Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen

I hate when people think fuzzing up the PQ mesns "jaggies are gone", stop that nonsense.

Face it if the game has garbage AA it will be bad no matter if you put sharpness down to zero, leav sharpness in a spot where it still delivers clearness to the PQ without seeing outlines, dont fuzzy up the PQ thats dumb.

If you'll note what I actually wrote, I said during calibration sharpness will be set correctly. I'm not talking at all about "fuzzing up the PQ". There is in fact a proper setting for the sharpness control, that isn't simply turning it to 0, as some also incorrectly assume.

Sharpness controls artificially add a highlighting between light and dark areas, which makes them stand out more, but also hides detail. As a consequence of this highlighting, jaggies may be more noticeable.

Conversely, if sharpness is set properly, you won't have the highlighting which would accentuate the jaggies.

I'm actually agreeing with you here - your tv sharpness shouldn't be used a means of AA to fix bad game design. But if you're going to quote me, don't make blanket assumptions about what I meant about setting sharpness. :p
 
I hate when people think fuzzing up the PQ mesns "jaggies are gone", stop that nonsense.

Face it if the game has garbage AA it will be bad no matter if you put sharpness down to zero, leav sharpness in a spot where it still delivers clearness to the PQ without seeing outlines, dont fuzzy up the PQ thats dumb.

For most tvs that spot happens to be just zero. Anything other than that will add artificial edge enhancement. Since most tvs also ship with Sharpness set quite high, especially in game mode, it's not a bad suggestion to turn it down.
 
So I was going to buy the VT60 but before I do that wanted to ask a question. Is there a Panasonic Plasma with the same video qualities as the VT60 but without the smart features and 3d? I have a HTPC so I don't need the smart features and 3d gives me a headache so wondering if I could save a few bucks getting a tv without those features.
 
So I was going to buy the VT60 but before I do that wanted to ask a question. Is there a Panasonic Plasma with the same video qualities as the VT60 but without the smart features and 3d? I have a HTPC so I don't need the smart features and 3d gives me a headache so wondering if I could save a few bucks getting a tv without those features.

The S60 is cheaper and has less features on it, but I believe it doesn't have the same picture quality. The ST60 has comparable PQ and is a bit cheaper but has higher input lag.
 
So I was going to buy the VT60 but before I do that wanted to ask a question. Is there a Panasonic Plasma with the same video qualities as the VT60 but without the smart features and 3d? I have a HTPC so I don't need the smart features and 3d gives me a headache so wondering if I could save a few bucks getting a tv without those features.

In general, the answer would be no. The S60, doesn't have 3d, but still has the smart features. VT60 would be a better picture though, due to the AR filter and more detailed calibration controls. The ST60, which would be closer to the VT, still has the smart features, but also 3d.

So if you want to save a few bucks, get an ST60 and just don't use the 3d or smart tv stuff. Be aware though that the input lag of the ST60 is much higher than the VT, so depending on your sensitivity to that sort of thing, that may be an issue for you.
 
If I buy a 40 or 42 inch TV, am I better off getting a 1080p LED or a 720p plasma? The set would mostly be used for gaming. Assume the price is the same for both models (around $400).
 
I might be able to get a Pioneer Kuro 151fd Elite for a semi decent price locally. My Pioneer 5020FD broke during a move 2 years ago.

Only thing I'm worried about is 1. Redoing my finances to try and accommodate this purchase. 2. The fact that it won't do 3D. 3. The potential of it breaking on the drive home.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Why n ot just get a ZT60 it is equivalent to a 151FD, larger and 3D. I can see getting a Kuro if it was a 500M or 111FD but a 151 doesn't seem worth it now.
 
So I went ahead and bought the VT60. Was on sale and while I probably wouldn't have noticed input lag on the ST60, since I now know its there I would have been looking for it all the time. Plus the VT60 was on sale.
 
My lag report regarding the ST60:

So my 50ST60 arrived yesterday, I've just got it running slides at the moment, wooo! I was really nervous about input lag so I couldn't help myself and booted up a game before leaving for work. I chucked in BF3 and wow, with game mode on I was really disappointing. It felt borderline unplayable for me. I left for work thinking what the fuck am I going to do, put up with it or return it? Then I thought fuck it, I'll have a play around with some settings and other games when I get home...I remember BF3 being pretty unresponsive anyway, maybe it was just that.

I get home, play around with settings, turn everything off that doesn't need to be on and chuck in some games. I went for 30fps games to see the lag at its worse (60fps games are a non issue). So I played Uncharted 3, TLOU, GoW3, InFamous 2 and Vanquish (I should've popped BF3 back in but forgot). SIGH OF FUCKING RELIEF. There is lag, but it's barely noticeable, most won't even notice any lag at all. Infamous, GoW and Vanquish are really responsive all around, in fact after playing Vanquish it really highlights how 'heavy' U3 and TLOU feel. Response time is fine shooting in U3 and TLOU, but the movement is quite slow in comparison to other games (most likely a design choice?), so maybe put that down to the games and not the TV? I don't know, I might test it a little further later.

Anyway, here are some gifs of my results. I didn't get time to record Vanquish, but it was very responsive. I'll give BF3 another go when I get some time and report back.


God of War:
gowlag4gxcg.gif


InFamous 2:
infmovelag8na05.gif
infshootlag0zbyy.gif


TLOU:
tloulagy7lug.gif


Uncharted 3:
u3lagp2zai.gif



For what it's worth, this is the Australian/New Zealand ST60 with the latest update, manufactured in May. I can't imagine this being different to other regions.
 
well, since i managed to offload my LG with 80ms input lag onto a friend who´s not a gamer, i went out and got me a sony w900. absolutely love it so far! image quality is amazing.
measured lag with the leobodnar device - 19ms in game mode with the device hooked directly to the tv. when i go through my onkyo av receiver (and set that to game mode too) i get 44ms (was 105ms with the LG+av receiver).

only thing is when going through the av receiver, you only use one hdmi port on the tv, and as far as i can tell, picture/scene settings on the tv are stored per input. so whenever i switch between console, htpc or cablebox i have to reselect the appropriate scene/picture settings. at least it seems to remember when you make changes within one scene-mode.
i wonder if there´s a way to get the tv to know which av receiver input is active and change settings accordingly (going all sony and changing the av receiver as well maybe?).
another possibility would be to hook the ps3 to the tv hdmi directly and go with optical to the av receiver for sound. that´d also give me the full input lag benefits, but i´m not sure about sound. Seems that hdmi can do more formats
 
So I'm looking to get a new tv for next gen. Nothing too fancy or expensive. I've been looking at the Samsung UN46F6300 and it pretty much meets what I'm looking for in size and price. Is this a good tv? If I can get better value with a different tv under $1000 then by all mean tell me, I don't know much about tvs.
 
My lag report regarding the ST60:

So my 50ST60 arrived yesterday, I've just got it running slides at the moment, wooo! I was really nervous about input lag so I couldn't help myself and booted up a game before leaving for work. I chucked in BF3 and wow, with game mode on I was really disappointing. It felt borderline unplayable for me. I left for work thinking what the fuck am I going to do, put up with it or return it? Then I thought fuck it, I'll have a play around with some settings and other games when I get home...I remember BF3 being pretty unresponsive anyway, maybe it was just that.

I get home, play around with settings, turn everything off that doesn't need to be on and chuck in some games. I went for 30fps games to see the lag at its worse (60fps games are a non issue). So I played Uncharted 3, TLOU, GoW3, InFamous 2 and Vanquish (I should've popped BF3 back in but forgot). SIGH OF FUCKING RELIEF. There is lag, but it's barely noticeable, most won't even notice any lag at all. Infamous, GoW and Vanquish are really responsive all around, in fact after playing Vanquish it really highlights how 'heavy' U3 and TLOU feel. Response time is fine shooting in U3 and TLOU, but the movement is quite slow in comparison to other games (most likely a design choice?), so maybe put that down to the games and not the TV? I don't know, I might test it a little further later.

Anyway, here are some gifs of my results. I didn't get time to record Vanquish, but it was very responsive. I'll give BF3 another go when I get some time and report back.


God of War:
http://abload.de/img/gowlag4gxcg.gif[img]

InFamous 2:
[img]http://abload.de/img/infmovelag8na05.gif http://abload.de/img/infshootlag0zbyy.gif[img]

TLOU:
[img]http://abload.de/img/tloulagy7lug.gif[img]

Uncharted 3:
[img]http://abload.de/img/u3lagp2zai.gif[img]


For what it's worth, this is the Australian/New Zealand ST60 with the latest update, manufactured in May. I can't imagine this being different to other regions.[/QUOTE]



virtua fighter 5 is a great test for lag since it plays very poorly if theres too much and it becomes very noticeable. theres a demo for it.
 
measured lag with the leobodnar device - 19ms in game mode with the device hooked directly to the tv. when i go through my onkyo av receiver (and set that to game mode too) i get 44ms (was 105ms with the LG+av receiver).

To get the least amount of lag and processing you should set the picture mode to Direct on your Onkyo receiver. The game mode also alters the picture quality and should not be used at all.

Unfortunately this doesn't disable processing completely like it should (this is a known issue with any Onkyo receiver) because the processor is always on on HDMI out main. Only way to get around it using an Onkyo receiver is using the HDMI sub out.
 
To get the least amount of lag and processing you should set the picture mode to Direct on your Onkyo receiver. The game mode also alters the picture quality and should not be used at all.

Unfortunately this doesn't disable processing completely like it should (this is a known issue with any Onkyo receiver) because the processor is always on on HDMI out main. Only way to get around it using an Onkyo receiver is using the HDMI sub out.

Thanks for the suggestion. I tested all the (relevant) modes of the Onkyo, Game mode gave me the least lag (44ms) followed by Direct (~50ms) and Through (~54ms). This didn´t really make much sense to me too, since Direct and Through modes sound like they should just be passing signals along. But i also have to admit that it can be somewhat tricky to get the lag tester to display the testing pattern on the tv when connecting via the Onkyo. So i guess some more testing is in order.
Unfortunately my Onkyo(609) doesn´t have a 2nd hdmi out.
 
Direct is passing through the signal untouched (through is still upscaling it if needed). It is still not entirely untouched however, as I said the processor is still active.


I made some tests myself using my Onkyo 1009 and the Leo Bodnar tester. Since it has two HDMI outs I used the HDMI sub out and direct mode and only got 7ms more lag than going directly to the TV which is nothing to worry about at all and is not worth the hassle to connect the console directly to the TV and then using an optical connection to grab the sound. Especially with next gen when sound is untouched over HDMI.

Using the HDMI main out though I got the same results as you. The processor of the Onkyo adds about 20-25ms of input lag. This is why I only use the main out for my non-gaming stuff.

So yeah maybe you should look into getting an AV-Receiver with two HDMI out, this is also nice because the consoles go from the HDMI sub out to the TV input which is always in game mode so I don't have to switch settings all the time.
 
Even though my new speakers won't get here until next weekish (same with the VT60), I got antsy and bought mine today. Connected to my old 5.0 setup. Can't judge the audio at all but the fit and finish of the physical hardware and software are so nice thus far.
I haven't had a chance to play with it much, but yes the software interface is really nice. Crazy this is in an A/V receiver (my first one in about 13 years). I did a software update that took about 30 minutes I'd say. The manual says 40 minutes to several hours... that's pretty crazy. It definitely has some heft. I've got my DirecTV receiver, Chromecast, and HTPC hooked up to it at the moment.

If you, or anyone, would like me to test anything in particular let me know. I've got to see about Plex bitstreaming DTS-HD/TrueHD content.
 
Anyone got some experience with the Sony 42" W650/655?

The HDMI Input on my XV501p doesn't work anymore, so I'm looking for a good and affordable TV for nextgen.

The Sony is about 580€ here in Germany and got very postive reviews.

I also found a really cheap alternative: The Toshiba 39L4353DB. This one is at 350€-400€ at the moment.

if you are looking for a great gaming tv, then buy it. finding a tv with lower input lag is very rare. it has something around 15ms. which makes it nearly perfect for gaming.
 
I'll probably end up getting a BenQ monitor for next gen gaming. Fairly cheap and I prefer to sit right in front of them while playing. Hoping the graphics won't look too bad on them.. Plus.. I value the actual gaming part more. Lol.
 
A 151FD is just a larger 111FD.

Hmmm no. On the surface yes they are both Elites one 50 the other 60. On the inside...they are different which is why they are usually referred to as 9.5G for 500M and the last gen 111FD

They used a new driving tech and panel. which is why the 500M and 111FD can measure a MLL of 0.0005 the 151FD cannot. It will measure at the lowest 0.001 which is about the same as a ZT60 which is why I made that comment
 
I haven't had a chance to play with it much, but yes the software interface is really nice. Crazy this is in an A/V receiver (my first one in about 13 years). I did a software update that took about 30 minutes I'd say. The manual says 40 minutes to several hours... that's pretty crazy. It definitely has some heft. I've got my DirecTV receiver, Chromecast, and HTPC hooked up to it at the moment.

If you, or anyone, would like me to test anything in particular let me know. I've got to see about Plex bitstreaming DTS-HD/TrueHD content.

Just general impressions and things you pick up. I will say that whatever Sony (iOS) Apps I've tried to use with this thing are pretty awful, but that's not a huge deal. I set mine up so far, got Airplay going which is svelte as hell.

My entire system is ordered at this point, everything should be here by early next week.

STR-DN1040 is right in front of me.
65" VT60 is en route.
My Absolute 5.1T speaker set is on its way.
And my wiring from Monoprice (+some flat cabling from Amazon because for some reason Monoprice doesn't carry anything flat).

Gonna be a fun exciting week. Just need a TV stand and some surround stands. Then set it all up, break it in (which I need to start researching) and in 2 weeks PS4 will be here.

Yay.
 
I'm not sure about current Panny's, but with my GT30, setting it to THX mode, and turning off CATS made a world of difference for both gaming and movie watching.

My 2cents for you dude getting ST's & VT's
 
I'm not sure about current Panny's, but with my GT30, setting it to THX mode, and turning off CATS made a world of difference for both gaming and movie watching.

My 2cents for you dude getting ST's & VT's

Turning everything off is always recommended I believe, but of course it comes down to subjective preference.
 
Guys, i got 22" Samsung 720p TV in my room and i don't want to change it for next gen. Question is,can i play PS4 on 720p TV? Can i set PS4 to output only 720p and not 1080p in settings?
 
well, since i managed to offload my LG with 80ms input lag onto a friend who´s not a gamer, i went out and got me a sony w900. absolutely love it so far! image quality is amazing.
measured lag with the leobodnar device - 19ms in game mode with the device hooked directly to the tv. when i go through my onkyo av receiver (and set that to game mode too) i get 44ms (was 105ms with the LG+av receiver).

only thing is when going through the av receiver, you only use one hdmi port on the tv, and as far as i can tell, picture/scene settings on the tv are stored per input. so whenever i switch between console, htpc or cablebox i have to reselect the appropriate scene/picture settings. at least it seems to remember when you make changes within one scene-mode.
i wonder if there´s a way to get the tv to know which av receiver input is active and change settings accordingly (going all sony and changing the av receiver as well maybe?).
another possibility would be to hook the ps3 to the tv hdmi directly and go with optical to the av receiver for sound. that´d also give me the full input lag benefits, but i´m not sure about sound. Seems that hdmi can do more formats

Why do you need to use different picture mode/settings for each device? Output levels through HDMI are usually pretty uniform. My Cable, HTPC, PS3, and Wii U are all dead on using the same input/settings. Does your AVR overlay the volume or source label on the actual video output? If so, that's where the lag's coming from. If there's an option to turn that off, it may fix it. AVR's without that feature should add no or negligible lag. You could also look into an HDMI splitter with EDID spoofing/override (this is necessary to send surround sound formats) to your TV and AVR simultaneously. Without EDID spoofing, splitters will only send the lowest common denominator format, which to a TV is Stereo and would defeat your purposes.
 
I don't think I can fit really good 60+ inch in my budget so the question is should I go for a cheaper one or get smaller sized one for the bedroom. I don't particularly care if it's the one or the other but for the bedroom I need like 40 inches and they cost a LOT less.
 
Hmmm no. On the surface yes they are both Elites one 50 the other 60. On the inside...they are different which is why they are usually referred to as 9.5G for 500M and the last gen 111FD

They used a new driving tech and panel. which is why the 500M and 111FD can measure a MLL of 0.0005 the 151FD cannot. It will measure at the lowest 0.001 which is about the same as a ZT60 which is why I made that comment

You're confusing the 101 with the 111. The 101 and 500M are identical in regards to picture quality with a black level of ~0.0005. The 111 and 151 are identical with a black level of ~0.001. Some 141 and 600M may be closer to the 101 or 500M, but that is dependent on manufacture date as near the end all panels including a few 60'' ones were produced at the more advanced Pioneer plant.
 
You're confusing the 101 with the 111. The 101 and 500M are identical in regards to picture quality with a black level of ~0.0005. The 111 and 151 are identical with a black level of ~0.001. Some 141 and 600M may be closer to the 101 or 500M, but that is dependent on manufacture date as near the end all panels including a few 60'' ones were produced at the more advanced Pioneer plant.

You are correct it is the 101FD. I forgot they did 101 and 111 the same year with the 500M. Even if they manufactured the some 600M/A at the other pioneer plants they had a different panel then the 101 and 500M. I have never heard of a 600M going as low as 0.0005 or lower if you have the voltage tweak
 
Panasonic TC-P55UT50 is about 300 bucks cheaper than the st60. Any major differences besides the price?

Image quality is supposed to be pretty drastic.

Thinking about this tv http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWKBZ1G/?tag=neogaf0e-20

any different between it and this one other than the extra hrtz? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWKBZ0M/?tag=neogaf0e-20

If you can afford the w900 its the tv to go for. Huge differences in black levels between it and the 802. The W900 is reviewing consistently as the best LCD on the market right now.
 
Why do you need to use different picture mode/settings for each device? Output levels through HDMI are usually pretty uniform.

i´d at least like to separate video from gaming and pc inputs. checking the lag levels of the different modes shows drastically different values.
 
I should be getting my VT60 on Friday and have a couple of questions. First is what is the slides that everyone seems to be talking about, and what is the best way for a AV newbie to calibrate the TV settings?

Secondly I do have an Onkyo 509 receiver, I have 4 devices that are attached to it using HDMI and will have one HDMI going from the receiver to the TV. I haven't really messed with much of the settings, but it seems like setting HDMI output to Direct is the way to go?
 
So I went ahead and bought the VT60. Was on sale and while I probably wouldn't have noticed input lag on the ST60, since I now know its there I would have been looking for it all the time. Plus the VT60 was on sale.

Thing is not many people notice input lag lol,

Some cousin of mine says PQ is more important.
 
If I buy a 40 or 42 inch TV, am I better off getting a 1080p LED or a 720p plasma? The set would mostly be used for gaming. Assume the price is the same for both models (around $400).

Isnt it their a certain size where 1080p would be more evident?, 60" I think???
 
Thing is not many people notice input lag lol,

Some cousin of mine says PQ is more important.

Not many people understand input lag. They expect it to be some seemingly 10 second delay and when they don't see that, they declare it's not a problem. The reality is that it's more of a subtle feeling of sluggishness/unresponsiveness than an outright delay. I personally believe everyone can/does notice it, it just doesn't live up to their expectation, they have no frame of reference of what it's supposed to be like, and they just wind up blaming everything on "this is just how the game is".

If I buy a 40 or 42 inch TV, am I better off getting a 1080p LED or a 720p plasma? The set would mostly be used for gaming. Assume the price is the same for both models (around $400).

Most (if not all) 720p Plasma's are 1024x768 these days. I'd avoid them personally. Sucks you didn't buy earlier in the year, I remember Sears selling the 42" S60 1080p PDP for $399.
 
Thinking about this tv http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWKBZ1G/?tag=neogaf0e-20

any different between it and this one other than the extra hrtz? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AWKBZ0M/?tag=neogaf0e-20

I initially bought the w802a, used it for about a month and wasn't overly impressed for the amount of money it cost. Exchanged it a few weeks back for the w900a and after getting over the initial sticker shock, have had no regrets. It is a beautiful TV and the difference in picture quality vs. the 802 is night and day. I honestly feel that it can hold its own against plasmas. Even the menus, which were a laggy mess on the 802, are snappy and responsive on the 900. I highly recommend it over the w802 if it's within your budget.
 
I hope everyone talking about a new tv is waiting until black friday. They gonna be SUPER discounted.

And does anyone think OLED will be affordable by holiday season 2014? 2015?

And looks like ill be watching the sony w900a this black friday. Fingers crossed for sub 1500? Lower?
 
And does anyone think OLED will be affordable by holiday season 2014? 2015?

Very unlikely. Most importantly manufacturing yields are still super low and there will be less of a rush to get to OLED while they are spending tons of ads/time trying to milk the 4K cow before it dies and they move to OLED. At the same time thing of the wait as ironing out the bugs...
 
If you walk up to buy a TV at a Best Buy or PC Richards store, do they deliver it to you?.

Best Buy will do free delivery if it is over 50" I believe. It has to be over a certain size for the free delivery. My 58" was free and they got it to me in 2 days. Even beat Amazon in that regards.
 
And does anyone think OLED will be affordable by holiday season 2014? 2015?

I wouldn't buy an OLED for a few years now. The technology is very new and expensive. They need to shake out all the quirks before I'd consider it. OLED is today where LCD was about 10 years ago.

At this point plasma has reached the end of its lifecycle, LED is mature and starting to slow down with regards to technological leaps, and OLED is fresh out of the labs.
 
I wouldn't buy an OLED for a few years now. The technology is very new and expensive. They need to shake out all the quirks before I'd consider it. OLED is today where LCD was about 10 years ago.

At this point plasma has reached the end of its lifecycle, LED is mature and starting to slow down with regards to technological leaps, and OLED is fresh out of the labs.

I don't know if I would say "fresh out of the labs". OLED has been shown at CES for a few years now. Hell, Sony's XEL-1 came out 5 years ago!!

Granted, it's not mature technology like plasma or LCD, but it's not like they only introduced it last year. Their biggest issues now are getting the manufacturing costs down for large size panels, and getting the life of the blue pixels up closer to red and green, although for all I know they may have already improved them.

All the OEM's are working on this, so I'd imagine they will accelerate price reductions more than happened with plasma.
 
I hope everyone talking about a new tv is waiting until black friday. They gonna be SUPER discounted.

And does anyone think OLED will be affordable by holiday season 2014? 2015?

And looks like ill be watching the sony w900a this black friday. Fingers crossed for sub 1500? Lower?

I hope you are right. I would love that w900a for 1500. I wish I could see the Black Friday ads now....
What are the chances of really good LED's being cheap on Black Friday? It seems like most of the time they offer really cheaply made models....right?
 
There is no way the W900 will be below 1500. I bet it will be around 16-1700. Sony doesn't offer big discounts on the flagships and the W900 is selling really good.
 
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