Sports as being their 'first' game. The future reporters of this industry will consider Wii to be the start of a new timeline, just as today's reporters consider the NES as one or Playstation Generation as the PS1 as one.
You may call it a 'tech-demo'. But so was Pong. So was Super Mario Brothers. So was Tetris. Wii-Sports is in good company. Look at Japan sales where the game is sold seperately to see its huge demand.
There's a problem with your posts - and most of those patting you on the back and fellating themselves for the new pinnacle of gaming everywhere - and that's this implication that people who aren't fans of Wii Sports are simply afraid of change, that they're the same types of people that will be left behind like those who didn't enjoy SMB or Tetris. The problem with your argument, and again the argument of all who try to parade this perspective, is that in the cases of SMB and Tetris there was no regression. It was, by any standard, and evolution of everything in games AT THE TIME. Regardless of what the argument was from the geeks at the time, You can't claim it was a simplication, SMB was amazingly deep compared to other titles at the time. Tetris could conceivably go on forever, if you're fast enough and talented enough to keep playing. It's a game of hardline skill. It's simple, but only before you consider the complexity came in the actual fitting of the blocks together at progressively higher speeds. It's a hardcores game, just as it is a casuals.
Wii Sports, even if you consider some parts are new standard, is a regression in so, so many areas. Being accessible is all good and well - but when you do that at the expense of many critical elements of gameplay, you regress. Wii Sports is a regression in visuals, it's a regression in depth, it's a regression in gameplay. The only part that isn't is the fact that you can stand up and pathetically mime real-life sports activities with motion. That this is its sole selling point says enough to its gimmickry, regardless of it catches on or not, but it's obvious. In Tennis, you can't move your character. In baseball, all fielding is done for you.
In bowling, there are dozens of different ways to just plain out abuse the system and break it due to limitations of the Wiimote motion. My sister, who doesn't follow game news at all, almost always gets strikes and that's by launching the ball all wrong (she releases it when here swing is all at the top which sort of plops the ball on the lane like a loose turd). She beats those who bowl correctly (like my Dad), even though that defeats the purpose of the motion controls in the first place. It REMOVES elements of gameplay and simplifies it. And how? By holding your hand as if you're a ****ing retard. And perhaps that is how some people enjoy gaming. Boxing is a complete mess, sensing punches half the time and the other half ignoring entirely the position of the wiimote. If you punch too fast, uh-oh the game stops sensing your punches. Punch Out was more fun, AND deeper.
All this before you factor in the lack of modes and other features.
But it is not the same as SMB. It is NOT the same as Tetris. These were, by any standards, staples that enhanced gaming in every way and regressed in none. Wii Sports is precisely the opposite. It's gaming that regresses gameplay in almost all ways. It is nice that in real life you can point your bat in a specific way and hit it to the stands. That's nice, if you needed that I could reccomend any number of plug n play games that do the exact same thing. But the fact that in order to do this, it needs to essentially rape all the important elements of the game which are ****ing essential to the actual sports is no compliment.
It's nice that Grandma can play, but she still don't know shit about games. And this one sucks. And just the fact that she CAN play now is not some positive for the game.