Flutta
Banned
I’m conflicted here, should i even care?
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PlayStation Is Being Hit With A New Wave Of Layoffs
- Thread starter adamsapple
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RickMasters
Member
Long term gamepass will pan out because everything is going the way of subscriptions. Movies and music are already there…. Consumer habits will make the shift soon enough and gamepass will pay off, even if they have to eat some losses short term. Things will look different when COD is gamepass fodder and they have all their studios releasing games on time and at a high level of quality.
As for Apple TV being repurposed as a games console? Not gonna happen. I own a lot of Apple product and follow the company. If you understand what they see gaming as you will understand why they will never make a game box or waste R&D on set top box devices when they see the future in their headsets, tablets and productivity devices like t he max pro and max studio. Apple are the least interested in gaming of the big companies you mentioned.
As you said yourself…. Google drops support for its products all the time. Something I’m sure has not gone unotticed by devs and general consumers either. So I don’t see them taking yet another failed attempt at gaming hardware.
As for Amazon, I don’t see them repurposing things like fire stick for gaming when they clearly see mobile gaming as more valuable.
You are talking about companies that really don’t give a shit about traditional console gaming… at all. so I think this is all wishful thinking of hypothetical scenarios that will never come true. They are not gonna invest in the console space when they can make more money and also save the cost of R&D by simply buying publishers and getting you intent he or eco systems. Apple would rather you play a game on their iPad or a Mac mini. Their future is in their headsets….. so what would make you think they would spend money repurposing current tech for a purpose they have no interest in pursuing… apple has no desire to be Sony or Nintendo… they are vastly bigger than gaming companies, to the point where they don’t need it but see it as an opportunity to get more people on into their products and eco systems. Why make a console when they can just sell you a Mac mini or a tablet that already plays games that you can already buy in stores they have already set up?. It’s tok far fetched to think apple, Amazon or Google would fill Xbox shoes, simply because they don’t have the Desire, experience be or even care too.
Shit….. if this was the late 90s I would be agreeing with you. But where gaming is now?….. just not gonna happen. I’ll Eve go as far as saying we will never hear of a new console manufacturer entering the space. Stark contrast to the 90s when everybody from Phillips to Panasonic wanted in on the console market….. times have changed.
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RickMasters
Member
Agree. They really missed the boat by not embracing the creative community on PC…. And I would imagine that game would have been so much more intuitive to create with, had it had mouse and keyboard support to boot.
And yeah…. Crazy that GT is not on PC these days. Especially ally with the focus on esports so much. It cost thenthat official FIA licence didn’t it? Not even saying they need to port to other consoles but Atleast lock in the PC audience and keep that FIA licence attached to the game.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I mean you port it to PC, expand your revenue, use that revenue to license thinks like WRC, F1, and Nascar, and release seasonal expansions to GT7 based on the individual license. Because you're releasing on PC, PS4, and PS5... you're open to a lot more revenue to make these worth it.
RickMasters
Member
I think what people also need to accept is that ASS games take longer to make these days. Require more staff etc. wondering if AI assisted art will help with development of AAA games in the near future. Could save the costs on artists but they have to make sure their most talented artists are working with those AI art-bots. Maybe the same could apply to voice actors. Maybe AI NPCs will play a bigger role in crafting stories and characters in future games.
Either way there is deffo some kind of serious cost and resource issues associated with AAA games that effects their development. The industry a sec a whole needs to figure that one out.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Production Coordinator at Naughty Dog, and Markos Orfanos, Quality Assurance Tester / Dev Support at Naughty Dog
accountability.
accountability.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
Alanah is hot, so yes.I’m conflicted here, should i even care?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
It was sad when the team behind the Vita left and then Sony stopped supporting it. I miss the themes and all the features of the Vita and PS3. It feels like Sony builds a culture and then they shut it down for all their new universal changes.
ShadyAcshuns
Member
Time to sell another warehouse.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Games take time. To plug the gaps they've struck deals for Rise of the Ronin, Stellar Blade etc and have Wolverine and Death Stranding announced.
MasterCornholio
Member
Spiderman 2 reviews
Hopefully they have some actual good news for the sandwich, and it's not going to be Spiderman 2 sales figures.
Well it's possible for Insomniac to have layoffs after development is completed.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Subscriptions have been around forever. I think equating the cutting of the cord which was already a subscription model to subscription streaming services and everything going subscription is a mistake. Everything isn't going subscription. People who think so need to take a look at Peleton, who are likely to go out of business.
There is no additional R&D. You can already play RE4 on the iphone. All this is is a suped up process A18 Bionic in an Apple TV with a gamepad. They've already built much of the ecosystem to support a console and allowing games to be played on a central device in addition to their phones, laptops, and tablets is no large departure.
You don't see them taking a stab at it because developers would be wary? That literally has never stopped them in the past with anything they've gotten back into. So that just sounds like personal bias.
Amazon is putting significant money into gaming, particularly AAA gaming... that's not just mobile...
Microsoft didn't give a shit about traditional console gaming before the Xbox nor did Sony. We just saw Apple get into the TV show/Movie market after never being involved before. Netflix starting making their own original tv and movies and now are getting into games. Amazon got into the video market as well and bought MGM.
You aren't keeping up with how these companies are doing business.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I don't really agree with this. For starters the console industry doesn't "have" to be a 3-pronged race, that's just what we've gotten used to over time. The market could drop to two competitors in theory and it would be perfectly fine. Other companies acting as platform holders aren't the only thing companies who are already platform holders, have to account for. If customers don't like what a market with less competitors is offering, they may just exit the market and take their money elsewhere. Customer standards and tastes won't change just because the Big 3 become the Big 2; if anything that puts more pressure on who remains, in order to compete.
Now, I do agree with the idea that the account is what's most important but, just because Microsoft has the services, software and hardware, doesn't mean they're the best equipped for a transition to services or subscription-based gaming. Sony have those same things, hell even Nintendo does, and they both have two things Microsoft doesn't: leading 1P content and leadership that can creatively innovate with their 1P software. The latter is in large part due to corporate culture that's been built over decades organically, you can't just "buy" that in the span of a few years.
So, Microsoft have big challenges first of all, in just integrating the new studios from Zenimax and ABK. That "limited integration" model might be in part to appease regulators, but it won't do much in allowing them to maximize the usage of the studios under those publishing arms. Both Zenimax and ABK had some bad corporate culture, and even if Microsoft somehow manage to fix that (I doubt they do), you can still end up with having a flock of studios with incompatible workplace cultures, development pipelines, development philosophies etc. So either your upper-level management has to be insanely good at handling those disparate elements, or you unify them tightly, preferably both, while still letting studios retain individuality where it matters most.
The upper-level management at Xbox, quite frankly, doesn't have the chops to do any of this IMO, so there will still be problems with content years from now. Which means there will also be problems with justifying the hardware, the service, so on and so forth. Microsoft have arguably the most raw resources to handle what you'd consider an industry transition into a services/account-based era, but they also have the worst management to leverage them. Meaning, there's a good chance they just produce a wet fart.
Besides, I don't think there's any mass transition away from hardware for the industry anytime soon. We haven't seen the peak of what immersion a dedicated console experience can bring, there is still at least a good generation to go before we see such. Which is why I've been perplexed (in a bad way) by some of Sony's focus outside of the PlayStation console the past couple years (mainly regarding PC), and the bloat of GaaS they seemed to of wanted...but maybe (hopefully) internally they were already arriving at similar conclusions and have been taking measures to correct those issues. Because otherwise, they're practically golden. Aggressive expansion of non-catalog content to outside platforms like PC, or absolute heavy pushes into GaaS...I don't think Sony needs to worry about the industry favoring such a huge transitionary shift until late the very back end of next decade, though of course it's good to start drafting plans and ideas for handling that, now.
Back to Microsoft though; supposing the management stays the same (or gets worst), and knowing what gets negatively affected as such, then the one thing that will help them stay afloat and possibly see some big growth, is results from their acquired gaming content across Zenimax, ABK, and some of the smaller studios they purchased before them. Though, IMO, that would be gimped to some degree if they continue "only" a pseudo-multiplatform strategy, or trying to push Xbox with a traditional dedicated console business model. They really should be worrying about re-securing PC gaming more tightly under their domain because right now that is Valve's territory. There's no market reality where they can acquire Valve or Steam (PC storefront with > 85% market share would give Microsoft an instant monopoly if they purchased it), and Valve has no issue with wanting to shift Steam users to Linux & Steam OS in droves as time goes on.
Accounts and the services that host those accounts don't mean much if you lack the hardware to best leverage them; if Xbox consoles are stalling/declining in market growth, and PC gets usurped by Valve with Linux & Steam OS (shifting PC gamers away from Windows), that leaves Microsoft a bit up shit's creek. But I guess we'll see how it all plays out in the next couple of years, which should give us indication as to Microsoft's longer-term strategy going forward.
semiconscious
Member
hasn't the point/goal of all stem-related work always basically been the creation of software that can create software? is there anything an ai would find inherently easier to do than write software?...
tech work itself will never die. but, by its very nature, it will, inevitably, eventually become fully automated...
tech work itself will never die. but, by its very nature, it will, inevitably, eventually become fully automated...
RAIDEN1
Member
No, but I am just saying though, players come and go, look at Sega, Atari, Commodore, 3DO, NEC....
Timberwolf25
Member
I consider her mid, but doable
Mortisfacio
Member
Hard to really tell if it's just par for the course or not. Tech industry as a whole seems to be laying off 10-20% of their staff, large portion of that being recruiters for some of these bigger companies. Company I work for has laid off almost 10% so far, but nobody in my group has been let go.
LordBlodgett
Member
Expect this across the entire entertainment industry. The entire online entertainment industry had outsized gains during the Covid lock-downs and staffed up thinking that this growth would be permanent. Now companies are using the slight pullback in online streaming, social media engagement, music, and video games as a good excuse for cutting employees. I know it's trendy to say that you feel sorry for those being fired, and we all hate seeing layoffs, but just compare pre-Covid staff numbers to now and you will see that in the case of most of these large companies they are just paring back to where they already were.
X-Wing
Member
Unlikely since development now will fully shift to Wolverine.
Kuwitzzer
Member
I agree, players come and go, which means Xbox may go, Nintendo may go, and Playstation may go.
RAIDEN1
Member
Nintendo somehow seems to weather the storm for the past 40 years, companies have come on tried to take them on, they didn't necessarily have at times the most powerful hardware units against the competition, yet somehow they always found a way to stand tall, (for want of a better word..)
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RickMasters
Member
Personal bias? I own An iPhone 11, 13 and 14 pro max. I also own a Mac Pro which set me back £15’000….. I’m the last person you can accuse of having anything against apple when I have probably spent more on apple products than anybody on this forum over the course of the last 20 years. I say what I say about apple because I know apple…. I been a customer of their most expensive pro- products for decades now….. and they have never shown an interest in serious AAA gaming. It really is an after thought for them. Not speaking from bias…. Speaking from my professional and consumer experiences with apple products.
And again…. Not saying Amazon won’t be buying game devs. But they won’t be buying those devs with the intent of putting out a console
And you are dead wrong about Sony not giving a shit about gaming….. they weee publishing snea and mega drive games for years alongside trying to get into bed with Nintendo long before the PS1 was even a thing. So let’s not get all revisionist about that….. MS came in day one with their own console.
And yea I’m fully aware of Netflix getting into gaming and how else do you think you will be playing them games outside of streaming? You think Netflix are gonna make a console now, too? That’s far fetched….
The movie and music biz is already prioritised around streaming and subscriptions. I think anybody who thinks most gamers won’t go that route themselves ain’t keeping up with consumer habits and how that dictates things in industry.
Perhaps it’s you that is not keeping up with the way these business are doing things. You honestly think subs won’t be the standard. You are entitled to that opinion but it’s gonna prove to be more and more wrong with each passing year.
Anybody who thinks subs are not the future is either over 40 and out of touch with modern reality and where the future is of gaming is going. Or doesn’t have kids. If you got kids and notice their gaming habits you can see where it’s going.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
If worst comes to worst, I got her covered.......
in jizz
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Kuwitzzer
Member
Playstation has also existed for about 29 years (will be 30 by December of next year) and they are at their peak.
TheRedRiders
Member
Kuwitzzer
Member
You have no evidence to even support your hypothesis except for the correlation with movies which is flawed because movies theaters exist and blockbuster movies earn most of their money from there. If ever these high budget block buster movies leave the theater entirely and just appear on streaming services, they will be doomed in one way or another (degraded quality in everything).
RickMasters
Member
I think a lot of what your saying here hinges on your hopes that MS fails.
Str moving over to Linux would hurt valve. Maybe some hardcore PC gaming enthusiasts who like to build their own rigs would go over to Linux but I wouldn’t move any of my PC over to Linux simply because It wouldn’t work with any of my music production. Or video editing software… the hardware is not compatible with Linux either. Which brings me to my next point…. Most people who own a PC are not gaming on them. They are tools for work and productivity to most people and all of them run on windows. And PC devs themselves are not writing the games for Linux on masse. At a time when PC gaming is pretty niche, I don’t see valve going out their way for the hypothetical scenario you mentioned.
Also…. I never said their will be a mass transition away from native gaming boxes….. I specifically said the transition comes in the form of consumer purchasing habits…. Highlighted against a background of economic uncertainty ( let’s see how many people want to pay 100 dollars for a game in a few years versus who would rather spend 130 bucks on a sun for the year) we will see the move away from purchasing games to subbing them. Most games are one and done experiences anyway or on the other end GAAS.
Consumers will decide what makes sense for them and the industry will fall in line with it.
I stand by what I say. They have the resources. They are scooping up IP…. They ain’t going anywhere. They are preparing for where things go next. We can’t all sit here and say otherwise but it what it is at the end of the day. I have no doubt the very subject of this exchange between us will one day be the front and center topic on forums like this.
Subs will replace the idea of buying games as it has done in other forms of media. For every failed attempt there is an iTunes, Netflix, Spotify that is kiiiling it out here. Gaming will move in that direction sooner or later whether anybody on the gaf likes it or not. That’s where consumer habits are going. And you ask most people they prefer it. I don’t here music or movie fans complaining. And the only time I hear people crying about subs is on the GAF. In reply life people have bills and kids to feed. Cars to keep gassed up. Clothes to buy. Gaming is the least important thing to spend your money on. So for most they will happily sub. And MS are infact best positioned for that transition. You’ll see……
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Razor thin?
Since about 2016-2017 when gamers transitioned a lot to digital and console gamers started amping up on MTX (where Sony gets big cuts), Sony's gaming division makes about $2 billion profit per year. A couple years ago during covid they made $3 billion profit. They've made over $10 billion profits since 2016-2017.
They also made money during the PS1-PS2 era, but lost most of it back on budget busting PS3.
Theyve got tons of money to spend, but prefer to bank it. How much does it cost to make a AAA game? $200 million over 5 years? In 5 years, their gaming division makes $10 billion profit. They can make more games of they want. But with the oodles of money flowing in, they dont want to rock the boat. Thats why they are playing safe making sequels to their big IPs, whereas during the PS2/PS3 days they made tons of games across genres even though they made far less profit. Like Valve and Steam, churning out tons of games isnt that important when the ecosystem revenue makes up for it (sit back and collect).
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Timberwolf25
Member
It's hard to compare when the only place to watch some blockbuster movies is upon release at the movie theaters. If they were available day and date on subscription services or to watch at home via a rental service somehow, would the majority of the income be made at the theatres? I know for my family, I've avoided many movies on release and opted to wait til it was released on a sub or rental service because going to the cinema just isn't enjoyable anymore.
As a whole, entertainment seems to be trending to people absorbing it at home imo. I think it's why we see more and more of the movie studios having a streaming service or partnering with a streaming service (Amazon, Netflixm etc) to have movies on there digitally even before the physical copies release.
The only equivalent I could see to a movie theatre and games were back when we had old school arcades. Unfortunately that business model is no longer sustainable for most operators.
demigod
Member
HarryKS
is correct, it’s not just videogames. I went back to doing telecomm work and I hear there are lots of layoffs. The bosses at T-mobile in Dallas market was laid off. Crown Castle, Nokia, Ericsson etc, layoffs. Work has been slow this year compared to last year massively. Verizon’s budget was pretty much over already in June. Lots of guys doing tower work are looking for jobs. From what I hear, it has to do with the interest rates so the telecomms are cutting back on buying materials.
Timberwolf25
Member
I agree.
And although cloud gaming is kinda iffy right now, I think it has the potential to also be a part of the way we consume games in the future. The biggest hurdles it needs to overcome is latency, bandwith, resolution (can be related to bandwith and data caps (possibly others). All mostly solvable
I really thought VR was going to be the next big thing, but it hasn't taken hold like many, myself included, thought it would. Maybe because it's missing the social aspect of living room or multiplayer gaming?
DeceptiveAlarm
Gold Member
She gets fired we have a good chance she does only fans.
Timberwolf25
Member
I'm sure IGN would take her back as well
ChorizoPicozo
Member
They are not "so awesome", just less bad than the others publishers.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Activision alone has been making nearly 2 billion in profit a year since 2018. Sony lost A LOT of money with the PS3 and years where they weren't at all profitable. And 10 billion in profit just isn't enough to compete at the level we're seeing now.
They do not have a lot of cash on hand. They've absolutely been spending that on game development.
You make it sound like they work on 1 AAA game at a time.
You compare that to Netflix who made 4-5 billion each year the last couple of years in net income. Sony can't compete with these companies at scale.
Since 2016, Nintendo has made nearly 20 billion in net income...
That the market leader has made half that of Nintendo despite having far greater software sales with 3rd party royalties and MTX, goes so show there is a serious problem with Sony's operating model and this is what Jim Ryan has tried to change.
Mibu no ookami
Banned
Your bias isn't against Apple, your bias is in thinking because something hasn't happened yet it won't happen.
Sony had a minor publishing studio. Smaller than anything Amazon has now.
I didn't claim Netflix was going to create a console.
Movies and music are easily consumable through subscription. Games are not. I can listen to music literally all day, I can't play games all day. With Movies especially combined with TV, they're infinitely more consumable than playing a 30 hour game.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
That $10 billion profit is after all gaming studio expenses. So whatever games they are making is already factored in.
Sony is spending $10 billion on game development??? If you claim so, which financial statement says so?
Mibu no ookami
Banned
I swear people just make things up... Where did I say they spent 10 billion on game development. I said they spend more than 200 million every 5 years since they make more than 1 game at a time.
What I said was that 10 billion over 5-6 years isn't enough. Nintendo made that in between 2021-2022 alone.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
And spending $200M per key game every 5 years is nothing since it's already baked into $10 billion of net profits the gaming division has made the past bunch of years. It's probably even more than $10 billion as one of those covid years was $3 billion alone. And thats after all gaming costs factored in.
That's plenty of money.
Your fear issue isn't the amount of money made. It's whether or not Sony big wigs bank the gaming division money for corporate coffers, instead of making a lot more $200M games over 5 years (which is only $40M per year).
When Sony made less money in previous gens, they were amped up making tons of games. Now that they are raking in the money, then are risk averse and focus on the key IPs.
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Loxus
Member
From a Company/Business stand point, way the fuck would Sony layoff the developer/creator of one of their most successful franchises?
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Playstation survived and bounced back during the ps3 era, just like how Nintendo survived and bounced back during the wii u era,
Its the same thing, companies adapt and change.
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RickMasters
Member
Well
Right now the movie biz is in trouble. I’m sure you have heard about how all these Disney movies are not meeting their profits. Black Adam bombed at the cinemas. Indiana jones bombed at the cinemas. I could go on. Cinema ticket sales have been on the down turn ever since covid came and locked everybody in their yards. And with things getting more expensive…. including games….. and btw have you seen how much a date to the cinemas cost these days?…. Shit I’m better off taking my dates to wet willies or Margheritaville. I know I ain’t the only one that thinks like that.
Ask yourself… when is the last time you legit were excited to go see something at the cinema? We in phase four or MCU and the movies and the sales are getting worse. And it’s even worse for everybody outside of Disney.
But let’s just home in on subs and gaming for. A moment. Look around you at the world we are living in right now…. Recessions, high inflation rates on goods and essentials… and then we have the gaming industry driving up the cost of games at retail….. will you still feel the same way about subs when games cost £100 plus?…. For one and done experiences at that. Personally Indont so gameplus shit. I move on. I ain’t paying 70 bucks for that let alone 100 in a few years. Most people won’t either because at the end of the day. Games are not important. We all got bills and kids….
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Well
Right now the movie biz is in trouble. I’m sure you have heard about how all these Disney movies are not meeting their profits. Black Adam bombed at the cinemas. Indiana jones bombed at the cinemas. I could go on. Cinema ticket sales have been on the down turn ever since covid came and locked everybody in their yards. And with things getting more expensive…. including games….. and btw have you seen how much a date to the cinemas cost these days?…. Shit I’m better off taking my dates to wet willies or Margheritaville. I know I ain’t the only one that thinks like that.
Ask yourself… when is the last time you legit were excited to go see something at the cinema? We in phase four or MCU and the movies and the sales are getting worse. And it’s even worse for everybody outside of Disney.
But let’s just home in on subs and gaming for. A moment. Look around you at the world we are living in right now…. Recessions, high inflation rates on goods and essentials… and then we have the gaming industry driving up the cost of games at retail….. will you still feel the same way about subs when games cost £100 plus?…. For one and done experiences at that. Personally Indont so gameplus shit. I move on. I ain’t paying 70 bucks for that let alone 100 in a few years. Most people won’t either because at the end of the day. Games are not important. We all got bills and kids….
I dont think the gaming future will goes as what you hoped for.
1) Too many subscription services, and it will get worse, this will burden the consumers. And like what you said, consumers is going to prioritize their needs in the end.
2) Subscription fees is going to increase without stopping , its not going to stay the same forever. (take a look at netflix and recent gamepass and psplus price increase).
3) You need a crazy amount of users on the subscription service to be sustainable (its almost impossible to achieve that if you compare the number of gamers on the market), video game dev cost ballooning so fast that increasing the subscription fees isnt going to cut it. And lets not forget by increasing the price theres a risk of new/old users quit renewing the service as well.
4) Consumers are very sensitive towards the prices of subscription model, there is still a difference renting a service instead of owning something (physical, digital).
5) Subscription service has been around for quite sometime now.
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Alex Scott
Member
Which studio was hit with lay-offs?