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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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Frank the Great said:
OWS should really focus on campaign finance reform as the one issue to rally behind. get money out of politics, end institutionalized corruption. this is something most regular folk agree with.


Agreed. I think it's the one political cause both conservative and liberal Americans can get behind. Get politicians in who support the people who elect them rather than the interests that support their campaign.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Fenderputty said:
Agreed. I think it's the one political cause both conservative and liberal Americans can get behind. Get politicians in who support the people who elect them rather than the interests that support their campaign.
You know, you'd think so, but libertarians really love their constitution so I wouldn't bank on it.
 

magicstop

Member
Fenderputty said:
Agreed. I think it's the one political cause both conservative and liberal Americans can get behind. Get politicians in who support the people who elect them rather than the interests that support their campaign.

Those don't exist. They can't exist. Money is access to resource and is power, and there's no way to change that without changing more fundamental parts of the system. Even with new regulations on campaign financing, etc., politicians will remain beholden to those that line their pockets. Money moves our capitalist world, and corporations have the majority of it spoken for.
 

Chichikov

Member
Zabka said:
It's not that simple. Many large corporations lobby for regulations to negatively affect competition. Recently UPS has been lobbying for FedEx to be reclassified so its employees can unionize.
That doesn't seem like people are protesting against.
But I may be wrong.

Karma Kramer said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWs6g3L3fkU

This movement needs to be more about campaign reform and opening up a new dialogue that embraces our differences so we can function better as a democracy.
As I said in this very thread, I will march with everyone who support meaningful campaign reform.
I think it's a perquisite to any meaningful change in our political system.
Also, I didn't mean to ridicule anyone, it just seem that the Tea Party offer completely different solution to the problem we're in.
It's fine to have differing opinions, but it's hard to have a common movement if you're driving toward opposite goals.

I mean, would the Tea Party support public finance? stronger FEC?


timetokill said:
I think the movement is calling for more than just those things. And like any movement, if the general premise is there, you go with it. Kind of like Obama voters -- I'm sure you didn't all vote for him because he was going to support the Patriot Act.

That said, I don't think that taxing the 1% higher necessarily means "Bigger government."

In general, I think the solution has to be weakening both the government and the corporations at the same time. Right now there are a lot of government practices that makes big business a lot more powerful than it would be otherwise. The stuff that protects Big Pharma, the insane corn subsidies, etc. are government policies that give the corporations free reign to fuck the common man.

I guess all I'm saying is that there is a generally common goal, and some common means. Disagreements on a few issues and isolating those groups goes against the whole "we are the 99%" concept.
That's not how I read the movement, but it based on just the times I've been there and the people I've talked to.
I think that the majority of the OWS wants solutions that will be completely unacceptable to libertarians or tea party people.
That being said, I'm all for finding common ground where possible.
 
BobsRevenge said:
You know, you'd think so, but libertarians really love their constitution so I wouldn't bank on it.


I think that's a pretty small portion of the American population though. I think your average repub and dem would agree it's an area that needs change. It's something that would make each of their voting experiences more meaningful.

We might even be able to get some serious discourse going on.
 

Myansie

Member
ToxicAdam said:
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That middle ground is absoulutely what the protests need to be about. The banks have too much power and are increasingly deregulating to allow themselves to take even more money. They've reached the point where they are part of the government and the judiciary. The peoples voting power has been eroded to a public relations farce. When both presidential candidates receive the majority of their funding from the 5 major banks there's a problem. You need a billion dollars to run a presidential campaign. When Obama got in office, he owed big time which is why he had to instate members of the banking community into his cabinet. Whereby continuing the banks position where they can write their own rules. With the GFC they've proven morality is not in their interest, it's all about funnelling as much money unto themselves as possible. It's the nature of the beast.

The rules need to be readjusted because the free market only works if there is a diversity within the economy. If all the money is in the hands of a few, a concentration of power, then the engine stops.

Currently what happens is the banks create financial bubbles. They invest all their money and encourage everybody else to do the same to artificially inflate a specific market. The sub-prime mortgage and dot com bubbles are both examples. Not only do you get the effect of the bubble bursting, but while the bubble is growing you're diverting money and resources away from other industries. What if Steve Jobs couldn't have gotten the capital to fund the iPod? This is the situation our current economic ruleset is creating.
 
I'm really excited! I'm going to Occupy Philadelphia with some people from a club from my university that focuses on political activism. I'm really, really excited.

We are going to be bringing items for them and our voices. Should be a great time.
 

Zabka

Member
Chichikov said:
That doesn't seem like people are protesting against.
But I may be wrong.
What's that got to do with my comment or your statement?

Besides, it's another facet of the exact issue these people are protesting against: corporate manipulation of government to game the economic system.
 

magicstop

Member
PS3GamerKyle said:
I'm really excited! I'm going to Occupy Philadelphia with some people from a club from my university that focuses on political activism. I'm really, really excited.

We are going to be bringing items for them and our voices. Should be a great time.

Excellent! Be sure to take some pics and tell us how it goes. I'm going to be adding some audio and more pictures from Occupy Chapel Hill and Occupy Durham tomorrow. This weekend is going to be a big one. Protests and occupations around the world are starting up on Oct. 15, including Chapel Hill's occupation. I'm hoping that first night goes well. I'm planning on camping out, for sure.
 
magicstop said:
Excellent! Be sure to take some pics and tell us how it goes. I'm going to be adding some audio and more pictures from Occupy Chapel Hill and Occupy Durham tomorrow. This weekend is going to be a big one. Protests and occupations around the world are starting up on Oct. 15, including Chapel Hill's occupation. I'm hoping that first night goes well. I'm planning on camping out, for sure.

Whoops, forgot to mention that we are going out on Saturday. Should add an extra layer of excitement, seeing how so many events worldwide are scheduled for that day.
 
So the Occupy DC rally in solidarity with the SEIU for their contract negotiations was kind of dampened by the rain today... It was in Farragut Square, and it was mostly SEIU people and not as many Occupy DC people. I took some pictures as I walked by, which I might post later.

timetokill said:
Exactly why I laugh at people who are saying "kick the libertarians out of Occupy!"
When I say to kick the libertarians out of Occupy, I'm talking only about the people on the right of the diagram who are only saying "the government has too much power." The people in the middle are fine and can stay.
 
Just got back from the Occupy Walnut Creek here in the East Bay. A lot more people that I thought, over a 100 at a time with more than that filtering in and out. I didn't bring any signs or bullhorns or anything like that. I just brought 9 cases of waters and ended up passing them out for 3 hours. It was a hot day and I didn't want anybody getting dehydrated. Got interviewed by a local blog and a newspaper for my water boy efforts.

Felt good to help out and I wish there were more people there. Maybe I will see myself on the news tonight lol. Just a couple pics I snapped in between running back and forth to my car to grab more waters. Not the best, but at least it shows some of the people there. Hard to take any good ones when you arms are filled with cases of water lol. I plan on going back next week at the same time to do the same thing. Oh yeah, The total water count I passed out was 161 bottles. I still had 3 more cases left in the car. Feels good man.

My favorite part was when some girl crossing the street shouted at us, "You are in the wrong city! You should all be in Washington D.C.!" Lol, if we could afford to be I am sure we would.

Bi9s2.jpg


qFOri.jpg
 

Jak140

Member
A large part of why OWS came into being is because the game is rigged and both parties are bought out. This article expounds upon why the Democrats need to be held responsible too:
Can OWS be turned into a Democratic Party movement?
BY GLENN GREENWALD

When I first wrote in defense of the Occupy Wall Street protests a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that much of the scorn then being expressed by many progressives was “grounded in the belief that the only valid form of political activism is support for Democratic Party candidates.” Since then, even the most establishment Democrats have fundamentally changed how they talk about the protests — from condescension and hostility to respect and even support — and The New York Times today makes clear one significant factor accounting for this change:

Leading Democratic figures, including party fund-raisers and a top ally of President Obama, are embracing the spread of the anti-Wall Street protests in a clear sign that members of the Democratic establishment see the movement as a way to align disenchanted Americans with their party.

The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the party’s powerful House fund-raising arm, is circulating a petition seeking 100,000 party supporters to declare that “I stand with the Occupy Wall Street protests.”

The Center for American Progress, a liberal organization run by John D. Podesta, who helped lead Mr. Obama’s 2008 transition, credits the protests with tapping into pent-up anger over a political system that it says rewards the rich over the working class — a populist theme now being emphasized by the White House and the party. The center has encouraged and sought to help coordinate protests in different cities.

Judd Legum, a spokesman for the center, said that its direct contacts with the protests have been limited, but that “we’ve definitely been publicizing it and supporting it.”

He said Democrats are already looking for ways to mobilize protesters in get-out-the-vote drives for 2012.

Politico similarly noted today that “the White House wants to make it clear that President Barack Obama is on the same side as the Occupy Wall Street protesters.”

Can that scheme work? Can the Occupy Wall Street protests be transformed into a get-out-the-vote organ of Obama 2012 and the Democratic Party? To determine if this is likely, let’s review a few relevant facts.

In March, 2008, The Los Angeles Times published an article with the headline “Democrats are darlings of Wall St“, which reported that both Obama and Clinton “are benefiting handsomely from Wall Street donations, easily surpassing Republican John McCain in campaign contributions.” In June, 2008, Reuters published an article entitled “Wall Street puts its money behind Obama”; it detailed that Obama had almost twice as much in contributions from “the securities and investment industry” and that “Democrats garnered 57 percent of the contributions from” that industry. When the financial collapse exploded, then-candidate Obama became an outspoken supporter of the Wall Street bailout.

After Obama’s election, the Democratic Party controlled the White House, the Senate and the House for the first two years, and the White House and Senate for the ten months after that. During this time, unemployment and home foreclosures were painfully high, while Wall Street and corporate profits exploded, along with income inequality. In July, 2009, The New York Times dubbed JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon “Obama’s favorite banker” because of his close relationship with, and heavy influence on, leading Democrats, including the President. In February, 2010, President Obama defended Dimon’s $17 million bonus and the $9 million bonus to Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein — both of whose firms received substantial taxpayer bailouts — as fair and reasonable.

The key Senate fundraiser for the Party is Chuck Schumer, whom the New York Times profiled — in an article headlined “Champion of Wall Street Reaps the Benefits” — as someone who repeatedly supported “measures now blamed for contributing to the financial crisis” and who “took other steps to protect industry players from government oversight and tougher rules” and thus “became a magnet for campaign donations from wealthy industry executives, including Jamie Dimon, now the chief executive of JPMorgan Chase; John J. Mack, the chief executive at Morgan Stanley; and Charles O. Prince III, the former chief executive of Citigroup.” That servitude to Wall Street is what consolidated Schumer’s power in the Party:

As a result, [Schumer] has collected over his career more in campaign contributions from the securities and investment industry than any of his peers in Congress, with the exception of Senator John F. Kerry of Massachusetts . . . In the last two-year election cycle, he helped raise more than $120 million for the Democrats’ Senate campaign committee, drawing nearly four times as much money from Wall Street as the National Republican Senatorial Committee. Donors often mention his “pro-business message” and record of addressing their concerns.

Upon being inaugurated, Obama empowered as his top economic adviser Larry Summers, who had “collected roughly $5.2 million in compensation from hedge fund D.E. Shaw over the [prior] year and was paid more than $2.7 million in speaking fees by several troubled Wall Street firms and other organizations,” including a fee of $135,000 for a single day of speaking at Goldman, Sachs, and who also led the orgy of Wall Street deregulation in the 1990s. Obama installed as Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, whom the New York Times explained had “forged unusually close relationships with executives of Wall Street’s giant financial institutions.”

When Obama chose him, Geithner had just participated in a secret meeting along with Bush Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein, at which it was decided that a bankrupt AIG would be saved and then — with taxpayer money — would pay Goldman every penny owed to it. Summers, in February, 2009, defended gaudy AIG bonuses as compelled by “the rule of law” even after the administration forced auto union workers to take sizable cuts in their contractually guaranteed pay.

As his Chief of Staff at Treasury, Geithner chose Mark Patterson, the former top lobbyist for Goldman, Sachs. Goldman replaced Patterson with Michael Paese, who at the time was the top staffer to Democratic Rep. Barney Frank in his capacity as Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, which regulates Wall Street. Obama’s choice to oversee America’s futures markets was Gary Gensler, a former Goldman Sachs executive who, during the 1990s, was known for his shockingly lax enforcement of regulations governing derivative products. Obama re-appointed Bush’s Fed Chair Ben Bernanke, and named CEO of GE Jeffery Immelt to head his panel of jobs advisers, along with several other job-cutting corporate executives.

When Rahm Emanuel — who had made $16 million in three years as an investment banker after leaving the Clinton White House — left as Obama’s Chief of Staff to run for Mayor of Chicago, Obama chose as his replacement Bill Daley, who at the time was serving as JP Morgan’s Midwest Chairman and a director of Boeing. Shortly after Obama’s star director of Office of Management and Budget, Peter Orszag, left the administration, he became a top executive at Citigroup. The DCCC, recently headed by Emanuel and now feigning support for the protests, is characterized by little other than a strategy of supporting corporatist, Wall-Street-revering “Blue Dog” Democrats as a way of consolidating power.

One of the most significant aspects of the Obama administration is the lack of criminal prosecutions for leading Wall Street executives for the 2008 financial crisis. Obama recently opined — even while there are supposedly ongoing DOJ investigations — that Wall Street’s corruption was, in general, not illegal. The New York Times recently reported that top Obama officials are heavily pressuring New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman to join a woefully inadequate settlement agreement that would end all investigations and litigations against Wall Street firms for pervasive mortgage fraud.

Given these facts, does the Center for American Progress really believe that the protest movement named OccupyWallStreet was begun — and that people are being arrested and pepper-sprayed and ready to endure harsh winters and marching to Jamie Dimon’s house — in order to devote themselves to ensuring that these people remain in power? Does CAP and the DCCC really believe that most of the protesters are motivated — or can be motivated — to turn themselves into a get-out-the-vote machine for Obama’s re-election and the empowerment of Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Party? Obviously, if when the GOP nominates some crony capitalist like Rick Perry or eager Wall Street servant like Mitt Romney, few if any of the protesters will or should support them, nor can it be denied that the GOP in its current incarnation is steadfastly devoted to a pro-Wall-Street, corporatist agenda. But it also seems to me quite delusional to think that you’re going to exploit this protest as a way “to mobilize protesters in get-out-the-vote drives for 2012″ on behalf of the Democratic Party that I just documented.

Presumably, people who are out protesting and getting arrested are politically astute enough to be aware of some, probably most, of these facts. A rejuvenated outburst of “populist rhetoric” from Obama — a re-reading of the 2008 Change script — just as election season is heating up and Obama again needs progressive enthusiasm to remain in power seems quite unlikely to make people forget all of this.

As Robert Reich recently pointed out, OWS and the Democratic Party are not exactly natural allies given that “Obama has been extraordinarily solicitous of Wall Street and big business” and that “a big share of both parties’ campaign funds comes from the Street and corporate board rooms.” As Naomi Klein explained after speaking to the protesters, the reason they are out on the street rather than working for the DNC or OFA is precisely because they concluded that electoral politics or working for either party will not address the issues motivating them; part of what they’re protesting is the Democratic Party. For an FDL Book Salon discussion this weekend, I reviewed Lawrence Lessig’s excellent new book on our corrupted political system, Republic: Lost, and he documents exactly why he transformed from an enthusiastic supporter of his long-time friend and colleague Barack Obama in 2008 into a harsh critic of both parties: because the political system itself has been subverted by oligarchical control. As he put it in his book: : “Democracy on this account seems a show or a rule; power rests elsewhere. . . . the charade is a signal: spend your time elsewhere, because this game is not for real.”

So best of luck to CAP and the DCCC in their efforts to exploit these protests into some re-branded Obama 2012 crusade and to convince the protesters to engage in civil disobedience and get arrested all to make themselves the 2012 street version of OFA. I think they’re going to need it.

http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/
 
Occupy Montreal will be happening on Saturday in the financial district when it will be a ghost town...

that district is asleep on Saturdays and they organizers seem to bee lacking brains because nobody is going to care because nobody will be listening
 

magicstop

Member
gutter_trash said:
Occupy Montreal will be happening on Saturday in the financial district when it will be a ghost town...

that district is asleep on Saturdays and they organizers seem to bee lacking brains because nobody is going to care because nobody will be listening

Unless it's a one day protest, it sounds like a smart plan to me. Get in and get setup while it's quiet, and once business rolls around on Monday, you are already established and ready for action.

Darkshier, you're fucking awesome! That's great of you to be out there supporting people and keeping 'em hydrated. Thank you!

And finally, Jak, that's an interesting read, but I think Obama, et al, are idiots if they think they can co-opt this thing. Obama had his chance in '08, and frankly, this movement is a lot more radical than being considering with re-electing a democrat into office. Not gonna fly.
 

Zabka

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
I don't see how you can demand to be taken seriously if the basis of your movement misinterprets the core problems.
It's just an editorial. If you have a problem with the article take it up with the guy who wrote it, Henry Blodget. He's the EIC of businessinsider.com.
 
Zabka said:
It's just an editorial. If you have a problem with the article take it up with the guy who wrote it, Henry Blodget. He's the EIC of businessinsider.com.

I whole-heartedly support many of the "initiatives" OWS has taken upon itself to promote. But the problem I have with the policy discourse about financial sector regulation is that populist opinions are almost always colored by misunderstanding of the financial markets, and that's incredibly frustrating and lacks legitimacy.

I was at a talk by Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Tim Massad who was actually in charge of the TARP and even he was absolutely clueless as to what should be done. Hugely disappointing.
 

Jak140

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
Missed this earlier

The section on the banks is a laughable and irresponsible representation of the problems in the banking industry.

I don't see how you can demand to be taken seriously if the basis of your movement misinterprets the core problems.
Yes, a single section of a single web article written by one guy is the basis of the entire movement. I find it hilarious you complain about something being overly reductive and a misrepresentation, then proceed to commit the exact same sin with your dismissive remarks.
 
Jak140 said:
Yes, a single section of a single web article written by one guy is the basis of the entire movement. I find it hilarious you complain about something being overly reductive and a misrepresentation, then proceed to commit the exact same sin with your dismissive remarks.

See what I said above.

The problems contained in this article is endemic of the discourse we've been having for 3 goddamn years.

In short, we don't know and shouldn't presume to know what would actually work.
 

Jak140

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
See what I said above.

The problems contained in this article is endemic of the discourse we've been having for 3 goddamn years.

In short, we don't know and shouldn't presume to know what would actually work.


How about starting by not letting the foxes guard the hen house? It's not exactly rocket science to figure out that it isn't a good idea to let the people who used to run the banks do the regulating or vice versa.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Hasphat'sAnts said:
See what I said above.

The problems contained in this article is endemic of the discourse we've been having for 3 goddamn years.

In short, we don't know and shouldn't presume to know what would actually work.

We don't know what would actually work to achieve what end, exactly?
 
Ugh. As said before...I was out there for 4 days and nights in Minneapolis. My feet are still hurting cuz they are swollen. Plus I have a big blister on the top of my left pinky toe. Thought 2 days off(most of Tuesday, Wednesday)...would be enough but I'm gonna take Thursday off too. See if I can't go another 4 days/nights on Friday. Still gotta finish the other side of my new sign. I have a 40 X 60 posterboard that says "WHERE IS BULWORTH?" on one side....thinking of going with "POVERTY IS A WMD" on the other.
 
Timedog said:
We don't know what would actually work to achieve what end, exactly?

None of us should ever assume that policy driven financial regulation reform would make the markets significantly safer than it was from 2006-08.

Dodd-Frank, Volcker Rule, Basel III. All of them have their shortcomings.


Jak140 said:
How about starting by not letting the foxes guard the hen house? It's not exactly rocket science to figure out that it isn't a good idea to let the people who used to run the banks do the regulating or vice versa.

Why is it not a good idea? It's true that having industry outsiders can reduce conflicts of interest and the risky behaviors that arise from that. But operational risk is only a part of the problem.
 

Jak140

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
None of us should ever assume that policy driven financial regulation reform would make the markets significantly safer than it was from 2006-08.

Dodd-Frank, Volcker Rule, Basel III. All of them have their shortcomings.


A large part of what the protests are about is routing out corruption. These are obvious things to keep bad actors out of the government so they can't encourage bad faith policy which benefits themselves and their past/present/future private employer.

Hasphat'sAnts said:
Why is it not a good idea? It's true that having industry outsiders can reduce conflicts of interest and the risky behaviors that arise from that. But operational risk is only a part of the problem.

Well, it's also the beginning of the solution. There is no way that the way the system is currently structured in this regard is good for regulation enforcement and the development of effective policy. You are only seeing exclusively muddled solutions because that is what you choose to see.
 
Jak140 said:
A large part of what the protests are about is routing out corruption. These are obvious things to keep bad actors out of the government so they can't encourage bad faith policy which benefits themselves and their past/present/future private employer.



Well, it's also the beginning of the solution. There is no way that the way the system is currently structured in this regard is good for regulation enforcement and the development of effective policy. You are only seeing exclusively muddled solutions because that is what you choose to see.

I don't buy that. Operational risk controls do not, and will not address the fundamental problems in financial risk regulation.

Deutsche was levered 70 to 1 and was still compliant of the Basel tier one capital requirement, same goes for Lehman. All of their balance sheets were carefully constructed to avoid a systemic breakdown. But it happened, and we have to look at why.

The root of the 08 financial meltdown and the current sovereign debt crisis was lax lending standards. Rooting out securities fraud from the top will never solve that problem. Nor will it re-energize the economy in the foreseeable future.
 

akira28

Member
Each Occupy movement seems to have it's differences, which is logical. But will those differences mesh via consensus? ex. Wall Street seems focused on their original wide focus. The DC group has some strong anti-War membership. Other groups have their unique ways of handling business, totally unlike the original OWS group.

The whole non-leader thing, can that last? The people who take charge for organization, are they de-facto leaders because they hold the megaphone? History sets the precedent. Is there a war room somewhere? Should there be? Shouldn't there be? When the coalescence occurs, what then.

Winter Contingency plan? DC has a 4 month permit, what happens after that?]


And yeah, someone pointed that out to me as well, Obama's endorsement being more like an attempt to run out in front of OWS. He asked for the peopel to "make him do it", but will there be more than lip service? Once the voter coalitions form, he'd better find the courage one way or the other.
 

Myansie

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
Why is it not a good idea? It's true that having industry outsiders can reduce conflicts of interest and the risky behaviors that arise from that. But operational risk is only a part of the problem.

Where have you been? We had a global financial crisis in 2008 that wiped out trillions of dollars off the stockmarket. It was caused by and large by the fraudulent selling of supposedly AAA loans by the major banks. Fraudulent because they weren't AAA, they were riskier than a black jack table. So risky in the case of the Australian Hedge Fund Basis Capital their $80 million purchase from Goldman & Sachs lost $37 million in 2 weeks. Here's a link...

http://www.news.com.au/business/basis-capitals-1bn-goldman-sachs-claim/story-e6frfm1i-1225878284992

As a result that hedge fund went bankrupt. That's just the tip of the iceberg. No one's gone to jail, a couple of minute fines have been paid and that's it. The biggest reason for all of this is the banks have integrated with the justice system and the cabinet. Not only are they writing the law, they're handing out next to no punishment for when it is broken. It doesn't work. Imagine drug cartels handing out sentences for drug dealers.

The evidence that the system is broken is overwhelming. We know the laws pre 1990 were doing a pretty good job, lets go back to them. They're not perfect, but at least we're not headed towards the apocalypse.
 
Hasphat'sAnts said:
None of us should ever assume that policy driven financial regulation reform would make the markets significantly safer than it was from 2006-08.

Dodd-Frank, Volcker Rule, Basel III. All of them have their shortcomings.

Why not return the finance industry to the low-skill, low-wage industry it was for the fifty years between 1930 and 1980? No financial crises! Seriously, the value of finance to society at large is exceedingly overrated, and the risks it poses to it are immense. We've seen this story twice now. Do we really need to see it again? Anybody who knows anything about the economic history of the US understands what needs to be done. It's really not a mystery, I promise.

We study the evolution of human capital in the U.S. financial industry over the past century. Our analysis sheds light on how the financial sector performs its economic role, on its interactions with the rest of the economy, and on the consequences of financial regulation. We make three contributions. First, we document a set of new, interrelated stylized facts about the evolution of skill intensity, wages, organization, and occupational complexity in the financial industry. Second, we identify the forces that determine these evolutions. We find that tighter regulations reduce the demand for skilled workers, while complex corporate activities (IPOs, credit risk) increase the demand for skills. Finally, we analyze the sustainability of high wages in finance, and we find that 30% to 50% of wage differentials observed in the past 10 years can be attributed to rents, and can be expected to disappear. ...

Our analysis reveals a set of new stylized facts. First, the relative skill intensity and relative wages of the financial sector exhibit a U-shaped pattern from 1909 to 2006. From 1909 to 1933 the financial sector was a high skill, high wage industry. A dramatic shift occurred during the 1930s: the financial sector rapidly lost its high human capital and its wage premium relative to the rest of the private sector. The decline continued at a more moderate pace from 1950 to 1980. By that time, wages in the financial sector were similar, on average, to wages in the rest of the economy. From 1980 onward, another dramatic shift occurred. The financial sector became once again a high skill, high wage industry. Strikingly, by the end of the sample relative wages and relative education levels went back almost exactly to their pre-1930s levels.

Using micro data on occupations, we create indices to measure the complexity of the tasks performed by the financial industry. Using this index, we document a similar U-shaped pattern over the past century: financial jobs were relatively more complex and non-routine than non-financial jobs before 1930 and after 1980, but not in the middle of the sample. We then seek to explain these new stylized facts. In particular, we try to identify the forces responsible for the evolution of human capital in the financial industry. Our investigation of the causes of this pattern reveals a very tight link between deregulation and human capital in the financial sector. Highly skilled labor left the financial sector in the wake of the Depression era regulations, and started flowing back precisely when these regulations were removed. This link holds both for finance as a whole, as well as for subsectors within finance. Along with our relative complexity indices, this suggests that regulation inhibits the ability to exploit the creativity and innovation of educated and skilled workers. Deregulation unleashes creativity and innovation and increases demand for skilled workers.

The second set of forces that appear to have a large influence on the demand for skills in finance are non-financial corporate activities: in particular, IPOs and credit risk. New firms are difficult to value because they are often associated with new technologies or new business models, and also for the obvious reason that they do not have a track record. Similarly, pricing and hedging risky debt is an order of magnitude harder than pricing and hedging government debt. Indeed, we find that increases in aggregate IPO activities and credit risk predict increases in human capital intensity in the financial industry. Computers and information technology also play a role, albeit a more limited one. Contrary to common wisdom, computers cannot account for the evolution of the financial industry. The financial industry of the 1920s appears remarkably similar to the financial industry of the 1990s despite the lack of computers in the early part of the sample.

Having documented the evolution of human capital and jobs in the financial industry, as well as the set of factors that can explain this evolution, our last contribution is to study the sustainability of the high wages observed in the financial industry. Has financial creativity been over compensated? We construct a benchmark series for the relative wage in finance, controlling for education and employment risk as well as time varying returns to education. Our benchmark wage accounts well for the observed relative wage between 1910 and 1920, and from 1950 to 1990. From the mid-1920s to the mid-1930s, and from the mid-1990s to 2006, however, the compensation of employees in the financial industry appears to be too high to be consistent with a sustainable labor market equilibrium. Moreover, in the recent period, we show that this result remains even if we control for unobserved individual heterogeneity. This finding is prima facie evidence that the financial sector is not in a sustainable labor market equilibrium, and that short term rents
[overpayment] are likely to diminish. ...

Our research has two important implications for financial regulation. First, tighter regulation is likely to lead to an outflow of human capital out of the financial industry. Whether this is desirable or not depends on one’s view regarding economic externalities. Baumol (1990), Murphy, Shleifer, and Vishny (1991) and Philippon (2007) argue that the flow of talented individuals into law and financial services might not be entirely desirable, because social returns might be higher in other occupations, even though private returns are not. Our results quantify the rents earned by employees in the financial industry in the late 1990s and early 2000s. These rents explain the large flow of talent into the financial sector. At this stage, however, we cannot assess whether the inflow was too large from a social perspective.

Our results have another important implication for regulation. Following the crisis of 1930-1933 and 2007-2008, regulators have been blamed for lax oversight. In retrospect, it is clear that regulators did not have the human capital to keep up with the financial industry, and to understand it well enough to be able to exert effective regulation. Given the wage premia that we document, it was impossible for regulators to attract and retain highly-skilled financial workers, because they could not compete with private sector wages. Our approach therefore provides an explanation for regulatory failures.

http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~tphilipp/papers/pr_rev15.pdf
 
Myansie said:
Where have you been? We had a global financial crisis in 2008 that wiped out trillions of dollars off the stockmarket. It was caused by and large by the fraudulent selling of supposedly AAA loans by the major banks. Fraudulent because they weren't AAA, they were riskier than a black jack table. So risky in the case of the Australian Hedge Fund Basis Capital their $80 million purchase from Goldman & Sachs lost $37 million in 2 weeks. Here's a link...

http://www.news.com.au/business/basis-capitals-1bn-goldman-sachs-claim/story-e6frfm1i-1225878284992

As a result that hedge fund went bankrupt. That's just the tip of the iceberg. No one's gone to jail, a couple of minute fines have been paid and that's it. The biggest reason for all of this is the banks have integrated with the justice system and the cabinet. Not only are they writing the law, they're handing out next to no punishment for when it is broken. It doesn't work. Imagine drug cartels handing out sentences for drug dealers.

The evidence that the system is broken is overwhelming. We know the laws pre 1990 were doing a pretty good job, lets go back to them. They're not perfect, but at least we're not headed towards the apocalypse.

This and campaign reform, term limits, electoral reform, should be what Occupy focuses on.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
Occupy New Hampshire is a nightmare right now. In the second general assembly it was decided what park to occupy. Then as people talked to city officials, the mayor suggested a different park. The second park is less visible than the first. At the first park cops will arrest anyone on the property after 11PM. Some people are arguing to file the permit in the second park while others say we shouldn't need to get permission to occupy. This debate has caused a real unrest in person and Facebook. At the emergency GA (I wouldn't say it was one though) tonight I made a proposal to hold off deciding until Saturday as only thirty or so people showed up. Right now on Facebook there are 344 attending and 321 maybes. After arguing most of the time they seemingly agreed to my idea at the very end.
 

Jak140

Member
Hasphat'sAnts said:
I don't buy that. Operational risk controls do not, and will not address the fundamental problems in financial risk regulation.

Deutsche was levered 70 to 1 and was still compliant of the Basel tier one capital requirement, same goes for Lehman. All of their balance sheets were carefully constructed to avoid a systemic breakdown. But it happened, and we have to look at why.

The root of the 08 financial meltdown and the current sovereign debt crisis was lax lending standards. Rooting out securities fraud from the top will never solve that problem. Nor will it re-energize the economy in the foreseeable future.

Yes, and a lot of those lax lending standards were precipitated by the deregulation pushed for by Wall Street, i.e., corruption. Just because "you don't buy" that preventing corruption is even a partial solution doesn't mean it won't work and shouldn't be done.
 
Myansie said:
Where have you been? We had a global financial crisis in 2008 that wiped out trillions of dollars off the stockmarket. It was caused by and large by the fraudulent selling of supposedly AAA loans by the major banks. Fraudulent because they weren't AAA, they were riskier than a black jack table. So risky in the case of the Australian Hedge Fund Basis Capital their $80 million purchase from Goldman & Sachs lost $37 million in 2 weeks. Here's a link...

http://www.news.com.au/business/basis-capitals-1bn-goldman-sachs-claim/story-e6frfm1i-1225878284992

As a result that hedge fund went bankrupt. That's just the tip of the iceberg. No one's gone to jail, a couple of minute fines have been paid and that's it. The biggest reason for all of this is the banks have integrated with the justice system and the cabinet. Not only are they writing the law, they're handing out next to no punishment for when it is broken. It doesn't work. Imagine drug cartels handing out sentences for drug dealers.

The evidence that the system is broken is overwhelming. We know the laws pre 1990 were doing a pretty good job, lets go back to them. They're not perfect, but at least we're not headed towards the apocalypse.

I'm going to address two things.

1. The "cause" of the financial meltdown was not that an enclave of major banks tried to con investors worldwide. I don't deny that securities fraud was rampant, but the root cause, as I said before, was shitty lending, which is far more difficult to gauge and regulate.

2. The seeds of the financial crises were planted way before de-regulation in the 80s. Take the Savings and Loans crisis for example, are you really going to outlaw Money Market funds simply because it took deposits away from these banks, which ultimately led to the Garn St. Germain Act 20 years later?


And FYI, Hedge funds are considered "sophisticated investors." I hope the guys in their research department are waiting tables at Bennigans.
 
Hasphat'sAnts said:
1. The "cause" of the financial meltdown was not that an enclave of major banks tried to con investors worldwide. I don't deny that securities fraud was rampant, but the root cause, as I said before, was shitty lending, which is far more difficult to gauge and regulate.

And are you going to address what was driving the "shitty lending?" The answer isn't helpful to your cause of clearing Wall Street.
 
empty vessel said:
And are you going to address what was driving the "shitty lending?" The answer isn't helpful to your cause of clearing Wall Street.

Better ways to manage value added risk, which is fundamentally different from operational risk.

I'm interested to see what Basel comes up with in November, but having a government agency there to tell the banks who they can lend to and who they can't lend to is idiotic.
 
As usual, Kurt Vonnegut had some pretty relevant things to say:

America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, “It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.” It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: “if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?” There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.
Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.
 

alstein

Member
I think the OWS should make hay with the Dems, but try to take over the party in the process. Need to primary challenge folks like Ben Nelson and some "blue dogs" who are too pro-business.
 

Sapiens

Member
BobsRevenge said:
Mainstreet actually is literally getting sold. Public property is being sold to private entities because local governments can't sustain themselves.

Take, for instance, the Chicago parking meter deal:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/busi...bi-own-all-of-chicago-s-parking-meters/18627/

They sold to Bank of America who sold to interests in the Middle East. And the whole thing turned into a disaster.

Increasingly, local governments are going to have to resort to these kinds of deals to stay above water. So the selling isn't even abstract, it is literal. Banks literally buy up public interests and sell ownership to private and/or foreign investors, because the economy they fucked up can't afford to pay for it anymore. But they can.
Holy shit at the parking meters! The govt of Chicago must have looked like a bunch of rubes to the "shadowy" investors.

Infuriating.
 

jchap

Member
alstein said:
I think the OWS should make hay with the Dems, but try to take over the party in the process. Need to primary challenge folks like Ben Nelson and some "blue dogs" who are too pro-business.

The problem is their ideology is not populist (or even close) in areas where blue dogs run. Blue dogs exist because of the demand of their constituents.
 

magicstop

Member
teruterubozu said:
Pouring rain for the next 3 days. I suspect the "occupation" may thin out and lose steam.

Seriously? The group that's been there for a month? The one that's been planning on rain, cold weather, snow? I doubt it. In fact, you can read about their latest initiative to get water proof containers to help restructure and safely store various essentials at the park.

I'm more concerned about the fact that I'm seeing reports saying Bloomberg told them they have to leave Zuccotti for awhile, so the park's "owner" (who?) can clean the park up.

admiralackbar.jpg
 

alstein

Member
jchap said:
The problem is their ideology is not populist (or even close) in areas where blue dogs run. Blue dogs exist because of the demand of their constituents.

You have to run anyways to change people's minds. At the very least you can be disruptive, or maybe get out enough vote to push the mainstream left. That's how the tea party pushed the Reps right. This is why Lieberman's an independent instead of a Dem.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Anabuhabkuss said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A&sns=fb

This video is absolute bullshit. When you break the law, you're going to get arrested. Convenient how it refuses to show the minutes that took place before the arrests were made.

I dunno, it's a video obviously trying to expose the hypocrisy of the political leadership, and i think it does a pretty good job. And i'm not exactly hearing Clinton/Obama telling the people of Libya that if they break Libyan laws they should expect to be arrested.


These protests are doing more harm than good.

Harming who?
 
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