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|OT| French Presidential Elect 2017 - La France est toujours insoumise; Le Pen loses
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BaronLundi
Member
Can only speak for myself, but I'm not talking about minorities in general by making this statement. I'm talking about immigrants and refugees who live from one 3-month permit to another (a lot do, including children who go to school) let alone people who entered the country illegally. They would be expelled, this is no hyperbole.
Totally agree with the rest of your post by the way.
OT but I had someone with the same username as you on another board a few years ago. Is it a common ID or have you been dwelling on videogame-themed websites since 2005 or so ?
French minorities, probably not. But as said above there are plenty of people who would actually be concerned by that.
And there are even more people that couldn't afford to stay here if Le Pen got through (read her program about citizenship, allocations familiales, foreign workers or school for example, also take a look at what FN mayors have done with charities such as Restos du Coeur, etc.).
Red Arremer
Member
So it's preferable to opt for something that is going to actively try and make the situation objectively worse? Even if the Status Quo is bad, it's preferable to the degradation of the situation into an even more terrible state.
Don't "please" him. Here's a nugget of hard truth for you:
Nobody gives a shit why you don't vote, and your non-voting is irrelevant, regardless of why you're doing it. The same goes for voting white. I made a post in this very thread explaining this to someone who voted for Melenchon and was considering not voting, so I'll quote it for you:
So yes. It's irrelevant if you're a lazy piece of garbage or want to have a "moral victory of the left ideals". If you don't vote for Macron, you're making it easier for Le Pen to win.
"It's bad, so who cares if it gets worse?" How is this sound logic for you?
Not to mention that being more welcoming to refugees in particular has been one of the important points of Macron's campaign since the beginning, so it's really disingenuous to paint him as some kind of hawk who's going to screw all the foreigners.
I remember when this thread was all about Mélenchon voters asking people to make "subtle distinctions" to understand Mélenchon's support for the Venezualian government or his position in regard to Europe. Where are the subtle distinctions now?
BaronLundi
Member
You probably all seen it already but, yeah, she still got it.
https://twitter.com/SpeechByKonbini/status/859463107176955904
https://twitter.com/SpeechByKonbini/status/859463107176955904
Alx
Member
Good video. They shoud have quoted "je ne vous invite pas à un geste d'enthousiasme, mais à un acte de raison" as a title for the video. Much more appropriate and sensible.
I don't think others are using my ID so that's probably me, I'm using the same everywhere basically. Which board was it?
Yes I totally agree, I've read it a bit are these are the worst thing to do. And it is frightening to see that it can already be done at the city level, they don't even need LePen to be elected to start doing harm.
Man I wish we had more politicians like Taubira...
I hadn't so thanks for posting it. Man I love Taubira.
How terrible of him to ask for the government to apply the program they were elected for lol.
Also it was 3 years not 5
Well not really, or rather you're oversimplifying and trying to ignore the points I raised?
If you're thinking short term then Yes
If you're thinking beyond this election (where the outcome is 99% decided) then No, he has one million of electors he's trying to pull from FN's grasp in the long term which is a respectable thing to do.
As for Fillon it's kinda the same thing, the whole last part of his campain was dedicated to not only try to qualify for the 2nd round (which is well, normal for a candidate) but also doing so with Le Pen (concentrating his critics against Macron) because it was the only opponent he had any chance of winning against.
He also has one third (!) of his electors who are going to vote for Le Pen nevertheless, which illustrates how terrible him and his party were for the past few years trying to defeat the FN on ideology.
While true, the numbers you used just to prove your case are over exaggerated, with more realistic numbers this is what you get
Your point still stands by far, but it would be imo more effective conveying so while not trying to be rude, we are in front of keyboards writing long ass posts that takes time in what isn't our native language (for most of us at least, otherwise it's likely we may have a harder time to understand each other because of different cultural/political background/knowledge) so let's use that time more wisely if we want to have a civil discussion and convince anyone (and especially someone on the opposite side) that our train of thought is legitimate
Here you're just venting and acting on emotions, which ironically is exactly what was said about Melenchon's voters who don't want to go for Macron at the 2nd round, and a clash of contradicting emotions will lead us nowhere
I saw that yesterday yes.
She's probably the best thing we got from PS for these last 5 years (which ironically isn't her original party), and Hamon the "best" candidate from a qualitative point of view.
Yet look at where the two of them stand and how they're seen by most, this is just beyond me T_T
Mario & co's night club, or MACNC. We got a lot of people from nintendo France's boards at the time.
Edit : Reuters asked French pollsters their opinion about sunday and all seemed to agree that it's basically over, even if Macron performs poorly during the debate.
http://fr.reuters.com/article/topNews/idFRKBN17Z0BB-OFRTP?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true
Palette Swap
Member
She's great.
You don't need to agree with her on everything, I don't always, but she's a national treasure and it's always worth listening to her.
She's gone through so much shit over the last few years in particular (let's not pretend she wasn't very specifically targeted).
Alx
Member
I can understand their confidence on the trends and behaviours they observe... but the only way they could be wrong, is by changing such behaviour when you say "it's over" too loud, and too many people hear it as "no need to go vote, then".
(I don't think it will happen, but you never know).
It's fortunate we expect some bad weather this week-end, so fewer people will be tempted to "go fishing".
(I don't think it will happen, but you never know).
It's fortunate we expect some bad weather this week-end, so fewer people will be tempted to "go fishing".
Yeah. The second round result was very predictable for the last few months or so since Macron's rise. It's not that shocking that pollsters are saying that the race is technically over now. He was always going to win in a landslide against le pen.The question was how large of a landslide. It's looking like it will be a 18 to 21 point win for macron at this point. I do hope people still vote.As long as le pen ends up 2nd place for worst performance by a presidential candidate in france since 1965 I'm happy.
Palette Swap
Member
That Russian story seems to be gaining traction.
I like how they were very literally getting their Ukraine talking points from Moscow:
http://m.france24.com/fr/20170502-n...ne-ukraine-mediapart-schaffhauser-russ?ref=tw
I like how they were very literally getting their Ukraine talking points from Moscow:
http://m.france24.com/fr/20170502-n...ne-ukraine-mediapart-schaffhauser-russ?ref=tw
The media probably won't push a narrative that ends the suspense though.I can understand their confidence on the trends and behaviours they observe... but the only way they could be wrong, is by changing such behaviour when you say "it's over" too loud, and too many people hear it as "no need to go vote, then".
(I don't think it will happen, but you never know).
It's fortunate we expect some bad weather this week-end, so fewer people will be tempted to "go fishing".
On another note let's take a minute to enjoy the salty tears rolling on Valeurs Actuelles' face
Red Arremer
Member
Sure. I used exaggeration and oversimplification, but I felt that putting something into very easy to understand terms makes other people understand more complex things. Obviously in reality, things are more complex than I presented, but for the sake of the argument, I was using the simplest possible numbers. The gist of it is that it gets the point across.
First of all, English is not my native language either, and second, I am not going out of my way to be rude, but I also won't sugarcoat things. I am giving the poster I quoted an honest and frank explanation. Personally, I doubt they will even read that response, and if they do, perhaps being frank helps more than the coddling approach that has been done. That's how I prefer things, myself, which is why I'm delivering them as such.
I'm not really venting, nor acting on emotions. If you knew me at all, you would be aware that when I approach a discussion, no matter my language, I tend to not get emotional, otherwise the discussion would already be for naught. I presented an argument, and I used frank and clear language. Nothing about that is emotional or venting.
Yep, totally agree
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Mediapart release documents about the collaboration between Lafarge and ISIS (we already knew that of course) but the deal was made with the supervision of a FN prominent member.
OT: Oh of course! I think it was my first internet board, I was just a kid back then. Nice to meet you (again)
haha, yes you were !OT: Oh of course! I think it was my first internet board, I was just a kid back then. Nice to meet you (again)
... god I'm old (I was Phanto, the admin at the time)
Well it does sound "rude" (at least to me) to use these words
I would never ever use the french equivalents speaking to someone through written means.
"Tout le monde s'en branle de pourquoi tu ne votes pas"
"Donc oui cela n'a aucune importance si tu n'es qu'une pauvre merde feignante ou..."
American may found that ok, or it's also ok in oral context with someone you're very familiar with but even in that case that falls into getting emotional for me.
I don't write like I speak (because I've got more time to think about what I say
), but I see what you mean, not everyone may though especially the ones getting emotional about not voting for Macron which was my original intended message.Red Arremer
Member
You misunderstood the "lazy piece of garbage" bit. I meant that people who don't vote because they're too lazy to go voting are lazy pieces of garbage. I was not implying that the poster I quoted was one. Unless of course, they won't go voting because they're too lazy to do so. I was trying to say that it doesn't matter whether people don't vote because they don't care to, or because they have "values". The outcome is exactly the same.
As for "nobody gives a shit" - it's harsh, but true. *shrug* I see no issue with it.
As for "nobody gives a shit" - it's harsh, but true. *shrug* I see no issue with it.
Oooooh boy this seems juicy
She's amazing.
De la prise d'otages, par Frédéric Lordon
Pretty good piece on how the injunction of responsability that has been ordered to the left.
There are a few good quotes but I wouldn't like them to be taken out of the more global reasoning that is in the paper. The last part (appendix), in pink, is also quite interesting about the individual nature of the vote.
I've already talked about his proposals on the matter in this thread, based on what Amnesty wrote about them and what I've heard in the local association where I volunteer. To sum up, he has the same top-down approach that the governement already has, with little knowledge of what are the real needs and risks that the refugees are trapped into (including, and especially, in the administrative maze). So yeah, it'll continue to be the same. His proposals are really thin and most likely are coming directly from adminsitrative offices that work for the governement (given how they arew written and who writes his notes de synthèse on the matter). I also don't like how he has been saying for two years now that they are essentially "good for business" (the limits of his humanism).
I'm also not reassured by looking at how his centrists friends that run big cities are dealing with refugees (and minorities) policies. What I've seen and heard where I live indicates that they don't care about homeless people or refugees and actually do more harm than good (Gérard Collomb I am looking at you).
Thank you for standing up on that. I won't answer to insults and agressive posts that don't even take the time to understand my point (yep, I never said that he won't vote, I was just defending the opinion of those who chose not to vote or to vote blanc because I don't think that point of view was rightly represented here)
Pretty good piece on how the injunction of responsability that has been ordered to the left.
There are a few good quotes but I wouldn't like them to be taken out of the more global reasoning that is in the paper. The last part (appendix), in pink, is also quite interesting about the individual nature of the vote.
I've already talked about his proposals on the matter in this thread, based on what Amnesty wrote about them and what I've heard in the local association where I volunteer. To sum up, he has the same top-down approach that the governement already has, with little knowledge of what are the real needs and risks that the refugees are trapped into (including, and especially, in the administrative maze). So yeah, it'll continue to be the same. His proposals are really thin and most likely are coming directly from adminsitrative offices that work for the governement (given how they arew written and who writes his notes de synthèse on the matter). I also don't like how he has been saying for two years now that they are essentially "good for business" (the limits of his humanism).
I'm also not reassured by looking at how his centrists friends that run big cities are dealing with refugees (and minorities) policies. What I've seen and heard where I live indicates that they don't care about homeless people or refugees and actually do more harm than good (Gérard Collomb I am looking at you).
inb4 "But Le Pen would be worse!!!"
Yes, I know.
Yes, I know.
Thank you for standing up on that. I won't answer to insults and agressive posts that don't even take the time to understand my point (yep, I never said that he won't vote, I was just defending the opinion of those who chose not to vote or to vote blanc because I don't think that point of view was rightly represented here)
Honest question : is Lordon worth reading for someone who disagrees with him ? Because his posts are really, really fucking long and he seems stuck in a messianic complex that makes his texts even more tedious to read.
I'm asking because his opinion on fact-checking looked like a colossal waste of space for anyone who doesn't follow his revolutionary leftist point of view. I know he's a respected researcher, but still.
I'm asking because his opinion on fact-checking looked like a colossal waste of space for anyone who doesn't follow his revolutionary leftist point of view. I know he's a respected researcher, but still.
Red Arremer
Member
I understand your point. I think most people understand your point. The thing we're trying to tell you is that your point doesn't matter because there's no distinction between not voting out of laziness, not voting because you're not physically capable to, not voting because of not liking either candidate, not voting out of protest, or not voting because muh values.
They all amount to the same: a non-vote.
And a non-vote only helps to misrepresent the will of the population even more. Again: Non-voters do nothing but skew the numbers, no matter how morally just their intentions are.
You want things to get better for immigrants? Vote for Macron now so Le Pen definitely doesn't come to power, and then vote for a party standing for them in the parliamentary elections. I seriously don't understand wanting to indirectly support a candidate that wants to make matters objectively worse.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Yes. You can disagree with his stances but you'll always learn something from him.
gutter_trash
Banned
any live streams for the debate?
BFMTV shouldn't be geo locked.
Maybe France 24.
OpinionWay made a poll that tries to see what could be the results of the législatives...but their methodology is based on an hypothesis that is not the best imho and the campaign (which is very important) didn't even start, so beware
If you have to read someone that speaks for the radical left, that's him because he's brilliant in the way he develops his argument (he's a philosopher so he knows a lot about dialectics). His French is probably the best too (Scrabble world champion here). Although he likes to fire shots at everyone so it might be irritating to read sometimes, but that's part of the game.
Some newspapers discovered him last year with Nuit Debout and tried to picture him as some kind of gourou but that just seems like a cheap anathema. He never stood up as a leader, always refused to be one, and few people wanted him to be one. Mainstream medias don't understand horizontal movements, it doesn't exist in their frame of reference.
If you have to read someone that speaks for the radical left, that's him because he's brilliant in the way he develops his argument (he's a philosopher so he knows a lot about dialectics). His French is probably the best too (Scrabble world champion here). Although he likes to fire shots at everyone so it might be irritating to read sometimes, but that's part of the game.
Some newspapers discovered him last year with Nuit Debout and tried to picture him as some kind of gourou but that just seems like a cheap anathema. He never stood up as a leader, always refused to be one, and few people wanted him to be one. Mainstream medias don't understand horizontal movements, it doesn't exist in their frame of reference.
gutter_trash
Banned
Palette Swap
Member
There's a pretty good Askolovitch article on Slate on the banker bullshit.
http://m.slate.fr/story/144936/macron-banque
http://m.slate.fr/story/144936/macron-banque
Yeah, I expect very high levels of fantasy. Not that it matters to voters.
I can't even picture fact checking in a debate with Le Pen. She lies every two sentences or so, it's too much work.
EDIT: wow ok, what a start to this debate.
*grumbles*
yeah, his agressive dialectics (sorry for the word, I stared at the keyboard for 5 minutes trying to find a more neutral one - not as good at scrabble obviously) are the most off-putting side of his character to me.
Plus I'm a middle ground kind of guy on technocratic subjects, not so much on social ones...
Blackpuppy
Member
Great job LePen... let's just ignore all questions and just attack your adversary. Pfff
Well the FN would never agree to fact checking, it would be to damaging for Le Pen.
Classical FN tactic.
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