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[kikanny]

In a perfect world I would want the results to be changed so that Felipe is 1 and Alonso is 2 followed by disqualifying Ferrari from the WCC.

However, FIA does not make judgments that make any sense. So realistically, this is what I think will happen. Strip Felipe, Alonso and Ferrari of the points obtained from this race in both WDC and WCC with another hefty fine. We'll see.

 

[Bobo]

The only punishment that I see fit would to disqualify both Ferrari from the race and this race alone. I would think it would be harsh if they were completely disqualified from both championships. As for the order today Ferrari could have been a bit more subtle… see Barrichello’s “move” on Hulkenberg at the Turkish Grand Prix… Nobody probably remembers that one though as it wasn’t really significant (Not in points paying positions.) Regarding Raikkonen’s “pass” on Massa in Brazil 2007, that was under very different circumstances, Massa was already out of the championship and he “knew” what to do in letting him pass as there was no real point in winning other than for the sake of winning his home Grand Prix.

Anyway rather dull race after what was a great qualifying session. That said… It’s good to see the Ferrari up at the pointy end of the field come race day. Even though I want Hamilton to win the WDC it should hopefully make the rest of the season exciting if they can keep it up, especially with 6... no 5 or is it 4? drivers challenging for the title.

 

[justjohn]

Lince is back :lol

 

[Fowler]

I'm not wading into the debate over whether team orders are right or not -- you guys seem to have that one covered quite well -- but I feel the need to point something out here.

Everyone points to Ferrari getting away with blatant team orders in 2007, when Raikkonen got past Massa to get the win he needed to be champion. But does anyone actually remember how it happened?

It didn't happen with coded messages and a mysterious gear-change mistake... Ferrari orchestrated their pit stops so that Raikkonen emerged from his ahead of Massa. They got away with it thanks to an extraordinarily clever piece of team strategy that the old Ferrari was rather good at, much to my annoyance as a McLaren fan.

Contrast the smooth operators that were Ferrari 2007 with the Ferrari team of today, which handled the situation so awkwardly that Christian "VettelFan87" Horner is probably asking Domenicali for tips on how to win races and alienate your #2 driver.

 

[Leonsito]

Good read here: http://www.planet-f1.com/editorial/6278903/Why-Ferrari-Were-Wrong.

 

[Deadman]

he's still winning races, pushing the cars to their limits and destroying his team-mates, Hamilton on the other hand choked on the first lap of Brazil 2007 and shortly after with the rev limit button :lol

and don't forget Whitmarsh "we were racing Fernando" comments, now, a whole British team against you and you end the season on the same points as their Golden Boy, that's kind of an achievement there... if only TEAM ORDERS that day in Brazil 2007 had not favored Raikkonen...

You do know that if those team orders didnt happen and there was a massa - raikkonen 1-2 then hamilton would have been champion that day, not alonso?

 

[megateto]

Considering we're talking about "team orders" here, there's no way he can break the rule alone obviously. That doesn't mean that the team orders were not given because he kept complaining that he was faster than Massa, implying to the team at least twice during the race that they should tell Massa to let him pass. He was getting more and more frustrated on track because he couldn't pass Massa, and he was being the whiner he is.

It seems that since his glory days in the Renault of years past, Alonso has forgotten how to be a real winner, and has turned into a complaining cocksucker who will happily whine and cheat and do anything to be favored by the team he's in. It's disgusting to see him turn out this way, because he was once a great man. I think being Hamilton's teammate basically destroyed him.

Making quite a lot of assumptions, don't you think? Of course I can't tell wether they are right or wrong, but neither can you .

I'm an Alonso fan and how could I not be, living in his hometown XD. He's done some things I don't support, but in this particular case, the hate he's getting for this race when the only facts we have are that this was a team decision never cease to amaze me. And how much hate he's getting...

 

[kikanny]

Making quite a lot of assumptions, don't you think? Of course I can't tell wether they are right or wrong, but neither can you .

I'm an Alonso fan and how could I not be, living in his hometown XD. He's done some things I don't support, but in this particular case, the hate he's getting for this race when the only facts we have are that this was a team decision never cease to amaze me. And how much hate he's getting...

Well...he didn't do any favors did he? Kept complaining to the team about how Massa was slower and the "this is ridiculous" comment. If he was truly a better driver, he should have stopped talking and overtook Felipe on the track. After he was gifted the win, he blatantly lied he didn't know about any of this shit. This is highly in contrast to what he said at Valencia on how the race was manipulated. When you put all the things together, how can you not hate the guy?

EDIT: He's a very good driver, but he's turned into a whiny little bitch where everyone has to bend over for him.

 

[itxaka]

Making quite a lot of assumptions, don't you think? Of course I can't tell wether they are right or wrong, but neither can you .

I'm an Alonso fan and how could I not be, living in his hometown XD. He's done some things I don't support, but in this particular case, the hate he's getting for this race when the only facts we have are that this was a team decision never cease to amaze me. And how much hate he's getting...

Problem is, you can't go and complain and bitch about other drivers doing illegal things, and then do that yourself. That makes you a whiner and a hypocrite. Hamiltan can do illegal things, but he doesn't complain to the FIA about other drivers, that is why the hate is lower for him :lol

Also, Alonso has gone really down. He doesn't seems the same pilot as a 3 years ago. I know you can blame everything on the car, but with other cars he was doing a better driving and races than he is doing now.

 

[Fowler]

Well...he didn't do any favors did he? Kept complaining to the team about how Massa was slower and the "this is ridiculous" comment. If he was truly a better driver, he should have stopped talking and overtook Felipe on the track. After he was gifted the win, he blatantly lied he didn't know about any of this shit. This is highly in contrast to what he said at Valencia on how the race was manipulated. When you put all the things together, how can you not hate the guy?

EDIT: He's a very good driver, but he's turned into a whiny little bitch where everyone has to bend over for him.

Come on now, I'm no Alonso fan, but do you honestly think he'd tell the truth there? I would be amazed if ANY driver did. How can they? If there were no solid suspicions of team orders before, he'd have single-handedly sparked an investigation; if there was, he'd have confirmed their guilt.

Don't forget, these are crazy competitive guys; whether the win was right or not is probably irrelevant to Alonso (or again, any driver). They want the 25 points. Why start some sort of process that MIGHT see those points taken from you?

 

[megateto]

Well...he didn't do any favors did he? Kept complaining to the team about how Massa was slower and the "this is ridiculous" comment.

Kept? We only know he said that once, but we don't know what he meant with that. Maybe he meant that it was dangerous for the team to have their two drivers fighting and risking destroying the cars.

If he was truly a better driver, he should have stopped talking and overtook Felipe on the track.

Again, we only have one record on that, but of course I agree with the other part, this whole thing has been a mess and shameful.

After he was gifted the win, he blatantly lied he didn't know about any of this shit. This is highly in contrast to what he said at Valencia on how the race was manipulated. When you put all the things together, how can you not hate the guy?

Lies: what do you expect? He and the whole team are blatantly calling all the people who saw the race stupids, but now all they can hope is to be left as unharmed as possible. Horrible, but that's the way sometimes things go. And the way he called out the mess that the stewards caused in Valencia makes his current stance even worse. How can I not hate him? Overall, I really like the way he has behaved through out his career.

I fully agree with the article Leonsito linked: this race has tainted Alonso's current championship. But I put the blame on the team, not him.

 

[Lince]

Lince is back :lol

sorry I'm too bored tonight :lol

did no one notice how Felipe was locking all over the place with the harder compound and Alonso was right behind him?, that was when he made the "this is ridiculous" comment, it made sense at the time and he let some air in between the two cars to avoid a crash, he didn't mean "this is ridiculous I wanna be the number one please let me win" as some are implying here.

edit: Alonso on Spanish radio, "the fastest driver of all weekend won today, that's the only thing that matters to me and it was fair"

 

[Chris R]

Well this giant shitstorm is what I get for going to bed half way through the race because it was getting boring :lol Come back and see 400+ new posts I have to wade through.

The ONLY good news for Ferrari is that the next race is only 7 days away. Had there been a 2 or 3 week gap the press would have nothing else to do but report on this fiasco.

 

[Pterion]

he's still winning races, pushing the cars to their limits and destroying his team-mates, Hamilton on the other hand choked on the first lap of Brazil 2007 and shortly after with the rev limit button :lol

and don't forget Whitmarsh "we were racing Fernando" comments, now, a whole British team against you and you end the season on the same points as their Golden Boy, that's kind of an achievement there... if only TEAM ORDERS that day in Brazil 2007 had not favored Raikkonen...

:lol :lol :lol

 

[itsgreen]

Well this giant shitstorm is what I get for going to bed half way through the race because it was getting boring :lol Come back and see 400+ new posts I have to wade through.

The ONLY good news for Ferrari is that the next race is only 7 days away. Had there been a 2 or 3 week gap the press would have nothing else to do but report on this fiasco.

Oh no this is so much worse...

After a few days there is nothing more to say untill the WMSC... Ferrari could have just kept quiet for weeks...

But now they are going to have to dodge flak during the prep for Hungary... Difficult questions non-stop from thursday onwards...

 

[Chris R]

Oh no this is so much worse...

After a few days there is nothing more to say untill the WMSC... Ferrari could have just kept quiet for weeks...

But now they are going to have to dodge flak during the prep for Hungary... Difficult questions non-stop from thursday onwards...

But this time next week the story should be "over" Even more if something major happens next weekend.

 

[AndyD]

It's most unfair to Massa in my opinion. Forced by his team to throw the race and then penalised again. Much as I'd like to see Alonso punished as harshly as possible, how about simply reinstating the drivers' points to where they should be (Massa #1, Alonso #2) and harshly penalising the constructor?

He was not forced to give up the position. He actually acted out giving up the position, whereas Alonso simply passed the slower car of Massa. If Massa made a real mistake or pulled over intentionally, Alonso would have taken the position regardless.

So Massa actually is more guilty than Alonso to me. Alonso can whine to the team all he wants about slower cars in front, but at the end of the day he is a driver and if he wants position he should take it. The team should manage both drivers and calm them down or whatever, not manuever the race results.

Alonso behind a slower Massa should be no different than Alonso behind a slower Hamilton or Vettel or whoever. Regular pass/overtake rules should apply with no weaving and whatnot. If he is legitimately faster, then let him overtake. If the defending car ahead is good at defense within the rules, let him keep the position.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

Absolutely disgraceful act. I was annoyed when it happened in 2002, and I'm even more annoyed now as it's a blatant breach of the rules. The fact it happened is bad enough - it ruined any excitement that was left in the race because we knew that the Ferraris weren't going to go head-to-head - but it was afterwards that really infuriated me. I'm glad Eddie Jordan was talking so much sense because I might've exploded if somebody wasn't as outraged at me. For Alonso to make out it was a mistake on Massa's part and then for that to be echoed by the rest of the team in the interviews was plain insulting to the intelligence of everybody watching. There's not one person who doesn't believe they just cheated and were trying to cover their tracks and I'm glad Massa didn't force a smile and play the part. His refusal to answer those questions says it all.

I think both of the Ferraris should have been disqualified, even though that's a horrible thing to do to Massa. If fixing the race isn't punished in such a way then why won't it happen again and again? To me this is no worse than a boxer taking a dive.

Urgh. It's actually made me angry.

 

[Shaneus]

Oh, Webber and Vettel on equal WDC points now? Who's the #1 driver?

Coming up: Team orders to RBR drivers, "How about you just fight it out and see what happens, eh gents?" :lol

 

[AndyD]

Oh, Webber and Vettel on equal WDC points now? Who's the #1 driver?

Coming up: Team orders to RBR drivers, "How about you just fight it out and see what happens, eh gents?" :lol

Theyve been doing that already, which means from now on neither will finish a race as they will run each other off the road.

 

[magnificent83]

Good read here: http://www.planet-f1.com/editorial/6278903/Why-Ferrari-Were-Wrong.

Article was a great read
I didn't realize its been a year since Massa was in the accident. He should have been allowed to win a race he had earned. Shame Ferrari robbed him of a great fairytale ending to one of the worst years of his career. Also to silence all the critics, myself included, that thought Massa was done.

 

[moojito]

Holy crap, it took me just as long to catch up on this thread as it did to watch the race! As much as I hope ferarri get some serious punishment for this, it'd be shame if ferarri in turn took it out on Rob Smedley for making it so obvious.

 

[Deadman]

F1racemanager is up and the site is surprisingly speedy and responsive. Im pretty sure this is a sign of the apocalypse.

1117 points and up in to 5th, nice.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Very tough situation, but there is always team orders, Ferrari tends to just be bad at handling them. Massa had to concede his position to Kimi in 2007. If he didn't Kimi would not have won the title. And this is nowhere near as bad as 02 in my opinion.

 

[S. L.]

F1racemanager is up and the site is surprisingly speedy and responsive. Im pretty sure this is a sign of the apocalypse.

1117 points and up in to 5th, nice.

points are pretty even for everyone eh.
also we increased our lead over AtlasF1 by two more points heh

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Good perspective:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/team_orders_rule_ties_f1_in_kn.html

 

[DarkJediKnight]

Good perspective:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/team_orders_rule_ties_f1_in_kn.html

Well written with great quotes and examples.

 

[Bobo]

F1racemanager is up and the site is surprisingly speedy and responsive. Im pretty sure this is a sign of the apocalypse.

1117 points and up in to 5th, nice.

Hmm... I'm right behind you in 6th spot and I notice that you have a lot of Ferrari in your team. Now I really hope Ferrari get Disqualified.

 

[jey_16]

WTF at you guys saying to dsq Alonso & massa, even in 2007 when hamilton and Alonso were competing in an illegal car, they let them keep their points!

At worst, they should only penalise the team.

Some of you are so blinded in your hate for Ferrari & Alonso.....the outrage is hilarious

 

[AndyD]

WTF at you guys saying to dsq Alonso & massa, even in 2007 when hamilton and Alonso were competing in an illegal car, they let them keep their points!

At worst, they should only penalise the team.

Some of you are so blinded in your hate for Ferrari & Alonso.....the outrage is hilarious

I think part of the difference was that the drivers then did not have control of the car building, so they were just drivers, they were innocent of sorts.

Here, a driver actively did something to affect the outcome knowing what he was doing at the instruction of the team. Alonso is not as much to blame here as Massa is for following directions. Alonso is pretty much innocent, but he received the benefits of others' meddling.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

I would honestly not penalize anyone and simply just get rid of that stupid rule.

 

[lherre]

Good perspective:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/team_orders_rule_ties_f1_in_kn.html

Shumacher thinks the same that me (too much hypocrisy here). Very good article.

Schumacher himself was very interesting on this subject after the race on Sunday.

"Watching the TV occasionally (on the big screens during the race), I've seen Felipe being in first position and I felt happy because he is a good friend of mine," he said. "Then hearing that Alonso won the race I was wondering what kind of strategy was that?

"I have been criticised in the past for exactly that and I have to say that I would do exactly the same if I was in their situation. At the end of the day, what are we here for? It's fighting for a championship and there is only one that can win it.

"By the end of the year, if you think you would have lost the championship for exactly that point you will ask yourself, all the fans, the television, the journalists, why didn't you do so?

"If you go back to other years, other teams and other situations, in the last race there were clear team orders and everybody accepts those. Whether it's the last race, second last race or even earlier, what's the point?

"I can see that in the years when we did it, because we were leading so much, that people thought it was unnecessary and I can agree on that one in a way.

"But in principle I cannot. I agree with what's going on. You have to do it in a way that is nice and maybe not too obvious - make it nice fight. But there's only one target, and that's winning the championship."

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

My vote for today: Barichello.

Never forget! http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=tFwX8knmGc4&t=2m10s

When I posted this video few minutes prior to the race, I didn't know that Ferrari would be trolling this thread.

GAF has Ferrari team members trolling, confirmed!

 

[Mohonky]

Don't agree with Schumacher on this though naturally he is going to defend it, he was let past other racers in the past and the most famous participant in the act of fixing the final positions.

I can't be bothered to get into the argument over the ethics of it but there's a few things that really annoy me;

- Massa now knows his place at Ferrari. He's the new Barrichello, talented driver that'll never win a WDC. Massa may not have been in the same position to win this season going off previous results, but if you were to go from the results of Hockenheim, he had it all over Alonso all race. Whose to say he wouldn't carry form on the for rest of the season? Well he won't now after this knowing he's Ferrari's second wrung driver but still, he has been potential WDC before so he's already proven he can do it.

- Alonso is the biggest fucking sook and hypocrite to have ever jumped into an F1 car, even more so than Webber. He constantly bitched about Hamilton apparently getting preferential treatment when he was at Maclaren, went round telling the FIA that Maclaren told him to lie in the past during the liargate affair after Australia and now he's doing exactly the same shit at Ferrari. Let's not even touch on 'crash-gate' affair in Singapore. The guy can't operate unless he's clearly the favoured driver and the team is doing everything short of giving his balls a jiggle between races.

 

[mrklaw]

hmm. Ferrari.

firstly, they were obviously team orders. I hope Massa's engineer doesn't get fired for being so blatant.

BUT, you could probably claim by the letter of the law that Ferrari didn't tell Massa to pull over, and that Massa made his own mind up to let the 'faster' car through.


Personally I think a ban on team orders is ridiculous. Teams need ways to get the best result for them. Saying it deprives us of an 'epic battle' is ludicrous - the team would want both cars to finish and so would strongly request that any overtaking is done safely with their teammates.


Personally I have no problem that if a team's cars are line astern, they can be allowed to swap them over. but not if the cars are miles apart, and not if they are split on the track by other cars.

 

[mrklaw]

oh and arse to the F1 fantasy league. Had kobayashi, 'upgraded' to buemi (hopefully to then step up again later on), Buemi gets fuck all points, Kobayashi scores well and now Kobyashi is more expensive than Buemi! Could have saved 7 million, ridden Kobayashi up the drivers board and had more to spend. Now I have to spend almost all my 10mill winnings just to get back to where I was last week. Grr :/

 

[S. L.]

oh and arse to the F1 fantasy league. Had kobayashi, 'upgraded' to buemi (hopefully to then step up again later on), Buemi gets fuck all points, Kobayashi scores well and now Kobyashi is more expensive than Buemi! Could have saved 7 million, ridden Kobayashi up the drivers board and had more to spend. Now I have to spend almost all my 10mill winnings just to get back to where I was last week. Grr :/

I'm expecting Kobayashi/Sauber to be a good midfielder for the rest of the season.
Toro Rosso has been a bit sucky for the last two races or so... thou they were pretty solid the races before that... dunno what to expect

 

[Steroyd]

Personally I think a ban on team orders is ridiculous. Teams need ways to get the best result for them. Saying it deprives us of an 'epic battle' is ludicrous - the team would want both cars to finish and so would strongly request that any overtaking is done safely with their teammates.

Too true, we saw a Red Bull 1-2 self implode, we nearly saw a McClaren 1-2 self implode with Ferrari seeing this and playing catch-up they can ill afford such a mess up at such a fragile stage of the WDC/WCC. They would have definately told the drivers to be cautious at some point which would have denied us an "epic battle" anyway.

That said it was straight up against the rules no matter how stupid the rule is and how Ferrari handled it afterwards was appalling.

 

[Lince]

whoever said www.planet-f1.com was a good place to read on....

Alonso was lucky not to receive the fate of fellow countryman Alberto Contador in the Tour de France, who was booed on the podium for taking an unfair advantage of a fellow competitor and won the whole Tour because of it.

oh yes of course, look this competitor had a failure on his bike and Contador just kept going and that was all, it's the same as asking Vettel to wait for Hamilton because the latter just had a puncture, what a pile of shit from the British tabloids, Spain can't even win the Tour de France without calling it "unfair". These journos are like mad kids playing around in school, not a hint of professionalism or respect. At least they didn't try to make a comment on another Spaniard, Jorge Lorenzo, winning MotoGP yesterday.

 

[Ghost]

This picture is amazing!

 

[Pterion]

Britain vs Spain again... *sighs*

 

[megateto]

Britain vs Spain again... *sighs*

The funny thing is that this shit usually only goes one way, from the UK to Spain XD. Besides Hamilton, it's sad the hate he gets from part of the Spanish media.

 

[Deadman]

whoever said www.planet-f1.com was a good place to read on....



oh yes of course, look this competitor had a failure on his bike and Contador just kept going and that was all, it's the same as asking Vettel to wait for Hamilton because the latter just had a puncture, what a pile of shit from the British tabloids, Spain can't even win the Tour de France without calling it "unfair". These journos are like mad kids playing around in school, not a hint of professionalism or respect. At least they didn't try to make a comment on another Spaniard, Jorge Lorenzo, winning MotoGP yesterday.

So french people boo him, but its the british medias fault because they report that?

 

[Lince]

Britain vs Spain again... *sighs*

yeah I mean, why? is that what reallly sells there in the UK? I'm puzzled. Let the f* Tour de France alone, it has nothing to do with F1 or what happened yesterday, it's just moronic to bring that to the table.

So french people boo him, but its the british medias fault because they report that?

you're a bit slow at reading comprehension let me help

Alonso was lucky not to receive the fate of fellow countryman Alberto Contador in the Tour de France, who was booed on the podium for taking an unfair advantage of a fellow competitor and won the whole Tour because of it.

that comment right there is just planet-f1 opinion on the matter, "taking an unfair advantage", where this British tabloid saw an unfair advantage (I really doubt they even watched the event) the rest of the world just watched a bike suffering from mechanical issues, nothing more.

 

[trineo_feo]

Spain is just winning everything lately. Sorry Brits

 

[Deadman]

that comment right there is just planet-f1 opinion on the matter, "taking an unfair advantage", where the British saw an unfair advantage the rest of the world just watched a bike suffering from mechanical issues, nothing more.

So the french were booing him for what reason then?

 

[Lince]

So the french were booing him for what reason then?

a lot of French "fans" have even booed Rafael Nadal a bunch of times, go figure, Spanish media say the French are tired of watching the same Spaniards winning their main sport events every year, hilarious but what else? I mean, Nadal? he's so humble, sporting, respectful and a nice lad, there's really no reason. Alonso on the other hand... he can be weird a lot of times, like when he announced he was going to lay down in front of MSC's Ferrari @ Monaco !! :lol

 

[iapetus]

So the french were booing him for what reason then?

I guess that punctures that delusion.

 

[Igo]

a lot of French "fans" have even booed Rafael Nadal a bunch of times, go figure, Spanish media say the French are tired of watching the same Spaniards winning their main sport events every year, hilarious but what else? I mean, Nadal? he's so humble, sporting, respectful and a nice lad, there's really no reason. Alonso on the other hand... he can be weird a lot of times, like when he announced he was going to lay down in front of MSC's Ferrari @ Monaco !! :lol

The French probably don't take kindly to Nadal's 'injury' breaks when he's losing. He's not the only one to be boo'ed for that but I doubt that's being reported. French people tried of Spaniards success is a much better story.

There's a victim mentality at play here but I can't be bothered to go into it.

 

[NHale]

WTF at you guys saying to dsq Alonso & massa, even in 2007 when hamilton and Alonso were competing in an illegal car, they let them keep their points!

At worst, they should only penalise the team.

Some of you are so blinded in your hate for Ferrari & Alonso.....the outrage is hilarious

That's because for McLaren fans, having the complete car design and plans for development of one of your rival car it's less serious than a team deciding which driver should compete for the drivers championship.

And to McLaren fans, do you remember Monaco 2007? It seems you are having a problem remember that race. It was the race Fernando Alonso in a McLaren was leading and Hamilton was right behind and after the last pit stop, Ron Dennis said in the radio to Lewis "Hold station". After the race Lewis was fuming and said something about being the #2 driver in the team, Ron Dennis was even summed to talk to the stewards. Of course, hold station was no team order, right?

Like Mike Gascoyne said team orders is part of the sport but when you do it be more careful than what Ferrari did, but it shouldn't be more than that...