Opera says that Microsoft Agrees to Windows 7 Browser Ballot in Europe

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loosus said:
What's "best" for any one is, frankly, irrelevant. When governments start fascist-like tendencies of making content decisions for companies, they've certainly crossed a line. This is as bad as telling Disney, because it has a high marketshare, that it must start including trailers in its home DVDs for competing movies. It's fucking ridiculous.
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Its only irrelevant in a purely free market, which you don't live in. If all internet companies in a country corroborated to increase its price tenfold knowing consumers would have no alternative, that would be valid in a country with no government intervention. Consumers would lose, which is why these institutions exist.
 
I like this, it means i can just tick the Opera box when i install it, instead of having to go to their site and do it (damn laziness).
Good of Microsoft to do this i say, the people mainly using IE now will continue to use it, and for us other users of Opera, FF, etc. Will make life a little bit easier on W7 installation.
 
msie.png
 
*applauses EU*

Protecting the consumer and keeping MS in check, I like it.

TheHeretic said:
Its only irrelevant in a purely free market, which you don't live in. If all internet companies in a country corroborated to increase its price tenfold knowing consumers would have no alternative, that would be valid in a country with no government intervention. Consumers would lose, which is why these institutions exist.
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Pretty much!
 
loosus said:
What's "best" for any one is, frankly, irrelevant. When governments start fascist-like tendencies of making content decisions for companies, they've certainly crossed a line. This is as bad as telling Disney, because it has a high marketshare, that it must start including trailers in its home DVDs for competing movies. It's fucking ridiculous.
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As I said before, MS must play by EU's rules if it want to conduct business there, plain and simple. If you don't like what EU is doing in it's own territory, tough.

It's like when you go to a foreign country, you must abide by their laws or suffer the consequences. No one cares if you agree with the laws.
 
loosus said:
What's "best" for any one is, frankly, irrelevant. When governments start fascist-like tendencies of making content decisions for companies, they've certainly crossed a line. This is as bad as telling Disney, because it has a high marketshare, that it must start including trailers in its home DVDs for competing movies. It's fucking ridiculous.
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That's a pretty terrible analogy.

The content in this case is the web, not the web browser. Microsoft has a history of using its bundling of a web browser that works as they specify as a way of forcing other browsers (and thus operating systems) out of the market. That's what most people don't realize. If the majority of web users use IE, and IE works in this specified way, then Microsoft can push others out. And it's not just a free browser that's at stake. Linux users don't have IE, nor do Mac users. They can never have a chance at taking OS marketshare, because the web is already established and works with one only.

At least, that's how it was in the past. Now, I think the EU just wants to make sure it doesn't happen again. Admittedly, they've been doing a pretty poor job so far.

Besides, it's only fascist-like if you're a supporter of a 100% free market. Which is a fine ideal to believe in, but is certainly not the reality right now.
 
At least get your straw-man arguments straight, fellars. One of the hallmarks of fascism is corporatism, where select companies work in tandem with the state. What you're thinking of is communism, where only the state dictates the economy.

Anyway, Microsoft had its chance back in 2004 to come off easy like they did with the US anti-trust case. Negotiations broke down, they were found in violation of EU law and they then made the mistake of showing contempt and delaying implementation of its obligations. Microsoft has been paying for their fuck-ups ever since. The only reason shareholders haven't been more on their case about this is because they can delude Americans that the big, bad, communist/fascist EU is out to get them.

That said, this proposed ballot looks like a step in the right direction.
 
Scipius said:
At least get your straw-man arguments straight, fellars. One of the hallmarks of fascism is corporatism, where select companies work in tandem with the state. What you're thinking of is communism, where only the state dictates the economy.
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A little bit like Disney when their copyrights run out you mean? :lol
 
Maybe I'm fucking stupid, but I've never understood the problem with Microsoft bundling a Microsoft browser with a Microsoft operating system.

Anti-competitive? It's hardly Microsoft's fault that so many companies choose Windows.

It's like telling Ford they can't put their own steroes in their cars because it's not fair on the other stereo manufacturers.

Makes absolutely no sense at all.
 
jorma said:
Why does america hate laws that try to protect the consumer so much?
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Because we're somehow tech-savvy enough that we don't need the government to tell us how to download a web browser?
 
cjelly said:
Maybe I'm fucking stupid, but I've never understood the problem with Microsoft bundling a Microsoft browser with a Microsoft operating system.

Anti-competitive? It's hardly Microsoft's fault that so many companies choose Windows.

It's like telling Ford they can't put their own steroes in their cars because it's not fair on the other stereo manufacturers.

Makes absolutely no sense at all.
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Yes, because Ford has market dominance all over EU. It's the only car brand seen on the streets of Europe. God knows why they have financial problems because they are so dominant.
 
Dipswitch said:
The irony here will be that Opera still won't be chosen by anyone, because no one gives a shit about it. So their marketshare will stay infinitesimally small.

Then they'll likely complain to the EU again, whining that no one knows who they are and that Microsoft should advertise their product for them, free of charge. In addition, for every month that Opera's market share remains nonexistent, they'll ask the EU to fine Microsoft a billion Euros.

Ah, the joys of competition. EU style.
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hey, maybe this way people will click it accidentally
 
avaya said:
Fixed for you.

EU <3.
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Young people have no idea how Microsoft have historically wiped out every competitor through it's OS monopoly. If not for the various governments' intervention, we wouldn't be seeing a browser market revival and be stuck with IE forever.
 
What I like about the ECC is that they are not afraid to lay the smackdown on anyone and they will go for massive fines.

I find it hilarious Intel are claiming some sort of human rights violation with their fine, one that they are more than deserving of.
 
This has always been bullshit.

What about the Windows calculator?
 
m0dus said:
Because we're somehow tech-savvy enough that we don't need the government to tell us how to download a web browser?
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I dont think there's a difference in your tech-savviness really =) But some EU vs US browser democraphic stats would be interesting. Just to see if the EU measures are working.
 
onesvenus said:
Wasn't the problem that IE cannot be uninstalled from windows??
On the Mac side, you can uninstall Safari even though it comes with it preinstalled.
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Yeah, that was the DoJ's monopoly shit back in the 90's. IE couldn't be uninstalled (since like KDE/Konqueor) since Explorer/Iexplorer were one in the same.

m0dus said:
Because we're somehow tech-savvy enough that we don't need the government to tell us how to download a web browser?
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:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol Yeah, that's why American businesses/50 somethings will only run IE even if you decide to tell them "You know, IE isn't really secure for your internet usage, try Firefox for a bit. It's customizable/more secure than IE."

I bet the vast majority of computer users in America never install an optional browser even if people tell them to try something else over IE. Which is the problem.
 
jorma said:
Yes, because Ford has market dominance all over EU. It's the only car brand seen on the streets of Europe. God knows why they have financial problems because they are so dominant.
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So if the product becomes popular and dominant, the original practice becomes automatically illegal? That sounds exceptionally dumb.
 
The solution is perfect. It gives consumers the choice at inception. It will increase marketshare for Firefox, Safari and Chrome...Opera not so much.

IE has been a block to progress for a long time, a block to progress that utilised the Windows monopoly to reach the level of marketshare it has.
 
Purkake4 said:
You DO know that you can't have one without the other, right?
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Yes, I know you can't have shitty laws without shitting on businesses.

By the way, how is this "protecting" consumers anyways? If you decided to plunk down hundreds of dollars for some software, how about you do some research as to what comes bundled. Shit aint that difficult. This isn't like food products that can kill you that need regulations in terms of their contents.
 
TheHeretic said:
Its only irrelevant in a purely free market, which you don't live in. If all internet companies in a country corroborated to increase its price tenfold knowing consumers would have no alternative, that would be valid in a country with no government intervention. Consumers would lose, which is why these institutions exist.
Click to expand...

Actually that would never happen because it's collusion which is illegal and even if a bunch of companies tried it they'd get taken out by a small company. Some town in the midwest got mad about the prices Time Warner was charging and set up a high speed solution that was faster and better.

In any case, this isn't really a big deal either way. The marketshare split won't change significantly and even if it does, Microsoft makes most of its money from Windows itself, browser control is just an added bonus that they can use to better steer the path of the development community. The EU is going to have to find something else to fine them over but I don't imagine that will be hard.
 
Microsoft are paying for their past anti-competitive behavior. They pissed off the EU and will be jumping through hoops if they want to sell their OS here for some years to come.

Intel looks to be repeating Microsoft's mistakes and will likely suffer them same consequences.

Neither company get any sympathy for me as i'm aware of their shameful behavior in regards to OLPC and other cheap compact computers.
 
WickedAngel said:
Neglecting to give away your competitors' offerings in place of your own is not anti-competitive, it's business. Refusing to give people the option to install competing software, however, is (Which is why Microsoft was deserving of that hit they took in the 90s).
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The question was how can something done by a company with minority market share differ in consequence than one with majority market share. The difference is one creates barriers to entry when the other probably doesn't.

The EU's case and the nature of the lawsuit stated bundling IE created a distribution advantage that was unfair to other web browsers, which lead to web designers and developers focusing on IE, giving them even more of an advantage.

JKBii said:
Actually that would never happen because it's collusion which is illegal and even if a bunch of companies tried it they'd get taken out by a small company. Some town in the midwest got mad about the prices Time Warner was charging and set up a high speed solution that was faster and better.
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The whole point is that its illegal, and smaller companies aren't necessarily capable of entering all markets.
 
WickedAngel said:
Neglecting to give away your competitors' offerings in place of your own is not anti-competitive, it's business. Refusing to give people the option to install competing software, however, is (Which is why Microsoft was deserving of that hit they took in the 90s).
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When you are a monopoly the rules of the game change, it is no longer just business.
 
avaya said:
When you are a monopoly the rules of the game change, it is no longer just business.
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Internet Explorer isn't Windows and doesn't hold the same share of the respective market that it is competing for.

Mozilla has gained significant ground on Microsoft without these absurd fines and provisions set forth by the EU. Why is it logical to assume that their success won't continue?
 
cjelly said:
Maybe I'm fucking stupid, but I've never understood the problem with Microsoft bundling a Microsoft browser with a Microsoft operating system.

Anti-competitive? It's hardly Microsoft's fault that so many companies choose Windows.
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Yes it is. Microsoft has been a very naughty boy in the past. There's no denying they have a monopoly.

Even though, this whole IE thing feels kinda sketchy. I do appreciate the EU caring about the consumers (if that's what they're really doing). I think what they should do is have Microsoft seperate IE from Windows completely (like they've already been doing, IIRC) and let the OEM's decide which browser to stick on.

It's so annoying that I'm quite passionate about things like this (software) yet 99% of people out there, understandably, just don't give a crap...


LOL @ the prompts comments at the start of the thread btw! :lol :lol
 
WickedAngel said:
Neglecting to give away your competitors' offerings in place of your own is not anti-competitive, it's business. Refusing to give people the option to install competing software, however, is (Which is why Microsoft was deserving of that hit they took in the 90s).
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Unless you have a dominant position. In wich case you have "a special responsibility not to allow your conduct to impair competition on the common market". So yes, you ARE expected to behave differently if you have a dominant position on the market.

EU antitrust laws are different from US. You dont have to deal with it, but MS does.
 
jorma said:
Unless you have a dominant position. In wich case you have "a special responsibility not to allow your conduct to impair competition on the common market". So yes, you ARE expected to behave differently if you have a dominant position on the market.

EU antitrust laws are different from US. You dont have to deal with it, but MS does.
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Microsoft's actions have not impeded the browser market as of late. This isn't a case of Microsoft making it hard to install third-party browsers. Again, Mozilla is gaining ground quite rapidly without the help of the EU.
 
It's amazing shit like this goes on yet every month or so I have to go trawling through tech forums and blogs all around the internet for the latest instructions/hacks on how to get my iPhone to work with anything but motherfucking iTunes.
 
WickedAngel said:
Microsoft's actions have not impeded the browser market as of late. This isn't a case of Microsoft making it hard to install third-party browsers. Again, Mozilla is gaining ground quite rapidly without the help of the EU.
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Are they? Or are they gaining ground quite rapidly with the help of the EU?
I know MS killed off the competition (netscape) by starting to bundle their browser with the OS to begin with. Maybe, just maybe the EU verdict helped fund some recent innovations in the browser market because they felt they could at least gain a foothold on the EU markets?

I wish there were some good browser democraphics split into regions. Are there? =)
 
VALIS said:
It's amazing shit like this goes on yet every month or so I have to go trawling through tech forums and blogs all around the internet for the latest instructions/hacks on how to get my iPhone to work with anything but motherfucking iTunes.
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They really should jump on Apple next. iTunes is a real piece of crap on PC.
 
jorma said:
Are they? Or are they gaining ground quite rapidly with the help of the EU?
I know MS killed off the competition (netscape) by starting to bundle their browser with the OS to begin with. Maybe, just maybe the EU verdict helped fund some recent innovations in the browser market because they felt they could at least gain a foothold on the EU markets?

I wish there were some good browser democraphics split into regions. Are there? =)
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The EU has done nothing that would help Mozilla. How would Firefox be more popular because of measures that won't have an effect until October?

I'm not sure if anything does that (Measures geographic distribution of browsers). I would imagine that people simply use IE because they're ignorant to their options but I don't believe that Microsoft is responsible for consumer ignorance or that it will make a big difference anyways (The name "Internet Explorer" is self-defining...people will recognize it over Firefox or Opera).
 
WickedAngel said:
Internet Explorer isn't Windows and doesn't hold the same share of the respective market that it is competing for.

Mozilla has gained significant ground on Microsoft without these absurd fines and provisions set forth by the EU. Why is it logical to assume that their success won't continue?
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Your first point can not be serious. IE has at times enjoyed upwards of 80% share. Mozilla gaining share does not excuse Microsoft's actions, in a fair environment Mozilla's share could be much higher than it is now. That is the point.

Microsoft's record puts it beyond a reasonable doubt that their browser strategy is designed to use Windows leverage to the maximum extent possible to establish their product as number one in the marketplace.
 
xXCHAOSXx said:
It would be funny if MS stopped Selling windows OS's to EU altogether that would show em:lol
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Yea. MS shareholders does not believe in funny though. They like their profits.
 
avaya said:
Your first point can not be serious. IE has at times enjoyed upwards of 80% share. Mozilla gaining share does not excuse Microsoft's actions, in a fair environment Mozilla's share could be much higher than it is now. That is the point.

Microsoft's record puts it beyond a reasonable doubt that their browser strategy is designed to use Windows leverage to the maximum extent possible to establish their product as number one in the marketplace.
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Your first point can't be serious. You seriously think that Internet Explorer should be treated as a monopoly based on historical data? If that's the case, we should be pursuing Ford just to make sure their market control doesn't get out of hand.

The environment we have is a fair environment. There is absolutely nothing stopping consumers from installing Firefox; I should know as I do it on a daily basis for every single computer I work on. It should not be the responsibility of Microsoft to advertise competing software.
 
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