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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

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L

Lime

Member
People are demonstratively wrong to think this is solely a religious component that motivate people like this. It is ideological, economical, social, and militaristic factors that contribute to this. Blaming Islam is short-sighted and narrow-minded and it only reduces a very complex issue to a worldview that hurts other people.

Second, the measures to fix this isn't to just "kill the bad guys". The world isn't a Western flick where you just kill or bomb someone and they stop doing what they are doing (although the US and Europe tends to think along these lines). You have to approach this unilaterally and multilaterally through economic, social, military, security, and diplomatic measures.

Sending of drones or bombs or supplying weapons just cause more grief and hurt because it not only destabilizes peace and prosperity, but it also hurts innocents.
 
M

michaelius

Banned
fantastic_planet said:
it's crazy how overrun some parts of that site get, but the main subreddits really are a filter for smaller ones. Though sometimes an idiot speaks his mind in an innocent hobby subreddit and that's when you find out whether your mods are cool or not.

Lets just hope France and others have a better plan than, say, the U.S. reaction to 9/11.

The war and sharp swing to the right is something we'll be fixing up for a while.
Click to expand...

What plan ? They did nothing after Charlie, they did nothing when only luck in the form of two heroic marines saved them from mass genocide in train.

There will be some marches and anthem singing and after that everyone will do nothing until next attack.
 
L

Led_Zeppelin

Member
Lime said:
CTxFlK_WoAERmvp
Click to expand...

That is a bullshit stance. Why?

Because the terrorist are Muslims, they are extremist and they aren't a representation of all Muslims but there has to be a clear cut here and call a cat for its name. Jihadist extremist are Muslims, they follow the Quran and want to form a Caliphate and establish Sharia Law. You can't get more Muslim that than, those where the foundation of the Sunni slit in the 7th century from the Shiite (among others of course but this isn't a clear explanation and in deep in the division of Islam).

You have to part from the point that this attacks are Suunis that have a clear goal (that isn't terror or attack freedom) but for that you have to understand why they are extremist and why they separate themselves from the rest of the Muslim world.

I am not saying that all Muslims should be religiously profiled but people need to leave this stupid idea that "terrorist aren't Muslims!", because they are, they have an extremist vision of the religion and they validate their actions thanks to their interpretation of the Quran, pointing out a fact shouldn't be addressed as islamophia or hatred. Now talking that every single Muslim is a terrorist, now THAT is islamophobia and racism but in this discussion there seems to be 2 camps that either want to deport all Muslims out of the country and send them back to sandagistan or people that say "Terrorist are not Muslims!" when that is a naive view of reality, the true is in the middle and the solution can only come if people realize that on the current state of debate no one good answer will come.
 
N

NoblesseOblige

Banned
ROMAD said:
Yea because your government won't respond to it the same way... Holy shit you're stupid
Click to expand...

How does that change the sentiment of their post exactly? They didn't even imply they condoned a violent response from their own government, if it were to happen. It was a response to a tasteless picture of the Statue of Liberty carrying a weapon.
 
V

velociraptor

Junior Member
The perfect Dark said:
I don't think ISIS wants this.
Click to expand...
I'm sure ISIS knew full well there would be Western retaliation. I think they desire an all out war to divide the world into a Muslim v non-Muslim apocalypse. What could they have possibly hoped to achieve by killing 100+ in France besides further stirring up tensions?
 
I

iMax

Member
Led_Zeppelin said:
That is a bullshit stance. Why?

Because the terrorist are Muslims, they are extremist and they aren't a representation of all Muslims but there has to be a clear cut here and call a cat for its name. Jihadist extremist are Muslims, they follow the Quran and want to form a Caliphate and establish Sharia Law. You can't get more Muslim that than, those where the foundation of the Sunni slit in the 7th century from the Shiite (among others of course but this isn't a clear explanation and in deep in the division of Islam).

You have to part from the point that this attacks are Suunis that have a clear goal (that isn't terror or attack freedom) but for that you have to understand why they are extremist and why they separate themselves from the rest of the Muslim world.

I am not saying that all Muslims should be religiously profiled but people need to leave this stupid idea that "terrorist aren't Muslims!", because they are, they have an extremist vision of the religion and they validate their actions thanks to their interpretation of the Quran, pointing out a fact shouldn't be addressed as islamophia or hatred. Now talking that every single Muslim is a terrorist, now THAT is islamophobia and racism but in this discussion there seems to be 2 camps that either want to deport all Muslims out of the country and send them back to sandagistan or people that say "Terrorist are not Muslims!" when that is a naive view of reality, the true is in the middle and the solution can only come if people realize that on the current state of debate no one good answer will come.
Click to expand...

They're only Muslims in the sense that it is how they personally identify. That's an issue of internalisation.
 
D

Dynedom

Member
Led_Zeppelin said:
That is a bullshit stance. Why?

Because the terrorist are Muslims, they are extremist and they aren't a representation of all Muslims but there has to be a clear cut here and call a cat for its name. Jihadist extremist are Muslims, they follow the Quran and want to form a Caliphate and establish Sharia Law. You can't get more Muslim that than, those where the foundation of the Sunni slit in the 7th century from the Shiite (among others of course but this isn't a clear explanation and in deep in the division of Islam).

You have to part from the point that this attacks are Suunis that have a clear goal (that isn't terror or attack freedom) but for that you have to understand why they are extremist and why they separate themselves from the rest of the Muslim world.

I am not saying that all Muslims should be religiously profiled but people need to leave this stupid idea that "terrorist aren't Muslims!", because they are, they have an extremist vision of the religion and they validate their actions thanks to their interpretation of the Quran, pointing out a fact shouldn't be addressed as islamophia or hatred. Now talking that every single Muslim is a terrorist, now THAT is islamophobia and racism but in this discussion there seems to be 2 camps that either want to deport all Muslims out of the country and send them back to sandagistan or people that say "Terrorist are not Muslims!" when that is a naive view of reality, the true is in the middle and the solution can only come if people realize that on the current state of debate no one good answer will come.
Click to expand...

Why the hell are you pulling the "No True Scotsman" counterargument when that isn't what he was trying to say at all?

He did not mention that these people aren't muslim. He's saying that turning this into a "target islam" thing is probably the worst thing you can possibly do.

His entire point is valid.
 
W

woen

Member
cyberheater said:
And the point I'm making is that we are now in a place where we continually make a trade between our personal freedoms and our safety. I can see that human rights will be a casualty of that.

I've already heard reports of one of the folks who committed this act was 'known to the police'. If he was suspected of being a terrorist should we have allowed him to carry out his business or should we have detained and in prisoned him without sufficient evidence for a court to convict him?
Click to expand...

1) Reports are rumors for now
2) You have different classifications, not everyone is linked in the past 15 years or more to terrorism, or has done any real crime or done anything wrong for several months
3) So how do you watch everyone with so little people and budget ? How do you watch French citizens who never went abroad, those who went but we don't know about, those who went and we know about, and the foreigners ? 3000 people or more ?
4) You already have people being condemned because of the laws implemented, that adapted legislation to the renewal and growth of the threat
5) You can't have 0% risk, even though every week attacks are prevented
6) You don't seem to know how anti-terrorist fight is being done by authorities
 
J

Jumeira

Banned
helloresolven said:
Is there any proof at all that ISIS think like that and state that as a goal amongst themselves?

Or maybe ISIS just wants to slaughter Westerners because they think we're part of all their problems and disgrace to the name of Allah.
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Don't think it's got anything to do with western nations opinion on Islam (disgracing Islam) in the eyes of ISIS but primarily their involvemnt in military campaigns in regions they deem thiers. Charlie Hebdo wasnt isis but the terrorists that comited those rally behind them to give credit to thier fight against the West. It's all fairly complex.
LNBL said:
So someone tweeted this today :

182f541eb5c48bd18a1163f56032eb79.png


The airfrance airplane is now grounded and being searched.
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Fuck him, and we shouldnt be posting this IMO, just out of respect and to fuck him over. I was hoping of his demise yesterday
 
T

The perfect Dark

Banned
Pterion said:
This is exactly what they want. Something about Jesus (yea, you read right. Must be an alternate version of the new testament I am not aware of) coming back to Earth and helping them to victory against infidels in the holy land of... Syria?
Click to expand...

They are going to lose this fight. They know it, that's why they keep doing these kind of attacks ("stop bombing us in Syria"). At least that's my opinion.
 
C

caleb1915

Member
szaromir said:
Before you purposefully cherrypick news to spread anti-Polish sentiments, please at least fully inform yourself what the situation is like in that country.
Click to expand...

Now I'm anti-Polish? Ok bud, can you explain to me what the situation is like now?

Was an anti-immigration, anti-gay rights, anti-abortion, European conservative part NOT elected to the parliament majority and Presidency just a couple of weeks ago?

Please inform me.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
ElTorro said:
At the same time a disturbingly large number of people is unwilling and scared to discuss any connection between Islam and Islamism/Jihadism, because we are incapable of having nuanced discussions. It's either the bigoted nonsense on the right that puts all Muslims and refugees under general suspicion, or the nonsense on the other side of the spectrum that denies any problem with religious ideology at all and brands anyone who speaks about it an islamophobe. Consequently, the west will continue to be unable to discuss and analyze the causes of terrorism rationally and support Muslim reformers who recognize the ideological problems that are at the heart in the battle for the soul of their faith.
Click to expand...

At the same time there is also a disturbingly large number of people who want to give credence and legibility to the clerics who have an extremist interpretation, they also have the view that due to what they view is equal footing in religious interpretation thus in their logical view it does not matter if someone is moderate or extremist in their interpretation, to them they think that an extremist interpretation exists , thus the faith itself is dangerous. These people conveniently not realizing that the extremist view is an offshoot of wahabbism which itself is a new school of thought in the 18th century not the 7th. They also don't realize that wahabbism is an offshoot of the hanbali school of thought which was nearly irradiated in early days of Islam for being too rigid and extreme and only grew up again in the 18th century under wahabbism and the 19th century under maudoodism. So these people think that the innovation in faith to make it more extreme is on equal footing with the other schools of thought which kicked out the extremist view in the 8th century. More often than not the rewriting of history that they accept is the one creating by the Christian missionaries during the crusades who wanted to create an aura of the Muslim as a satanic army during the crusade wars. It's unfortunate that this rewriting is accepted by some atheists today as well even though they view those Christian missionaries are liars for almost every other reason when atheists themselves were killed in the Middle Ages
 
E

Eighty Deuce

Banned
M_Night said:
Indeed.

And people lack the social and self reflection skills to see this within themselves and in the environment too.
Click to expand...

Non violence only works if there's a societal distaste for violence on both sides. Sure our side could turn the other cheek, but these extremists never will. So I turn to a better option, fight fire with dynamite.
 
N

nib95

Banned
Big Green Anus said:
What is it going to take to help the Middle East with isis and other things? Is this due to religion differences or something much more? I honestly don't see this ending in my lifetime, which is making me depressed :(
Click to expand...

It's going to take a Middle East that isn't war torn and constantly in a state of violence and turmoil. Prior to 9/11, how much Islamic terrorist violence was there in the West, or even in these parts of the Middle East?

In Iraq, there were zero suicide attacks in the country's history until 2003. Since then, there have been 1,892.

In Pakistan, there was one suicide attack in the 14 years before 9/11. In the fourteen years since, there have been 486.

Let's be honest here, the war on terror, $5 trillion dollars later, has not only failed to stop Islamic terrorism, it has actually massively fuelled and empowered it.

Violence, war, bombings, poverty, instability, lack of mobility, limited prosperity etc, all of these things cripple the chances of progress. What the Middle East needs is more infrastructure, education, funding, science, academia etc. Though if the Middle East went back to that, I doubt elements of Western powers could profit from the military industrial complex or oil contracts quite so easily. I can't see this all getting any better any time soon. The self perpetuating cycle of violence and hatred wages on.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
pulsemyne said:
Wouldn't surprise me if that was some twat twitter troll.
Click to expand...
Probably. Hope they track him and punish him for that bullshit.

PdotMichael said:
Looks like he is talking about a third world war for some time now and this is just another piecemeal of it.

That's the closet thing a pope can do crusade rhetorics without using the term crusade.
Click to expand...
But he isn't calling for that right? I don't follow the Pope that much, but as far as I know he always calls for peace and avoiding conflict. I doubt he wants any violence or 'crusade' mentality in the world or his own church.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Beefy said:
I said earlier in the thread that I hope France don't put soldiers on the ground. But I can now see that happening. Which is what ISIS want.
Click to expand...

That's ridiculous. ISIS is not a far-flung network like Al-Qaeda. While it obviously has international cells, the vast majority of its power is centered around Raqqa and Mosul. If these cities fell to foreign forces, ISIS will lose nearly all of its ability to project power.
 
Jag

Jag

Member
Those poor young people at the concert. It reminds me of the Palestinian terror attack against the disco in Tel Aviv that murdered those teenagers. Just young people out for a good time and end up dead. I wonder if these young terrorists just hate the lifestyle of freedom and fun.
 
D

DiipuSurotu

Banned
michaelius said:
What plan ? They did nothing after Charlie, they did nothing when only luck in the form of two heroic marines saved them from mass genocide in train.

There will be some marches and anthem singing and after that everyone will do nothing until next attack.
Click to expand...

Not that it changes your point but, just for the record, it was actually an Airman, an National Guard and a student (along with an American-French dual citizen, a British, and a French).
 
A

Azulsky

Member
Stopping a cycle like this is ridiculously difficult once it begins.

However not letting a whole country(Syria) eat itself to begin with would have been a good start. ISIS just festered in that power vacuum and now we have this problem. We are lucky only Syria's situation created a group like this and not Egypt and Libya as well.

The UN was useless to stop this and now Russia is probably going to be barbarically stomping the Syrian/Iraqi countryside along with other nations now until its over.

Worst off the EU and the US are going to use this to institute more authoritarian security measures that don't prevent anything and only show the obvious trail of red flags in hindsight.

I have no solutions only questions as to why all the preventative measures didn't do a thing.
 
K

Kenshin001

Member
Sulik2 said:
The real root of the problem is Saudi Arabia. The have been the backbone of radical Islam's funding and ideologues and no one touches them because of oil. Get a coalition of Russia China and NATO to agree to divide the oil between all three so an invasion doesn't trigger WW 3 then go solve the Saudi problem and you could actually make progress towards stopping terrorism.
Click to expand...

Yeah, an invasion by infidels of the holiest site in Islam sounds like a winner. I'm sure the Muslim world will be cheering that one on.
 
I

IchigoSharingan

Member
Lime said:
People are demonstratively wrong to think this is solely a religious component that motivate people like this. It is ideological, economical, social, and militaristic factors that contribute to this. Blaming Islam is short-sighted and narrow-minded and it only reduces a very complex issue to a worldview that hurts other people.

Second, the measures to fix this isn't to just "kill the bad guys". The world isn't a Western flick where you just kill or bomb someone and they stop doing what they are doing (although the US and Europe tends to think along these lines). You have to approach this unilaterally and multilaterally through economic, social, military, security, and diplomatic measures.

Sending of drones or bombs or supplying weapons just cause more grief and hurt because it not only destabilizes peace and prosperity, but it also hurts innocents.
Click to expand...

quoted because this post deserves a 2nd,3rd, and a 4th reading
 
O

orochi91

Member
nib95 said:
It's going to take a Middle East that isn't war torn and constantly in a state of violence and turmoil. Prior to 9/11, how much Islamic terrorist violence was there in the West, or even in these parts of the Middle East?

In Iraq, there were zero suicide attacks in the country's history until 2003. Since then, there have been 1,892.

In Pakistan, there was one suicide attack in the 14 years before 9/11. In the fourteen years since, there have been 486.

Let's be honest here, the war on terror, $5 trillion dollars later, has not only failed to stop Islamic terrorism, it has actually massively fuelled and empowered it.

Violence, war, bombing, instability etc, none of this will help. What the Middle East needs is more infrastructure, education, funding, science, academia etc. Though if the Middle East went back to that, I doubt Western powers could profit from the military industrial complex or oil contracts quite so easily. I can't see this all getting any better any time soon. The self perpetuating clear of violence and hatred wages on.
Click to expand...

There's too much profit to be made from war, so forget about peace in the ME for the next century and onward.
 
L

LNBL

Member
Jag said:
Those poor young people at the concert. It reminds me of the Palestinian terror attack against the disco in Tel Aviv that murdered those teenagers. Just young people out for a good time and end up dead. I wonder if these young terrorists just hate the lifestyle of freedom and fun.
Click to expand...

Our (dutch) prime minister states that our way of live is going to restaurants, going to concerts and visiting theaters. Do you actually belief these activities have anything to do with these attacks? It's like he believes that people elsewhere (outside the Western world) would not like to do those things.
 
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