If you ask me, no direct control isn't nearly as big of an issue as it sounds like. The tactics system in Persona 3 is far better than the neutered one seen in Persona 4, and save for one or two minor issues you generally don't run into issues. But to each their own.
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Persona Community Thread |OT9| SPOILER TAGS OR DIE
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
If you ask me, no direct control isn't nearly as big of an issue as it sounds like. The tactics system in Persona 3 is far better than the neutered one seen in Persona 4, and save for one or two minor issues you generally don't run into issues. But to each their own.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
It's always bothered me that they neutered the AI control in P4 and P5. I get adding direct control, but why take all of the cool tactics of P3 and trim it down to three mostly useless ones?
Dunno. I'm honestly surprised the tactics option still exists in Persona 5, given it is functionally worthless with the changes they've done to combat.
CrimsonFist
Member
Tactics is even still the default in Persona 5, although guess that's mostly for tutorial purposes.
I think changing the tactics before other party members join up results in everyone joining up with direct commands? I changed Morgana in the tutorial, and Ryuji and everyone else joined with direct commands already set.
The problems I have with No Control are twofold.
So you have this RPG with varied characters and a bunch of different skills right? It's only natural to want to try them out whenever you want. Except you're at the complete whims of the A.I. Mitsuru just got Mind Charge? Well, you need to guide her into using it instead of being able to use it whenever you like. That's an area where 1/2 and 4/5 beat 3 in; the characters are more fun.
The 2nd issue is the lack of depth in party commands. The issue isn't the difficulty, and Mitsuru using Marin Karin is a dumb meme (though having to constantly change her tactics is incredibly tedious), but rather, the inability to perform complex moves is impossible. It's impossible to make a character do One More > One More > Healing, for example. So bosses end up taking longer due to how inefficient the characters are. Oh and don't even think about dying to a boss, or you'll always suffer characters using an attack a boss is immune to.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I disagree with this. I think the AI adds to the variety, because now the characters use their moves in a different way than I ever would. Take the meme-level Mitsuru and Marin Karin. I rarely if ever use status skills, but when it's out of my hands that skill actually gets use. I thought of it less as guiding the characters to use the same tactics I use in every JRPG, and instead as a chance for the game systems to get me to try out new things. Plus, it stopped every character from being an extension of myself, which fits a game like Persona.
In response to this point, I'd say AI control just changes what a complex move is. I think using tactics effectively in P3 provides a similar type of satisfaction as using gambits does in FFXII. The actual moves pulled off aren't anything special, but working together as a team is.
I think P4 has the same problem of stopping you from pulling off complex moves, but that's more because there just . . . weren't many interesting moves to pull off. P5 addresses that to some degree with baton passes and technical attacks, but P4 is an odd evolutionary step in that it doesn't have the unique feel of P3 or the (comparative) depth of P5. Definitely a necessary step though.
Yeah, Persona 4 didn't really add much to the combat. Sure did take away a few things tho. The biggest changes that Persona 4 brought to the table were one of structure.
Even Persona 5, which I think is a huge step up, still has elements hanging from Nocturne and Persona 3 that could be gotten rid off. The one that bothers me the most is the eight ability limit for party members, when they're already super specialized as is.
The variety you mentioned is an illusion though. In other games, the player is always given the freedom to use those moves at any time. You simply choose not too use them because they'd bad and unsatisfying which is entirely on you. A limited A.I using those moves against your consent doesn't add more variety; if anything, it makes things even more predictable. But again, that's not my main issue here. For example, the Mitsuru meme isn't even accurate because simply changing her tactics from Act Freely stops from spamming Marin Karin. But the simple fact that you don't have full access to Mitsuru is the issue here. RPGs are great because of the freedom they allow (this is incidentally why the Persona battle system veers towards the weaker side; not too many options) and P3 utterly failed in that regard. That sense of joy and elation you get when a character learns a new move after leveling up, or when the hours you spend mastering an ability pays off... P3 was absolutely awful in that regard.
Like Junpei just got Marakkukaja and I want to experiment with that, I don't want him to dick around the support tactic option, I just want to USE it, right NOW.
This is true, to an extent. There's something nice about working together towards taking down a trying boss, but the immersion breaks when the boss just ends up being fairly simplistic, but tedious. A boss that would take say, 30 turns to defeat in P3 would take 15 in another RPG simply because the battle flow. You always have to plan around your limited A.I, sometimes to frustrating effect. If the protagonist is at 88HP and Akihiko's at 83HP, Aki's getting priority on healing, despite the fact that an protagonist death = instant game over. It's not really that difficult to play around (most of the time) but it still sucks how you can count on your healer being limited and weak. It only really comes together during the final boss, where it truly feels like a mental endurance test, and overcome it is super satisfying.
Well P3, P4 and P5 are all incredibly shallow RPGs in general, so there wasn't much strategy outside of simple buffing/debuffing and damage control. The main thing to note is enemy design. P3 had good miniboss design but atrocious boss design. P4 had good miniboss/boss design, and P5's somewhere in the middle (though on Hard, it's better than P4's).
I'll give you P3 and P4, but I disagree with Persona 5 here. Persona 5 is a huge step up from the previous two games in regards to enemy design on almost every level.
The only boss that I've felt really faltered in Persona 5 so far is
Shadow Kunikazu
The ability to switch characters mid-battle is great it is almost a shame its hidden behind a confidant.
P5 adds a lot of over P3/4, being able to switch to a healer after a critical has saved me a lot. In 3&4 I would have to use healing items, now I can get in a hit and heal! Oh enemy is weak to ice and MC doesn't have a persona with bufu? Let me just switch to Yusuke. On one hand this makes the game easier but the enemies have gotten upgrades to like the hostage mechanic.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I've never even thought of the 8 ability limit as something that could be changed, it just seemed like something that just was. It does make me think about how interesting it might be to listen in on how decisions like that are made. Like, does someone suggest 10 abilties and get argued out of the room? Is that something they even dwell on?
I think we're arguing past one another here. I see what you're saying--and I think it's a valid complaint in a sense--but it's not really the kind of variety I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the variety of tactics within P3, but rather how P3 provides some variety in comparison to other JRPGs. I agree that as a general rule the modern Persona battle system is kinda weak, but I think it showed off a unique strength in P3.
Take the bolded for example. In most JRPGs, I know it's the character that's learned an ability, but it's still me that's using it (Junpei got marakukaja, and *I* want to use it now, to borrow your example). So characters act independently in story scenes, but suddenly become weird, marionette extensions of the player in battle. I thought P3 was cool because it removed that disconnect, even if doing so brought a ton of other problems with it. These other disconnect issues (like your example of a boss taking 30 turns when it could have been 15) seemed like a change of pace. I could rationalize these problems as teenagers being shitty fighters, for example. P3 made me think about the role of combat in a JRPG differently than most other games on the market. That's the kind of variety I was trying to get at.
Right, I get where you're coming from now. For a battle fiend like myself, it wasn't that enjoyable of an experience, but I could picture myself really liking it if I allowed myself to immerse myself. Like I said it earlier, when it works... it works. Sometimes battle feel reminiscent of how they were in the P3 movie for example. Other times, well...
Yeah, a lot of the neater features are locked behind confidents. It's a nice incentive on paper, but the execution is questionable. It was really annoying to go through the
5th Palace, and not have Baton pass unlocked for Haru. Felt really refreshing that Goro at least got all that free.
It's something that really came to mind as I was hitting the later parts of the game, and realizing that I really don't like picking between skills on party member. Ann's Tarunda is still useful even after you get Matarunda, due to it's lower SP cost, yet you're basically forced to drop one or the other.
Persona Q has the same issue in that game, but you have more control to work around it thanks to being able to use skill cards and switch Personas freely.
The ability limit makes sense for the protagonist, and it makes sense in mainline Megami Tensei where the demons are your party members. Not so much when you're working with pre-defined party members who are already specialized.
That's an interesting way of looking at things. P3 did make me swear or be happy at my party because they were either idiots or did exactly the right thing. In the end the frustration is worse for me than the somewhat added bond. I prefer complete control; it makes the battles far better. Thinking about it some more, I think I feel more disconnect when a supposedly intelligent character makes a really dumb move.
Other point of disconnect: (end of august event spoiler)
It's funny when the guys complain about having trouble scoring girls when I just maxed ranked Ann
I don't think I mind, SP isn't a problem any more late game and you can solve it by having skills on MC. I basically use the party members as 3 permanent Personas - I keep a steady party so I know there are three element skills I don't need to watch extra for in my Persona set. My main goal of the party is to keep MC alive
While I personally don't mind it, I think Digimon Cyber Sleuth offered a good compromise on this. You can only equip a certain amount of skills at a time in battle, but you have a "backlog" of skills you can equip outside of battles. So for example, you don't need to permanently replace a weaker skill for its stronger alternative, you can swap between them whenever you feel like. P5 limits your ability to get skills back to the church, which is a half-step forward. I think the skill limit should stay because otherwise there's no choice to be made for character customization, but they could be more flexible like the example I mentioned, so you could "optmize" your skillset whenever the situation asks for it. This could also allow for more variety within your party member's skills as they wouldn't be "forced" to learn only ugrades.
As for the depth of the battle system, I think P5 on Hard actually gives you a lot of good tools to work with, specially in regards to status effects and baton pass shenanigans, and don't really agree when megaten veterans say it's still far behind the main series. I actually thought P5 was consistently more engaging than Apocalypse, only really losing in therms of boss fights, and that's just because Apocalypse has literally some of the best boss fights in the entire series.
I think P5 sits comfortably in the upper echelon of JRPG battle systems (which are, for the most part, either interesting but completely unbalanced, or just serviceable). Unless you compare it to stuff like Divinity OS or SRPGs, which isn't really fair.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
That skill customization systems sounds cool (never did play Cyber Sleuth.)
I also disagree with the idea that the mainline SMT battle system is way, way better than Persona, but that's more because I think mainline SMT isn't the best battle system around. More interesting than Persona, I'll admit, but the margin isn't that significant.
I think Hashino raised a good point in a recent interview. Turn based battles are almost more about the preparation than the battle itself, and that's where Megaten games as a whole are more interesting to me. I thought P5 made some cool advances by locking certain things behind Confidants, making it so that you were basically always deficient at something until late game or NG+. I know not everyone agrees with me on this though.
I think they could do a better job balancing out confidant unlocks, tbh. Part of this would come simply by making Persona 5 confidants less tedious to begin with. A lot of them just have silly unlock/progression requirements, and/or you're limited in the amount of free time you have. The party member(*) ones are the worst, because there's really no reason why some party members should have their confidant skills locked behind max charm or max proficiency, where as the others don't. : \
Haru
You can't even unlock her confidant until October 30th, a month after she joins the party and after you've finished her dungeon. Which means you can't get Baton Pass for her, despite the fact that everyone else likely already has it and you're probably gonna use her for most of the dungeon.
(*Not counting Futaba here, given she's not a standard party member. Still, it would have been nice for the game to inform me
she requires level 4 kindness just for her to even appear in the game world...
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I never felt that the confidants were more tedious to begin than social links, but it's been a long time since I played 3 and 4 so I might be wrong. I kinda liked that some teammates required stat gates, it made the gates seem more natural in a way. I thought 3 was the most unnatural about this. "Here are the three girls on your team. They're each related to one of your social stats!" Most teammates had their "base" skills available before the stat gate too (baton pass, their specialty like Yusuke's card duplication.)
The exception is obviously the one you spoilered.
The only positive thing I can say about that is only Ann gave you access to baton pass while you went through the Palace she was associated with. In that light, it wasn't too weird that you could never baton pass with Haru. Her stat gate, when it happens, and even how late her link starts are all weird. And how come she's just not in the game in any real way until September? Haru was just handled weirdly all around. Still best girl though.
eyeball_kid
Member
I completely agree. This is exactly why I preferred the AI-controlled party in P3, and lamented the loss of a usable one in P5.
I've mentioned this before, but each of the party members in P3 had AI that fit their personality to an extent. Akihiko used better strategies, Junpei always went for the big splashy moves, Yukari was a bit selfish and would often heal herself first instead of teammates, Ken often made rookie mistakes, reliable Koromaru often came up with the clutch spell to save the fight, and Mitsuru was stubborn in trying to dominate enemies with her will.
It really made me feel like I was just one member of the party, full of people who were young and made mistakes and let emotions get away from them during battles.
I guess it depends if you had read a guide or got lucky, because 5's confidant gating didn't feel natural to me at all. The last party member that joined, I never got above rank 1 because it was very late game when I was able to max that stat. Same with
Makoto, who was waiting for me to get more charming for a month.
They are more tedious than Persona 4 for sure, but Persona 4 has very few requirements on it's social links, and only two with mid link requirements (which are handled much better than SUDDENLY YOU NEED MAX WHATEVER)
Haru
While I did reach a few points where I needed to stop a confidant before leveling their respective stats (notably
Makoto's
Iwai's
Sojiro's
I don't know, that's one complaint about P5 I never really got. The way I see it, if you don't have some stat checks like that then what's even the point of the whole social stats system?
They're not consistent, that's the problem. Persona 3 and Persona 4 had stats checks, but they were more consistent than Persona 5's are. Even if Persona 3 had a few awkward arbitrary stat checks (Hello Yukari/Fuuka/Mitsuru!), they at least didn't spring random checks on you mid link for another stat, or some of the other silliness that Persona 5 does.
Makoto
Iwai
Chihaya
Futaba
Sojiro
Haru
Add this all on top of the fact that the game takes entire weeks of your time away from you (something that Persona 3 and 4 were significantly better about not doing), plus
the game's finale occurring much sooner than Persona 3 or even vanilla Persona 4
For better or worse P5 utilized every single day of its calendar up until the last month while vanilla P4 downright skipped entire weeks of the calendar at a time without giving you any choice in the matter (you didn't even get any events in those days either, the game just flat out told you "and then summer went by" or something to that effect), and vanilla P4 ends in the exact same month as P5, so I'm not sure they're too dissimilar in how much free time you actually get.
I can see where you're coming from, but I just never saw most of those as issues. Some confidants require different midpoint stats, but... Why is that a problem, specifically? The situations are justified. I think it's a better compromise than requiring a maxed stat just to start any given SL. As for the others, aside from the one I had already mentioned (and who could've easily been remedied by lowering the requirement to guts lvl 2), I actually forgot about
Sojiro
Other than those more egregious examples, I guess we just see these things differently as none of the others strikes me as tedious or unnatural. If anything, I think making the social sim part of the game feel more involved/"gamey" and require tangible progress is a good thing.
CrimsonFist
Member
They do, it just locks once you reach the points for the next rank, which takes a while.
Because on a fist playthrough there's no way of knowing which stats you'll need until you basically hit the wall, and on max runs it's tedious because you have to near perfectly manage your time.
I actually think
Iwai
They don't, actually. It is entirely possible to waste time with
Sojiro
CrimsonFist
Member
eyeball_kid
Member
As someone who was only able to max
Ann, Makoto, and I think Ryuji
and never got Haru past rank 1 -- I had no baton pass for her the whole game!!
I didn't manage my time perfectly on my playthrough and still managed to max my confidants a week or so before the deadline, giving me enough time to get the videogame and fishing trophies (and the latter was surprisingly fun, so I just spent the last days of the game doing that
). I even lost a few days doing menial tasks like laundry and coffee (before unlocking the temperance perk) and hanging out with Mishima and Yusuke (without actually needing the affection points because I didn't know they didn't carry over to the next rank). Meanwhile, despite giving you more days to work with, P3 required much more min-maxing than P5 does, to the point I couldn't even max my party SLinks (besides Aigis) before the end of the game.P5's midpoint stat checks give you a perfectly reasonable amount of time to work on improving them, you don't really need to prepare ahead of time. I saw them as encouragements to focus on said stats.
No disagreements there,
Iwai
Haru
See, that was my exact opposite experience
camequipped
Member
Just wondering if I need to grind on normal difficulty? I'm still early days into day, currently in the first palace which should be close to the end.
What difficulty did you play on, Lynx? I imagine how fast you finish the dungeons is going to be a factor in that too.
Is that so? It shouldn't even offer the option, tbh.
No, you shouldn't need to grind on normal difficulty in Persona 5, at least not to any significant degree. The worst you'll have to do is probably get new Personas.
Is that so? It shouldn't even offer the option, tbh.
No, you shouldn't need to grind on normal difficulty in Persona 5, at least not to any significant degree. The worst you'll have to do is probably get new Personas.
On P5 or P3? Hard for P5, Normal for P3. (Very Hard on my recent P4G playthrough, let's see how I manage this time. Last time I could only max my party members, Dojima, Nanako and... I guess balls guy and the nurse? I can't remember) Dungeons 1, 2 and 3 took me the longest, but I managed the rest in the lowest amount of days possible.
SP Adhesives
In regards to the spoiler:
I actually don't like the SP restoring accessories at all. They're way too powerful, and remove almost all choices as far as dungeon exploring go. Would much rather seem them removed in a re-release. But this goes back to what I was saying earlier about holdovers from Persona 3 that really should be done away with.
I don't like them either for the exact same reason you didn't. But if anything, I expect the changes in a rerelease to break the game even further rather than fixing it. Using Golden as a barometer, it seems they prefer giving the player even stronger tools to work with rather than removing overpowered options.
eyeball_kid
Member
I didn't find them overpowered at all on Hard, but
I still prefer the P3 dungeon gating where the party just got tired and eventually peaced out on you. It felt more realistic and provided a natural pacing for players (and probably made it easier for devs to pace the narrative against).
I only gave one to the MC. Without them, the placement of save points in several palaces was such that I was scraping the last dregs of my party SP trying to survive until I could save. Partly because Sojiro was blocked due to the stat gate and I had no coffee or curry available.
I still prefer the P3 dungeon gating where the party just got tired and eventually peaced out on you. It felt more realistic and provided a natural pacing for players (and probably made it easier for devs to pace the narrative against).
camequipped
Member
Thanks! I'm happy to do so since the combat is enjoyable but won't go out of my way to grind if it doesn't require that. Still have nightmares about a certain boss in FFX and got stuck since I overwrote my save game..
Cannon_Fodder
Member
Agreed, those accessories seemed to do more harm than good to me, so I never used them. I played on hard, and finished every dungeon in the minimum amount of time except
the spaceport. That took an extra day. A lifesaver for me was the vending machine beside the laundromat. I bought the cheap SP drinks every chance I got, and then used those when I needed that last push to get to a safe room.
Using the
accessories
Anyway, I don't know whether I like P4G's new shuffle time better or worse than the original. I didn't care for the minigame approach of P3 and P4 so just picking which card you want is definitely an improvement, but on the other hand if you get lucky even once you can pretty much get stuck in a Sweep loop and keep getting insane bonuses every single battle. Like, I had one dungeon run where I kept getting all the cards every single time and got far on Yukiko's dungeon with a considerable amount of HP and SP, all my SP items intact, chest keys, stats up, free Personas LVL Up and new Personas... Only to then get sweeped by a single Dice at full HP because of Last Resort bullshit and losing that entire run (and people complain about safe room distances in P5 >_>). Then on my second run I couldn't get a single shuffle sweep, no chest keys, no Persona level ups, one less Persona card than on my last run, and got to the same floor I was last time with barely any SP left and no items. Talk about a swingy system.
A Dead Diehard
Member
HeheheheahAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
In all seriousness, the nothing that was Ultimax's story doesn't make me think future titles are worth my time, Sho or no.
You're all crazy,
SP adhesives are great.
You can do the palaces in way less in game time. Meaning you have more days for other activities. It doesn't change the dungeon experience, you still do all of it but in less ingame time. Next to those long trips to Mementos, again making you waste less time. Metaverse trips take up two activity slots effectively. Especially because most people do one run and as such want the most out of it.
You can do the palaces in way less in game time. Meaning you have more days for other activities. It doesn't change the dungeon experience, you still do all of it but in less ingame time. Next to those long trips to Mementos, again making you waste less time. Metaverse trips take up two activity slots effectively. Especially because most people do one run and as such want the most out of it.
From a gameplay standpoint, they're pretty silly. Rest assured, no good developer wants their playerbase using one accessory to such a degree that they don't even consider the others. For dungeon crawling, they are supreme. I expect they'll be nerfed in any potential re-release, possibly replaced with a non-accessory solution to restoring SP.
I suspect they're a reason why some players got burnt out on the dungeons
I actually think a tiredness mechanic in the dungeons would work well.. Because of the time restraint mechanics of the game people feel they have to rush the whole things in one go, I think it would be a lot better balanced if you were forced to do them in 3 chunks or something similar
It would certainly help with the 5th and 7th palaces in particular
It would certainly help with the 5th and 7th palaces in particular
No really surprise the way the story treat itself , like "the epic conclusion , the grand finale...BUT here your new favorite character Sho , he is now in a new journey like Labrys , look forward to his adventures
as the P5 Hero
That's true, it does make all the other accessories redundant.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
Some thoughts from my NG+ playthrough, spoilers up until September:
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The lead up to Okumura's Palace is somehow worse than I remember, and I really didn't like it the first time. I still don't really get why Ryuji and Morgana started fighting at that exact moment. Feels more like plot convenience more than anything.
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On the plus side, I like Haru's awakening more than I remembered. Such a good character to be mishandled in some ways.
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I honestly think Morgana is my least favourite party member in the modern Persona games. He's like Teddie without the endearing qualities; like Junpei without maturing out of his jealous streak; all with the added bonus of an uninteresting story with weak payoff. Best use in combat is to heal people after the fight. I'm really not a fan.
Star Orpheus
Member
Gonna be honest, I don't hate Sho. Now he's easily the worst of the spin off characters but he just doesn't bug me as much as it does other people. Course I also like Marie so I guess I'm just weird.
I feel he needed a chapter showing us his past like Labrys'. Actually seeing what messed her up made a huge impact. The fact we're only told Sho's past and don't really get a feel for his thoughts was a mistake.
My very hard experience on P4G so far (dungeon 1, expect general spoilers for that)
-The enemies on higher floors are tanky as hell and hit like a train. Some of them are so troublesome to deal with I had to run away towards the end of the run. I like it better this way because it puts more emphasis on each individual encounter and even with Player Advantage you can't just sweep them quickly. However, I also feel like the game doesn't exactly give you good tools to deal with some of them this early in the game, so it ends up being more of an endurance test. I miss P5's reliable and readily available status effect spells.
-Lots of game overs. Some OHKOs for good measure. I must be the only person in the world with a higher death count on Persona than Nocturne lmao
-Exploration is as shallow as I remember, even if you don't compare it to P5's palaces, but I did forget that dungeon crawling in the early parts of the game can actually be fun for what they are. It's the lack of balance later in the game and the repetitive layouts that end up souring the experience, but the first few are alright.
-The reduced Exp hasn't been a problem even with no grinding, but oooh boy that money income. Feels like my life! Yu truly is the most relatable
-Shadow Yukiko is no (P5 palace 2 spoilers)
. I also still feel like the dirty laundry escalation in the first arc is odd. Like,
"I used my crush's death as an excuse to seek some excitement in this shithole of a town" yikes, that's a little messed up dude.
"I'm jealous/resentful of my best friend and use her as an emotional crutch to feel better about myself!" wow what a bitch!
"I'm sick and tired of the obligations/expectations placed upon me and wish someone would help me!" ...Okay. Sure, I get that. Anything else...?
Not complaining, it just feels a little backwards.
Also, I had been wondering why there are so many pacing complaints for P5 comparatively to P4 despite them sharing the same structure so I've been paying extra attention to that... And yeah, P4 is much faster on a day to day basis. Like I imagined, P5's problem isn't story pacing but rather gameplay pacing. Days in P5 can sometimes feel a little bloated between party member dialogue, public reactions to the recent story events, train dialogue, overhearing a conversation on the way to school, class, text messages in classes, text messages at night, stat gains taking a lot more time because of the little animation, repeated dialogue, taking trips to pay for Fortune's perks, etc. All these little things add up and it makes P5 feel slower than its predecessors. In P4 you start and end a day with pretty much no outside interference inbetween and it's great. You also still get to do stuff at night even after story events, and that helps a lot in making the player feel like he still has agency. P5 does this, I imagine, because the palace deadlines are much longer than in P4 so theoretically you're getting a similar amount of free time, but it doesn't feel that way because story and gameplay sections are so segregated from one another. This never particularly bothered me, but I can see where the complaints are coming from much more clearly now. It also reinforces my belief that the calendar structure wasn't the issue in regards to pacing.
Anyway, I'll stop writing these huge posts for a while. lol
-The enemies on higher floors are tanky as hell and hit like a train. Some of them are so troublesome to deal with I had to run away towards the end of the run. I like it better this way because it puts more emphasis on each individual encounter and even with Player Advantage you can't just sweep them quickly. However, I also feel like the game doesn't exactly give you good tools to deal with some of them this early in the game, so it ends up being more of an endurance test. I miss P5's reliable and readily available status effect spells.
-Lots of game overs. Some OHKOs for good measure. I must be the only person in the world with a higher death count on Persona than Nocturne lmao
-Exploration is as shallow as I remember, even if you don't compare it to P5's palaces, but I did forget that dungeon crawling in the early parts of the game can actually be fun for what they are. It's the lack of balance later in the game and the repetitive layouts that end up souring the experience, but the first few are alright.
-The reduced Exp hasn't been a problem even with no grinding, but oooh boy that money income. Feels like my life! Yu truly is the most relatable
-Shadow Yukiko is no (P5 palace 2 spoilers)
Shadow Madarame on Hard, but she's tougher than Kamoshida
"I used my crush's death as an excuse to seek some excitement in this shithole of a town" yikes, that's a little messed up dude.
"I'm jealous/resentful of my best friend and use her as an emotional crutch to feel better about myself!" wow what a bitch!
"I'm sick and tired of the obligations/expectations placed upon me and wish someone would help me!" ...Okay. Sure, I get that. Anything else...?
Not complaining, it just feels a little backwards.
Also, I had been wondering why there are so many pacing complaints for P5 comparatively to P4 despite them sharing the same structure so I've been paying extra attention to that... And yeah, P4 is much faster on a day to day basis. Like I imagined, P5's problem isn't story pacing but rather gameplay pacing. Days in P5 can sometimes feel a little bloated between party member dialogue, public reactions to the recent story events, train dialogue, overhearing a conversation on the way to school, class, text messages in classes, text messages at night, stat gains taking a lot more time because of the little animation, repeated dialogue, taking trips to pay for Fortune's perks, etc. All these little things add up and it makes P5 feel slower than its predecessors. In P4 you start and end a day with pretty much no outside interference inbetween and it's great. You also still get to do stuff at night even after story events, and that helps a lot in making the player feel like he still has agency. P5 does this, I imagine, because the palace deadlines are much longer than in P4 so theoretically you're getting a similar amount of free time, but it doesn't feel that way because story and gameplay sections are so segregated from one another. This never particularly bothered me, but I can see where the complaints are coming from much more clearly now. It also reinforces my belief that the calendar structure wasn't the issue in regards to pacing.
Anyway, I'll stop writing these huge posts for a while. lol
I think Morgana being the weakest Phantom Thief will always be a truth buried under 'RYUJI SUX, HARU IS 2 BORING, etc." There's just no getting around how disappointing he ended up being. And the "go to bed" mechanic doesn't even bother me, but when you spend an entire game building up to some grand reveal the payoff better be fucking substantial.
My very hard experience on P4G so far (dungeon 1, expect general spoilers for that)
-The enemies on higher floors are tanky as hell and hit like a train. Some of them are so troublesome to deal with I had to run away towards the end of the run. I like it better this way because it puts more emphasis on each individual encounter and even with Player Advantage you can't just sweep them quickly. However, I also feel like the game doesn't exactly give you good tools to deal with some of them this early in the game, so it ends up being more of an endurance test. I miss P5's reliable and readily available status effect spells.
-Lots of game overs. Some OHKOs for good measure. I must be the only person in the world with a higher death count on Persona than Nocturne lmao
-Exploration is as shallow as I remember, even if you don't compare it to P5's palaces, but I did forget that dungeon crawling in the early parts of the game can actually be fun for what they are. It's the lack of balance later in the game and the repetitive layouts that end up souring the experience, but the first few are alright.
-The reduced Exp hasn't been a problem even with no grinding, but oooh boy that money income. Feels like my life! Yu truly is the most relatable
-Shadow Yukiko is no (P5 palace 2 spoilers). I also still feel like the dirty laundry escalation in the first arc is odd. Like,Shadow Madarame on Hard, but she's tougher than Kamoshida
"I used my crush's death as an excuse to seek some excitement in this shithole of a town" yikes, that's a little messed up dude.
"I'm jealous/resentful of my best friend and use her as an emotional crutch to feel better about myself!" wow what a bitch!
"I'm sick and tired of the obligations/expectations placed upon me and wish someone would help me!" ...Okay. Sure, I get that. Anything else...?
Not complaining, it just feels a little backwards.
Also, I had been wondering why there are so many pacing complaints for P5 comparatively to P4 despite them sharing the same structure so I've been paying extra attention to that... And yeah, P4 is much faster on a day to day basis. Like I imagined, P5's problem isn't story pacing but rather gameplay pacing. Days in P5 can sometimes feel a little bloated between party member dialogue, public reactions to the recent story events, train dialogue, overhearing a conversation on the way to school, class, text messages in classes, text messages at night, stat gains taking a lot more time because of the little animation, repeated dialogue, taking trips to pay for Fortune's perks, etc. All these little things add up and it makes P5 feel slower than its predecessors. In P4 you start and end a day with pretty much no outside interference inbetween and it's great. You also still get to do stuff at night even after story events, and that helps a lot in making the player feel like he still has agency. P5 does this, I imagine, because the palace deadlines are much longer than in P4 so theoretically you're getting a similar amount of free time, but it doesn't feel that way because story and gameplay sections are so segregated from one another. This never particularly bothered me, but I can see where the complaints are coming from much more clearly now. It also reinforces my belief that the calendar structure wasn't the issue in regards to pacing.
Anyway, I'll stop writing these huge posts for a while. lol
Nah don't worry about putting us out, I like your long posts. But yeah it's like you said, P4's gameplay flow is better than P5's. Especially on the Vita, where it's one of the greatest pick up and play games ever made.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I think the length of the palaces were good, but I rather than a tiredness mechanic they couldve utilized the method they already had in place better. Split the dungeon's in half using the "real world altering" mechanic. Force the player out and have them go back to the daily life. Make it enticing to take a few days back out before going back in to finish up the next section. Use a bit of creative writing to set entry times so that people arent accidentally going in too late.
The whole modifying the real work thing was really only used well for palace 2. Palace 4 has you using it right at the end and sending the calling card anyway. Palace 6 has it so late that you only have less than a 3rd of the dungeon left after it.
The other pacing issues could be solved by making the stat screen only pop up when you actually gain a level (like P4G), and removing a lot of extraneous conversations. No need to hear samey shit on the train or those screens where its just showing shinjuku and pop up speech bubbles. There is nothing substantial there.
The amount of time wasted on those random text dumps didnt really bother me, but it also wouldnt be losing anything by dropping those