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[lupinko]

Marco Rubio is sad

So is Jeb!

 

[Skellig Gra]

But what about his hair piece?

 

[lupinko]

But what about his hair piece?

Unfortunately, the Donald's hair is actually real, it's just the most elaborate combover ever.

 

[rambis]

No True Scotsman fallacy. "Christian" is not a synonym for "good person". It's an arrogant, facile assumption that bad acts make someone un-Christian. If they proclaim to believe in and follow Jesus, that's it - they're Christian. Debate the level of honest adherence all you want, that's fair. But you don't get to say only good people can be Christian.

Hell, the pope's own bigoted homophobia doesn't mean he's not a Christian, for example.

No, you just don't understand Catholicism. The pope is the top teacher in the Catholic church. If he tells you you're being unchristian then youre being uncristian.

And honestly I don't see where the argument is. Trump is a racist greedy jackass that spews hateful rhetoric about as much as much as he can. You dont think the bible speaks on greed? Or prejudice?

 

[antonz]

No, you just don't understand Catholicism. The pope is the top teacher in the Catholic church. If he tells you you're being un-christian then youre being uncristian.

And honestly I don't see where the argument is. Trump is a racist greedy jackass that spews hateful rhetoric about as much as much as he can. You dont think the bible speaks on greed? Or prejudice?

The Pope obviously pushed the right buttons today. I mean shitheels like Hannity who claims to be a devout Catholic went on the full attack against the Pope on how he has no right to judge anyone etc. Then of course made sure to bring on a bunch of Prosperity Gospel Evangelicals to attack the Pope further.

and while the Pope obviously opposes 200 ft. walls across borders etc. he was also speaking metaphorically. Calling All Mexicans rapist and murderers etc. is putting up walls and not building bridges between people and that kind of disgusting behavior would in fact be very unchristlike

 

[Dice]

No True Scotsman fallacy. "Christian" is not a synonym for "good person". It's an arrogant, facile assumption that bad acts make someone un-Christian. If they proclaim to believe in and follow Jesus, that's it - they're Christian. Debate the level of honest adherence all you want, that's fair. But you don't get to say only good people can be Christian.

1 John 3:4-10
"Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters."

John the Apostle dun fucked up.

 

[massoluk]

Sigh, how long must I endure this election and this person who I can't unfriend for family reason.

 

[Link]

Sigh, how long must I endure this election and this person who I can't unfriend for family reason.

Can't you just filter them from your feed?

 

[EatinOlives]

Sigh, how long must I endure this election and this person who I can't unfriend for family reason.

You can "unfollow" them so their posts don't show up in your feed.

 

[massoluk]

Can't you just filter them from your feed?

You can "unfollow" them so their posts don't show up in your feed.

Can't, important message can get lost if I don't follow, 10 more months to go, May the gods have mercy on my soul.

 

[Link]

Can't, important message can get lost if I don't follow, 10 more months to go, May the gods have mercy on my soul.

It's your sanity. Though I think it's funny you think this will just end after the election.

 

[Alienfan]

To be honest, I would rather have Donald Trump running my country than the Pope.

 

[legend166]

Two doofuses arguing over something neither of them know about.

And before anyone gets in their high horse, official Catholic doctrine for the last 500 years has been that Protestants are cursed for rejecting the Roman Catholic Church teaching, so let's not get uppity about what Protestants think of Catholics.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Two doofuses arguing over something neither of them know about.

And before anyone gets in their high horse, official Catholic doctrine for the last 500 years has been that Protestants are cursed for rejecting the Roman Catholic Church teaching, so let's not get uppity about what Protestants think of Catholics.

Where did you get this and why didn't they ever teach you about Vatican II? Read Lumen Gentium. Not only can Protestants go to heaven under Catholic belief, non-christians can too.

Francis even went as far to say that Athiests can reach heaven as well.

 

[Lonely1]

The official doctrine is that only god gets to decide who goes to heaven.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

No, you just don't understand Catholicism. The pope is the top teacher in the Catholic church. If he tells you you're being unchristian then youre being uncristian.

And honestly I don't see where the argument is. Trump is a racist greedy jackass that spews hateful rhetoric about as much as much as he can. You dont think the bible speaks on greed? Or prejudice?

No, you're incorrect. My point is clear.
Catholicism s not the only flavor of Christianity, not by a long shot, and the pope is not the arbiter of who and who isn't Christian, especially outside his church. Your closing paragraph illustrates exactly the fallacy I've described.

 

[Cerium]

No, you're incorrect. My point is clear.

He's not wrong. In Catholicism the Pope is literally the voice of God on earth.

The voice of God.

You're describing a Baptist interpretation of Christianity.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

He's not wrong. In Catholicism the Pope is literally the voice of God on earth.

The voice of God.

You're describing a Baptist interpretation of Christianity.

Sorry, when did Trump claim to be Catholic exactly?

 

[Lonely1]

No, you're incorrect. My point is clear.
Catholicism s not the only flavor of Christianity, not by a long shot, and the pope is not the arbiter of who and who isn't Christian, especially outside his church. Your closing paragraph illustrates exactly the fallacy I've described.

The catholic church has excommunication from the church.

Sorry, when did Trump claim to be Catholic exactly?

The Catholic church claims to be only valid brand of Christianity.

 

[Palette Swap]

No, you're incorrect. My point is clear.
Catholicism s not the only flavor of Christianity, not by a long shot, and the pope is not the arbiter of who and who isn't Christian, especially outside his church. Your closing paragraph illustrates exactly the fallacy I've described.

Yeah, I agree with this, and your initial post.
At best, he can say Trump is not a Catholic, that's the pope's prerogative, except Trump has never pretended to be. I guess he really means something like "he's not acting like a Christian should", but his own formulation makes him speak out of turn, pope or not.

Hell, for the sake of the argument, if she wanted to be a contrarian, Elizabeth II could just as well have said "no, he's a Christian", as she's also a Christian leader.

Edit: yeah, I guess there's an argument to be made that when the pope says "Christian", it's implicitly "Catholic", except he's gone out of his way time and again to look Ecumenical, so that doesn't really work.

 

[Lonely1]

Edit: yeah, I guess there's an argument to be made that when the pope says "Christian", it's implicitly "Catholic", except he's gone out of his way time and again to look Ecumenical, so that doesn't really work.

All this means is that the pope is accepting that non-catholic people can be good people (or Christian-like), but certainly not everyone who claims themselves to be Christians.

This whole argument is a straw man created to fulfil a supposed not true Scotsman...

 

[Chmpocalypse]

All this means is that the pope is accepting that non-catholic people can be good people (or Christian-like), but certainly not everyone who claims themselves to be Christians.

This whole argument is a straw man created to fulfil a supposed not true Scotsman...

There's nothing "supposed" about it. The pope is demonstrating the fallacy as it's defined. That's also not a strawman.

Trust me, I fucking hate trump. But I also despise special pleading and exclusion of unpleasant facts (sorry, bad people can be and many times are Christian) to bolster the false notion that one can only be Christian if they're a good person (as defined, conveniently, by the person attempting to make such a false distinction).

 

[Dice]

This whole argument is a straw man created to fulfil a supposed not true Scotsman...

Jesus wasn't exactly opposed to the notion of true and untrue.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples approached him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let anyone with ears listen!

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’ Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There are many more examples. As much as modern evangelicalism has tried to twist the reformers doctrine of sola fide to be this mere mental ascent being a guarantee, Jesus teaches very clearly that if you ain't legit, you ain't it. It isn't scandalous for the Pope, head of the church preceding and resisting the protestant reformation, to be teaching this way.

 

[rambis]

No, you're incorrect. My point is clear.
Catholicism s not the only flavor of Christianity, not by a long shot, and the pope is not the arbiter of who and who isn't Christian, especially outside his church. Your closing paragraph illustrates exactly the fallacy I've described.

Lol "no you". How am I incorrect?

Trump regularly violates major covenants of the bible, which are largely the same no matter which "flavor" you are.Thats not Christian. Im sure most reverends would agree. So again, how am I wrong exactly?

Its not a fallacy. Its you failing to understand one of the oldest standing system of government that exist in this world. You dont get to decide how religions work just because you may not believe in them.

There's nothing "supposed" about it. The pope is demonstrating the fallacy as it's defined. That's also not a strawman.

Trust me, I fucking hate trump. But I also despise special pleading and exclusion of unpleasant facts (sorry, bad people can be and many times are Christian) to bolster the false notion that one can only be Christian if they're a good person (as defined, conveniently, by the person attempting to make such a false distinction).

Your posts reek of someone who dont understand the role of the reverend or teacher in the Christian church.

 

[thefro]

I think you actually have to look at the context of the question and the full answer and not just a sound-byte to get what the Pope actually said.

Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?

Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously saying "lol Vatican City walls!" or "Pope is making a no true Scotsman!" argument are both dumb arguments.

 

[pantsmith]

The Catholic church claims to be only valid brand of Christianity.

Just a quick correction, though they believe themselves to be the only correct interpretation, they generally accept Orthodox Christians as being on equal spiritual footing. An Orthodox Christian can receive communion in a Catholic service (though they really won't, if they care that much).

 

[Valhelm]

To be honest, I would rather have Donald Trump running my country than the Pope.

Why?

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Lol "no you". How am I incorrect?

Trump regularly violates major covenants of the bible, which are largely the same no matter which "flavor" you are.Thats not Christian. Im sure most reverends would agree. So again, how am I wrong exactly?

Its not a fallacy. Its you failing to understand one of the oldest standing system of government that exist in this world. You dont get to decide how religions work just because you may not believe in them.



Your posts reek of someone who dont understand the role of the reverend or teacher in the Christian church.

This is just more special pleading on your part, and shows me you don't actually understand the fallacy being discussed.

 

[the-pi-guy]

Another reason for me to like the pope.

I wish it would affect his presidency, but it probably won't.

 

[rambis]

This is just more special pleading on your part, and shows me you don't actually understand the fallacy being discussed.

No, I understand the Scotsman fallacy very clearly. You cant seem to understand the doctorine that churches are structured by and the roles of the members of a church and why a teacher of a church has authority to judge essentially if a person is acting christian or not.

Again, you cannot change centuries of established protocol and practice because you don't agree with them.

 

[Dice]

No, I understand the Scotsman fallacy very clearly. You cant seem to understand the doctorine that churches are structured by and the roles of the members of a church and why a teacher of a church has authority to judge essentially if a person is acting christian or not.

It seems he believes that it is a matter of personal identification with a title. If a person does not agree with the church, or even Christ himself, on what it means to be a Christian, I'm pretty sure it is safe to say they are just taking their own convictions and calling it Christian. If such is all the more anyone can do, then Christianity is nothing more than a title. However, if it is a religion, then it can indeed have defined qualifications for true and untrue members, which would be defined by the founders and whoever they named as their authoritative successors. This makes many antinomians very uncomfortable in realizing their gnostic heresy (which happens to be the oldest Christian heresy) so they'll fight it tooth and nail, but if something is an actual platform, it has structure. If there is an actual thing to believe in at all, it is defined somehow, which means there is a way to fall outside of that definition.

 

[Spizz]

Let them fight, or something.

I think Wrestlemania is soon now that you mention it...

 

[Chmpocalypse]

No, I understand the Scotsman fallacy very clearly. You cant seem to understand the doctorine that churches are structured by and the roles of the members of a church and why a teacher of a church has authority to judge essentially if a person is acting christian or not.

Again, you cannot change centuries of established protocol and practice because you don't agree with them.

You clearly don't, given that the pope is not the controlling voice of all Christianity.

 

[rambis]

It seems he believes that it is a matter of personal identification with a title. If a person does not agree with the church, or even Christ himself, on what it means to be a Christian, I'm pretty sure it is safe to say they are just taking their own convictions and calling it Christian. If such is all the more anyone can do, then Christianity is nothing more than a title. However, if it is a religion, then it can indeed have defined qualifications for true and untrue members, which would be defined by the founders and whoever they named as their authoritative successors. This makes many antinomians very uncomfortable in realizing their gnostic heresy (which happens to be the oldest Christian heresy) so they'll fight it tooth and nail, but if something is an actual platform, it has structure. If there is an actual thing to believe in at all, it is defined somehow, which means there is a way to fall outside of that definition.

Only way his posts make any sense really as someone who has grown up Baptist. Saying that the Bible's chosen authorities have no say in the guidance of a congregation and there actions is lunacy.

Nobody cares about the title of Christian. Anybody can call themselves Christian or whatever else they want to call themselves. That's inconsequential really. Its the fact that you are not living in accordance with Christian doctorine that matters. And a pope or any teacher in the biblical context has authority to call out uncristian behavior snd guide a servant as John would say. To say they don't shows a huge misunderstanding.

 

[CrisKre]

The New Yorker has proofreaded Trump's statement:



http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/copy-editing-trump

This is absolutely amazing and terrifying at the same time.

 

[Northeastmonk]

There's a separation of church and state. I don't see why it's so important. Shouldn't the government function without all the drama coming from religious sectors?

 

[Aureon]

The Pope obviously pushed the right buttons today. I mean shitheels like Hannity who claims to be a devout Catholic went on the full attack against the Pope on how he has no right to judge anyone etc. Then of course made sure to bring on a bunch of Prosperity Gospel Evangelicals to attack the Pope further.

and while the Pope obviously opposes 200 ft. walls across borders etc. he was also speaking metaphorically. Calling All Mexicans rapist and murderers etc. is putting up walls and not building bridges between people and that kind of disgusting behavior would in fact be very unchristlike

That's the public perspective.
However, the Catholic Church is an organization, one from which the Pope has the right to kick you from.
Which he did.
Trump was excommunicated in the summer of '15.
As far as any catholic who actually follows the doctrine s/he claims to follow, Trump is not a christian.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Only way his posts make any sense really as someone who has grown up Baptist. Saying that the Bible's chosen authorities have no say in the guidance of a congregation and there actions is lunacy.

Nobody cares about the title of Christian. Anybody can call themselves Christian or whatever else they want to call themselves. That's inconsequential really. Its the fact that you are not living in accordance with Christian doctorine that matters. And a pope or any teacher in the biblical context has authority to call out uncristian behavior snd guide a servant as John would say. To say they don't shows a huge misunderstanding.

The huge misunderstanding is your conclusion that the pope can decide who is and isn't a Christian outside of Catholicism. He can say they aren't in his opinion, but he has no more authority to call a Protestant "not a real Christian" (thus demonstrating the NTS fallacy) than Fred Phelps has calling Catholics fake Christians. He only speaks for his own 'wing' of Christianity, not all of it.

And believe me, definitely not raised religious, lol.

 

[Principate]

The huge misunderstanding is your conclusion that the pope can decide who is and isn't a Christian outside of Catholicism. He can say they aren't in his opinion, but he has no more authority to call a Protestant "not a real Christian" (thus demonstrating the NTS fallacy) than Fred Phelps has calling Catholics fake Christians. He only speaks for his own 'wing' of Christianity, not all of it.

And believe me, definitely not raised religious, lol.

He can decide as much as any other Christian can according to the Bible. It's not against Bible doctrine to question someones faith, in fact the opposite is true. Paul does similar actions a number of times in in his letters to various Church's and Jesus even mentions such fake believers. This is not some new ground but well established within New testament doctrine.

 

[rambis]

The huge misunderstanding is your conclusion that the pope can decide who is and isn't a Christian outside of Catholicism. He can say they aren't in his opinion, but he has no more authority to call a Protestant "not a real Christian" (thus demonstrating the NTS fallacy) than Fred Phelps has calling Catholics fake Christians. He only speaks for his own 'wing' of Christianity, not all of it.

And believe me, definitely not raised religious, lol.

This is obvious and why im not really entertaining your arguments. You don't even seem to understand what the pope is saying, let alone any relevant scripture on the matter.

He can decide as much as any other Christian can according to the Bible. It's not against Bible doctrine to question someones faith, in fact the opposite is true. Paul does similar actions a number of times in in his letters to various Church's and Jesus even mentions such fake believers. This is not some new ground but well established within New testament doctrine.

I wouldn't waste your time man.

 

[Lead]

Pretty sure if Trump is Christian at all it's a lot more likely that he's a protestant, so I'm not sure why he'd care, or why the pope would care?

 

[Principate]

Pretty sure if Trump is Christian at all it's a lot more likely that he's a protestant, so I'm not sure why he'd care, or why the pope would care?

That's even worse, as a self proclaimed protestant, he should be able to use bible quotes to back his beliefs, he never does that, in fact he's said he ignores what the Bible says and in situations and bases it on what thinks is right.

The guy is so blatantly not a Christian, I'm wondering why it took someone so long to point it out. The guy even stated he has never sought forgiveness. You know the sole defining thing the bible states makes someone a Christian or not.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Captain Obvious strikes again.

Listen, Pope, you need not weigh in on these things unless you really have something original and worthwhile to say.

 

[Principate]

Captain Obvious strikes again.

Listen, Pope, you need not weigh in on these things unless you really have something original and worthwhile to say.

The fact this i a debate should say it all though.

 

[rambis]

Pretty sure if Trump is Christian at all it's a lot more likely that he's a protestant, so I'm not sure why he'd care, or why the pope would care?

You really don't? The answers to these questions are almost selfevident. Trump cares that the Pope, one of the most influential person's in the world is questioning his religion, who of the most important demographics in American politics.

The Pope, fresh off a trip from a hugely suffering Mexico is speaking out against Trump for trying so hard to close them off and turn people against them.

 

[Lead]

You really don't? The answers to these questions are almost selfevident. Trump cares that the Pope, one of the most influential person's in the world is questioning his religion, who of the most important demographics in American politics.

The Pope, fresh off a trip from a hugely suffering Mexico is speaking out against Trump for trying so hard to close them off and turn people against them.

Pretty sure the vast majority of catholics in the U.S. are from latin america and Portuguese and Spanish immigrants.

And since Trump already made sure none of these people are ever going to vote for him, I'm not sure how it matters.

 

[Principate]

Pretty sure the vast majority of catholics in the U.S. are from latin america and Portuguese and Spanish immigrants.

And since Trump already made sure none of these people are ever going to vote for him, I'm not sure how it matters.

There's still that stat about catholic candidates being the most likely for Americans to vote (with atheists and socialists at the bottom), so it does care some weight either way.

 

[rambis]

Pretty sure the vast majority of catholics in the U.S. are from latin america and Portuguese and Spanish immigrants.

And since Trump already made sure none of these people are ever going to vote for him, I'm not sure how it matters.

As someone said earlier in this thread this is incredibly myopic. The race isn't just the primary where your base can get you a nod. You have win the general election as well. You saw how thinking you can just publicly ignore large swathes of voters because "they weren't gonna vote for him anyway" worked for Romney.

Also

http://m.livescience.com/52236-who-are-american-catholics.html

Catholics make up one of the largest voting demographics in the country. There is quite a large chunk of of older voters who are Catholic, and no they are not mostly hispanic.

 

[Sickboy007]

Pretty sure the vast majority of catholics in the U.S. are from latin america and Portuguese and Spanish immigrants.

And since Trump already made sure none of these people are ever going to vote for him, I'm not sure how it matters.

Nope, the majority of American Catholics are non-hispanic whites.

 

[Link]

There's a separation of church and state. I don't see why it's so important. Shouldn't the government function without all the drama coming from religious sectors?

Would be nice, right?