I've been on a bit of a Persona high again since playing P5, and I just got the first 6 volumes of the P4 manga, but....
They're quite a bit bigger than I expected lol. Gonna make organizing my shelf more annoying with stuff from Seven Seas too. Oh well, I'll probably order the P3 manga once I get my paycheck this week too.
The concert in august is going to be awesome. Finally some P5 music and this venue is even bigger than Budokan. It makes me so happy to see the success of these shows. Going back to the Akasaka Blitz dvd it really hits you how small the venue is in comparison.
Is it just me or is Narukami's facial expression a bit weird on that cover?
My first persona was 4golden, never played a SMT game so it was my introduction to this series and world. Loved the crap out of it, dropped over 100 hours and it got to the point that my wife banned the word senpai from the house due to its high frequency in that game.
While playing that friends would talk up P3 and pushed me hard to play it once I was done with golden. I popped in P3:Fes and played maybe 2 hours before just not clicking at all which bummed me out. So instead I moved onto other things and eventually played Tokyo Mirage and really enjoyed that. Fast forward some more and Persona 5 comes out and I blow through that another 100+ hour save and I think I enjoyed the package more then 4.
I was able to pull more friends in who never played persona to play 5 as their first and they all really enjoyed it. Still riding that persona high we all decided to play P3 and P4 in that order to get a complete experience. A few of us played P3P and I decided to return to FES.
Two of my friends gave up after a few months due to not really liking the dungeon design, one made it to a specific ending and opted to keep that ending and put the game down instead of trying for another ending. Now i'm the slow mover since I don't have a ton of time and I just made it to mid November and the game still isn't clicking for me. The only thing keeping me going was the collective social experience of playing while others were also playing. Talking about moments and characters but that motivation is gone now.
I have friends that swear by this game, and I can see here on almost every persona thread people love the hell out of it. I think maybe I should have played P3P and the FMC or something because specific moments in this game fell utterly flat for me and I wonder if it would have been better in that version of the game.
Question-Specific P3 event spoiler late game
Was I supposed to care when Shinjiro died? I felt like I only had him for a month and apparently he was going to die anyway? When that happened and the whole party started getting weepy over the event it reminded me of something similar in another game which I thought also was out of place.
I assume that a FMC can do a social link with him and maybe that added some stakes to the situation but man that moment is when I completely lost steam on the game's narrative. If Akihiko had died it would have been a much stronger gut punch since I somewhat like him and the team getting broken up over his death would have made more sense.
I don't hate the game and I'm guessing i'm right at the end and should just finish it. I'm just disappointing after having it hyped up by friends for a decade(getting old is odd) now.
P3FES spoilers ahead! literally the whole post is spoilers
Well I finally finished the answer and my opinion of it has greatly improved. I think it's clear that the answer serves two purposes, to make absolutely 100% sure the audience understood the message of the ending, and give us insight into the struggle of a post nyx world for the members of SEES. It featured so many ridiculously emotional character moments, but I think the reason I originally didn't have a great opinion of it the first time up is because whenever it isn't dealing with the characters directly it's basically just beating the (not totally) subtle message of the ending of the journey into our heads..
Ultimately though the good outweighs the meh,Yuka-tan being a total bitch was actually something that ended up being one of the emotional highlights for me. She wasn't trying to be a bitch she was just actually so totally ruined from the vanilla ending but she hadn't just realized how absolutely fucked up she was. She was willing to give everything she had built away for just one chance to maybe do it over again, she was in 100% desperation mode. That scene in the lounge where everyone was going at it was simultaneously depressing and exhilarating, seeing characters reveal what they had learned and taken away from the journey and whether or not they were going to throw it all away was awesome. Having mitsuru tell everyone to hang on to their evokers right before the credits because the fight against yourself is eternal was great. A lot of the speeches and moments towards the end really make the answer a strong transition into P4 by the way. A lot of "seeking the truth" and "shadows of ourselves" stuff.
Junpei in The Answer basically solidified himself as my favorite character in quite possibly the entire franchise, the amount of growth he has throughout the entire game is ridiculous. He retains that light heartedness about him but where early on it was clearly just a facade now it feels truly genuine and it's because he's made peace with everything in his life and he has gained a strong resolve finally knowing what he wants to do.
Honestly now that I've played P4 (finished up golden on NYE), P5 and P3 again within a such short time period of time I think I can safely say. P3 > P4 > P5 for the hashino games. Absolutely no question. While P4 will always hold a special place in my heart, I don't think it has the same weight to it as P3 does. But I might just have to replay P4 again haha.
I do think that the ending to The Answer had some stumbles, well the answer in general had a lot of stumbles, the main non character story developments were ridiculously spread out and if you weren't that into dungeon crawling I could see that killing a lot of interest for people. Honestly the whole experience could have been cut down from 20ish hours to about 12 solid hours if they just gave you a compendium and doubled XP gains. It would keep you from having to do "fusion fodder" expeditions and leveling up personas / team mates you weren't using but now suddenly find your self needing to use. 25hrs is far too long for what the answer actually is and I think a 12 hour epilogue would have been great.
As for the stumbles I was talking about, metis while a pretty fun character feels very much like a plot device on legs (which she actually is and I knew that walking in but a character shouldn't feel like that right out of the box), Fuuka barely got any additional characterization which further cemented her as a character that's there mostly for gameplay reasons than for story in my mind.
Also just one final note, the boss fights in the answer were fucking spectacular. Every encounter was great, the ???? fight was amazing and the colosseum fights were probably the highlight. Erberus was kind of a wimp compared to nyx but that might just be me!
Was I supposed to care when Shinjiro died? I felt like I only had him for a month and apparently he was going to die anyway? When that happened and the whole party started getting weepy over the event it reminded me of something similar in another game which I thought also was out of place.
I assume that a FMC can do a social link with him and maybe that added some stakes to the situation but man that moment is when I completely lost steam on the game's narrative. If Akihiko had died it would have been a much stronger gut punch since I somewhat like him and the team getting broken up over his death would have made more sense.
I don't hate the game and I'm guessing i'm right at the end and should just finish it. I'm just disappointing after having it hyped up by friends for a decade(getting old is odd) now.
FES is the superior experience if you ask me and regarding your point here, for me what hit me hard wasn't losing shinji it was slowly seeing what shinji meant to some of the party members. For Ken losing shinji gave him immense realization that the way he was living was wrong, and for Mitsuru and Akihiko losing shinji really made them realize that this isn't just an activity they do, they're all actually fighting for something. It's also the first step in our main casts journey to the main theme of the game " earning to accept death and living your life". Hell those little moments when Akihiko does something bad ass and wipes the enemy out in a fight and right before the EXP screen comes up he poses and says "didja see that shinji?" are touching. I don't think Shinji's death is supposed to get you in that moment as much as it's supposed to be a slow burn.
There is a way to bring him back
(and another character)
in P3P if I remember right but I think doing so honestly kinda shits on the points the game is trying to make.
I was able to pull more friends in who never played persona to play 5 as their first and they all really enjoyed it. Still riding that persona high we all decided to play P3 and P4 in that order to get a complete experience. A few of us played P3P and I decided to return to FES.
Two of my friends gave up after a few months due to not really liking the dungeon design, one made it to a specific ending and opted to keep that ending and put the game down instead of trying for another ending.
Heh, I was wondering how people introduced to the series by P5 would react to going back to the previous entries and this seems about right. A few months/years from now I expect these newcomers to match or outnumber P3/P4 fans. Many will still be able to go back to and enjoy the previous two titles, specially 4 due to some QOL stuff, but 5 will probably end up being the new favored entry.
Ain't it the best? Gameplay is a mix of interesting and dull repetition, the story beats are needlessly spread out, Metis is forced and I don't really like the final boss, but it's definitely a worthwhile experience on the whole.
Ain't it the best? Gameplay is a mix of interesting and dull repetition, the story beats are needlessly spread out, Metis is forced and I don't really like the final boss, but it's definitely a worthwhile experience on the whole.
Yeah honestly despite all of its shortcomings it's still a very strong epilogue to the whole thing, it feels really conclusive. It closes out every remaining story thread and really lets you the player also move on lol.
NG+ is not required for merely saving Shinjiro. Preventing Shinjiro's death simply requires that you max his social link and then do the post-max link event. NG+ is only required for picking who shows up on the rooftop.
Ain't it the best? Gameplay is a mix of interesting and dull repetition, the story beats are needlessly spread out, Metis is forced and I don't really like the final boss, but it's definitely a worthwhile experience on the whole.
Palace seven totally completed, seventeen days left before the deadline and I have only four S.Links left, all of them at seven or higher--Hanged Man and Devil at 8 and Empress and Tower at 7. Lost one day for a potential Empress rank due to not realizing that party members don't seem available if you secure the treasure route but have not yet sent a calling card. C'est la vie. I think I got it all wrapped up.
The boss of palace seven was seriously badass. But (regarding a major palace seven spoiler),
unless Akechi comes back later in the story I found him to be a pretty disappointingly cartoonish character in the end compared to the other villains. But I still have more story to complete, so I will hold off on permanent judgements of the game's characters until then.
Palace seven totally completed, seventeen days left before the deadline and I have only four S.Links left, all of them at seven or higher--Hanged Man and Devil at 8 and Empress and Tower at 7. Lost one day for a potential Empress rank due to not realizing that party members don't seem available if you secure the treasure route but have not yet sent a calling card. C'est la vie. I think I got it all wrapped up.
The boss of palace seven was seriously badass. But (regarding a major palace seven spoiler),
unless Akechi comes back later in the story I found him to be a pretty disappointingly cartoonish character in the end compared to the other villains. But I still have more story to complete, so I will hold off on permanent judgements of the game's characters until then.
Oh dude as long as you make sure to hit up mementos to finish up their rank 7 requests (i think it takes 2 days from the moment you finish their request until they're available for rank up again) and abuse affinity fortune telling I think you're golden for 100% confidants! Nice job.
Yeah palace 7 was awesome story wise, all the fights and the atmosphere was incredible but if yo uask me that one specific repeating puzzle got a bit grating and really started to feel like padding towards the end. Palace 6 is still my personal top palace of the game though.
Palace seven totally completed, seventeen days left before the deadline and I have only four S.Links left, all of them at seven or higher--Hanged Man and Devil at 8 and Empress and Tower at 7. Lost one day for a potential Empress rank due to not realizing that party members don't seem available if you secure the treasure route but have not yet sent a calling card. C'est la vie. I think I got it all wrapped up.
The boss of palace seven was seriously badass. But (regarding a major palace seven spoiler),
unless Akechi comes back later in the story I found him to be a pretty disappointingly cartoonish character in the end compared to the other villains. But I still have more story to complete, so I will hold off on permanent judgements of the game's characters until then.
Yeah palace 7 was awesome story wise, all the fights and the atmosphere was incredible but if yo uask me that one specific repeating puzzle got a bit grating and really started to feel like padding towards the end. Palace 6 is still my personal top palace of the game though.
is really annoying in palace 4. Every time a puzzle is presented to the player, she pipes in and basically explains how to solve the puzzle. It would've been nice if they had at least turned off her hints for Hard mode, it's not like the puzzles are difficult anyway.
is really annoying in palace 4. Every time a puzzle is presented to the player, she pipes in and basically explains how to solve the puzzle. It would've been nice if they had at least turned off her hints for Hard mode, it's not like the puzzles are difficult anyway.
Palace seven totally completed, seventeen days left before the deadline and I have only four S.Links left, all of them at seven or higher--Hanged Man and Devil at 8 and Empress and Tower at 7. Lost one day for a potential Empress rank due to not realizing that party members don't seem available if you secure the treasure route but have not yet sent a calling card. C'est la vie. I think I got it all wrapped up.
The boss of palace seven was seriously badass. But (regarding a major palace seven spoiler),
unless Akechi comes back later in the story I found him to be a pretty disappointingly cartoonish character in the end compared to the other villains. But I still have more story to complete, so I will hold off on permanent judgements of the game's characters until then.
P3FES spoilers ahead! literally the whole post is spoilers
FES is the superior experience if you ask me and regarding your point here, for me what hit me hard wasn't losing shinji it was slowly seeing what shinji meant to some of the party members. For Ken losing shinji gave him immense realization that the way he was living was wrong, and for Mitsuru and Akihiko losing shinji really made them realize that this isn't just an activity they do, they're all actually fighting for something. It's also the first step in our main casts journey to the main theme of the game " earning to accept death and living your life". Hell those little moments when Akihiko does something bad ass and wipes the enemy out in a fight and right before the EXP screen comes up he poses and says "didja see that shinji?" are touching. I don't think Shinji's death is supposed to get you in that moment as much as it's supposed to be a slow burn.
There is a way to bring him back
(and another character)
in P3P if I remember right but I think doing so honestly kinda shits on the points the game is trying to make.
I just didn't feel that emotional resonance was earned by that characters death. I think the game tried to frame him as a badass but you see so little of him that it never felt real. I also never used him and stopped using Akihko so I never got those little moments you mentioned. Returning to the dorm and having them say the same canned line over and over leaves you to try to fill blanks in for yourself. He liked cooking, he was on the team before you and left. His death catalyzed Ken but Ken is also a late game minor character that gets very little narrative time until he has a spear against his mom's killer. I can't just automatically feel bad for a specific character because the everyone has seen someone die or lost someone to even use persona powers.
Not being able to spend time with the male members of your team is a terrible design choice which they fixed in later games. I wouldn't want to resurrect someone killed for the narrative but I was told the FMC had social links with them so maybe I'd understand Ken, Akhiko, and shinjro better. Maybe I would actually care. At the end of the day Junpei isn't dead so that's good, he's the only character I like in this game and might be my favorite persona character.
Not being able to spend time with the male members of your team is a terrible design choice which they fixed in later games. I wouldn't want to resurrect someone killed for the narrative but I was told the FMC had social links with them so maybe I'd understand Ken, Akhiko, and shinjro better. Maybe I would actually care. At the end of the day Junpei isn't dead so that's good, he's the only character I like in this game and might be my favorite persona character.
For the most part I agree, shinji's death is just an event that happens. The biggest take away I got from it the first time around was "oh so people actually die in this game ok". I definitely agree that it's super lame that P3 and FES don't have any male party member social links, yet we get 3 social links related to the sports team?? It's definitely one of the larger weaknesses of P3, but I do urge that you stick with it. The game is legitimately wonderful
Also you have top tier taste my friend, Junpei is definitely up there as one of the top 3 best persona characters of all time.
For the most part I agree, shinji's death is just an event that happens. The biggest take away I got from it the first time around was "oh so people actually die in this game ok". I definitely agree that it's super lame that P3 and FES don't have any male party member social links, yet we get 3 social links related to the sports team?? It's definitely one of the larger weaknesses of P3, but I do urge that you stick with it. The game is legitimately wonderful
Also you have top tier taste my friend, Junpei is definitely up there as one of the top 3 best persona characters of all time.
Shinji's death "just happening" was the point, actually. In the artbook, the developers explicitly say that they didn't want Shinji's death to be a massive tragedy, and the intention was to portray death as a natural part of life.
First time around Shinji's death annoyed me because I'd rotated him into the party and bought him a load of equipment. At least it lets you get it back from the box outside his dorm...
As a consequence, I never bought any armour/weapons until the end game during P4 or P5. I just get by on what I can scavenge.
Shinji's death "just happening" was the point, actually. In the artbook, the developers explicitly say that they didn't want Shinji's death to be a massive tragedy, and the intention was to portray death as a natural part of life.
Really liking the cellphone mechanic in P5. Love seeing how the cast bounce off each other in messages. I also like how Joker takes pictures at very specific moments but I hate how we can't see them when we want.
Oh, and... I experienced the Morgana
having self doubt and leaving to meet up with Haru arc
a few days ago and I pretty much hate how Joker (the one who should be the most vocal/emotional out of everyone... yet Ann was?!) doesn't have voiced lines. I get that he's calm but seeing him with his hands in his pockets while a good friend of his is going through drama is very annoying. And I like Ryuji but Joker should've punched him or something scornful during that scene (I actually think this plays to a bigger issue how social link Ryuji wouldn't have said that but regular game Ryuji does... but that's another discussion).
Please, Atlus... PLEASE... let the next Persona MC have voiced dialogue options and awesome portraits like everybody else. PLEASE.
!!! And I'm at Palace 5. The backtracking thing is kinda annoying but still having fun with the Catherine outfits I just bought. Makoto looks so good as Katherine!
To the above: I think it's funny that all of them put their mask straight on top of their head, save for Yusuke who has to put his on the side, at an angle. Such an artist.
Also, I think it's kinda cute how makoto and futaba usually use each other for support during anime cutscenes, lol.
i got really sad when i realized the moving black lines at the bottom Joker's portrait during negotiations were just black lines and not him wiggling his fingers
Can we also talk about how expressive Joker is in that particular cutscene? It's like he temporarily drops the act of being a flamboyant Phantom Thief and is genuinely happy that
Ryuji did the thing.
Also he actually speaks, but the game doesn't subtitle it. P5 Reaaaaally makes you question the necessity of a silent protagonist.
Can we also talk about how expressive Joker is in that particular cutscene? It's like he temporarily drops the act of being a flamboyant Phantom Thief and is genuinely happy that
Ryuji did the thing.
Also he actually speaks, but the game doesn't subtitle it. P5 Reaaaaally makes you question the necessity of a silent protagonist.
But yeah! Joker does have some really cool portraits. I really like the one where he's holding his bangs (hair) and looking deep in thought.
I just wished he had cool manga style cutout portraits like everybody else. He also just needs more portraits in general.
Thats why... I really enjoy playing as Joker in battles. He's talking and he's in his element. So much personality is there. The voice actor for Joker did an amazing job... but it would be tremendous if he actually voiced dialogue options.
I'm fine with silent protagonists. I can't say it's ever bothered me. Especially in Persona games. To me, there's something satisfying about it. I fill in the blanks with my imagination.
That said, I don't like to be so rigid that I'd trash the idea of atlus ever trying it. The Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games ever because they have such a well defined protagonist that the dialogue choices feel natural regardless of which stance you choose to take.
I'm fine with silent protagonists. I can't say it's ever bothered me. Especially in Persona games. To me, there's something satisfying about it. I fill in the blanks with my imagination.
This is where I stand too. Weirdly enough, some of my favorite JRPG MCs are silent protagonists, and I'm not sure whether that speaks well of the way they're portrayed in-game or the general (lack of) quality of JRPG protagonists. As usual, the correct answer is probably "a little bit of both".
Case in point, I like silent Yu better than talkative Yu. I could project a better personality to the former than the latter actually provided me.
Anime Yu beats both tho
Silent Samus is also better than Other M Samus.
That said, I feel like Persona could benefit a lot from a well written MC. Social Links would feel like two characters actually talking and interacting with each other which would make relationships less one sided, and Persona protagonists usually have somewhat defined personalities anyway. Joker already feels like his own character, really.
That's kind of the thing. Yu has enough personality through his character design and dialogue choices that I can make him an interesting enough character in my head. When you take all that and make him a specific character, well, it's up to the writing team to make him awesome.
It's funny, Yu is one of my favorite protagonists in any game yet he has no dialogue. There's something that's really appealing about him, through his design and dialogue options. You saw in the Giant Bomb endurance run how they made "Charlie" into such a specific character that had their voice. It's enjoyable.
That is NOT to say that Persona can't have a voiced protagonist or that silent protagonists are superior to voiced ones. Obviously you have certain oddities with silent protagonists, like the Morgana situation that Mediking brought up. There's going to be times where the story has to go through hoops to accomodate a silent protagonist and that gets messy. But I never fully understood all the complaints against them because I think they have value in certain situations.
Anyway, I think the final boss track, while the weakest of the modern persona games, is going to sound absolutely fantastic live.
I'm fine with silent protagonists. I can't say it's ever bothered me. Especially in Persona games. To me, there's something satisfying about it. I fill in the blanks with my imagination.
That said, I don't like to be so rigid that I'd trash the idea of atlus ever trying it. The Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games ever because they have such a well defined protagonist that the dialogue choices feel natural regardless of which stance you choose to take.
I think it works well when there are blanks to fill. Like Yu is pretty much the perfect example, for the exact reasons you've stated. With a memorable design, varied dialogue choices and tons of ways to play him, it was incredibly easy to imagine your "own" kind of Yu. Joker's not quite the same though. You have this guy with a defined backstory, a flamboyant and "flashy" Phantom Thief Persona, and generally consistent dialogue prompts It's pretty much impossible to imagine him as anything other than the character they've set up. He also occasionally speaks during cutscenes!
This is further compounded by how scenes are handled in P5. P4 did a good job of balancing Yu's interactions with the group as a leader. But Joker has roughly the same amount of dialogue prompts as Yu did in P4, but the scenes go on for waaaay longer, so you have Joker sitting there saying nothing for long stretches of time. It's jarring, and I think it would have been a better overall experience if they just made him talk ala Vincent.
This is further compounded by how scenes are handled in P5. P4 did a good job of balancing Yu's interactions with the group as a leader. But Joker has roughly the same amount of dialogue prompts as Yu did in P4, but the scenes go on for waaaay longer, so you have Joker sitting there saying nothing for long stretches of time. It's jarring, and I think it would have been a better overall experience if they just made him talk ala Vincent.
That's kind of the thing. Yu has enough personality through his character design and dialogue choices that I can make him an interesting enough character in my head. When you take all that and make him a specific character, well, it's up to the writing team to make him awesome.
It's funny, Yu is one of my favorite protagonists in any game yet he has no dialogue. There's something that's really appealing about him, through his design and dialogue options. You saw in the Giant Bomb endurance run how they made "Charlie" into such a specific character that had their voice. It's enjoyable.
That is NOT to say that Persona can't have a voiced protagonist or that silent protagonists are superior to voiced ones. Obviously you have certain oddities with silent protagonists, like the Morgana situation that Mediking brought up. There's going to be times where the story has to go through hoops to accomodate a silent protagonist and that gets messy. But I never fully understood all the complaints against them because I think they have value in certain situations.
Anyway, I think the final boss track, while the weakest of the modern persona games, is going to sound absolutely fantastic live.
I can appreciate a silent protagonist. It works well in Pokemon and Dragon Quest.
But the fact that Joker doesn't have anything voiced with that Morgana
self doubt Arc
just totally bothered me. He should've been the most emotional driven guy yet Futaba and Ann seemed more upset than HIM? What the hell? Morgana is with Joker pretty much 24/7 and will almost always be there for him. And like I said.... Joker should've punched Ryuji or yelled at him or just SOMETHING! Yet he stood there with his hands in his pockets...
AND TO MAKE IT WORSE... SOCIAL LINK RYUJI WOULDN'T HAVE EVER SAID THAT TO MORGANA IN THE FIRST PLACE YET REGULAR GAME RYUJI DID! That's another issue I'm having. Social link Ryuji is showing growth and great character development. Regular game Ryuji is too but social link Ryuji WOULD HAVE NEVER said that! He's far more considerate of people's feelings! Damn!
I haven't beat the game yet so if anybody feels like I wasn't vague enough then I'll spoiler tag that entire comment. Lol
AND TO MAKE IT WORSE... SOCIAL LINK RYUJI WOULDN'T HAVE EVER SAID THAT TO MORGANA IN THE FIRST PLACE YET REGULAR GAME RYUJI DID! That's another issue I'm having. Social link Ryuji is showing growth and great character development. Regular game Ryuji is too but social link Ryuji WOULD HAVE NEVER said that! He's far more considerate of people's feelings! Damn!
It's probably been mentioned before, but I think that P5 struggles with having characters seem consistent between main story scenes and confidant ones. Some are fine (like Yusuke, Haru, and Futaba) while others (Ryuji and Ann) seem just different enough to cause a bit of a disconnect. Ignoring the quality of the character stories themselves, I don't remember this being an issue with P3 or P4.
