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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

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No, it's not the only option. It's the option that has been resorted to countless times in the past, and massively failed each and every time. It will only breed ISIS 2, 3 4 and 5. Only giving each new version of the group more ammunition to recruit, and more displaced and ignorant people to pray on.

The key is education, infrastructure, trade, academia, dialogue, improved foreign policy etc. Basically these places that are currently breeding grounds, need to cease being areas of constant war, violence, destruction, fear, turmoil and poverty. These things are perfect catalysts with which such groups thrive.

Hey, there was a little war called the Iraq War.

Turns out nation building is fucking impossible, or at the very least horrible difficult and will last for decades when you topple a dictator and are in the middle of a civil war.

Have people not learned anything from Iraq? Nation building is a pipe dream, it's not gonna happen.
 

woen

Member
Then tell me about the alternatives.

->

The key is education, infrastructure, trade, academia, dialogue, improved foreign policy etc. Basically these places that are currently breeding grounds, need to cease being areas of constant war, violence, destruction, fear, turmoil and poverty. These things are perfect catalysts with which such groups thrive.

Yeah that is basically this. Re-start from scratch. Thinking out of the box. Less bombs, more politics and policies

Try google translate these http://orientxxi.info/magazine/pour-combattre-le-djihadisme-moins,0835 / http://lemonde.fr/idees/article/201...-enfin-une-chance-a-la-paix_4496657_3232.html )
 

nib95

Banned
How do you propose diplomatic relations with ISIS will work?

Regarding ISIS specifically, not with them but with Assad, which should have happened in the first place. It's a lack of the latter, and instead support for the rebels that partly gave ISIS the foundation it needed to grow in the first place. Sometimes you gotta go with the lesser evil. Even Saddam, as nasty as he was, still managed to keep some semblance of peace and balance, and there wasn't the mass in fighting between sects, and gross instability there is today. No amount of training Iraqi police was ever going to change that.
 

BKJest

Member
There have been countless people that have committed suicide attacks believing it to be for a greater cause without motivation of religion.
But those are weak cowards that don't get along with their lives. It has nothing to do with politics or religion. The terrorists will always lose. Regarding life they've already lost when they joined ISIS.
 
Interested to see what the France Goverment will do now. Saying this is an "Act of War" is a strong statement.

Either way ISIS is getting more and more dangerous. Not something that can be ignored now by the more...industrialized world.
 
My friend is at Paris now and his flight is tomorrow. Does anybody know if the airports at Paris is now under heavy guard from the police/army? He plan to get there early and hunker down there until his flight, if there are a lot of security there, probably more safe than his hotel.
 

pompidu

Member
Cultural/economic/humanitarian exchange is one of the most important things to do. It is exactly Isis plan to prevent that.

Isis is not a country or a nationality. It is a bunch of homegrown vigilantes that want what they want. It is there choice to kill their own people. And they choose to do it. Bombing the. Isn't gonna help the situation, halping refugees does and completely being uninvolved will help.

Have you heard of oil?

That's not what the Nazis thought of jews, Israel didn't even exist by then and most European jews have been there for centuries.

Were moving away from oil, thankfully. Not fast enough
 

hxa155

Member
The real root of the problem is Saudi Arabia. The have been the backbone of radical Islam's funding and ideologues and no one touches them because of oil. Get a coalition of Russia China and NATO to agree to divide the oil between all three so an invasion doesn't trigger WW 3 then go solve the Saudi problem and you could actually make progress towards stopping terrorism.

And who the hell are you to think you deserve Saudi's oil? You think you can just invade people's countries and take their resources. That'd create insurgency and terrorism 10 times deadlier than Iraq war. Think before you post that shit.
 
My friend is at Paris now and his flight is tomorrow. Does anybody know if the airports at Paris is now under heavy guard from the police/army? He plan to get there early and hunker down there until his flight, if there are a lot of security there, probably more safe than his hotel.
Is there any doubt? Security will be at the maximum level.
 

Kurita

Member
JsRG2Zy.jpg

That's not tasteful
 
My friend is at Paris now and his flight is tomorrow. Does anybody know if the airports at Paris is now under heavy guard from the police/army? He plan to get there early and hunker down there until his flight, if there are a lot of security there, probably more safe than his hotel.
I was just watching cnn and the reporter said he flew In this morning and that the security is extremely tight.
 

Bennettt2

Member
this is so sobering, and it doesn't look like there's a simple solution since the full truth behind this may be only known to the highest levels of govt. intelligence.

However, Ideological tensions are heating up, and the massacre of innocent lives is the method being used to move the pawn forward. This much is obvious.
 

kitch9

Banned
A government petition in the UK to stop all immigration until ISIS is defeated has hit over 100k signatures in less than 15 hours...
 
Hey, there was a little war called the Iraq War.

Turns out nation building is fucking impossible, or at the very least horrible difficult and will last for decades when you topple a dictator and are in the middle of a civil war.

Have people not learned anything from Iraq? Nation building is a pipe dream, it's not gonna happen.
you cannot nation build a country based on imaginary lines that contain jumbled opposing clans, opposing sects into the same country who hate each other.
 

Snaku

Banned
Hey, there was a little war called the Iraq War.

Turns out nation building is fucking impossible, or at the very least horrible difficult and will last for decades when you topple a dictator and are in the middle of a civil war.

Have people not learned anything from Iraq? Nation building is a pipe dream, it's not gonna happen.

The Bush Administration had no plan of action following the war. None. And they never bothered to develop one. Nation building is impossible when you don't even try. Germany and Japan were rebuilt just fine.
 

Klossen

Banned
Not with ISIS, with Assad. It's a lack of the latter, and instead support for the rebels that partly gave ISIS the foundation it needed to grow in the first place. Sometimes you gotta go with the lesser evil. Even Saddam, as nasty as he was, still managed to keep some semblance of peace and balance, and there wasn't the mass in fighting between sects, and gross instability there is today. No amount of training Iraqi police was ever going to change that.

That's what's already partly happening with Russia intervening. You'd still need to fight ISIS indirectly though. And you'd still be supporting a dictator. Saddam was no angel either. After he gassed the Kurds and killed thousands, America had to intervene and establish a no-fly zone. Under Saddam's rule, thousands of Iraqis died of hunger and famine. It was no fairy tale. And Saddam himself started out as an American puppet.
 

kitch9

Banned
They have tried democracy, they'll try friendly dictatorship next.

Looks like in order to keep control of a country in the middle east people have to be shot now and then, too many interpretations of the cloud fairy story with everyone thinking theirs is correct for it not to happen.
 

stupei

Member
Dude, Israel was born after WW2. The Jews were seen as the few who controlled everything and had all the wealth.

That's not what the Nazis thought of jews, Israel didn't even exist by then and most European jews had been there for centuries.

Sorry, I misspoke, but you're also severely over-simplifying. The actual nation of Israel didn't yet exist, but if you read actual documents the German Nazis actually wrote they talk at great length about Jewish people not being German, but Middle Eastern. They talk about them as foreign agents. Yes, they had been there for some time, which is why Hitler and his top generals spoke about them as being invading forces that had been chipping away at German resources for quite some time, stealing their economy out from under them. (They also reached out to the powers in control of Jerusalem at one point and said they wanted to transport their Jewish prisoners there, to expel them forcibly from the country, but soon abandoned those efforts entirely because the war was already well underway and England controlled that part of the waters.)

They were also racially motivated, because they considered Jewish people to be another race. Hitler read the works of a highly celebrated (at the time) American author -- I'm blanking on the name -- who said that there is a racial hierarchy with white people at the top, Asian people next, and black people on the bottom. Hitler then decided that Jewish people were even further below that, and therefor less human and easier to kill without guilt. Obviously he chose Jewish people to find ways to single out and Other because of the extreme economic unrest at the time (also a huge motivating factor in recruitment for ISIS) and how easy he thought it was to place blame on them as people who did work in trade and similar industries which were still turning a considerable profit. (There are also the factors of Hitler's personal dislike for Jewish styles of art and his failure as an artist, but that's a digression.)

But again, none of those factors were actual religious or faith based differences. It was only when it came time to convince the general public that these people were different and Other -- theoretically making them easier to kill -- that the propaganda began to focus on more social factors.

It was never really about religion. It was about poverty and nationalism, at least for those with power and control. Religious or social factors are just the easiest ways to control the people you intend to let die to further your cause.

edit: And if you read some of the things said by generals of al-Qaeda, they similarly talk about religious or social differences far less often, except as a means of recruitment and manipulation. Their focus was always more about economic threats and western attacks that had already taken place. It's much easier to motivate people once they feel they are being oppressed by someone else, and religion is an easy tool to use to create a sort of fervor, but you never see the people at the top martyring themselves in the same way as those they have indoctrinated.
 

nib95

Banned
A government petition in the UK to stop all immigration until ISIS is defeated has hit over 100k signatures in less than 15 hours...

Which is stupid, because ISIS will never fully be defeated. Just as Al-Qaeda still exists today as well. And I'm not sure why immigrants and refugees ought to suffer even more as a result of terrorists and evil people on who are by and large completely unrelated.

But people are dense and easily scared.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
Not with ISIS, with Assad. It's a lack of the latter, and instead support for the rebels that partly gave ISIS the foundation it needed to grow in the first place. Sometimes you gotta go with the lesser evil. Even Saddam, as nasty as he was, still managed to keep some semblance of peace and balance, and there wasn't the mass in fighting between sects, and gross instability there is today. No amount of training Iraqi police was ever going to change that.
Helping Assad is a very short term solution, though. Syrians don't want him anymore and he's unable to control the country. That's how that whole mess started. He answered to protests with extreme violence and it escalated from there. I think the "proposed" Russian plan is actually a good starting point, but it pretty much involves replacing Assad in an election.

@RollingStone

Foo Fighters cancel remainder of European tour following Paris terror attacks http://rol.st/1Nwx5JE

Sad that they did.
That's kind of shitty, the whole tour?
 

woen

Member
How do you re-start from scratch without war against ISIS?

Please read the links I provide before asking questions already answered.

There is already a war against ISIS. In Cameroun, in Sinai, in Mali, in Syria, in Iraq. Is it working ? No. It doesn't even bring a statu quo. Spending billions and billions in dropping bombs and deploying ground soldiers is distracting the States from the solutions that could stop the growth and kill ISIS from the inside.
 

nib95

Banned
Helping Assad is a very short term solution, though. Syrians don't want him anymore and he's unable to control the country. That's how that whole mess started. He answered to protests with extreme violence and it escalated from there. I think the "proposed" Russian plan is actually a good starting point, but it pretty much involves replacing Assad in an election.

A portion of Syria didn't want him, but he still had majority support.

A large portion of America doesn't want Democrats, and in the UK, Conservatives, doesn't mean you can just overthrow the government, or request other nations help support and/or arm a rebellion.
 
The Bush Administration had no plan of action following the war. None. And they never bothered to develop one. Nation building is impossible when you don't even try. Germany and Japan were rebuilt just fine.

Germany and Japan weren't in a fucking civil war for the entire occupation.

I think my head is going to explode, it's like people are willfully misremembering things and just saying "oh well they just didn't try, if we actually try then we can get it done!".
 

keuja

Member
A government petition in the UK to stop all immigration until ISIS is defeated has hit over 100k signatures in less than 15 hours...

Well, taking refugees already represents a burden on the economy of a country. And now you have the risk of importing terrorists that kills dozens of your citizens. Fuck that.
Strict border control has to be reinstated and only carefully filtered political refugees should be allowed to enter.
 
Her head is head hung low, and her shoulder are hunched. She is begrudgingly being drawn into war.

I think it is incredibly powerful.

I think I'd rather see the Statue of Liberty (as a personification of the American people in this image) heading to France to help them recover, rather than carrying a gun to shoot those who did them bad.
 

Snaku

Banned
Germany and Japan weren't in a fucking civil war for the entire occupation.

I think my head is going to explode, it's like people are willfully misremembering things and just saying "oh well they just didn't try, if we actually try then we can get it done!".

Iraq didn't devolve into a civil war until well after Saddam fell. Had they had a plan for rebuilding, and hadn't unilaterally thrown every Baathist out of the military and government, things never would have degenerated to that point.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it hit over a million tbh, people are rightfully worried.

Like that would stop ISIS from getting their own "recruits" inside the country, which with such a measure they would have even an easier time.

Let's not forget that several of the terrorists in the last months were born in the country they were committing the attacks....
 

kitch9

Banned
These people must be terrified of driving to work each morning if the infinitesimal chance of them getting blown up by a terrorist worries them.

I'm not sure if you are aware a small group of people killed and maimed hundreds last night as easy as walking out the front door and there's literally hundreds of thousands of people arriving daily from the same place they originated from.

Yeah, people are concerned,maybe if more concern was heeded sooner something could have been done to stop it.
 

szaromir

Banned
So wait, you are less informed than I am?

By European Conservative I meant a political party in Europe that has right to centre conservative leanings much like our own here in the U.S. Less radical only in economic policy. The only other differences being a few issues on the death penalty and a more socialist oriented economy.

How are they not anti-immigration with the stances the newly elected "Law and Justice" politicians they've shown in the past elections?

What does their current policy that they are now deciding not to honor in response to an attack from a group of individuals who were more than likely not even refugees less than 24 hours later suggest?

It certainly doesn't scream "Open-Door", and once again I'm not talking about the government from eariler this year who let Ukrainian refugees in, and agreed to mitigate 7,000 the hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding Europe.

I'm wondering how any of that is Anti-Polish considering I'm literally listing the stances on issues they have commented on relating to their country.

Edit: "Law and Order" Party? I watch too much goddamn TV....
I have very strong dislike for the Law and Justice party since about 2005. However, the issue of immigrants is much deeper than you're trying to present. They've been against allowing refugees from the middle east in due to the perceived failure of integration of middle-eastern immigrants in the western countries. They also dislike the fact that the UE tries or tried to impose the number of allocated refugees as it's perceived as an attack on Polish independence.

Most importantly, they have no intentions of stopping the flow of immigrants from Ukraine.
 
Wow. Over 100k morons.

Forget ISIS, I'm more worried about living in a country alongside these jebends.

Really?
The petition is reactionary, yes, but if it turns out that terrorists are amongst the Syrian refugees, can you really blame the population at large for turning everyone away? It's OTT but I'd hardly call people 'morons', or more of a worry than ISIS..
 
Please read the links I provide before asking questions already answered.

There is already a war against ISIS. In Cameroun, in Sinai, in Mali, in Syria, in Iraq. Is it working ? No. It doesn't even bring a statu quo. Spending billions and billions in dropping bombs and deploying ground soldiers is distracting the States from the solutions that could stop the growth and kill ISIS from the inside.

Google translation is very hard to read, sorry ^^. Anyway, I still think you have to wipe out ISIS first. I can't see another way
 
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