In terms of campaign promises, yes. In terms of parliamentary voting record, no. PVV may talk left as the VVD loves to point out, but they vote even more right than the VVD. All you can count on the PVV for to do to your social safety net is to eviscerate it.
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OT | Dutch General Election 2017 | Exit Poll: Major underperformance for Wilders
- Thread starter CrunchyB
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In terms of campaign promises, yes. In terms of parliamentary voting record, no. PVV may talk left as the VVD loves to point out, but they vote even more right than the VVD. All you can count on the PVV for to do to your social safety net is to eviscerate it.
Regginator
Member
I think I'm one of the few (or even the only one?) here on GAF that voted DENK. I hope they can get 4 seats, despite having polled 2/3 for months now.
As for the rest, hoping the best for GroenLinks, SP and D66. And the worst for PVV, jeej!
As for the rest, hoping the best for GroenLinks, SP and D66. And the worst for PVV, jeej!
That seems like a pretty safe bet, yes.
Let's hope you're one of few people who actually vote for a party like that.
PjotrStroganov
Member
Lol. Kuzu really rubs me the wrong way.
Regginator
Member
Any particular reason? (besides the Erdogan stuff, I'm not Turkish so I couldn't care less) Seeing as it's a left-wing party and all.
Lapidus' Beard
Member
I just went and voted for PvdD.
Pakoe
Member
DENK is basically the opposite of PVV.
Regginator
Member
Me neither, not the biggest fan. He definitely lost me at the "doctors let immigrants die on purpose". I also think there's much to improve in his debate skills. I went for Azarkan.
Regginator
Member
You make it sound like that's a bad thing?
But in all seriousness, I know what you're referring to. And I understand it's kinda populism as well, even though it's left wing. But I admire their fire and drive. For a small party like theirs (two seats), they seem to be on the forefront as much as the mid-size parties. A little bit of controversy to spark debate doesn't hurt anybody in my opinion.
I mean, the way they try to destroy the legitimacy of parliament, of the media, their putting pressure on mosques etc. etc.
...aren't they anti LGBT?
Regginator
Member
I agree with the second point, not a fan of their "trap er niet in" stuff, kinda awkward to be honest. But I don't think I understand your first point, how are they destroying the legitimacy of the parliament?
Also, as for your last point, that has been largely refuted. The Council of Moroccan Mosques in the Netherlands (have I translated that well?) already commented on the backlash DENK received and nuanced their comments, stating it was put out of context etc.
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No, they aren't anti LGBT.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
BriareosGAF
Member
Watching this very closely from the US, quite curious how it all turns out. Had a chat with a developer from the Netherlands at a dinner at GDC and he was very casually dismissive of Wilders' chances, will be interesting to see how all the chips fall.
whyamihere
Banned
I'm still thinking about the woman stepping on ballots in the box.
Regginator
Member
I wonder why. When I think "PVV voter" I, maybe ignorantly, think of older people living in places that don't even have a lot of these immigrants/Muslims/etc. people to begin with, and that all they hear about these subgroups is on the news/media, which they disapprove or even irrationally fear.
But young people...
Okay; so I can't say I'm the most informed about this, because I kinda expected myself to already be out of the country at this point. I genuinely haven't been able to keep up with Dutch news because I'm moving very soon.
I've heard accusations of DENK not being too supportive of LGBT rights, and that Kuzu apparently made some rather negative statements, along with not wanting to denounce homophobia properly.
I'm guessing these are false, then?
Sorry for the accusation, I should've probably done more research myself. (not that I would vote for them either way, since they don't appeal to me in general, but)
It's impossible for a single party to get the simple majority you need to rule alone. Wilders could very well become the biggest party, but no one wants to work with him, so he can't get the coalition he needs to rule.
Well for one thing they have the gall to deny the Armenian genocide. That should make it a non-starter for pretty much everyone. I wouldn't call it 'a little bit of controversy', I'd call it absolutely idiotic, hurtful, dangerous and shameful.
They're not 'kinda' populist, they're just as populist as the PVV, and just as thoughtless. Preying on fear, hatred and division.
If you wanted to vote against the retoric and ideals of the PVV, Denk really was the wrong choice honestly.
BriareosGAF
Member
Yes, I didn't mean to imply some 'first past the post' system, just whether he would in any way feature in the required coalition for a government to form.
Regginator
Member
I mean, DENK's raison d'être is that everyone in the Netherlands has to be treated equally, regardless of ethnicity, gender, religion, etc., so I'm sure that also includes LGBT.
Also, Kuzu (despite not really liking the guy) cancelled the NOS debate while calling Jan Roos a xenophobe and homophobe. So... yeah.
He at least I didn't vote for them. GL, myself. My father will disown me if he finds out. Though in his eyes it isn't as bad as my last vote (D66).
Voted D66 (despite Pechthold...)!
Interesting. Actually two of my friends who have always voted PVV (for the last 10 years), this year vote VVD and D66. They told me that they just got tired of Wilders' shouting. And I am from Almere, go figure...
Interesting. Actually two of my friends who have always voted PVV (for the last 10 years), this year vote VVD and D66. They told me that they just got tired of Wilders' shouting. And I am from Almere, go figure...
I know someone who voted for FVD, I just shook my head. He was probably better off voting for the PVV, but then again what do I know, I voted for the pirate party after all.
Why? FvD has a better program because the PVV doesn't have one. Moreover voting for new parties is a risk but with that mindset things will never change. I voted PP in the past but to no avail. No regrets though.
Regginator
Member
I didn't vote DENK because I agree with all their points, not by a long shot. Some call it the "Turkenpartij/Turkish party" and coincidentally those are mostly points I disagree with, maybe because I'm not Turkish, like the pro-Erdogan stance and the denial of the Armenian genocide.
The main reason I voted for them was basically everything else, the idea that everyone is equal in this country. That someone who was born here, who went to school here, who works here and gets married here, can be seen as Dutch, despite not having a traditional Dutch sounding name or a pale skin.
Some observations. There was still a small line at 19:30. This makes me happy because I live in an urban hipster neighborhood that's ridiculously slanted towards D66/Groenlinks.
That humongous voting ballot was ludicrous. I wrestled to get it open and had to force it down the letterbox opening.
That humongous voting ballot was ludicrous. I wrestled to get it open and had to force it down the letterbox opening.
So how is Uzu supposed to defend the minorities in our nation if he does not even want to debate/counter with a racist politician? With the PVV, our tweede kamer will have plenty of those. He will have to prove he is capable of doing his job.
Furthermore, I think DENK has said some pretty questionable things and alternative facts is never, ever a good thing given these people have to steer our country.
Yeah, my god. When I thought I had folded it open, I had to fold it once more...
Sure, and most of the other parties also promote that, without any genocide denial involved. I'm not following your argument at all. Even as far as just equal rights go, Denk is far from the ideal party.
Think you should've gone with Art1kel if that's your angle, at least that way you don't import Erdogan, but okay.
BrassDragon
Member
Vote cast! The volunteers at polling station are having a good day because of the high turn-out.
I hope the results won't disappoint the rest of the world.
I hope the results won't disappoint the rest of the world.
It was a huge surprise as I was certain he'd vote PVV. Nothing wrong with voting for new or small parties.
Yeah. I mean it's the entire reason Sylvana quit DENK, because it was just the long arm of Erdogan. Still confused why she didn't figure that out from the start, but oh well.
Also, party programs are nice and all, but it's better to listen what the partymembers themselves actually say in public.
Napalm_Frank
Member
So around when in euro time do we start to get the results? Sorry if this has been asked a thousand times.
It's interesting that people seem to worry about 4 party coalitions, such things have been normal in Finland for long ass time. Actually we currently have our own populist party in government and it's the smallest coalition in a while (3). Guess Netherlands just need to adapt.
It's interesting that people seem to worry about 4 party coalitions, such things have been normal in Finland for long ass time. Actually we currently have our own populist party in government and it's the smallest coalition in a while (3). Guess Netherlands just need to adapt.
Regginator
Member
The timing wasn't right. We've had the whole diplomatic crisis between our country and Turkey, the Turkish demonstrations in Rotterdam, rioting here and there, debates about "Dutch identity", etc. etc. You'd be pretty naive if you think Roos wouldn't have nagged Kuzu's head off by continuously hammer him on this off-topic subject, instead of what's more important, like education, healthcare, etc.
Politically, he could have lost more than what he could win if he went to debate Roos.
Prophet Steve
Member
I'm pretty happy with the way people around me votes. After some doubts between Groenlinks and D66 I ended up with Kees Verhoeven from D66.
I tried to fold it open as little as I needed to cast my vote as I didn't want to fold it back in.
Around 11 AM some indications and I think around 2 AM the definitive results.
I tried to fold it open as little as I needed to cast my vote as I didn't want to fold it back in.
Around 11 AM some indications and I think around 2 AM the definitive results.
The Citizen Kane of Games
Member
Now high turnout seems like a bad thing!
dragonelite
Member
Sounds more like the point Asscher was trying to make yesterday against Wilders.
The ballot was almost bigger than the booth itself. Really silly.
Depends on where most of the high turnout is occuring. If it's in the big cities wilders is doomed. If it's in more rural areas or small towns it may benefit wilders.
It's not off-topic. I would think it's very important if a Dutch representative is sympathetic to a foreign dictator.
YourMaster
Member
It is easy to dismiss him, but he addresses legitimate concerns that many people agree with. Many more than actually vote for him, because he is lacking solutions. This is not the US, where issues with migrants are mostly made up.
Large quantities of Muslims have entered the country, and there have been no successful attempts to integrate them. Many have kept horrible attitudes against women, gay people, jews and mostly non-muslims in general, have poor chances in the job market so they stay poor, flock to the same areas and are very heavily over represented in all the violent-crime statistics. They are on average also a lot younger than native Dutch people, so young people run into them much more often to experience this clash of cultures. The immigrant population is large enough, and the problems serious enough that there are probably hardly any dutch people who don't know anybody who's had some negative personal experiences.
Unfortunately a long time to not 'feed into racism' the traditional parties decided to simply ignore any issues and do nothing to try to integrate newcomers into society, prepare them for regular employment and stop ghetto-forming. Even during this election cycle on of the party leaders expressed that people are just convincing each other of problems where there are none.
This is not the way to go forward, ignoring problems does not make them go away. People should be offered a choice of either 'integrating the immigrants into society' or 'forcing the immigrants to comply'. Right now they have the choice between 'pretending nothing is wrong' or 'forcing the immigrants to comply', which to many people simply isn't a choice.
Old people are generally more pragmatic, will see that Wilders' option doesn't really help and decide to stick to their old parties. Young people are more idealistic and willing to give something a go.
He should have showed up, that's what leaders do, nothing to do with strategy nor timing. The fact that he refused to criticize Erdogan nor his flag waving fans, shows his true colors. Was he afraid his house in Turkey would be sized?
At least I would have understood if you voted for Sylvana.
Wind's Howling
Member
Yes. Amsterdam for that matter.
Regginator
Member
True, which is why I had a selection of four parties with GroenLinks, DENK, SP and D66 being my top 4, but in the end I think the other three parties didn't have the "fire" that DENK has. Their Chamber Questions (Kamervragen?) have had much more spark and a little bit of controversy that I'm looking for.
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