So basically... Leo Bodnar method is bunk for plasmas at the moment. Lol the input lag revolution certainly has its bumps in the road.
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
- Start date
So basically... Leo Bodnar method is bunk for plasmas at the moment. Lol the input lag revolution certainly has its bumps in the road.
JaguarCROW
Member
In 2010 I purchased the Samsung PN63C7000 63-Inch 1080p 3D Plasma HDTV and although I liked it at first (this was my first Plasma) I would not recommend a Samsung Plasma to anyone now. The TV has developed horizontal bleeding of colors especially when displaying a light or nearly all light color picture. Whites smear into purple and light blues smear into darker blues. This TV was initially calibrated just after installing but has not been since. I have tried backing off on the brightness and contrast which does decrease the white to purple smearing but it is still present and the picture has lost almost all the color depth now.
I strongly recommend people stay away from Samsung Plasma displays and as soon as I can afford to replace this with a similar size 4k tv I will.
Primary uses are playing my PS3, sports and time-shifted programming from my DirectV satellite receiver, Wii U etc. (in other words a lot of variety).
I strongly recommend people stay away from Samsung Plasma displays and as soon as I can afford to replace this with a similar size 4k tv I will.
Primary uses are playing my PS3, sports and time-shifted programming from my DirectV satellite receiver, Wii U etc. (in other words a lot of variety).
Decided to buy a new flatscreen for my consoles this weekend due to having some issues with my Samsung LED. Went against going for another 3D screen since I won't be using this screen for watching media.
After doing some research I bought a 2013 Sony KDL-42W653A. Despite being a mid-range screen this is perfect for my gaming needs. Picture quality is really good, but the stat which jumped out when checking out reviews is the 15ms input lag rating.
The only downside being there are only two HDMI slots which is pretty poor. But a sacrifice I was willing to make.
A review for anyone interested in the screen.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm
This should be perfect for the PS4 and Xbone. Price wise it is a very reasonable 550 quid.
After doing some research I bought a 2013 Sony KDL-42W653A. Despite being a mid-range screen this is perfect for my gaming needs. Picture quality is really good, but the stat which jumped out when checking out reviews is the 15ms input lag rating.
The only downside being there are only two HDMI slots which is pretty poor. But a sacrifice I was willing to make.
A review for anyone interested in the screen.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm
This should be perfect for the PS4 and Xbone. Price wise it is a very reasonable 550 quid.
Probably pulling the trigger on the Panasonic TC-65PS64 this weekend, provided the local Sam's/Costco have them in stock. I have a few questions about this model:
1) I figure the built-in speakers won't cut it, so I'm also planning on buying a soundbar. However, I'm a bit concerned about using up an HDMI spot for it when the tv only has two. Would it be reasonable to get an HDMI switch and put the cable box, PS4 and Xbox One on it, leaving the other slot for the soundbar? Would an HDMI switch cause noticeable loss in quality?
2) I'm wanting to mount the tv as well. Any recommendations on a mount would be appreciated.
1) I figure the built-in speakers won't cut it, so I'm also planning on buying a soundbar. However, I'm a bit concerned about using up an HDMI spot for it when the tv only has two. Would it be reasonable to get an HDMI switch and put the cable box, PS4 and Xbox One on it, leaving the other slot for the soundbar? Would an HDMI switch cause noticeable loss in quality?
2) I'm wanting to mount the tv as well. Any recommendations on a mount would be appreciated.
The soundbar will use the optical audio out on your TV instead of hdmi. Then I guess you could plug the cable box into the XB1, and then plug both consoles into the 2 hdmi ports. No switch needed that way, although it wouldn't cause any loss in quality if you did.
Dunno about wall mounting though.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
You can't just half lag times. The bodnar test by nature of how it works won't be off by more than 1 frame. Whatever the integration time to get to the brightness threshold of the testing PMT/CCD in the leo bodnar, it can't be more than 1 frame, otherwise either a)the display would never be bright enough to register as a frame change, or b) the integration time on the bodnar lag tester is more than one frame.
We know it's not b, since if that were the case the device would be entirely worthless.
It's probably worth mentioning I'm an electro optic sensor engineer, so I'm not entirely full of crap about this sort of stuff.
TL/DNR: The leo bodnar test should not differ by more than about 16.6ms between displays. The difference can probably be reasonably assumed to be about half that much in most cases. Probably more than half near the top of the display. Near the bottom of the display the plasma will likely come out ahead of the LCD due to the way LCDs print out scan lines.
You're comparing the camera method (VT60) with the leo bodnar method (W900). You should compare like for like, in this case it's 23ms vs 8ms, which is roughly 1 frame. I completely agree that it's not a big difference, and truth be told, if I didn't have room mates that use the tv more than I do, I would've gone with the VT60 most likely. However I have to admit the W900 has been quite a bit better than I expected it to be having been exclusively a plasma user for the past 5 years or so.
Toothless Spoon
Member
I was the same, and fiddled around with them in store. Got it down to Sony and samsung, don't know the input lag of samsung, and the dude couldn't tell me. I was watching the samsung for quite a bit, playing with the settings, couldn't get the 'motionflow' (whatever samsung calls it) to a good setting - still a lot of pixelation. Don't get me wrong it's a beautiful panel with a clear front, loads of features, slick design - but I'm had a few dramas with samsung lcd tv's and monitors, and the features are something that I don't care all that much about, because the xbox one will come with voice and swipe controls etc.
I've still got my 52" LCD Sony and it's never done me wrong, so thats what I went with - and I'm super happy with it. At the end of the day, I think most people are going to be happy with any TV they buy.
I was playing around with it last night with movies and PS3 - its a beautiful panel and games look fantastic on them. Played Need for Seed Most wanted and Mafia II and it all looked good to me.
If you're an optics sensor engineer, you better make us a new input lag tester ASAP. Call it the GAFnar input lag test.
Looking for a new TV! Want to get something nice before Xbox One arrives. The only real requirements that I have are:
Budget of sub-£1000
Looking for 47"+
Minimum input lag, will be used mostly for gaming
The LG LA660V seems nice for the price, but I'm very welcome to other suggestions.
Budget of sub-£1000
Looking for 47"+
Minimum input lag, will be used mostly for gaming
The LG LA660V seems nice for the price, but I'm very welcome to other suggestions.
Yeah but when I forgot how shitty PS3 scaling was after buying my new 1080p LED w/HDMI, when connecting my PS3 to it -- I was pissed.
thebigkahuna
Member
I don't know if you should take my advice or not. I bought a UN65F7100 last Friday and I am not impressed. It has bad vertical banding which makes sports like golf and hockey almost unwatchable, however, vertical banding can be found on almost any LCD. There is also considerable ghosting, the colors aren't deep and the picture seems soft. Others in the AVS forum 7100 thread have different opinions than mine and say the sets "blows them away" but this set isn't anywhere near as good as my 6 year old LCD. Maybe I just got a bad panel but it's going back this week. For what I don't know. I'd get the F8500 plasma if it weren't for the bad input lag. I'm also contemplating stepping up to the F8000, which seems to handle motion, blacks, and color better than the 7100. Good luck, buying a TV these days is very frustrating.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
I suspect they could actually get a result that favors plasma to LCD by simply inverting the way it works. IE: Start with a white screen, and when you push 'go' darken the screen for 1 frame and count the time until your sensor stops detecting that its being illuminated. Plasma should be able to go from light to dark faster than LCD as Phosphor trailing is usually temporally shorter than LCD ghosting I believe (i'm actually not sure about this, but I really do suspect I'm right about it).
You're not going to get a device that is perfect for both since there is too much going on between frames to really precisely define where a frame starts and stops in terms of human perception. At that point you're looking at sub frames and it probably doesn't really matter. More to the point, the bodnar tester won't be off by more than 1 frame for either technology, which I think makes it good enough to be perfectly suitable as a standard.
SolidSnake3035
Neo Member
When you guys mention them using a "camera" for these latency tests are you talking about still photos or video? Because I would think using a super high speed camera like the Phantom would actually be able to show a pretty definitive example of each display's performance.
Always-honest
Banned
It's time for laser tv.
still photos on a camera (with high shutter speed).
That time is already over lol.
Yes. I game on a projector from time to time. Really the only problem is the setup of your room. You need to put in a lot of work to make it look the best it can.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
Still photos. It works very well, but its a time consuming test to perform, and you need to do it lots of times to get a good average result.
Yes, if you don't need (or want) 3D then it seems the S60 is tough to beat... assuming you are fine with some of the cons that come with plasma (I certainly am).
Bananajama
Banned
After reading some things on the ST60 & Input lag I opted for the Panasonic GT60 instead. Order arriving on Friday
Tried to source last years ST50 but company never phoned me back
Tried to source last years ST50 but company never phoned me back
As someone who works with TV's every day, and just bought a 2013 f8500 plasma, you have to understand that sometimes televisions will break. Could happen to any brand, not just samsung.
4K Is extremely unnecessary also, unless you play on getting a 50" for <5 feet away or a 80+ for <10 feet away.
SolidSnake3035
Neo Member
Wouldn't work nearly as well as super high speed video.
Seriously does no one do this? It seems obvious, other than the fact that cameras like the Phantom can cost well over $100k.
Having had my two sets for sometime now 55vt65 and a 40w905 i simply couldnt recommend the vt65 for gaming, the image retension is insane it really is i had a unit replaced due to a sports logo being stuck on it even after weeks of running slides scrolling bar etc etc. I just dont wanna think what it would be like if you gamed on that set for a period of time the ir build up would lead to burn in imho. The w905 while not quite offer the blacks although they are pretty damn close, its amazing for gaming with one of the lowest out there matched with some of the best blacks found on an lcd. If i had to pick one id go movies and tv vt65 and gaming w905.
Anyone care to share some thoughts on the following set?
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN40FH6030-40-Inch-1080p-120Hz/dp/B00BD8SZLE/ref=sr_1_4?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1377647098&sr=1-4
I had my heart set on a similar Sony model from last year that has since been discontinued, due partially to low input lag. This set seems virtually identical, though I don't know what the input lag numbers are.
Anyone care to comment? Any advice would be appreciated, be it regarding input lag or no.
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN40FH6030-40-Inch-1080p-120Hz/dp/B00BD8SZLE/ref=sr_1_4?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1377647098&sr=1-4
I had my heart set on a similar Sony model from last year that has since been discontinued, due partially to low input lag. This set seems virtually identical, though I don't know what the input lag numbers are.
Anyone care to comment? Any advice would be appreciated, be it regarding input lag or no.
Buckethead
Banned
Depends on what you're looking for in a TV.
There's no 3D, no local dimming, Wi-Fi or Ethernet, and no smart apps.
I personally think the first two items are sorta bullshit but its a difference.
The input lag is 59ms which is about a frame difference between Samsung's best LED the 7100 which is like 42ms.
Might want to look into this Samsung 5000 or this Samsung 5300. Input lags are 24ms and 26ms respectively.
Part of the reason I'm looking at the F7100 is because the picture quality was supposedly better. That and the sexy thin bezel.
But I don't give a fuck about 3D or half of the things that push up the price. Is my ignorance showing is is auto motion just terrible in every instance.
I know I hate it for movies and TV shows.
Hmmmmm.
Why would local dimming be bullshit or am I reading your post wrong?
Should the lower refresh rate in the 5000 be a cause for concern?
Also, where did you get the input lag for the set I posted?
Buckethead
Banned
Real local dimming isn't but its become a convoluted marketing term and most TVs don't have it.
Buckethead
Banned
DisplayLag.com, cross check with AVS.
No, not for gaming but its opportunity cost with all sets/what you're doing with them.
I'm looking to replace my 50' 720p set with one of Samsung's F7100 models. The problem is that Samung offers a 46 and 55 inch version, while I sit 6.5-7 feet from the television.
I've looked on a ton of websites and I get three tips:
1. The 46" is better for my viewing distance.
2. You only start perceiving the benefit of 1080p on sets 50" or larger
3. People always want a set larger than what they got.
Is the 55 inch too large for my space? Will sub 1080p content look especially bad (re: extremely obvious artifacts, SDE, etc...)?
I've looked on a ton of websites and I get three tips:
1. The 46" is better for my viewing distance.
2. You only start perceiving the benefit of 1080p on sets 50" or larger
3. People always want a set larger than what they got.
Is the 55 inch too large for my space? Will sub 1080p content look especially bad (re: extremely obvious artifacts, SDE, etc...)?
vpance
Member
55 is nearly perfect for that distance. I'm about 7 feet away and sort of wish I went for 60". But as far as sub 1080p content goes it would undoubtedly look better on a 46", that is if you can't move further than 7 feet away.
Not sure if this has been posted but I found it informative. Top 5 best TVs for gamers.
http://youtu.be/1Rp2ocCFlIw
http://youtu.be/1Rp2ocCFlIw
Gah, there's the rub. I'll be watching all sorts of content on this television, so it won't always be native res 1080p source material. I can't move back any further either, so I'm in a hard place.
55 is the way to go?
I have a monoprice 4x4 HDMI matrix and don't have any problems with lag or quality issues.
looks like the missed the best one -
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm
with arround 600 USD and 8 (!!!) MS of input lag thats the best TV for gaming right here
Buckethead
Banned
The W802A is definitely a good TV. I took a long look at it.
If you place a premium on the input lag go for it but its a little pricey for the image quality and panel.
It's matter of what you value and is still nice looking.
If you place a premium on the input lag go for it but its a little pricey for the image quality and panel.
It's matter of what you value and is still nice looking.
Does anyone know how this one stacks up?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0076LY7NM/?tag=neogaf0e-20
According to this website, it has 62 ms input lag. Is that simply too much?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0076LY7NM/?tag=neogaf0e-20
According to this website, it has 62 ms input lag. Is that simply too much?
Buying too small a tv is the #1 source of buyer's remorse. And for that viewing distance, a 55" would actually be better. So if you have the budget, go for the 55.
So I'm about to bite the bullet on a TV for next gen. My searching has led me to the Samsung UE42F5000. It seems to tick all the boxes and seems to have good reviews as a gaming TV but I have one question.
I'm wondering if the 60hz refresh rate is good enough for next-gen? Will I kicking myself in a few years when devs start pushing the PS4 that I didn't go for higher hz? Do I even need higher hz? I'm not bothered by picture quality for TV/Movies, but I am for gaming.
Apologies if this is an obvious question, my technical knowledge is somewhat lacking.
I'm wondering if the 60hz refresh rate is good enough for next-gen? Will I kicking myself in a few years when devs start pushing the PS4 that I didn't go for higher hz? Do I even need higher hz? I'm not bothered by picture quality for TV/Movies, but I am for gaming.
Apologies if this is an obvious question, my technical knowledge is somewhat lacking.
the next gen consoles are using hdmi, which maxes out at 60hz. the only benefit from using those 120-240hz tvs are for judder, and motion interpolation sucks for all contents.
ACH1LL3US
Member
What size tv were you looking at? Even a 23 inch 1080p will look better (depending on veiwing distance), that is with true 1080p content. If your planning to get a next gen console I would recommend a 1080p monitor/tv. If you don't have alot of cash, I would grab a used one on ebay.
I personally can tell a huge difference between a 768p lcd,led,plasma and a 1080p panel with native 1080p content.
So I owned a Panasonic ZT plasma for a bit. Things looked just awesome. But then there was IR. It scared the shit out of me, and I became afraid of actually using the device for pretty much anything. Perhaps my fear was, and is irrational - but I had some chat with the dealer and I'm in the progress of returning it and getting a refund. So that's my first experience with plasma, and probably the last for a bit.
Now I'm thinking of something else. Or rather, something familiar - the return to LCD. It comes with obvious drawbacks. For the time being, I'm using a sibling's 'left-over' 32'' bedroom telly, which plainly shows all the cons of aforementioned display technology: Shallow blacks, terrible viewing angles, awful screen uniformity, clouding and a bit of blooming - the kind of things that can kill the experience of watching a movie in the dark.
Granted, this is an old TV - a fresh Samsung from 2009 and even then it wasn't exactly top of the line. And to be honest, I don't recall these issues being as prevalent with my last 'big' TV that was a 46'' Samsung D8000. But enough about my old displays. I'm looking for a new one. With plasma being off the table for the time being, despite it's superior general IQ, all roads seem to lead to Sony's W905. I wish I could see the TV live for myself before dishing money out for one, but reviews seem positive, especially with the heavy gaming use.
Besides that, I was also looking at some projectors. However, given the space I have to work with (which is plentiful, but very open) the Sony HW50ES I was looking at doesn't seem like a viable option for my living room.
So I'm leaning towards the W905 in 55''. I already read about the viewing angles being shite to say to least, so I'm more curious about the screen uniformity. When I had that 46'' Samsung, I read that panels were hit and miss. Mine wasn't perfect, but from what I understand, it wasn't exactly borderline worst. So if anyone's got one of those Sony's, I'd like a few words. Or a picture - although those rarely show issues like clouding as they actually appear.
On the other hand, I'm looking at a big pile in refund. I could blow that same amount I spent on ZT without any initial regrets on any other high-end display in the price range, or just push the button on the Sony (which actually comes with a 500GB PS3, which I guess is kind of neat. Better for all those PS+ games I have to constantly make room for) and save a few. Towards a new PC next year, or something. It's a shame the W905 goes only as high as 55''. I'd really like something 60'' (because I'd hate to move backwards) or slightly above the mark.
This was a long one. /rant
Now I'm thinking of something else. Or rather, something familiar - the return to LCD. It comes with obvious drawbacks. For the time being, I'm using a sibling's 'left-over' 32'' bedroom telly, which plainly shows all the cons of aforementioned display technology: Shallow blacks, terrible viewing angles, awful screen uniformity, clouding and a bit of blooming - the kind of things that can kill the experience of watching a movie in the dark.
Granted, this is an old TV - a fresh Samsung from 2009 and even then it wasn't exactly top of the line. And to be honest, I don't recall these issues being as prevalent with my last 'big' TV that was a 46'' Samsung D8000. But enough about my old displays. I'm looking for a new one. With plasma being off the table for the time being, despite it's superior general IQ, all roads seem to lead to Sony's W905. I wish I could see the TV live for myself before dishing money out for one, but reviews seem positive, especially with the heavy gaming use.
Besides that, I was also looking at some projectors. However, given the space I have to work with (which is plentiful, but very open) the Sony HW50ES I was looking at doesn't seem like a viable option for my living room.
So I'm leaning towards the W905 in 55''. I already read about the viewing angles being shite to say to least, so I'm more curious about the screen uniformity. When I had that 46'' Samsung, I read that panels were hit and miss. Mine wasn't perfect, but from what I understand, it wasn't exactly borderline worst. So if anyone's got one of those Sony's, I'd like a few words. Or a picture - although those rarely show issues like clouding as they actually appear.
On the other hand, I'm looking at a big pile in refund. I could blow that same amount I spent on ZT without any initial regrets on any other high-end display in the price range, or just push the button on the Sony (which actually comes with a 500GB PS3, which I guess is kind of neat. Better for all those PS+ games I have to constantly make room for) and save a few. Towards a new PC next year, or something. It's a shame the W905 goes only as high as 55''. I'd really like something 60'' (because I'd hate to move backwards) or slightly above the mark.
This was a long one. /rant
vpance
Member
Agreed with Omlagus, go for the 55, you won't regret it. Sure a lot of content out there is still sub 1080p but you'll learn to adapt to the quality difference. The pluses outweigh the negatives.