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[Zathalus]

Come on… the dev docs leaked, it is not speculation. If you want to talk precedent look at PS4 Pro. It was a generation and something beyond PS4's GCN family.

The dual issue compute is now muddled as the DF article is claiming that this is the first official number from Sony and that the developer doc leaks were based on the assumption of VOPD capabilities of RDNA3 being present. But it being there or not being there is quite irrelevant. Extracting a meaningful performance increase from VOPD is nigh impossible (even for AMD themselves) and Sony has given numbers for the expected performance bump and testing has backed that up so far.

As for precedent, I already mentioned that the Pro GPU had features from Vega, but it was mostly just the same GCN architecture of the base PS4 with the aforementioned FP16 capabilities of Vega being added.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

As far as I remember He worked for some Sega magazine which probably got shut down when dreamcast died.

Sega Saturn Magazine and, yeah, I think he never quite got over SEGA leaving as a platform holder. Probably holds it against Sony to this day.

Meanwhile Alex is like the mischievous bastard hellspawn from a one night stand between Richard & Sonic while they used Phil as their gimp at a Windows office.

 

[miklonus]

Ugh…. that teraflop word being tossed around like a willing hooker again!

 

[Kvally]

I find it kinda strange they claim that dual issue stuff doesn't really apply to games, because I saw some Bend Studio dev tweet the other day more or less saying it's integral to how PSSR works.

Gonna try to find the tweet in question

Edit: Ex dev, it seems. Don't know how credible he is.

Never EVER listen to "Alex", lol. That isn't even his real name or picture. He has been caught numerous times lying about his tweets and who he is.

That gif never gets old

 

[Loxus]

RT and ML performance is still measured in TFlops/TOPs.

Not to mention AMD, Nvidia and Sony (even Mark Cerny to some extent) with the PS5/PS5 Pro is still advertising the the TFlop number.

Clearly it's still the number one way to gauge a GPU's performance.

 

[ChiefDada]

Not to mention AMD, Nvidia and Sony (even Mark Cerny to some extent) with the PS5/PS5 Pro is still advertising the the TFlop number.

Clearly it's still the number one way to gauge a GPU's performance.

Neither Sony nor Cerny advertised the PS5 Pro TFLOPS number within a marketing context. We've only seen it in developer leaks and now with the manual. In fact, reality is more in line with my premise as Sony, AMD, and Nvidia are promoting ML and RT tech orders of magnitude greater than any tflop talks. Why do you think that js?

 

[PaintTinJr]

The dual issue compute is now muddled as the DF article is claiming that this is the first official number from Sony and that the developer doc leaks were based on the assumption of VOPD capabilities of RDNA3 being present. But it being there or not being there is quite irrelevant. Extracting a meaningful performance increase from VOPD is nigh impossible (even for AMD themselves) and Sony has given numbers for the expected performance bump and testing has backed that up so far.

As for precedent, I already mentioned that the Pro GPU had features from Vega, but it was mostly just the same GCN architecture of the base PS4 with the aforementioned FP16 capabilities of Vega being added.

It isn't nigh impossible, but as shown in the Ragnarok ML AI technical paper's finishing comments, code using the AMD ISA at that optimisation level isn't generic code that can be used across all devices, so is pretty much only useful on fixed hardware, as is the case with the PS5 and Pro.

 

[Loxus]

Neither Sony nor Cerny advertised the PS5 Pro TFLOPS number within a marketing context. We've only seen it in developer leaks and now with the manual. In fact, reality is more in line with my premise as Sony, AMD, and Nvidia are promoting ML and RT tech orders of magnitude greater than any tflop talks. Why do you think that js?

But still they always mention the TFlop number no matter what they're talking about whenever it comes to the GPU.

Clearly it still has an importance to them.

Edit:
Nvidia for example.

 

[Physiognomonics]

At this point Some would hope it's pointless to judge a console on specs alone.

After years of arguments about PS5 vs XSX, the latest "impressive" non-binary game runs a bit better on PS5, and nobody finds it even odd when the supposedly much weaker console is the one performing a bit better.

It isn't nigh impossible, but as show in the Ragnarok ML AI technical paper's finishing comments, code using the AMD ISA at that optimisation level isn't generic code that can be used across all devices, so is pretty much only useful on fixed hardware, as is the case with the PS5 and Pro.

Exactly. Dual issue will somehow be used on PS5 Pro at some point because it's a closed console (with close to the metal APIs) and is the best use case for this. the only question is how much it will actually help.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The dual issue compute is now muddled as the DF article is claiming that this is the first official number from Sony and that the developer doc leaks were based on the assumption of VOPD capabilities of RDNA3 being present.

What are you talking about? The user manual now overrides the dev documentation that leaked? . If it were about dual rate FP16 (RPM is PS4 Pro old and then some) they would have indicated it.

But it being there or not being there is quite irrelevant. Extracting a meaningful performance increase from VOPD is nigh impossible (even for AMD themselves) and Sony has given numbers for the expected performance bump and testing has backed that up so far.

It is irrelevant, but you are adamant it is not there… is this like SW RT in PS5 vs HW ray tracing in XSX when they both launched? DF's Battaglia muddied the waters there too …

As for precedent, I already mentioned that the Pro GPU had features from Vega, but it was mostly just the same GCN architecture of the base PS4 with the aforementioned FP16 capabilities of Vega being added.

Again, no. It was actually more like Polaris based with Vega features being added.

 

[Kerotan]

Have they uncovered what the capacity of the HDMI port is. Same as regular ps5?

 

[Fafalada]

and that the developer doc leaks were based on the assumption of VOPD capabilities of RDNA3 being present.

Having seen the source - we're not talking about a 'leak based on docs' - but actual docs.
So your statement would become 'Sony made the assumption of RDNA3 being present in dev docs'.

As for precedent, I already mentioned that the Pro GPU had features from Vega, but it was mostly just the same GCN architecture of the base PS4 with the aforementioned FP16 capabilities of Vega being added.

But it wasn't.
You'd have to bend yourself to say it was 'mostly just GCN with all the features of Polaris' (and some Vega / custom additions) ... which is like...

 

[onQ123]

Neither Sony nor Cerny advertised the PS5 Pro TFLOPS number within a marketing context. We've only seen it in developer leaks and now with the manual. In fact, reality is more in line with my premise as Sony, AMD, and Nvidia are promoting ML and RT tech orders of magnitude greater than any tflop talks. Why do you think that js?

As Promised by the great onQ123

Is the Console GPU FLOPs era going the way of the Bit era? I for one welcome our new GB/s marketing overlord

Bits was so important in marketing until we reached 32-bits , for example Sony didn't make a big deal about PS1 being 32-bit even though that was the marking thing that was big in the 80's & 90's but it was probably the CDs that gave PS1 the marketing edge. Atari & Nintendo used 64 in their...

www.neogaf.com

 

[DavidGzz]

A couple of days and it is mine. I like the look a lot more than the regular with disk drive.

 

[Desprado123]

According to DF PS5 Pro will give same performance as RTX 4070 ,however, a video sometimes back he briefly compared RTX 4080, 4070, 4070 super etc with PS5 and RTX 4070 was almost 80% to 90% faster than Pro in rasterization
even Sony is saying that expectation should be up to 45% it means it is a best case possible than why people are comparing it with RTX 4070 rather than it should compare it with RTX 3070/Ti (But cannot be due to Vram limitation).

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

According to DF PS5 Pro will give same performance as RTX 4070 ,however, a video sometimes back he briefly compared RTX 4080, 4070, 4070 super etc with PS5 and RTX 4070 was almost 80% to 90% faster than Pro in rasterization
even Sony is saying that expectation should be up to 45% it means it is a best case possible than why people are comparing it with RTX 4070 rather than it should compare it with RTX 3070/Ti (But cannot be due to Vram limitation).

A console with fixed hardware and less overall overhead designed specifically for gaming will punch above its weight, if developed properly. We see this all the time with Sony first party games.

 

[FStubbs]

So is this the most powerful GPU AMD has created?

 

[Desprado123]

A console with fixed hardware and less overall overhead designed specifically for gaming will punch above its weight, if developed properly. We see this all the time with Sony first party games.

Lol i know but PS5 from launch is being compared with RTX 3060/4060 and still it deliver same performance and range bound. Nothing changed in 4 year.

and metal to core optimization is gone since ps4 era due to now engines are more towards PC and flexibility.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Lol i know but PS5 from launch is being compared with RTX 3060/4060 and still it deliver same performance and range bound. Nothing changed in 4 year.

and metal to core optimization is gone since ps4 era due to now engines are more towards PC and flexibility.

We hear people repeatedly cry about how many PC ports of Sony FP games do not compare well compared to the hardware specs, and that's because Sony games actually are developed first with PS5 hardware in mind.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

But still they always mention the TFlop number no matter what they're talking about whenever it comes to the GPU.

Clearly it still has an importance to them.

Edit:
Nvidia for example.

It's as important as everything on that list. If you refer back to the Pro reveal, at no point was the word teraflop mentioned. It was not even put up in text. Instead, they said 60% larger GPU and xx% faster rendering. They talked about PSSR and RT. If that doesn't tell you that they are shifting away from TF as some sort of stake in the sand, then nothing will.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It's as important as everything on that list. If you refer back to the Pro reveal, at no point was the word teraflop mentioned. It was not even put up in text. Instead, they said 60% larger GPU and xx% faster rendering. They talked about PSSR and RT. If that doesn't tell you that they are shifting away from TF as some sort of stake in the sand, then nothing will.

I do wonder about PS6....

If it's really going to be on 2nm.....and PS5 Pro is already 4nm.....how much of an improvement can we honestly expect especially since PS5 Pro is already getting good architecture improvements with RT and PSSR? I feel like it won't really be a worthy console upgrade, or Sony will have to do something extremely unique by pushing price/power boundaries on the high end while simultaneously launching a lower end model (potentially as a dock and or handheld).

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Have they uncovered what the capacity of the HDMI port is. Same as regular ps5?

2.1

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Lol i know but PS5 from launch is being compared with RTX 3060/4060 and still it deliver same performance and range bound. Nothing changed in 4 year.

and metal to core optimization is gone since ps4 era due to now engines are more towards PC and flexibility.

this is complete nonsense and untrue.

Its also factually incorrect.

If what you are saying is that PC-centric engines are what are being used to develop games and as such "coding to the metal" benefits are gone, that's a different argument from saying coding to the metal benefits do not exist.

There is a reason PS exclusives perform as they do on the PC.

Common sense, if any developer, builds specifically for ONE platform, what that specific code in that particular platform will accomplish would exceed what equivalent hardware on the PC can accomplish with general purpose code.

That will NEVER change.

And brutal evidence of this? Look at Ratchet, Spiderman and Horizon running on the PS5. Then look at say something like Alan wake 2/Star Wars... if looked at in a control vacum, some would even say both pairs of games arent running on the same hardware.

That is the difference of running specialized code for specific hardware vs porting over general purpose code to a given hardware.

 

[FrankWza]

.

2.1

That's the specification. He means the bandwidth. 2.1 has a range up to 48gbps but it was capped on Launch and Slim

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I faintly remember the old PS5 pro rumour thread and people were saying 17TF there so that was spot on. That thread must had been a year old.

Was all the other stuff like ram, cpu speed, PSSR and such in that thread predicted too and correct?

If so, was it logical guesswork? Or there were real leaks?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I do wonder about PS6....

If it's really going to be on 2nm.....and PS5 Pro is already 4nm.....how much of an improvement can we honestly expect especially since PS5 Pro is already getting good architecture improvements with RT and PSSR? I feel like it won't really be a worthy console upgrade, or Sony will have to do something extremely unique by pushing price/power boundaries on the high end while simultaneously launching a lower end model (potentially as a dock and or handheld).

To the contrary, I believe the PS6 will mark the single biggest and most complete jump in console generations since going from the PS2 to the PS3.

And its really simple when you think of it.

So yes, 2nm... that could very well mean we get the same 60CU but at 3Ghz or some shit like that (23TF). And that may seem like a joke of a jump... however, I do really believe that raster performance is not what is holding any of the hardware on the market back. Especially when you are looking at a 60-120fps box.

So in addition to that "meager" 60CU, we should expect to see more developed specialized hardware, like imagine RT that is 4-6x better than whats in the Pro. Even more AI units for faster ML operations, and a broader AI PSSR feature set which includes reconstruction, frame gen, AI reshade...etc. And then we could finally see consoles pushing more than 1TB/s of bandwidth and shipping with around 24GB of RAM.Things like VOPD being thoroughly fleshed out and maybe even capable of proper FP32 operations, which would make that 23TF really be 46TF... with no weird caveats.

Point is, there is sooooo much more they can (and will likely focus on) do than just up that TF number by throwing more CUs at the problem.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Please don't do this at home.

Why is he taking out his hatred for PlayStation on that poor box?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

To the contrary, I believe the PS6 will mark the single biggest and most complete jump in console generations since going from the PS2 to the PS3.

And its really simple when you think of it.

So yes, 2nm... that could very well mean we get the same 60CU but at 3Ghz or some shit like that (23TF). And that may seem like a joke of a jump... however, I do really believe that raster performance is not what is holding any of the hardware on the market back. Especially when you are looking at a 60-120fps box.

So in addition to that "meager" 60CU, we should expect to see more developed specialized hardware, like imagine RT that is 4-6x better than whats in the Pro. Even more AI units for faster ML operations, and a broader AI PSSR feature set which includes reconstruction, frame gen, AI reshade...etc. And then we could finally see consoles pushing more than 1TB/s of bandwidth and shipping with around 24GB of RAM.Things like VOPD being thoroughly fleshed out and maybe even capable of proper FP32 operations, which would make that 23TF really be 46TF... with no weird caveats.

Point is, there is sooooo much more they can (and will likely focus on) do than just up that TF number by throwing more CUs at the problem.

Are meaningful AI improvements and RT really that realistic?

I'm doubtful.

diminishing returns seems like a real thing for next gen more than ever

 

[onQ123]

So is this the most powerful GPU AMD has created?

Lol what?

 

[Gamerguy84]

Just dawned on me that I own one. It's sitting in a warehouse or logistics somewhere ready for my shipping label. My exact one.

Can't wait to play FF7R and Horizon.

I've been pretty good but the excitement is starting to hit just a bit.

 

[MetalRain]

I do wonder about PS6....

If it's really going to be on 2nm.....and PS5 Pro is already 4nm.....how much of an improvement can we honestly expect especially since PS5 Pro is already getting good architecture improvements with RT and PSSR?

I think there is still big potential by increasing amount of memory and bandwidth. Like 32GB of GDDR7. You could use larger textures and models, now that more people are actually playing in 4K resolution.

I'm not sure where is the bottleneck with UE5 tech (nanite, lumen, etc.), but it still runs like ass on current hardware.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sega Saturn Magazine and, yeah, I think he never quite got over SEGA leaving as a platform holder. Probably holds it against Sony to this day.

Yeah, that's why he worked on PlayStation World mag *rollseyes*

 

[Loxus]

It's as important as everything on that list. If you refer back to the Pro reveal, at no point was the word teraflop mentioned. It was not even put up in text. Instead, they said 60% larger GPU and xx% faster rendering. They talked about PSSR and RT. If that doesn't tell you that they are shifting away from TF as some sort of stake in the sand, then nothing will.

If they were shifting away from the TFlop number, we should never know the PS5 Pro has 16.7 TFlop.

It's the best way to gauge a GPU's performance. I don't even know what the problem is with you guys and hating TFlop.

 

[Zathalus]

What are you talking about? The user manual now overrides the dev documentation that leaked? . If it were about dual rate FP16 (RPM is PS4 Pro old and then some) they would have indicated it.


It is irrelevant, but you are adamant it is not there… is this like SW RT in PS5 vs HW ray tracing in XSX when they both launched? DF's Battaglia muddied the waters there too …


Again, no. It was actually more like Polaris based with Vega features being added.

Adamant it is not there? Do you want to go back and read my posts again? I said I have no idea and that it was mere speculation, and that the inclusion or not of the feature doesn't matter as we already know the end result of the performance. If it's there great, that doesn't really change anything does it?

As for the PS4 Pro, I was going off speculation about the GPU in the past such as if it was still a GCN 1.1 shader core or GCN 4. But both it and the PS5 itself are proof that Sony used the GPU features from AMD that suit them.

 

[Panajev2001a]

it was mere speculation

Aka dev docs leak == mere speculation …

 

[Zathalus]

Aka dev docs leak == mere speculation …

Mere speculation on my part, learn to read.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Lol i know but PS5 from launch is being compared with RTX 3060/4060 and still it deliver same performance and range bound. Nothing changed in 4 year.

and metal to core optimization is gone since ps4 era due to now engines are more towards PC and flexibility.

That's history revisionnism. At launch and for some time some where comparing PS5 with 1060 or 2070 until we saw some 1st parties running like a 3060 or even 3070.

EDIT: yes I did remember it right. PS5 was similar to a 1060 according to that guy in DMC5 using the highly CPU bottlenecked 120hz mode. Such a clown.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Mere speculation on my part, learn to read.

Fair enough buddy, keep the aggressive path. Let alone the fact you kept harping about the user manual and the recent DF video… keep speculating against leaked dev docs …

 

[Zathalus]

Fair enough buddy, keep the aggressive path. Let alone the fact you kept harping about the user manual and the recent DF video… keep speculating against leaked dev docs …

Some of you guys get way too worked up about this. Being curious about the discrepancy isn't some crusade against Sony. If the Pro does include VOPD is it the instruction set from RDNA 3 or RDNA 4? If it's either what's the performance differences between the two?
Or are these questions also not allowed to be asked?

 

[Gaiff]

That's history revisionnism. At launch and for some time some where comparing PS5 with 1060 or 2070 until we saw some 1st parties running like a 3060 or even 3070.

I guess you meant 2060 and not 1060? But not really. There was like one game, Watch_Dogs Legion, where the PS5 performed like a 2060S with ray tracing enabled.

Otherwise, the specs put it at least on par with a 5700 XT which was just an older model with similar clocks and core counts. It was established quite early on that it was in the ballpark of a 2070S. Two of the first games analyzed were Valhalla and Death Stranding and it performed like a 2080 in both.

The PS5 also beats the 3060 90% of the time in third-party titles. It annihilates it in first-party games.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Some of you guys get way too worked up about this. Being curious about the discrepancy isn't some crusade against Sony. If the Pro does include VOPD is it the instruction set from RDNA 3 or RDNA 4? If it's either what's the performance differences between the two?
Or are these questions also not allowed to be asked?

They are allowed, who am I the forum police now anyways ? Nope… They just sound like Battaglia "is Sony RT true HW RT? Are we sure? Because I could interpret HW accelerated in different ways… doubt doubt, fear, uncertainty, uncertainty" and in some cases they just may feel disingenuous.

 

[twilo99]

Did they really think it was 30 flops or just trying to be dramatic for clicks?

What matters is the PSSR ML, not the Tflop.

They do say software is more important than hardware but I dunno…

 

[Mr Moose]

Yeah, that's why he worked on PlayStation World mag *rollseyes*

I guess you meant 2060 and not 1060? But not really. There was like one game, Watch_Dogs Legion, where the PS5 performed like a 2060S with ray tracing enabled.

Otherwise, the specs put it at least on par with a 5700 XT which was just an older model with similar clocks and core counts. It was established quite early on that it was in the ballpark of a 2070S. Two of the first games analyzed were Valhalla and Death Stranding and it performed like a 2080 in both.

The PS5 also beats the 3060 90% of the time in third-party titles. It annihilates it in first-party games.

 

[GymWolf]

Why did I keep repeatedly seeing "30+TF" thrown around

Sound better when you have to sell a mid upgrade for 920 euros.

 

[Kerotan]

2.1

Yeah but the bandwidth available on the Xbox port is higher then the ps5 for example. Do we know the pros?

 

[Loxus]

What are you talking about? The user manual now overrides the dev documentation that leaked? . If it were about dual rate FP16 (RPM is PS4 Pro old and then some) they would have indicated it.

Yes, following the document, it's still very possible it has dual-issue.

I don't even know why the manual would include the TFlops, since I'm told it's a useless metric.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

If they were shifting away from the TFlop number, we should never know the PS5 Pro has 16.7 TFlop.

This is just full disclosure. Same way we know the total power limit of the PSU even if the actual console in operation will never naturally draw up to 390W. And take note of the one place it was officially disclosed. In the console manual. You cant say you don't see a difference between that and say how at some point the TF number would be the only thing initially marketed.

It's the best way to gauge a GPU's performance. I don't even know what the problem is with you guys and hating TFlop.

Not saying its not. But now, it's only used as exactly what it always was. A scientific marker of theoretical performance. Not the catch all buzz phrase that it was being used as before.

As for why we are hating TF? Well, because we believe the industry and the tech driving it has moved on from that. Eg... that TF number doesn't account for things like PSSR and better RT... or even bandwidth.

Are meaningful AI improvements and RT really that realistic?

I'm doubtful.

diminishing returns seems like a real thing for next gen more than ever

Of course, they are.

Think of it this way, going from 4nm to 2nm, should mean that you can fit 2x the compute in the same space. But if you are keeping your CU count the same, that means you can instead have CUs that are twice as big as the current ones at 4nm. If you aren't really touching the raster performance outside of faster clocks and better architecture, then it means you can instead invest in more RT units per CU, more AI-specific hardware, more cache, more RAM....etc.

And if looking at the geometrically dense games we have today, it should be clear that AI and RT and RAM quantity and bandwidth, are actually the things that can make the biggest visual impact in games going forward. Not more Raster performance... The same way we outgrew sprites and polygons, is the same way we are outgrowing raster performance.

 

[Dr. Suchong]

Richard having bad luck with packaging again.

He can scarcely conceal his contempt.
His ass is still burning with the power of a thousand suns because of the way Sony flatlined Sega's efforts way back.
Having said that, that packaging is abysmal.
£700 console in paper thin card, surrounded by egg boxes.
Absolutely disgusting.

 

[64bitbros]

He can scarcely conceal his contempt.
His ass is still burning with the power of a thousand suns because of the way Sony flatlined Sega's efforts way back.
Having said that, that packaging is abysmal.
£700 console in paper thin card, surrounded by egg boxes.
Absolutely disgusting.

You mean great ecological packaging.

 

[Gaiff]

I remember this, but it was always nonsense and more of a CPU test than anything else. GN really missed the mark on that one.