Opera says that Microsoft Agrees to Windows 7 Browser Ballot in Europe

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Firestorm

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http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=15786

Microsoft Agrees to Windows 7 Browser Ballot, Exclusive Details Revealed

Microsoft has long offered one -- and only one -- browser with its market-leading Windows operating system -- Internet Explorer. That inside connection helped it gain over 80 percent of the market at one time, though its lead has now slipped to just below 60 percent of the total browser marketshare. Now, thanks to a 2007 complaint from third-party browser maker Opera and a subsequent investigation by the European Commission (the branch of the European Union that handles business law), that artificial advantage may finally be at an end.

The European Union ruled it was anticompetitive for Microsoft to release Windows 7 without rival browsers to Internet Explorer, which came installed by default. Initially Microsoft opted to release Windows 7 in the EU without IE 8. However, it now has come around and has made a proposal along the lines of what Opera had originally suggested -- a browser balloting scheme.

DailyTech spoke with Opera's Chief Technical Officer Håkon Wium Lie, the man who first proposed the CSS web standard and a pivotal figure at the browser company, about the development. Mr. Lie expressed happiness that his company's browser might finally get a chance to come directly to users with Windows. He states, "This is good news, we think, that Microsoft put this proposal forward. This will give users access to more browsers. It's good news for users. It's good news for browser makers. And it's good news for web standards."

According to Mr. Lie the currently proposal from Microsoft is to present users a ballot screen during Windows 7 installation. Any browser maker with over 0.5 percent Windows browsing marketshare would be eligible to be on the screen, with a maximum of 10 allowed options. This would mean that Opera, Mozilla's Firefox, Google's Chrome, and Apple's Safari would likely be the browsers presented.

Currently Microsoft is proposing that the user choice of a third party browser triggers an automatic download via a link to the company's site, requiring the Windows 7 user to be internet-connected. Opera is a bit concerned about this, but thinks it's better than the former lack of competition. Opera would prefer a "carry" option, with a copy of each third party's browser prepackaged with Windows Mr. Lie states, "A link could work (but) the benefit of the carry (approach) is that you don't need a fast active internet connection."

While the freedom of choice may place a dent in Microsoft's desktop dominance, one sector that it can expect to stay strong is in corporate deployments. One advantage Internet Explorer does have is strong availability of central management tools which save money and time for IT deployments. Inertia is also on its side; most businesses already have IE deployed as their PC browser of choice. On the topic of the business market Mr. Lie concedes, "It's been very hard to break into that market. It's hard for Microsoft itself to break into that market. You have many businesses still using Internet Explorer 6 or 7."

Mr. Lie believes that mobile and console markets are one of the most promising areas, though, for third party vendors like Opera. Opera's Mini and Mobile browsers are very popular on the mobile market at its browsers are also featured on the bestselling Nintendo Wii. Mr. Lie says that the mobile industry is among the "more receptive" markets to free browser competition.

The Microsoft proposal is still in the formative stages and may see changes. The EU and Microsoft must agree to the exact balloting scheme, but at this point both parties have agreed in principal to make a balloting screen happen. This decision to give third parties a chance is good news for Microsoft, users, and the free market says Mr. Lie. He surmises, "We'll see stronger competition and stronger support of standards from this."

I find it funny that they'll have to pack in Apple software with Windows.

I actually think having it point to a download is better than just coming pre-packaged. That way the developers just need to replace the file and the user will always get the most updated version.
 
FrenulumBreve said:
It's reasonable to tell one company to inject other companies software in there?

Their solution is reasonable. As to whether or not theres a problem with Microsoft bundling IE in with Windows it comes down to whether or not its monopolistic behaviour. I don't have any real opinion one way or the other.
 
Stupid. IE is standards compliant now and is no longer trying to use its market position to hinder the ability of alternative platforms to access the web.

High market share is no reason for government interference unless that position is being abused. This is ridiculous, and for the same reason so is the US DOJ investigating Google.
 
msv said:
Why wouldn't it be?

Because it's bullshit that a court can step in and tell a private company to stick competitor software inside?

Instead of Opera crying to the courts, maybe they should market their product better.
 
This is the concept Microsoft sent to the EU

2ytybub.jpg
 
Kibbles said:
Heh, I bet "Internet Explorer" would be bolded with "(Recommended)" by it anyways. :lol

and a prompt when users choose a competing browser:

"Are you sure you don't want to use IE8 with features x, y, and z?"
 
To me, this just sounds like an unncessary fucking headache for consumers.

And I don't know why they even care, anymore. So what if your browser is unpopular? Who gives a shit, anymore? Are you going to charge for your browser? Try to steer consumers to other products with adware in your browser? If so, I don't want it, anyway.
 
FrenulumBreve said:
Because it's bullshit that a court can step in and tell a private company to stick competitor software inside?

Instead of Opera crying to the courts, maybe they should market their product better.

I agree. Does this also apply to Mac?
 
Huh. An interesting solution.

In general, I'm still unhappy about how they can't just include Internet Explorer. I mean, if a ton of people were mad that their chess games, or calculator apps, or whatever, were being overshadowed by Microsoft's, then Windows would come with nothing.

Microsoft's software that comes with Windows is not full-featured, or even that great, Internet Explorer included. Normally, from what I've seen, users realize this and get better programs, but in the case of Internet Explorer, people seem to stick with it.

Even still though... as long as Windows comes with some browser, any browser, I'd be happy.
 
FrenulumBreve said:
Because it's bullshit that a court can step in and tell a private company to stick competitor software inside?

Instead of Opera crying to the courts, maybe they should market their product better.

This is only in the EU, if the company in question doesn't like it, it can take its business elsewhere.
 
there was a time on macs that the only browser was netscape, then microsoft deployed IE on mac years later safari came. it's not that surprising to see safari on windows.
 
Microsoft gets the EU off its back, everyone picks IE at the prompt and nothing changes. Everyone wins!

Firefox managed to get 25% market share without being bundled with anything. Maybe the others should just try harder.
 
louis89 said:
Microsoft gets the EU off its back, everyone picks IE at the prompt and nothing changes. Everyone wins!

Firefox managed to get 25% market share without being bundled with anything. Maybe the others should just try harder.
And Mozilla still joined Opera (along with Google), in this EU complain. Mmmhmm.
 
My point is it's not impossible to achieve significant browser market share without being bundled with Windows.
 
Purkake4 said:
This is only in the EU, if the company in question doesn't like it, it can take its business elsewhere.

I know it's the EU only. Doesn't make the situation any less ridiculous.

I hope they apply this to Apple as well.
 
FrenulumBreve said:
I know it's the EU only. Doesn't make the situation any less ridiculous.

I hope they apply this to Apple as well.

If they managed to sell enough computers to have more than a couple % of the market share, it would.

I'm just happy that someone is at least trying to stop Microsoft's obvious monopoly. Maybe a few more people will get a (somewhat) secure browser as well.
 
I like Chrome's description. "It's a new browser for windows!"

Though really, this could only help chrome cause people will see the google name and be OMG I ONLY USE THE GOOGLE I SHOULD USE THIS!
 
Wasn't the problem that IE cannot be uninstalled from windows??
On the Mac side, you can uninstall Safari even though it comes with it preinstalled.
 
onesvenus said:
Wasn't the problem that IE cannot be uninstalled from windows??
On the Mac side, you can uninstall Safari even though it comes with it preinstalled.

They offered having a Windows distribution for EU that is capable of having IE uninstalled but it was turned down, EU are really being a bunch of douches during this whole ordeal.
 
The EU sends back what they believe it should be, Also add on another fine for having IE being the first 1 offered.
2ytybub.jpg
 
MrHicks said:
what about windows media player?
you can go crazy with this
Every browser install should also have every other browser packed in, and asking the user what browser he really wants to install. Firefox, Opera and Chrome should also offer Bing or Yahoo as search engines, without Google.com being the default one (should be install only). Make it happen EU.
 
Surely when I'm doing a fresh install of Windows 7, I won't have the drivers for my wireless card installed yet, so how am I going to be able to download one of the browsers offered?
 
Why not just not buying Microsoft if you don't want to use their browser as default on your system.

When I set up Macs there are tons of apple programs on the install. For each of those products they should have to offer aleternatives to install.


EU just wants money and is picking on US companys to get it. The usa should start taking them to court.
 
pasta4u said:
Why not just not buying Microsoft if you don't want to use their browser as default on your system.

When I set up Macs there are tons of apple programs on the install. For each of those products they should have to offer aleternatives to install.


EU just wants money and is picking on US companys to get it. The usa should start taking them to court.

The problem is Microsoft's gigantic marketshare, if Apple had anything near that, they would go after them as well.

US has always been welcome to do what ever the hell they want. Exhibit a: Iraq.
 
Purkake4 said:
The problem is Microsoft's gigantic marketshare, if Apple had anything near that, they would go after them as well.

US has always been welcome to do what ever the hell they want. Exhibit a: Iraq.
Is this post as stupid as it sounds, or is it just me?
 
Purkake4 said:
The problem is Microsoft's gigantic marketshare, if Apple had anything near that, they would go after them as well.

US has always been welcome to do what ever the hell they want. Exhibit a: Iraq.


The point is this is a USA based company getting fined by the EU . THe USA should just start fining and imposing rules on EU based companys.

Personaly if your buying a MS OS then you are already aware it comes with MS products on it. Its no diffrent then when you buy an Apple product and you are away it comes with using apple products. The Ipod for instance has a monopoly as large as MS's OS one. You can only use itunes on the product. Why aren't they being fined by the EU ?

You can only buy Apple software and hardware together. Why can't I buy an HP with OSX already installed on it.

I think therei s still far to much bigger things they should be after in the software world than IE8. Its obvious that there are other competitors that are doing just fine market share wise dispite IE8 coming preinstalled.
 
pasta4u said:
The point is this is a USA based company getting fined by the EU . THe USA should just start fining and imposing rules on EU based companys.

Personaly if your buying a MS OS then you are already aware it comes with MS products on it. Its no diffrent then when you buy an Apple product and you are away it comes with using apple products. The Ipod for instance has a monopoly as large as MS's OS one. You can only use itunes on the product. Why aren't they being fined by the EU ?

You can only buy Apple software and hardware together. Why can't I buy an HP with OSX already installed on it.

I think therei s still far to much bigger things they should be after in the software world than IE8. Its obvious that there are other competitors that are doing just fine market share wise dispite IE8 coming preinstalled.

I wouldn't have anything against the US fining EU companies. USA makes the rules on their territory and EU on theirs.

I'd be super happy if Apple got fined as well, but as I said it doesn't have enough market share in the EU, so nobody really cares.
 
Great King Bowser said:
Surely when I'm doing a fresh install of Windows 7, I won't have the drivers for my wireless card installed yet, so how am I going to be able to download one of the browsers offered?

With the agreement, Windows 7 will come with IE installed.

Before the agreement windows 7 was gonna be sans IE, but IE was gonna be offered via windows update.

Yup, you'd be asked if you want it at your first windows update interval...
 
I think it should come with a preloaded version in case of no internet at the moment. Also would like it if Microsoft did it world wide, but thats a bit doubtful.
 
pasta4u said:
The point is this is a USA based company getting fined by the EU . THe USA should just start fining and imposing rules on EU based companys.

Personaly if your buying a MS OS then you are already aware it comes with MS products on it. Its no diffrent then when you buy an Apple product and you are away it comes with using apple products. The Ipod for instance has a monopoly as large as MS's OS one. You can only use itunes on the product. Why aren't they being fined by the EU ?

You can only buy Apple software and hardware together. Why can't I buy an HP with OSX already installed on it.

I think therei s still far to much bigger things they should be after in the software world than IE8. Its obvious that there are other competitors that are doing just fine market share wise dispite IE8 coming preinstalled.

The distinction is that an iPod has equal competitors that you can go out and buy. Buying a Zune, Creative, or whatever makes no difference at all. The fact that iTunes is necessary to run the iPod is irrelevant and shows you have no idea why the EU is so hard on Microsoft.

Microsoft is in the position where a huge amount of software is contingent on their platform. This gives them a competitive edge that is essentially unbeatable. Most businesses are incapable of moving to a different operating system because of infrastructure, and because the software they use relies on the Windows platform.

The EU's point is that Microsoft is in a position where they can use this advantage to leverage their other products. Windows has no alternatives for a lot of people, so preinstalling applications with Windows ensures every end user will use those applications, or at least, give them a very high chance of using them. IE, for example, can't be uninstalled from Windows Vista. This raises a question of why an internet browser would ever be tied to an OS, and whether thats unfair to other browser companies.

The EU thinks it is and this is why its going on. Its a lot more complicated than "Windows apps on Windows, lol EU", its about a failing of the Free Market. I don't have any strong opinion about the IE debacle but I think it is important Microsoft is kept in check.

cartoon_soldier said:
Nobody is going to ask Apple to do the same for Mac OS.

Apple doesn't have a monopoly to the extent Microsoft does, and Safari can be deleted from the OS.
 
shintoki said:
The EU sends back what they believe it should be, Also add on another fine for having IE being the first 1 offered.
2ytybub.jpg
I like the sounds of Browser 6. Sound techy, like Windows 7. SIGN ME UP!
 
TheHeretic said:
Apple doesn't have a monopoly to the extent Microsoft does, and Safari can be deleted from the OS.

Didn't Microsoft offer a distribution where IE could be uninstalled but EU turned it down? That's going beyond keeping Microsoft "in check", that's bordering on douchery.

Also, doesn't Google have a ridiculous market share in Europe?
 
harSon said:
Didn't Microsoft offer a distribution where IE could be uninstalled but EU turned it down? That's going beyond keeping Microsoft "in check", that's bordering on douchery.

Also, doesn't Google have a ridiculous market share in Europe?

I think so. The EU are douches, no disagreement there. They don't like the position that Microsoft is in and want to fuck them. In reality Microsoft has pretty much fallen into where they are now, some anti-competitive behavior aside.

What's best for consumers is to have one OS compatible with all software. What's best for the market is to have a few OS's competing to keep abuse of power in check. Its a problem.
 
What's "best" for any one is, frankly, irrelevant. When governments start fascist-like tendencies of making content decisions for companies, they've certainly crossed a line. This is as bad as telling Disney, because it has a high marketshare, that it must start including trailers in its home DVDs for competing movies. It's fucking ridiculous.
 
The irony here will be that Opera still won't be chosen by anyone, because no one gives a shit about it. So their marketshare will stay infinitesimally small.

Then they'll likely complain to the EU again, whining that no one knows who they are and that Microsoft should advertise their product for them, free of charge. In addition, for every month that Opera's market share remains nonexistent, they'll ask the EU to fine Microsoft a billion Euros.

Ah, the joys of competition. EU style.
 
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