Imagine a Melanchon-LePen second round, EU is lose/lose. Ugh.
Guess we can kiss the EU goodbye at that point then.
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|OT| French Presidential Elect 2017 - La France est toujours insoumise; Le Pen loses
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Imagine a Melanchon-LePen second round, EU is lose/lose. Ugh.
Guess we can kiss the EU goodbye at that point then.
Melenchon has also been hurting Le Pen a bit to lately.
And I still don't get why articles like this one keep on saying that macron will be the perfect opponent for le pen.
http://www.politico.eu/article/why-...ng-for-emmanuel-macron-french-elections-2017/
Macron is a pretty clean oppponent even though he has ties to the banking industry, to the current socialist government and is the polar opposite to le pen on immigration, the EU and terrorism. Fillon would literally be the perfect opponent for le pen. He is the french Hilary despite being way further to the right then hilary was. He a corrupt neoliberal that a lot of people despise way more then Macron. Macron is neliberal kinda but he at least is fresh and new compared to the other candidates especially le pen and fillon.All Macron needs to do in the second round is literally show how clean he is compared to someone like le pen and how he will work for the people that will elect him instead of against them like Le Pen.
Hamon's base is dying considering nobody can support a candidate with (currently) 8% .
Hamon lost 4% and Melanchon gained 4%, you don't have to be a genius to realize this trend will only get amplified as we get closer to the election.
I'm a Hamon supporter but at this point it's lost, so while my morals are with him, I might have to vote Melanchon to avoid Lepen Macron and Fillon.
Plus Melanchon wants to use referendums, so ultimately, it will be up to the french people to decide the fate of EU.
Nah, all the candidates have ceilings on 1st round and that's even more true for "extreme" candidates. There's a reason why Hamon and him didn't join forces.
That's also why I don't see him winning against any of the other 3. Not to mention the lack of discipline from left wing voters for candidates that aren't tailored to their wishes (see vallsistes and hamonistes)
Did you see Melanchon at 19% two weeks ago ? ...
Isn't LePen also wanting a referendum? Only DLF is saying that they would straight up quit.
Both of them are going to go through a referendum if they decide to quit the EU. And then again Melenchon is going to renegociate the treaties first and make the people vote on it. The only candidate who's going for a hard exit is Asselineau, and we all know that wll not happen in our current reality.
The arguments are understandable, it's a great way for her to play her strengths, and beware, because in a potential 1v1 second round debate, she could do wonders. I mean, as terrible as she is, she is good, so don't be overconfident.
But she lost a lot of momentum recently, and she's not going int the last two weeks with a good dynamic. Poutou really hurt her on the last debate, Recent events in Syria don't play well with her foreign policy too.
So with a good "Front Republicain" anyone of the three should beat her (except if Fillon find himself in another scandal, again).
Wait, Melenchon wants to renegotiate the treaties, and if that fails then leave? I'm confused.
Speaking of, what is EU support like these days?
Palette Swap
Member
This election is crazy. With Mélenchon surging like this, I honestly think any two of the four major candidates could be in the run-off. If you factor in undecideds an expected low turnout, and smaller candidates, its basically chaos.
We're going on a vacation right after voting in the first round, seeing that election night from another European country is going to be weird (or depressing depending on how it goes).
We're going on a vacation right after voting in the first round, seeing that election night from another European country is going to be weird (or depressing depending on how it goes).
And Asselineau. He called out Le Pen on it during the debate.
That's pretty much it. Either the EU somehow coalesces around his vision or he pulls a Frexit. He's pretty upfront about it.
Since the beginning. (I know, crazy, the media reported only the "we quit"second part, and not the first)
"En cas d'accord, le résultat des négociations sera soumis à référendum au peuple français qui décidera souverainement de sa participation à l'Union européenne refondée ou de la sortie"
It's complicated. I think a lot of people agree that we need to stay in, but a lot want some changes. If you add the % of all the candidates that want out or want a renegociation, we're past 50%.
Him trying to unilaterally negotiate with the EU isn't really how the EU is set up, though.
Also what you're trying to say is if a referendum is held, over 50% would want out? Pity.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Mélenchon isn't against the EU, he is for a better EU.
I think it would be funny if voters had to write the name of their candidate on the ballot by hand and Mélenchon lose because everyone spells his name wrong.
I think it would be funny if voters had to write the name of their candidate on the ballot by hand and Mélenchon lose because everyone spells his name wrong.
That's probably not how it's going to play out though. He would be looking from support from others countries on different issues. So far the status quo is maintained because no one can go against France and Germany. Greece couldn't, but they were alone. So it's about finding allies, I have no idea how it would work.
But let's be honest, eveything is so fucked up right now, I don't think anyone know what to expect.
I don't think so, I think it would be close. But in the case of a referendum, there would be another campaign and I think the remain camp learned a few things with the Brexit.
Also I don't think Mélenchon would support a Frexit out of the blue in that case (especially if it comes from LePen). Hamon wants a second parliament for the euro zone so he's pushing for some change too, but he's not for a frexit either.
I'm in the same camp, I still believe in EU but a better EU, this one will die eventually and it really need to.
I'd hope he'd at least want free movement, because getting border checkpoints back after decades of the EEA and EU would be insane.
Also what second parliament would that be? They sorta have 3 already in the council, commission and parliament.
Also if this EU does fail there won't be a second one without a war. Countries don't give up sovereignty out of the blue.
I think the thing that hurt hilary is that she was perceived as corrupt and she did some things that can be looked as corrupt. Both Macron and Melenchon are pretty clean and can beat le pen possibly really easily Macron can be compared to hilary, but he's a completely different person. I don't think Le Pen will do that well in a 1 vs 1 debate especially if Macron studies her weaknesses really hard and exploits them.People have to remember that Le Pen if Macron gets to the second round won't be facing a carbon copy of hilary.
In 2002, but it doesn't work as well if you get two extremes in the second round.
I'm concerned by Mélenchon's rise. I would love for Fillon to finish as low as possible just to hammer home the point that what he did is not just wrong but stupid, but I'm getting increasingly worried about the possibility of a Mélenchon-Le Pen second round. The center needs to hold.
I have quite a few left wing friends, some supporting Hamon and a lot more supporting Mélenchon (at least, for the ones who talk openly about Macron on Facebook), and I'm seeing them sharing a lot of anti-Macron stuff, both legitimate and hyperbolic/fake. What is up with the #ToutSaufMacron shit? I don't get it. (to clarify, I perfectly understand Macron not being your favorite candidate, but I don't understand him being your least favorite).
Edit: regarding EU membership, don't we need a constitutional amendment to leave the EU? Even if a referendum passes, it's not a done deal. Of course, we should learn from Cameron's stupidity and avoid the whole mess in the first place. The EU is the most important issue to me this election, considering how the US has decided to forfeit global leadership, so any candidate that supports weakening it has lost my vote. Doesn't matter if the kids think you're cool because of holograms and videogames, Europe and peace is more important.
Macron for many people on the left will just lead to an even stronger FN in five years by pursuing the same failing politics we saw in the last few years of Hollande, and Sarkozy previously.
It is the same recipe that has weakened the UMP, and the PS leading to the rise of the far right and its normalization as it was seen as the only true alternative to samey politics. Macron en est le paroxysme.
I recommend watching Lordon's recent conference at le Théâtre du rond point to understand the intellectual process behind this apparent disgust with Macron from the people on the left: https://youtu.be/73v1i6Ca4h4. Mind you, given the choice between Macron & Lepen, most would still get out and vote for the former, lots would just not bother and only a very few would opt for the far right.
But how is Macron potentially leading people to the FN in five years worse than five years of the FN now?
I recommend watching the conference I linked and looking at the little addendum above.
The idea is that the FN is not strong enough to win in the other elections and that there is also enough disgust at the FN right now for large social pressure to happen if they ever win, thus limiting a FN presidency realistic options. Meanwhile a restructuring of the left would undeniably happen causing socialists and social democrats to split, clearing the way for a very obvious alternative to everything that has been tried, in the following presidentials. If Macron wins and if his politics fail just as much as Hollande & Sarko previously then that strengthens the FN's position a lot which might not only lead to a sweep in every election but also a depressed society that would just let the FN do whatever they want for lack of a better alternative.
Let me stress again that in a Macron vs Lepen second round scenario, most left voters would still get out and vote Macron reluctantly, lots also will just not bother and a few would vote Lepen. This is still much better than what your average right voter would do in a Mélenchon vs Lepen scenario I believe.
That is if the FN doesn't go back into irrelevancy or implode after this election because of infighting since a lot of people within the FN don't like Marine Le Pen or her deputy.They may get pissed off at her if she does worse then expected in the second round. Also, people have forgotten that trump has been doing damage since November. to far right movements all over the place. The FN could easily be damaged permanently by this. It's possibly an even more charismatic and slightly more left wing independent candidate challenges Macron in 2022 and manages to win against him instead of the FN winning that election.
What about Fillon though? Wouldn't a Fillon presidency pretty much do the same?
Cause I'm tempted to do something I usually don't do, as desperate times call for desperate measures: voting for Macron during the premier tour as a strategic choice. Not because I love him, but because he has the highest chance of beating Le Pen if she makes it to the second tour. Fillon is same old same old, Mélenchon is risky because he's the other extreme, and Hamon doesn't have a chance anyway.
By the way I hate that polls exist. They're the reason people think like this in the first place. If we had no idea such and such candidates were at X%, we would be more inclined to vote for who we like instead of whoever we think is the safest bet.
harriet the spy
Member
It's because those labels are becoming increasingly meaningless in face of globalization. We need different abstractions than left / right.
Regarding polls, I see them as a necessary evil (with our current system anyways). You need to know how the electorate is coalescing to not waste your vote on someone who won't have a chance.
The solution is not to get rid of polling, but to switch to instant run off (vote alternatif) IMO.
Thanks for the link, I'll watch when I get home. From what you posted though, it sounds a lot like "acceleration theory" from the #AnyoneButHillary crowd on the left last November. It only works when you don't have anything to lose personally from fascists getting access to power (personally I think we all have something to lose from that, so I don't think it ever works, nevermind the amorality of fucking over others when you think something doesn't affect you).
The solution is not to get rid of polling, but to switch to instant run off (vote alternatif) IMO.
Thanks for the link, I'll watch when I get home. From what you posted though, it sounds a lot like "acceleration theory" from the #AnyoneButHillary crowd on the left last November. It only works when you don't have anything to lose personally from fascists getting access to power (personally I think we all have something to lose from that, so I don't think it ever works, nevermind the amorality of fucking over others when you think something doesn't affect you).
I think these people are pushing mainly to establish the fact that an alternative to Fillon, Lepen and Macron from the left is both possible & realistic... establish that as a fact in the mind of the common people. If you watched Ruquier's show when he had Mélenchon on recently, he kept repeating how he had no chance of winning, almost violently. To the point that he accused him of filling up the audience with people from his party when applauses were heard because he was that much in disbelief that people could actually like him that much. The idea that a candidate from the left of the left or the real left (one can call it whatever he wants) can't realistically win this election has been anchored in people's minds for so long that equally violent strategies are required to push against it. This explains why Macron is targeted so much (and rightfully so in my opinion).
"Hey look this is what Macron really is and these are the dangers that come with him winning, Mélenchon is on a good dynamic and he represents a better alternative for the people that consider themselves leftist, if you thought about voting "utile" for Macron in first round, vote Mélenchon instead!"
There is no doubt in my mind that they would never call to vote for Lepen in a Macron vs Lepen second round scenario except maybe for a crazy here and there, but there's also no doubt that this will deter a certain number of people from going out and voting Macron in that second round scenario. I don't think these people are in sufficient numbers for it to matter yet though. All in all, right now, Mélenchon's side are in a winning mindset, they want him in the second round and they're focusing on that.
Personally, although I don't agree with the anything but Macron slogan, I really think a new, more equal Europe is needed and I don't see Europe in its current shape being able to uphold peace for long, we already see a lot of tension between many countries (Greece vs Germany comes to mind obviously). That's why I'm hoping for a Mélenchon win. I don't see a path for a different Europe with the other main candidates. Macron seems happy with it, and the same for Fillon. And don't get me started on racist Le Pen...
Yeah I really think it's a push back against the idea that Macron is the only "realistic" option for the people from the left that was hammered over and over in the media for so long.
We are going to see a Mélenchon vs Lepen second round scenario in the polls soon I have no doubt about that, maybe that will help clear things up a bit on who stands where exactly. As always with polls though, it is best to look at dynamics so hopefully we get a few of those before the first round.
It is very hard to predict what will happen in the future I agree. Les Républicains were not far from a mutiny against Fillon either and le PS is in shambles. On the other hand, Macron's strategy for the legistlative elections is still not clear. Interesting times are ahead for sure...
No, but I would have said it was more likely than him winning
still careful about my predictions thoughAbout EU, the problem with him is that all of his program is "we'll renegotiate or leave". Which is nothing at all. It's all based on the idea that he'll be a better negotiator than Hollande just because he'll put a gun against his head. As far as I'm concerned, that's as believable as Trump promising the wall will be paid by Mexico or leavers saying brexit will profit everyone in the UK.
So after everyone in the EU sends him back to Paris with his hopes and dreams, who the fuck knows what happens. Maybe he'll turn into a Hollande bis and manage the country like a good boy with a ruined credibility and half his promises ending up undoable because they would explode the deficit. Maybe he'll want to exit EU and turn us into Venezuela. Needless to say, both cases would kill the left for a long, long time.
I don't think you could be more caricatural than that.
Changing the EU is also a way for the social democrats to resorbe the surge of the far right. You'll be surprise at how many people want some changes, and if they obtain it, would be less likely to turn to people like Le Pen. They feel fucked by the EU, Macron will not change that. No one say it's a done deal, but if you never try, nothing happen. Hollande was pretty happy with the situation, that's probably why he did not renegociate anything.
But everything since 2005 has been built on our leaders not respecting the people will. If you're elected on that basis, it gives leverage.
And again, don't underestimate the interests of other european countries. Italy just banned Uber, I can see them pushing for a renegociation of the treaties too because you don't just kill the champion of liberalism out of the blue. Spain, Greece, Portugal, these add up and could want something out of it.
Maybe you should learn a thing or two about bolivarianism, and study the history of Venezuela before drawing such stupid comparison.
Everytime you people just throw 'Venezuela" like it is the ultimate argument. But Mélenchon is no Chavez, and 2017 France is not 1999 Venezuela.
Changing the EU is also a way for the social democrats to resorbe the surge of the far right. You'll be surprise at how many people want some changes, and if they obtain it, would be less likely to turn to people like Le Pen. They feel fucked by the EU, Macron will not change that. No one say it's a done deal, but if you never try, nothing happen. Hollande was pretty happy with the situation, that's probably why he did not renegociate anything.
But everything since 2005 has been built on our leaders not respecting the people will. If you're elected on that basis, it gives leverage.
And again, don't underestimate the interests of other european countries. Italy just banned Uber, I can see them pushing for a renegociation of the treaties too because you don't just kill the champion of liberalism out of the blue. Spain, Greece, Portugal, these add up and could want something out of it.
Maybe you should learn a thing or two about bolivarianism, and study the history of Venezuela before drawing such stupid comparison.
Everytime you people just throw 'Venezuela" like it is the ultimate argument. But Mélenchon is no Chavez, and 2017 France is not 1999 Venezuela.
Alx
Member
There may be many ways to improve in EU, but "give me what I want or I quit" is not negociating, it's blackmailing. Especially when "I quit" basically means "I'll destroy Europe". And there's no way the other countries will straight up accept all of France's conditions for no reason, even if he represented the voice of the French population, he wouldn't be the one of the EU population. Adding Spain, Italy or Greece to the equation wouldn't help much either, since those are even more dépendent on Europe.
If anything, Mélenchon's plan would be fine if he had a real plan B to offer (although apparently plan B either never exists or never works in politics). Like "make the EU I want or I'll build a better EU on my own". Except that since it's obviously not possible, he can only say "make things better or I'll make them worse".
Renegociation was in his 2012 program. There's a distance between "a lot of people are unhappy" and "we'll get every other country on board to renegociate the treaties", because that's what we need : the other countries. Not just Germany. At this point we only have a handful of mediterranean countries with us. Eastern Europe had to make brutal reforms to join the EU and it's quite sure they'll send us to fuck off if a far-left french dude ask them to change things.
As a reminder, France is that country with high unemployment and debt that likes to give lessons to everyone about how it should be done. Maybe that's not entirely true for us, but try to convince people abroad.
The Venezuela line wouldn't work if he hadn't consistently supported Chavez and Maduro. At that point I'm not sure if he knows that these guys ruined the country or if he's just blaming it on the CIA.
I don't know what's so hard to understand. He's looking to renegociate. It's a negociation, nothing else, so of course not everything will be accepted.
Then, he comes back and ask the citizens if they're happy with the changes or if they want to leave.
If you put on the table that once everything is said and done, if it's not enough, the french people may chose to leave, it's leverage.
Seriously?
I think he knows the state in which Venezuela is.
I do agree with you, his stance looks suspicious, but that's a big communication problem, and some misplaced loyalty towards the historical left.
Someone once asked him why he was praising some things in Cuba, since it was run by a dictator. His answer was that, he knows that Castro is a dictator, and since everyone knows, since everyone talks about that, he chose to focus on what good was done.
But with everything in politics, there is no place for nuance, it's black or white.
Alx
Member
So in short exactly what Cameron did with Brexit. You can't pretend he doesn't know where it's going...
The idea that Mélenchon will magically threaten Europe into accepting all his conditions is both absurd and dangerous. It was literally not even a year ago that Britain tried the same gambit (with the absolute opposite end-goal no less) and fell flat on it's face, but this time it's going to go swimmingly because we're France?
It's perfectly fine to vote for Mélenchon because you don't like the current EU, but don't lie to yourself that he will change it to become exactly the way you want. He will either destroy it or merely weaken it, he's certainly not going to completely remodel it, some of his ideas are complete non-starters that go against the core principles of the EU (the only clear and indisputable principle around which Europe has been created is anti-protectionism).
So if you want to see Europe fails (or if you don't care), by all means vote for Mélenchon. But please don't trick yourself into believing that he will change Europe, not even Italy or Spain are on this train. There is only one way to change Europe, and it's through slow consensus building with all the partners; the way it's been for 60 years.
I'm sorry but that's not nuance, that's just bullshit. What if Fillon started praising Pinochet for Chile's economic strength and every time someone mentioned the state sanctioned torture and political murders he'd go "Everybody knows Pinochet was a murderer, I'm just trying to focus on the good parts here". You'd go apeshit and you'd be right.
It's perfectly fine to vote for Mélenchon because you don't like the current EU, but don't lie to yourself that he will change it to become exactly the way you want. He will either destroy it or merely weaken it, he's certainly not going to completely remodel it, some of his ideas are complete non-starters that go against the core principles of the EU (the only clear and indisputable principle around which Europe has been created is anti-protectionism).
So if you want to see Europe fails (or if you don't care), by all means vote for Mélenchon. But please don't trick yourself into believing that he will change Europe, not even Italy or Spain are on this train. There is only one way to change Europe, and it's through slow consensus building with all the partners; the way it's been for 60 years.
I'm sorry but that's not nuance, that's just bullshit. What if Fillon started praising Pinochet for Chile's economic strength and every time someone mentioned the state sanctioned torture and political murders he'd go "Everybody knows Pinochet was a murderer, I'm just trying to focus on the good parts here". You'd go apeshit and you'd be right.
So what's up with the argument "things won't change because Germany"? That's a weird double standard.
Oh, thank you, I didn't knew that.
Come on, I'm not saying that, Europe is never going to be exactly what I want to be. More than that, I don't agree with everything that my candidate propose (yeah, i know, surprise!).
So please don't lecture me on that.
Alx said:
Is someone here capable of nuance or what? I know it's reassuring to compare every situation when you can, but reality is far more complex than "It's exactly like Brexit".
EDIT :
No, since as I recall, Mélenchon always condemned that.
Alx
Member
Cameron asked for specific changes from the EU
Submitted the results of that negociation in a "take it or leave EU" referendum
Referendum rejected the changes and voted for an exit.
Replace Cameron with Mélenchon and it's exactly what you described above. I mean, I guess the result of the referendum may turn out different, but when you follow the same path you commonly end up in the same place.
Germany? Try the netherlands, Poland, Hungary, the Baltic countries, the EU scandinavian countries (being social-democrats doesn't mean being for protectionism and hard socialism), Austria etc etc... What's with the left fantasy that all of Europe is on board for a socialist Europe except for the damn Germans? If anything eastern Europe is a lot more liberal than the germans.
Sometimes two things are just really similar in every meaningful way, this is one of those cases. This is the second time in two posts that your response to an argument is just to shout "nuance!" without explaining what you mean by it, maybe you should start considering if confirmation bias is not playing a part here.
So:
A different country (not using £ this time too),
Not asking for the same changes.
With obviously not the same negociation results.
Into a referendum with a population that just witnessed Brexit.
Exactly the same thing. You should bet right now, you're pretty sure to win that one.
Obviously Mélenchon condemns Pinochet and murder, I'm not sure you get what I was trying to say?
The negotiation results can only end the same way, because it's exactly the same method: trying to blackmail the UE into renouncing one of it's core principles (anti-protectionism instead of freedom of movement this time). The only difference is that anti-protectionism has been at the core of the European project from the very beginning, before even freedom of movement.
So the "negociation" is doomed to fail. I guess that the referendum could give a different result than Brexit, but so what? You still blackmailed and weakened the EU for nothing. And if you lose the referendum it's over for everyone, after two generations of efforts by all europeans.
My bad, my point was, he always condemned that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure if you ask him about Maduro, he would have a thing or two to say about human rights and the respect of democracy. I mean, no one in their right man could stand for that.
But what I'm saying exactly is that you can applause a revolution, the efforts to push for socialism, and recognize their failures and condemn the dictatorship which resulted.
So I kind of disagree with that because I believe that Europe is doomed to fail and is slowly killing itself. It pushes for ultra liberalism that I believe (again) will fuck up the poor, who have already too much on their plate. Europe is not solving problems right know, and at this rate, is not looking to try anytime soon.
No I'm not even trying to convince you of anything (we're on the fucking internet). All I'm saying is that I think we can't continue on this path, and I'm willing to take that risk, and I'm well aware of the different outcomes.
And also, it seems I have a lot more faith than you in our ability to make these changes. Call it ingenuity if you want, there might be a little bit of that, but I'm confident that right now, it's our best shot.
Edit for below:
I still believe we can change the EU, that's my all point. If we don't, I fail to see any good coming from it. Only there am I willing to leave. So, no, I don't "want" to destroy the EU, I believe it will either change or destroy itself.
Alx
Member
Well in that case it makes sense that you'd want to actively destroy the current EU, since it's not meant to do what you want it to do.
The logical question one should ask, is once that's done, what's your plan (or Mélenchon's) to build the "new" EU the way you want it to be ? Because hope and good will aren't everything, you need arguments too.
Right now it feels like "We can't fix the house how you want it, so we'll tear it down.
- But you'll rebuild it afterwards, right ?
- We'll see..."
Well to be perfectly clear here, I don't even want the changes that Mélenchon would bring to the EU, so it's not like I'm a defeatist or anything, I think Europe is working mostly the only way it can, while having to manage countries going in every direction (especially with extremists promising the moon, including Mélenchon for me).
But it's true that I don't think it is possible anyway.
But it's true that I don't think it is possible anyway.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
To be fair, Melenchon's election, from the EU's perspective, is a crisis. You can shrug off call for reforms when it's the UK being a dick. You can't do it when it is France. I find it far more plausible that Melenchon could achieve EU reforms than a centrist politician because the very fact Melenchon was elected is a pretty worrying note for the EU and gives them a much bigger incentive than someone who would ideally like EU reform, but ultimately isn't going to make it a key issue.
The same strategy companies use when they want to delocalize, or when they need to pass a "plan social". The same strategy used during the last financial crisis, save us or the whole system will crumble shouted banks all in unison. "Take the deal or leave" Germany to Greece when the latter announced they would do a referendum. Vote for me or the FN will win? How many times have we also heard this. And these are just the few examples that spring to mind immediately...
Yes, as sad as it sounds, blackmail is often the basis of talks in our world and it has worked so many times before in favor of companies, banks, holders of capital and powerful countries because the balance of power is so immensely in favor of one party over the other. France is the second economic power in the EU now and soon to be the most populated, there is no EU without it. If France truly want reforms and if the other countries in the EU truly want more than their short term self interests (unlike the UK) then the balance of power will be not disproportionate enough to lead to another blackmailing situation and from there, a crisis will hopefully lead to what the left wants. To give Europe more institutional & representative power and to weaken the hold of the powers of the capital over them.
And what if the other 26 countries have other ideas about the future of Europe? You're playing with a lot of peoples' futures here.
Also letting your financial system collapse wasn't really and option, but I can agree on the Greek crisis being mismanaged.
To tell you the truth if it were Melenchon vs. LePen and I were French I probably just wouldn't show up to vote. Good thing I'm not French then lol.
France is the second most important country of the EU.
They leave it's game over. So the other countries will have to throw a bone or doom the entire EU.
whyamihere
Banned
Fillon dropping to 4th is pretty amazing, and a huge relief.
That would be true if they didn't have their own electorate to question to.
If France leaves we'll see a massive financial crisis and a massive build up of arms all over europe. Basically go back to 1925.
The give me something or i'll leave approach will backfire just as it did for the UK. Only that it's not gonna be one country fucked but all of europe(and probably the world).
I agree that the EU needs to be reformed however threatening to kill yourself if it doesn't happen is just childish.
We should rather try and get countries on board for reforms (if necessary go a multiple speed europe like proposed) and leave the unwilling obstructionists behind.
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