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[Panajev2001a]

This is just wrong. Only very high-end games use the NDK.

NDK is not just for performance though, if you need to allocate quite a bit of RAM (heap) you might need to use the NDK and native code to do it (the heap available to Java apps is quite limited, especially before Honeycomb and ICS).

 

[UraMallas]

$4 million is insane. I'm thinking of jumping on the bandwagon. If it hits $7 million I'll jump in.

 

[Jon of the Wired]

This one you'll really have to explain to me. How are NDK applications more portable? If anything, they'd be less portable, since they would depend on a specific (usually ARM) instruction set.

CPU instruction set is a tiny factor in portability, and one that's almost entirely taken care of by the compiler (unless you're hand writing a lot of assembly, but then you deserve to suffer). In any case, when you're talking about the portability of NDK games, it's almost always in the context of porting to iOS, which exclusively runs on ARM.

NDK apps are more portable because the programming environment of the NDK is substantially similar to that of iOS (for C or C++), Linux or Mac, i.e. a POSIX userspace and OpenGL (ES). The libraries for sound, event handling and system integration are different, but SDL or other middle-ware can abstract that away as well. The end result is that porting a game between the NDK and iOS is fairly straightforward, whereas a game written for Android in Java would need a complete rewrite in a different language in order to run on iOS.

 

[tino]

Does anyone know Xperia Play's sales number? If this thing hits 10 million, can we say it has higher install base than Xoeria Play?

 

[Baller. PhD]

$4 million???

Confirmed: I don't understand the world.

 

[Alchemy]

One thing I find interesting is that it isn't the most backers ever (31k right now). I think the major component of this Kickstarter's success is that the minimum buy in for anything really useful is $95+, so people that invest into Kickstarter's for actual products are pretty much forced to invest a large sum of money. Sort of obvious with 26k of their backers putting in $99.

I wonder if we're going to see any backer maximization attempts in the future for games in general, like raising the minimum pledge from $15 to $20 to squeeze out more funding. You have to wonder how the Double Fine Adventure of Wasteland 2 would have done if people were forced to drop $5 extra for a copy of the game.

 

[Lafazar]

A lot of that article feels like "I failed at doing something and so others will fail as well".

According to this (rather old) article the Tegra 3 costs $15-$25:

http://www.tegra3.org/tegra-3-set-for-fast-start-as-nvidia-announces-high-profits-for-q3/

Pandora didn't fail in the end, they just had lots and lots of problems. The guy actually wishes them to succeed:

I sound really mean in this article about the Ouya, but they were the best quotes. I do actually hope they succeed.

Source

 

[brettchalupa]

Does anyone know Xperia Play's sales number? If this thing hits 10 million, can we say it has higher install base than Xoeria Play?

Well it is not about the money that is backing it, it is about the number of backers. Assuming each backer is getting one console, that will give you an idea of the install base before the thing is even released.

I'd imagine there are people holding out, like me, until more information and details are shown off.

While devices like the Xpheria Play and Windows Phones do not have nearly as wide of an install base as Android or iOS devices, I think the numbers are still pretty high (much more than 100k).

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Does anybody else want to slap Ben Kuchera in the face for his nonstop whining about this? There are countless ill-conceived and shady Kickstarter projects out there and he chooses to get his panties in a knot over Ouya like nobody else possibly could. What's his deal? Would it help if it was an iOS box or something?

Give it a rest, dude.

 

[Hieberrr]

Does anybody else want to slap Ben Kuchera in the face for his nonstop whining about this? There are countless ill-conceived and shady Kickstarter projects out there and he chooses to get his panties in a knot over Ouya like nobody else possibly could. What's his deal? Would it help if it was an iOS box or something?

Give it a rest, dude.

He's definitely overly skeptical. But at this point, we've really seen nothing but a concept. I really do hope this takes off so that we can all buy and play games on the cheap.

 

[watership]

Does anybody else want to slap Ben Kuchera in the face for his nonstop whining about this? There are countless ill-conceived and shady Kickstarter projects out there and he chooses to get his panties in a knot over Ouya like nobody else possibly could. What's his deal? Would it help if it was an iOS box or something?

Give it a rest, dude.

He doesn't sound like a raving lunatic though, he's has a lot of good points. Most of what he seems to be combating is the idea that people think this is a console that exists.. and it doesn't, it's a design idea.

 

[Lafazar]

Does anybody else want to slap Ben Kuchera in the face for his nonstop whining about this? There are countless ill-conceived and shady Kickstarter projects out there and he chooses to get his panties in a knot over Ouya like nobody else possibly could. What's his deal? Would it help if it was an iOS box or something?

Give it a rest, dude.

Well, his article is pretty negative, but I think he raises a few fair points, and he's not the only one:
http://gamasutra.com/blogs/IanFisch/20120711/173901/OUYA_the_Android_console__naivete_at_work.php

I think some skepticism should be allowed in light of what is promised.

 

[Mlatador]

Now that they have so much extra money, they should add component or RGB output, for god's sakes!

 

[Jeff-DSA]

He's definitely overly skeptical. But at this point, we've really seen nothing but a concept. I really do hope this takes off so that we can all buy and play games on the cheap.

He's not just skeptical, he's just a downright whiny hater. There's no reason to be so unreasonably negative when Penny Arcade has a more dubious Kickstarter of their own running.

Edit: When he's telling people that they should pull their donation, he's crossing a line. He's being condescending, which he often is anyway. He may be right, but lots of people are choosing to support the platform because they want to have something out there that is focused on indie development first and foremost. What's so wrong with that? If we can boycott a cause we hate, can't we vote with our donations for a cause we think is good? Even if it fails, backers are proving that there's a space and a market there that's been left untapped.

 

[watership]

He's not just skeptical, he's just a downright whiny hater. There's no reason to be so unreasonably negative when Penny Arcade has a more dubious Kickstarter of their own running.

Edit: When he's telling people that they should pull their donation, he's crossing a line. He's being condescending, which he often is anyway. He may be right, but lots of people are choosing to support the platform because they want to have something out their that is focused on indie development first and foremost. What's so wrong with that? If we can boycott a cause we hate, can't we vote with our donations for a cause we think is good? Even if it fails, backers are proving that there's a space and a market there that's been left untapped.

I don't see that at all. I see he's calling out things are that it seems a lot of media are skipping over. This is his fight against what he sees as misconception of the whats going on. It's his opinion and he doesn't just whine, he argues it.

Do you own a stake in Ouya or something? Why does it matter to you?

 

[Lafazar]

He's not just skeptical, he's just a downright whiny hater. There's no reason to be so unreasonably negative when Penny Arcade has a more dubious Kickstarter of their own running.

Edit: When he's telling people that they should pull their donation, he's crossing a line. He's being condescending, which he often is anyway. He may be right, but lots of people are choosing to support the platform because they want to have something out their that is focused on indie development first and foremost. What's so wrong with that? If we can boycott a cause we hate, can't we vote with our donations for a cause we think is good? Even if it fails, backers are proving that there's a space and a market there that's been left untapped.

He has some serious concerns (which I largely share btw) and gives a recommendation based on several points made in the article. I don't see what the problem is. He is free to say what he wants and you are free to follow his advice or reject it.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Do you own a stake in Ouya or something? Why does it matter to you?

It matters because it's bad behavior on his part. If his argument is that he's not so sure it will be a success and that you shouldn't donate for that reason, isn't he basically helping to sow the seeds of failure? Why is he so subjectively negative in the first place? If more people donate, there's more guaranteed early adopters which will spur on early support by developers. It's like he's trying to throw anything he can in front of the train at this point to keep it from getting up to speed, despite the fact that it's clearly a highly desired product.

It's going to be disgustingly easy for developers who already have titles on Android to support the platform. They'll just need to patch in controller support (if it doesn't already exist) and submit it to the Ouya store. Games will be easy to come by, and it already seems as if they install base is going to be there.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Does anybody else want to slap Ben Kuchera in the face for his nonstop whining about this? There are countless ill-conceived and shady Kickstarter projects out there and he chooses to get his panties in a knot over Ouya like nobody else possibly could. What's his deal? Would it help if it was an iOS box or something?

Give it a rest, dude.

No, it's good to have skepticism in the midst of stuff like "revolution" and and "this generation's Commodore 64."

 

[Canis lupus]

Now that they have so much extra money, they should add component or RGB output, for god's sakes!

They should up the specs!

 

[Hieberrr]

He's not just skeptical, he's just a downright whiny hater. There's no reason to be so unreasonably negative when Penny Arcade has a more dubious Kickstarter of their own running.

Edit: When he's telling people that they should pull their donation, he's crossing a line. He's being condescending, which he often is anyway. He may be right, but lots of people are choosing to support the platform because they want to have something out there that is focused on indie development first and foremost. What's so wrong with that? If we can boycott a cause we hate, can't we vote with our donations for a cause we think is good? Even if it fails, backers are proving that there's a space and a market there that's been left untapped.

He brings up a lot of good points though:

1. The Android Game Library is Barely Compatible with the OUYA.

I agree with this completely. The current games on the Android market are largely designed around a touch screen, which means that gameplay, interface, etc... is designed with that in mind. This brings up a huge problem when you're trying to implement a physical input. Obviously the games that are designed to to "support" an actual controller won't have a problem implementing the API.

2. The Android Game Library is Extremely Lackluster

I also agree with this, especially when you compare it to the iOS platform. Having said that, there's is a lot of room for improvement. But then, having said that, you have to consider that the UOYA is marketed to a very niche market. So, you have to ask yourself: (1) Will developers develop for the Android platform in the first place? and (2) why should they develop for the UOYA when the Android mobile market is already so strong (in terms of userbase) (I mean, why haven't they to this point? The UOYA won't change this).

3. Indies Will Not Fill the Void

This, I slightly disagree with. There is always the potential for indie devs to jump on it, but you're talking about those with already established studios. So really, it's a matter of porting from what I understand anyways. This can go either way really.

4. The Userbase Problem

As mentioned before, the UOYA market is very niche. You'd have to really impact the industry like Nintendo and Sony (in terms of numbers) in order gain support.

6. Games are Moving Away From the TV

I admit, he's definitely wrong with this. This is one area that UOYA can do well in if it gets the userbase and pricing right.

7. Android Specs Move too Fast

I don't think specs are a problem. I do however think that UOYA needs to keep their software updated constantly in order not only improve their platform over time, but also to communicate with their users that they are keeping an eye out for fixes and that the support is still there post-purchase.




Again though, I really do wish that this platform takes off like their people need them

Spoiler

heh

, but you have to be cautious. It's a very risky investment for them and for the developers (and also to some extent, the users).

 

[watership]

It matters because it's bad behavior on his part. If his argument is that he's not so sure it will be a success and that you shouldn't donate for that reason, isn't he basically helping to sow the seeds of failure? Why is he so subjectively negative in the first place? If more people donate, there's more guaranteed early adopters which will spur on early support by developers. It's like he's trying to throw anything he can in front of the train at this point to keep it from getting up to speed, despite the fact that it's clearly a highly desired product.

It's going to be disgustingly easy for developers who already have titles on Android to support the platform. They'll just need to patch in controller support (if it doesn't already exist) and submit it to the Ouya store. Games will be easy to come by, and it already seems as if they install base is going to be there.

Well you obviously are a huge believer in this.. and this idea. That's cool, but there is nothing wrong with a huge dose of skepticism and caution. People's expectations also need to be reigned in. Android might have lots of games but they don't make much money, compared to Apple. They do make money however, on ads.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

They should up the specs!

The vast majority of people backing this are just paying the $99 for the console. Them getting up to $4,000,000 does not mean they now have that much money to invest in research and development or something. They've got to create the things and ship them out to people (assuming this isn't a big scam).

 

[Beer Monkey]

I agree with this completely. The current games on the Android market are largely designed around a touch screen, which means that gameplay, interface, etc... is designed with that in mind. This brings up a huge problem when you're trying to implement a physical input. Obviously the games that are designed to to "support" an actual controller won't have a problem implementing the API.

A huge amount of games use on-screen "virtual joypad" type controls. Any competent programmer could rewrite a game like this to use a real controller in one day.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Well you obviously are a huge believer in this.. and this idea. That's cool, but there is nothing wrong with a huge dose of skepticism and caution. People's expectations also need to be reigned in. Android might have lots of games but they don't make much money, compared to Apple. They do make money however, on ads.

I think the appeal here is that they offer a limited demo/free version and then people pay for the actual title and updates. It gets them away from the ad model.

 

[CrashPrime]

Ok, I have never done Kickstarter before, and this seems like part of gaming history win/lose/draw so I guess I am in. When OUYA says to include an extra $30 for a 2nd controller, does that mean if I do a custom amount of $129 I get the console + 2 controllers?

 

[Hieberrr]

A huge amount of games use on-screen "virtual joypad" type controls. Any competent programmer could rewrite a game like this to use a real controller in one day.

That depends on how you look at it. Yes, there are a lot of these games on the market, but how many actually get significant amounts of sales? I'm willing to argue that not many do.

Not every developer is going to jump on board, but if they do, they'd have to ensure that their game is extremely good and polished (which most of these are not).

The potential is there, but there are a lot of problems that are overlooked by the general consumer.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

That depends on how you look at it. Yes, there are a lot of these games on the market, but how many actually get significant amounts of sales? I'm willing to argue that not many do.

Not every developer is going to jump on board, but if they do, they'd have to ensure that their game is extremely good and polished (which most of these are not).

The potential is there, but there are a lot of problems that are overlooked by the general consumer.

Depending on OUYA's sdk, you could probably convert an on screen joystick to the controller and fully test it within a day.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

That depends on how you look at it. Yes, there are a lot of these games on the market, but how many actually get significant amounts of sales? I'm willing to argue that not many do.

Not every developer is going to jump on board, but if they do, they'd have to ensure that their game is extremely good and polished (which most of these are not).

The potential is there, but there are a lot of problems that are overlooked by the general consumer.

How do you figure? I'm not even a fan of mobile gaming, but there's plenty of good, well polished, games on the Android marketplace.

 

[GK86]

Ok, I have never done Kickstarter before, and this seems like part of gaming history win/lose/draw so I guess I am in. When OUYA says to include an extra $30 for a 2nd controller, does that mean if I do a custom amount of $129 I get the console + 2 controllers?

https://mobile.twitter.com/playouya/status/223138402910994432

@ playouya So if I back the $99+ option, is it an extra $30 for controller and shipping or $50 ($20 for shipping, $30 for controller)?

@ JennaStoffels $20 shipping, $30 controller! Add it all to your pledge! Hope that helps.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Ok, I have never done Kickstarter before, and this seems like part of gaming history win/lose/draw so I guess I am in. When OUYA says to include an extra $30 for a 2nd controller, does that mean if I do a custom amount of $129 I get the console + 2 controllers?

That's what I did. Selected the $99 bracket, and then put $129 in at the top. Add $30 if you're outside the US.

 

[Charoncaori]

I can program (to an extent) and have been planning to mess around with making games in the very near future. Should I get this as a learning experience? Would pledging $99 allow this? Would there be an alternative that sounds this easy? From a learning standpoint it wouldn't matter so much if this flops, but the $4 million is making this sound attractive.

I've only really played around with SDL a bit (I also had about 2 years worth of CS, including C/C++, java and x86), for reference. Sorry if this has been covered in the thread, I'm going to go back and read it.

 

[Jasoneyu]

The only thing I wish they did was at least wait and spend more time to announce their KS. Show a finished physical box/controller and more development time with the OS for a more indepth walkthrough (not a 23 second video). From their KS it seems like they just started the OS development not too long ago. With this they can at least alleviate some of the concerns that this just a shell of a console that won't get off the ground in shipping a finished product.

 

[GK86]

I can program (to an extent) and have been planning to mess around with making games in the very near future. Should I get this as a learning experience? Would pledging $99 allow this? Would there be an alternative that sounds this easy? From a learning standpoint it wouldn't matter so much if this flops, but the $4 million is making this sound attractive.

I've only really played around with SDL a bit (I also had about 2 years worth of CS, including C/C++, java and x86), for reference. Sorry if this has been covered in the thread, I'm going to go back and read it.

One of the main reasons I'm buying one is to mess around with the dev kit. Mostly, like you said, for the learning experience. They are promising an easy way to develop, and self publish your games. I have much, much less experience and knowledge than yourself, only been at it for a few months.

For me, a chance to wrap my head around a dev kit, and a cheap streaming media box/game console, with twitchtv, $99 is a no brainer.

Keep in mind, you don't have to pledge to get a console. They will be selling it down the line. So you could take the wait and see approach.

 

[2MF]

That's what I did. Selected the $99 bracket, and then put $129 in at the top. Add $30 if you're outside the US.

The shipping fee outside the US is $20.

 

[rohlfinator]

I agree with this completely. The current games on the Android market are largely designed around a touch screen, which means that gameplay, interface, etc... is designed with that in mind. This brings up a huge problem when you're trying to implement a physical input. Obviously the games that are designed to to "support" an actual controller won't have a problem implementing the API.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. One of my biggest disappointments with Android gaming is how many games (at least the more complex ones that I'm interested in) rely on virtual buttons/gamepad. Most of those would be easy ports. There are a lot of other touch-based games that would be pretty easily adaptable to a controller (especially grid-based stuff like Triple Town). The number of touchscreen games that really rely on a touchscreen for speed and precision is a lot lower than I expected.

As mentioned before, the UOYA market is very niche. You'd have to really impact the industry like Nintendo and Sony (in terms of numbers) in order gain support.

That is an impossibly high expectation, especially when you consider the low barrier to entry for development. Even Microsoft hasn't hit the numbers of Nintendo and Sony at their peak.

Services like XBLIG get their share of decent games even though the user base is tiny compared to a full console like the Wii, and I think OUYA easily has more attention and hype than XBLIG at this point. We're talking small indie developers here, not Rockstar making the next GTA OUYA-exclusive. They don't need hundreds of millions of users as long as their userbase is engaged and willing to buy games.

 

[Hieberrr]

How do you figure? I'm not even a fan of mobile gaming, but there's plenty of good, well polished, games on the Android marketplace.

Services like XBLIG get their share of decent games even though the user base is tiny compared to a full console like the Wii, and I think OUYA easily has more attention and hype than XBLIG at this point. We're talking small indie developers here, not Rockstar making the next GTA OUYA-exclusive. They don't need hundreds of millions of users as long as their userbase is engaged and willing to buy games.

My point was, unless you have a well polished, extremely good, and controller-based game, you're not gonna do well on the UOYA. So chances are, the developers who don't necessarily meet those criteria very well won't take a chance on a platform that has a small userbase, especially when rate of returns are as low as they already are in the mobile space with Android.

from a developers stand point (yes, indie), why invest your time in developing a well polished game (that isn't ad supported) for a console that has a really small userbase? It makes no business sense at all unless UOYA is able to push some serious numbers. The developers don't run the market, the consumers do. And when you have a really small number of consumers in your market, you run the risk of not doing very well.

So --------------------------> Why waste all that time, when you can create something for iOS or the mobile Android markets.. or even PC?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

So --------------------------> Why waste all that time, when you can create something for iOS or the mobile Android markets.. or even PC?

You port your work to it. It's not hard for a developer to add controller support. I don't know why this concept is proving difficult for people to understand.

 

[Hieberrr]

You port your work to it. It's not hard for a developer to add controller support. I don't know why this concept is proving difficult for people to understand.

W're talking new games and new developers.
Nice "attack at the end there". Stay classy.

So far, you haven't provided any compelling argument.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I think the appeal here is that they offer a limited demo/free version and then people pay for the actual title and updates. It gets them away from the ad model.

But there's no set standard that pushes this model. The current business plan is a developer can offer any version and payment method that they see fit. It does nothing to get away from the ad model at all.

 

[Pachimari]

Assassin's Creed
Bastion
Battlefield
Battletoads
Call of Duty
Dungeon Defenders
Fez
FIFA
Final Fantasy
Grand Theft Auto
League of Legends
Limbo
Mass Effect
Minecraft
Need for Speed
Skyrim
Super Meat Boy
Terraria
Timesplitters
Torchlight

Now they are asking, which of the 20 games people want to see on Ouya the most in this survey.

Please vote Limbo, Bastion and TimeSplitters.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Now they are asking, which of the 20 games people want to see on Ouya the most in this survey.

Please vote Limbo, Bastion and TimeSplitters.

So half of them are mainstream games that will never happen. Seems like the audience wants something more than an indie console and they pretty much want to pay $99 for the console instead of $200 to $300 to play those games.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

W're talking new games and new developers.
Nice "attack at the end there". Stay classy.

So far, you haven't provided any compelling argument.

If you're a developer developing for Android, you're already set. If you've been on iOS, port it. Why do they have to be new developers? This doesn't make sense. You play new games everyday from old developers.

I wasn't attacking anybody either. It just literally makes no sense to me that people can't understand that it's not going to be hard at all to put games out on this machine. It's Android 4.0. You just have to add controller support. Not hard.

 

[Boerseun]

I reckon they need to stop mentioning Android so often. It's not a software platform that inspires confidence, in my opinion. Devs need to know what they're working with, and the general public won't care which platform it runs, but the knowledgeable inbetween are coming from years of exposure to Android's rather run-of-the-mill software support. And I believe that's the number one source for the negativity on sites like GAF.

Which will look worse than anything the 360 or PS3 can put out.

Nonsense. Some of what Tegra 3 puts out already looks better than many games on Ps360. Now imagine that code further optimised for a single, closed-box design.

 

[ghibli99]

He brings up a lot of good points though:

I agree with this completely. The current games on the Android market are largely designed around a touch screen, which means that gameplay, interface, etc... is designed with that in mind. This brings up a huge problem when you're trying to implement a physical input. Obviously the games that are designed to to "support" an actual controller won't have a problem implementing the API.

Yep. Porting is easy, but making them playable sans touch will be something else entirely.

 

[ArchedThunder]

Nonsense. Some of what Tegra 3 puts out already looks better than many games on Ps360. Now imagine that code further optimised for a single, closed-box design.

The best looking game I can find for the Tegra 3 has nice lighting and thats about it, everything else looks way behind what the current gen consoles can do. Not like a generation behind but still behind.

 

[Lothars]

Nonsense. Some of what Tegra 3 puts out already looks better than many games on Ps360. Now imagine that code further optimised for a single, closed-box design.

I don't know how you can say that and believe it, Nothing they put out looks as good as PS3/360 games. They look pretty good but they are still quite a bit behind.

 

[RadicalVelocity]

That games list is ridiculous. Clearly about a third of the respondents don't get it, with skyrim and mass effect on there. At least minecraft has the highest demand according to the survey.

 

[ghibli99]

Thinking about this more, I could hope for something that mirrors the C64/Amiga scene... I like the thought of open, unified architecture (like an A500, for example) bringing out creativity and community. That sort of thing won't make it rise above the big three, but it could still be incredibly awesome for demos, music, art, tools, and of course games. I know that's not the goal (seems like most folks just want to play what's already out there on a cheap system), but hell, I'd support it 100% if it went in that direction.

 

[element]

Now they are asking, which of the 20 games people want to see on Ouya the most in this survey.

Please vote Limbo, Bastion and TimeSplitters.

That games list is ridiculous. Clearly about a third of the respondents don't get it, with skyrim and mass effect on there. At least minecraft has the highest demand according to the survey.

it is pretty silly. Not to mention that Notch has even come out and said that it wouldn't be getting Minecraft, but the Pocket Edition.

The whole thing is just shady imo.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Now they are asking, which of the 20 games people want to see on Ouya the most in this survey.

Please vote Limbo, Bastion and TimeSplitters.

Now that's some funny stuff.

People really, really need to get their expectations in check.