notseqi
Gold Member
They should have made that clear, maybe by giving it a name that reflects that.Because the PS5 Pro is a stopgap console, it's basically the PS5+ and not the PS6.
They should have made that clear, maybe by giving it a name that reflects that.Because the PS5 Pro is a stopgap console, it's basically the PS5+ and not the PS6.
We do know RDNA4 will have improved ML hardware (compared to RDNA3). PS5 Pro is very likely using the same thing.Yes! the most surprising albeit disappointing bit for Radeon cards is that the machine learning hardware used on PS5 Pro will be missing on RDNA4 and thus we'll have to wait for RDNA5/UDNA for FSR to implement AI upscaling
Notice that they used the word custom and not bespoke.If its a RDNA4 feature why would he call the machine learning hardware custom? Seems like it was added to it and not present on the regular RDNA4 we'll see on the off the shelf cards
The CPU will also have access to improved bandwidth, even without the 10%. And 1.5% less GPU is like nothing (tiny bit less GPU, but same bandwith), I expect most developers to select that setting. Sony makes it look like they have even more bandwith available than those 28% which is very probably true as they don't usually speak nonsense in their SDKs.Even so, the PS4 Pro had the CPU running at much higher frequency. Yes, PS5 Pro can technically run the CPU ever so slightly faster, with a very minor hit on GPU performance, but it's still basically the same which is disappointing. That, and the price of course.
Yes indeed. I think they will use some of the new ML instructions available in RDNA4 tech, but not all of them which they don't need. They probably mostly need that sweat int8 power for PSSR.Notice that they used the word custom and not bespoke.
Custom refers to products or services made based on predetermined options, while bespoke involves creating something entirely unique from scratch.
Custom as in modifying an existing products to meet their needs. 60 CUs with two Shader Engines are referred to as custom since no other AMD RDNA GPU is similar.
Would this apply to the GPU as well?Did you notice that the 3700X can output +100 fps in most games. Even Baldurs Gate gets an average of 80 fps.
For 60 fps, the Zen 2 on the PS5 Pro is well enough. The only exception is with really badly optimized games.
Would this apply to the GPU as well?
One could say the PS4 Pro is still GCN2 like the PS4 for BC purposes but with GCN5 features for better performance.
Would the PS5 Pro be still be RDNA2 for BC but with RDNA4 features?
Mark Cerny only mentioned it's larger with better RT and added AI capabilities.
Kinda like these tweets are suggesting.
You know about the PS5 RDNA1/2 hybrid architecture, so figure you would understand these tweets without going full PS fanboy defense mode.
Would this apply to the GPU as well?
One could say the PS4 Pro is still GCN2 like the PS4 for BC purposes but with GCN5 features for better performance.
Would the PS5 Pro be still be RDNA2 for BC but with RDNA4 features?
Mark Cerny only mentioned it's larger with better RT and added AI capabilities.
Kinda like these tweets are suggesting.
You know about the PS5 RDNA1/2 hybrid architecture, so figure you would understand these tweets without going full PS fanboy defense mode.
True but the point I'm making is they would still have to add BC into RDNA3.5 which is the main reason for not upgrading the CPU.That fanboy argues a lot about RDNA3. But PS5 Pro doesn't use RDNA3 at all. It uses RDNA3.5 + RT / ML from RDNA4. Viola should be a prototype of RDNA4 and should look nothing like RDNA3.
Yea, he didn't even talk about the Multi Frame Super Resolution (MFSR) implementation from the MLiD leak.I have no idea. But I was a bit dismayed that Cerny didn't do a technical presentation for the Pro, like he did for the PS5.
Asides from a few theoretical throughput numbers, he didn't say anything about the hardware.
Yea, he didn't even talk about the Multi Frame Super Resolution (MFSR) implementation from the MLiD leak.
RDNA5? Yeah no.
I don't think AMD will use Machine Learning anytime soon if ever.
They'll just keep betting on FSR and trying to win the low-mid range market from Nvidia.
I see, I thought it was something like frame generation.That could be just a different way of saying temporal accumulation. Like all temporal upscalers use.
Because it’s a premium product for professionals.RDNA3/4/5, I still don't understand how the PS5 Pro is $700. Nearly everything is reused from the PS5 architecture besides the GPU features.
Is it because of AI, 2TB storage or wafer cost?
FYI, Xbox 360's Xenos SIMD+scalar architecture is different from Radeon HD 2000's VLIW5 architecture.Because the PS5 Pro is using an RDNA 3.5 GPU, but they added some features that will only exist in RDNA 4, like the ML hardware.
It's nothing new, AMD always done it like this:
Xbox 360 using an X1850, but with unified shaders from the Radeon HD 2000 that were released 6 months later.
PS4 using an HD 7970, but with Radeon 200 async shaders.
PS4 using an RX 470, but with the Rapid Packed Math of the Vega architecture.
PS5 with a mix of RDNA 1 with features from RDNA 2.
They did almost the same thing for PS4 Pro, plus he 60. How do you think a 60 year old is supposed to look?What's really actually bothering me is this...did Cerny not look real in that video? It almost looked like CGI and on purpose. I could be crazy but seriously watch it again when the video shows him. Just didn't look natural. I thought the whole time they were doing that to show the tech behind the pro like "Look how real this looks" but I don't know. Look at his PS5 tech conference as opposed to the Pro video.
Game compatibility...that's why...I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine
I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine
What? Cerny made it clear the Pros aren't next Gen consoles just the "perfected" base model .They should have made that clear, maybe by giving it a name that reflects that.
Because RDNA4 launches in ~4 months and AMD doesn't want their features spoiled.I have no idea. But I was a bit dismayed that Cerny didn't do a technical presentation for the Pro, like he did for the PS5.
Asides from a few theoretical throughput numbers, he didn't say anything about the hardware.
Because RDNA4 launches in ~4 months and AMD doesn't want their features spoiled.
Yea, he didn't even talk about the Multi Frame Super Resolution (MFSR) implementation from the MLiD leak.
I would like to know if that is similar to Frame Generation.
This is how the mid gen upgrade works, it's a decent upgrade but the price is too high unfortunately.This
This upgrade is almost worthless without a corresponding cpu upgrade. Even ps4 pro had a 33% frequency boost (which in itself was just a small boost) - ps5 pro has a measly 10% boost, it will barely be noticable
AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.That is probably the reason. I hadn't considered that.
EDIT: I just remembered. The Road to PS5 was done in 18 Mar 2020.
But the RNDA2 by AMD presentation was done in 25 Oct 2020.
This means we'll get an official RDNA4 announcements and features before PS5 Pro releases and we don'thave to wait until next year?AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.
AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.
Comment ripped from the pages of the PS4 Pro... there are reason... this is not the PS6..I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine
yeah, dont call it playstation 6 thenWhat? Cerny made it clear the Pros aren't next Gen consoles just the "perfected" base model .
Need to stay on the same architecture for CPU. All pro consoles have maintained the original CPU to some degree. This avoids fragmentation and ensures compatibility between models.I just want to k ow why they didn’t bump the cpu up?? Easily could have gotten a better cpu in there for this cost increase. Would have made this an instant classic machine
Notice i did not claim PS4Pro was vega, just that it took a feature (RPM) from itPS4 Pro GPU didn't include Vega's 64 ROPS 4MB L2 cache link.
BVH8 with 2 triangles RT core is just two BVH4 with triangle RT core super glue.
So you speculate RDNA4 RT could be on par with Ampere?Ampere RT core has BVH4 with 2 triangles.
Keep in mind Zen CPUs especially the older versions hit diminishing returns past certain threshold they dont gain much from frequency increase at the expense of much higher power consumption. They might not gain much from a substantial clock increase past the sweet spotEven so, the PS4 Pro had the CPU running at much higher frequency. Yes, PS5 Pro can technically run the CPU ever so slightly faster, with a very minor hit on GPU performance, but it's still basically the same which is disappointing. That, and the price of course.
To be fair 3700x has 4x the L3 cache (32mb vs 8mb) and faster clocksDid you notice that the 3700X can output +100 fps in most games. Even Baldurs Gate gets an average of 80 fps.
For 60 fps, the Zen 2 on the PS5 Pro is well enough. The only exception is with really badly optimized games.
Dont be so sure, AMD is set to merge compute and radeon graphics again with UDNA so it will make more sense in the future to leverage i robust machine learning hardware that would otherwise be a waste of die space for radeons graphicsThey'll just keep betting on FSR and trying to win the low-mid range market from Nvidia.
The thing that has me scratching my head, is why Cerny called it custom machine learning hardware if its just using the same thing?We do know RDNA4 will have improved ML hardware (compared to RDNA3). PS5 Pro is very likely using the same thing.
RDNA 3.5 + RT/ML from RDNA4 is a longer way of saying RDNA4, they are the same thing afaik RNDA3.5 implements all of RDNA4 benefits sans improved RT to save on die space. So if you add RT improvements to it, doesnt that just make it RDNA4 based or on par with RDNA4 if you want to get technicalThat fanboy argues a lot about RDNA3. But PS5 Pro doesn't use RDNA3 at all. It uses RDNA3.5 + RT / ML from RDNA4. Viola should be a prototype of RDNA4 and should look nothing like RDNA3.
If its just using standard RDNA4 AI blocks why do you think he called the machine learning hardware "custom"? im interested in your takeNotice that they used the word custom and not bespoke.
Custom refers to products or services made based on predetermined options, while bespoke involves creating something entirely unique from scratch.
Custom as in modifying an existing products to meet their needs. 60 CUs with two Shader Engines are referred to as custom since no other AMD RDNA GPU is similar.
Exactly my thoughts, I expect AMD to bring up PS5 Pro during their RDNA4 revealBecause RDNA4 launches in ~4 months and AMD doesn't want their features spoiled.
RDNA 3.5 with RT improvements IS RDNA4... The only difference between the two is RT which RDNA 3.5 opted out to safe on die space for laptop APUs
Also he didn't call the improved RT hardware "custom" which makes sense considering its part of RDNA4 which we now know they motivated AMD to develop
PS5 is RDNA2, theres no RDNA 1 or 1.5 . They just worked with AMD to pick and chose the features from it
Correct but with the important distinction that in all those examples they gave the latest arch + some forward features not the last gen arch + some next gen features.
And again im not surprised by this fact itself (I expected Pro to have at least one feature beyond RDNA4) what surprises me is that AMD is still not implementing machine learning hardware for image upscaling on their latest upcoming arch
FYI, Xbox 360's Xenos SIMD+scalar architecture is different from Radeon HD 2000's VLIW5 architecture.
Could still be RDNA2 and in order for the AI Accelerators to work in RDNA2, they had to customize it. Which is where the word custom is referring to.If its just using standard RDNA4 AI blocks why do you think he called the machine learning hardware "custom"? im interested in your take
Its one thing to call the GPU itself custom i get that but to refer to a specific hardware block as custom it means is not the same as the standard block seen on the architecture.
Taking into account what you said earlier, im speculating two possibilities
1. Sony wanted to make the AI blocks more robust/performant than what basic RDNA4 offers and asked AMD to increase the number, beef them up etc.
2. Could they repurpose machine learning hardware used on CDNA for the Pro GPU?
There's not enough information on BVH transverse hardware.Notice i did not claim PS4Pro was vega, just that it took a feature (RPM) from it
So you speculate RDNA4 RT could be on par with Ampere?
AMD's RDNA2 presentation omitted the missing BVH transverse flags and early BVH culling hardware support until revealing RDNA2's missing hardware features during RDNA3's presentation.AMD had already publicly talked about RDNA2 supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features (RT/VRS/Mesh Shaders) at that point.
Could still be RDNA2 and in order for the AI Accelerators to work in RDNA2, they had to customize it. Which is where the word custom is referring to.
Which console do you think AMD is referring to here?
AMD AI Solutions
AMD RDNA
The AMD RDNA™ architecture features AI accelerators delivering incredible performance, efficiency, and features to gamers across desktops, laptops, gaming consoles, mobile devices, and the cloud.
It specifically says AI Accelerators, which Xbox Series X doesn't have and is comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores. What console do you know of that has AI Accelerators?Click on the link under "The AMD RDNA™ architecture features AI accelerators delivering incredible performance, efficiency, and features to gamers across desktops, laptops, gaming consoles, mobile devices, and the cloud", it jumps to
"AI Acceleration" is for RDNA 3.
It's dedicated AI units for RDNA 3.
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– Xbox Series X supports Machine Learning for games with DirectML, a component of DirectX. DirectML leverages unprecedented hardware performance in a console, benefiting from over 24 TFLOPS of 16-bit float performance and over 97 TOPS (trillion operations per second) of 4-bit integer performance on Xbox Series X.Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...news.xbox.com
Xbox Series X's RDNA 2-based GPU has INT4 ML support.
Notice my "----------------------------" line.It specifically says AI Accelerators, which Xbox Series X doesn't have and is comparable to Nvidia's Tensor Cores. What console do you know of that has AI Accelerators?
AMD plans to harness the power of AI to transform gaming with its next-gen GPUs
In a recent interview with the Japanese gaming website 4gamer, the AMD execs detailed some of what we can expect from RDNA 4. Naturally, front and center was confirmation that we’ll be seeing the second iteration of Team Red’s AI Accelerator cores (similar to Nvidia’s Tensor cores), which were first introduced in the current-gen RDNA 3 GPUs - such as the excellent Radeon RX 7900 XTX, currently the best AMD graphics card on the market.
Nvidia’s tech is still lightyears ahead of AMD when it comes to AI processes - just look at the RTX 4090 - but these second-gen AI cores should offer a serious step up.