Opera says that Microsoft Agrees to Windows 7 Browser Ballot in Europe
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WickedAngel
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Dooraven said:
Google doesn't show me search options for Yahoo, Bing, Wolfram, and Wikipedia when I go to their site.
WickedAngel
Banned
Fio said:
lol @ people who can't see that this isn't even close to being the Netscape era or situation.
pjberri said:
Opera is a great browser for people who don't need add-ons (Or memory leaks...)
WickedAngel said:
First stop using embarrasing car analogies. There is choice in the car market because no one has a distribution advantage.
Second, if you think we are currently in a fair environment when most PC's access the internet using an OS that has 90% market share you are in serious denial. It is the very definition of unfair environment.
There is everything stopping the ignorant from just choosing a rival product. Just because YOU can do it doesn't mean everyone else can. The law is designed to protect the ignorant from being exploited by a monopoly. The information argument is really very weak.
As has been pointed out to you before, this started a very long time ago. The fact that market share has fluctuated for the last year is enirely irrelevent. IE still enjoys the vast majority of the share, well over 60%.
Microsoft being a monopoly means that they have to offer consumers choice from the beginning. Not after you've had to install IE to access the internet which is what the vast majority of people end up doing.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
lol silly EU
WickedAngel
Banned
There isn't any arguing with people who are too stubborn to objectively view the trend that is taking place in the browser market. Enjoy your delusion.
WickedAngel said:
I'm listening, and I agree.
However, even with a situation as you describe it, there can be anti-competitive behavior.
For example, consider Word Processing software. Because it's included free with virtually every windows system since 95, almost all competition in the market (including Word Perfect, the once reigning king on Windows systems) has been suppressed.
I would argue that this does still constitute an unreasonable monopoly, but that's because Word Processors must have a price, unlike browsers, which are subsidized through a variety of other means. If you're offered a choice between 1) Microsoft Word, which is effectively free and already installed on your computer the day you get it or 2) A competitor's product, which you have to actually seek out, purchase, and then install yourself, I would argue that most people would choose option 1 even if it was unanimously agreed that competitors created better products.
It is specifically the nature of browsers -- that they are very easy to download, and are free -- that erases the barrier of entry that Microsoft has relied on in other markets, where they leveraged their OS monopoly to dominate the marketplace over competitors who could not afford to sell their products for "free," let alone gain an advantage like being installed on the computer at production.
Suitcase Test
Member
Do you mean stuff like in this link:X-Ninji said:
Suitcase Test said:
FrenulumBreve
Banned
pjberri said:
Shut you're whore mouth, opera(the browser) is awesome.
harSon said:
Other browsers are gaining some market share because they are MUCH more better than IE. If IE was a good browser, I really doubt its market share would drop bellow the 95% mark. Bundling IE with Windows is a powerful thing.
And I do think MS has to pay for some unfair practices they did in the past. It's impossible to ignore the fact that, had IE not being bundled with Windows, its market share would be much lower. I've used all IE versions (except IE8) and all versions were bad (IE7 was tolerable) and they were embarrassing when compared with Firefox and Opera, so it was not its quality that made it the dominant browser.
I'm not even going to discuss the fact that IE has set the internet back quite a bit. Ask any webdesigner how much extra effort they had to put into their websites just because of IE's quirks.
I think that's the "browser ballot" solution is good enough to minimize the problem.
TheHeretic said:
Great, so do an anti-trust lawsuit in an industry where that's true. IE has been losing marketshare rapidly over the past few years, it's obvious this isn't a case where smaller companies can't compete.
avaya said:
You are confusing products here. Windows the operating system has a monopoly as the operating system for PCs, but Windows will run any browser which means the market for Windows compatible browsers is completely separate from the market for operating systems (like the market of Wii games vs the market for consoles).
In the Windows compatible browser market, IE has the majority of marketshare but it has nowhere near a monopoly, in fact its marketshare is falling. Neither Opera nor the EU has shown that bundling IE with Windows has made it impossible for other browsers to compete, and it's impossible to do that while they're gaining marketshare. Not only that, but similar bundlings exist, like Safari with OSX or iTunes which is the only music downloading software that can be used on an iPhone, yet Microsoft is the only company being targeted. This is ludicrous.
Tacitus_ said:
To most people, Word is effectively free -- that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's bundled in as part of the system you buy from Dell or Gateway or HP. It's bundled in as a courtesy for large corporate orders, as well.
This is like saying Windows is expensive. Technically you're correct, but 95% of all PCs sold by any major distributor come with Windows included as part of the price. In effect, it's viewed as"free" to the consumer. For example, let's imagine a PC that sells for 1,100 from Dell. People don't view this as a PC that costs 1,000 dollars, and also includes Windows Vista for 100 dollars more: they view it as an 1,100 dollar PC.
Another example would be something like Power Steering as a feature on Cars. At this point, finding a car that does not come with Power Steering as a built in function is nearly impossible. However, Power Steering still costs money to implement (let's say, uh, 40 dollars). People don't view a 20,000 dollar car purchase as a 19,960 dollar car with a 40 dollar additional Power Steering purchase: they view it as a 20,000 dollar car. In effect, this is how Microsoft Windows and the Office Suite are viewed.
WickedAngel said:
Yeah this is the reason why the EU's entire case against Microsoft is nothing more than a big steaming pile of shit and a money grab into Microsoft's pockets.
Microsoft has never locked a person out from being able to download a different browser. EVER. And I don't want to hear any bullshit about how people are too stupid to type in mozilla.com or opera.com into their web browser and then click 'download'. If you're too stupid to do that.. you don't need a fucking computer to start with.
Again, all you have to do is look at Firefox and how they've stolen a good chunk of Microsoft's browser marketshare. And they did it without the help of the EU or any other government. They did it based on "gasp" free-market principles.
lutherjw said:
Please. Opera didn't do this because they wanted people to have a choice. They did it because they're bitter that they're not the choice people are making. Because people are choosing other browsers instead. Like Firefox, which is doing incredibly well in Europe. And between them, Safari, Chrome and I.E, Opera still won't stand a monkeys chance.
Your arguement still makes no sense. If this whole thing is only happening because Opera wants publicity, why would Google and Firefox join the suit?Dipswitch said:
If, however, Opera stated that they should be the only browser included, I'd be tempted to agree with you. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't, but rather insisted that consumers be able to make an informed choice...
lutherjw said:
Because it presented a chance to kick a competitor while they were down and gain free publicity? And this whole deal was started by Opera - Mozilla and Google just jumped in after the fact.
Sorry, but you're exceedingly naive if you think Opera did this with consumers in mind. They did this because Mozilla is kicking their (And Microsoft's) ass in Europe and their brand awareness is virtually non-existent. Putting their name on a ballot screen at least lets people know they exist, and they need all the help they can get. And again, it won't make a scrap of difference for them in the end.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
TheOddOne said:
Apple doesn't have a monopoly.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Great King Bowser said:
how will you download anything without drivers? this makes no sense.
solution: download drivers before installing windows 7.. save on disk.. yay!
Just out of curiosity, what browser do you use? If you say IE, I can make fun of you because it's nowhere near standards-compliant, and if you say Firefox, I can make fun of you BECAUSE THEY'RE PART OF THE EXACT SAME SUIT.Dipswitch said:
Wait, let me guess, Firefox is doing it for the consumers and Opera is just doing it for publicity?
It's like arguing with a 2-year-old.
SMH at the spate of pro-corporation conservatives.
Despite all the advances made by other web browsers in the last 10 years, do you know what web browser still has the dominant share of the web market?
Internet Explorer.
How many of you here use Internet Explorer as your web browser of choice?
I suspect very few of you.
Do you know why there's this disconnect? Because you people are generally tech informed.
But most computer users aren't; they use what the fuck ever is there and they don't give a shit enough to inform themselves of better alternatives.
Things haven't really changed for MS since the IE6 days; they're still putting out sub standard web browsers that they package in with their OSes.
The thing that has changed is that the competition has adapted, gotten smarter, and people have become more aware of other browsers.
However, that doesn't mean that IE hasn't had a large deleterious effect on browsers in general; with their poor standards compliance and their dominating market share, ultimately a lot of web developers are still forced to cater for it.
Even though IE has gotten better with recent iterations, they're still not perfect. Moreover, do you really want web developers developing for the standards of one particular browser again, or would you prefer that they develop to the open web standards?
Because the practical affect here is that your web browsing experience is hamstrung by some shitty web browser that you don't use.
Its frustrating that so many of you are so completely blinded by your inane jingoistic loyalty to some american corporation that you can't even see the negative impact that company has made on your consumer experiences through the monopolistic actions that they've been guilty of in the past and continue to perpetuate.
Yes, not having calculator, paint, notepad, et al would be inconvenient; but these programs don't determine or affect a set of critical standards that one of the foundation of the world's infrastructure and economy (i.e. the internet) uses.
Despite all the advances made by other web browsers in the last 10 years, do you know what web browser still has the dominant share of the web market?
Internet Explorer.
How many of you here use Internet Explorer as your web browser of choice?
I suspect very few of you.
Do you know why there's this disconnect? Because you people are generally tech informed.
But most computer users aren't; they use what the fuck ever is there and they don't give a shit enough to inform themselves of better alternatives.
Things haven't really changed for MS since the IE6 days; they're still putting out sub standard web browsers that they package in with their OSes.
The thing that has changed is that the competition has adapted, gotten smarter, and people have become more aware of other browsers.
However, that doesn't mean that IE hasn't had a large deleterious effect on browsers in general; with their poor standards compliance and their dominating market share, ultimately a lot of web developers are still forced to cater for it.
Even though IE has gotten better with recent iterations, they're still not perfect. Moreover, do you really want web developers developing for the standards of one particular browser again, or would you prefer that they develop to the open web standards?
Because the practical affect here is that your web browsing experience is hamstrung by some shitty web browser that you don't use.
Its frustrating that so many of you are so completely blinded by your inane jingoistic loyalty to some american corporation that you can't even see the negative impact that company has made on your consumer experiences through the monopolistic actions that they've been guilty of in the past and continue to perpetuate.
Yes, not having calculator, paint, notepad, et al would be inconvenient; but these programs don't determine or affect a set of critical standards that one of the foundation of the world's infrastructure and economy (i.e. the internet) uses.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
harSon said:
When you buy an iPod, you have to install iTunes separately. When you buy Windows, IE is already on there. It's not really the same situation.
You continue to use the product and support the company, after you stated that: "it presented a chance to kick a competitor while they were down and gain free publicity". Yet, you act as if Opera is the worst company in the history of mankind for filing the anti-trust suit.Dipswitch said:
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
harSon said:
That's just not true.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
didnt the EU come after apple for itunes? or what is drm?
i thought i heard about that before
google will be "the evil corp" 10 years from now, just wait
i thought i heard about that before
google will be "the evil corp" 10 years from now, just wait
lutherjw said:
I have zero respect for Opera because instead of competing the old fashioned way, like Mozilla did (In a very successful manner I might add), Opera decided to file an anti-trust lawsuit in order to generate publicity for their product. A product which was and is drowning in a sea of able competitors.
Canadian Telecom companies say "Hi." Doesn't always work for the best.JKBii said:
Double standards at it's finest. The best is that Microsoft's dominant product has to include Apple software now, whereas Apple's dominant handheld gets free reign.VALIS said:
Because Opera started all of this a few years ago. It isn't Rocket Science. Google and Mozilla only joined the suit a couple months ago as bandwagoners.lutherjw said:
I'm actually a little stunned that citizens across the EU aren't more scared of the EU's tactics. If the EU can make such a content decision here, where is the line drawn? Where does it stop? You might even like the ability of choice when you install Windows 7 and still see this is not how it should've come about.
If the EU hates this so much, why don't they fund a company to make an actual competing operating system altogether? Why not pump millions into Opera to make an operating system? Yeah, the world would still think you're as foolish as you are now, but at least you'll be doing it in a capitalist way (the EU is for some form of capitalism nowadays, right?).
If the EU hates this so much, why don't they fund a company to make an actual competing operating system altogether? Why not pump millions into Opera to make an operating system? Yeah, the world would still think you're as foolish as you are now, but at least you'll be doing it in a capitalist way (the EU is for some form of capitalism nowadays, right?).
Wow, I never followed this whole thing between Microsoft and the EU.
This is fucked up.
i'm not the type to side on big corporation's side, especially Microsoft. But...They gotta work to get attention. I never saw an ad that turned me onto Opera, Chrome, or Mozilla.
People like you did.
if nobody said anything, i would have never known about any of em. I guess thats fixed now eh? Fucking A.
This is fucked up.
i'm not the type to side on big corporation's side, especially Microsoft. But...They gotta work to get attention. I never saw an ad that turned me onto Opera, Chrome, or Mozilla.
People like you did.
if nobody said anything, i would have never known about any of em. I guess thats fixed now eh? Fucking A.
quadriplegicjon said:
Technically speaking it is, at least within the debate we're having. If we're assuming that the average customer is not capable of downloading an alternative browser on Windows, then how is the IPod and Itunes any different of a story? The IPod has over 70% of the MP3 market share, and considering the "difficulty" in finding an alternative means of getting music to your IPod, it's safe to say that the overwhelming majority of that 70% market share is using ITunes. Seeing as Itunes is much more then a way for one to organize music (Music purchases, movie purchases, game purchases, etc.), Apple is given an "unfair advantage".
How is that different from Windows and Internet Explorer?
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