• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Pokémon Community Thread 2: "This is the Real Power of Johto..."

Firestorm

Member
Does anyone else have any experience with these WiFi tournaments, that they can share?

This is the first one I entered, because why the hell not, I like my team and fancied some anonymous player battles.

I'm getting absolutely destroyed. I know my team has weaknesses, it's based purely on what pokémon I like personally. Snorlax, Electirvire, Drifblim, Togekiss, Honchkrow and Ludicolo.

I've fought 10 matches so far, and every single one of them has had some mix of either a shiny Thundurus/Landurus/Tornadus/Cressilia/Heatran/Virizion/Terrakion/Cobalion/insert legendary pokemon here. I know those particular legendaries are fair game, but shinies? For real? 10 in a row, different people, no joke. That can't seriously be legit, right? Some guys entire team was shiny.

I understand that these types of competitions attract the extreme hardcore players, with perfect teams and EVs and all that doodaa, but something feels off. I've won one match so far, on a lucky critical hit, but, for instance, one time, my Snorlax, with max EVs in Attack and HP, hit a Terrakion with Earthquake, powered up by a ground gem, and the fucking thing was still standing. It hadn't buffed itself at all either.

I dunno. I'm gonna keep battling because I'm trying to have fun here, despite my moaning, but I don't get how all these folk have *legit* shiny legendaries like that. Out of 1500 participants.

Edit: ffs... http://i.imgur.com/0dxwzY6l.jpg

Edit 2: Beat that guy, with his shiny Ludicolo, shiny Politoad, shiny Excadrill and shiny Thundurus, and he disconnected last minute. I'm done for tonight.
They're actually not hacking. Players have learned to manipulate the random number generator involved in creating shinies. Computers cannot create truly random numbers. That means your IVs, shinies, nature, etc. aren't actually random. They are all based off the time on your DS. By working backwards and reverse engineering this process, you can manipulate what you get by changing the time on your DS and then waiting a certain amount of frames to get a desired result.

The thing is, with this, people seem to do shiny Pokemon by default. And as a result of that + cloning, it seems shiny Pokemon are a lot more common than regular Pokemon. It sucks because shiny Pokemon are usually pretty ugly and players who don't know about the RNG and how it works usually think you're hacking -- causing a poorer experience for them as well as more disconnections. However, a lot of players just get Pokemon from people who enjoy breeding so that means they usually just take the shiny. After all, it can feel impolite to ask the person to do more work for you and get you a non-shiny one when a shiny is already available and does the same thing (This is exactly why I currently use a shiny Ferrothorn even though it looks like someone pissed on it).

As for your Snorlax, keep in mind that when a spread move hits your opponent and there are two Pokemon standing on their side of the field, it only hits for 75% power. That means the Earthquake had 75 Base Power and no STAB. Even with a Ground Gem and the Terrakion having 0 investment in its defenses, you cannot OHKO it:

252+ Atk Ground Gem Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 136-162 (81.92 - 97.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (via Honkalculator)

The disconnections are the worst part. Some people just won't let you take the win and Nintendo can't even tell who did it -_- It's ridiculous. I've been lucky to get few disconnectors but others aren't so lucky. The matchmaking is also terrible. I've been ranked over 1800 and received opponents below 1300 before. Also, that rank is just your Elo. There are over 25,000 players who'll enter the rankings so I'd say at least 30,000 are playing.

By the way, some of your favourites are very god. Togekiss and Ludicolo are two favourites of many for use (I use Togekiss on my team!). Honchkrow could be workable and one of my friends built a cool team around Drifblim last year. Snorlax I really would love to make work but not sure on him. Requires the proper support!

With the VGC rules, people often have the exact same team with a minor variation. This is why I don't partake in the VGC rule WiFi Competitions or the VGC itself. It sucks because people lack imagination.
That's bullshit. Don't blame your inactivity in competitive play due to a "lack of imagination." That's disingenuous to the creative players who do take part. It's especially a crappy thing to say considering you don't possess an ounce of the skill or creativity these players have.

I just published an article one of our players wrote on his team built around Rampardos. His loss in our tournament was to Wolfe, ranked 2nd in the world, using a team involving strategies with Delcatty, Gengar + Haunter, Gothitelle, and Disable Kingdra. He himself took 2nd at the World Championships using Exeggutor and brought to light how useful Skill Swap is. We also have players like Huy who uses things like this Ash team built around Pikachu and other Ash 'mons, the Choice Specs Gyarados team he took 9th in the World with (and revised version based on Skill Swap), and Shedinja which he used in an International Friendly against Japan and Korea.

Yes, the best Pokemon are undeniably Cresselia, Metagross, Thundurus, etc -- especially after Ray took the World Championships with them last year. And even then, his 2011 team showed the world the uses of Gothitelle and the Thundurus build that players use today.

These players are incredible strategists and though I really hope you've moved on from your days of saying "switching is cheap," I don't you're the right person to judge these players. If the metagame is stale, take advantage of it.

Shiny-wise, the people who usually partake in the VGC often use a technique known as RNG Abuse. It's using the game's random number generator with a piece of software so they can determine exactly when to commence battle to get Pokémon with IVs they want, and even them being shiny. Unfortunately, it's not trackable so TPCi have been unable to ban it. With X & Y and the 3DS not being hacked, it'll be less common.
Misleading to say that it's not "trackable" and therefore unbanned. That -- with the line before it -- implies some sort of software touching the game and that is not the case.

The official word from Pokemon was that this was completely legal just as EV training specific stats and any other part of the game that is hidden to the user is.

Basically, for fun with WiFi Competitions, don't participate in the International Challenges. Participate in the others such as the recent Rotation Battle focused Winter Friendly. Unfortunately, outside of Japan, it's rare to have ones without VGC rules. Japan has had some cool ones though: Single Battles using only Kanto Pokémon. Rotation Battle using only Eevee evolutions. Christmas Cup which had no Pokémon restrictions etc. Got a list of all B2W2 WiFi Competitions here: http://www.serebii.net/black2white2/wificompetitions.shtml
These will definitely have fewer competitive players, yes.

Same thing happened to me, played 6 matches and 4 of them had a full team of shinies, even legendary shinies (Thundurus and Landorus and some others).

Also there was a Chansey that i poisoned + Sandstorm and none of it would damage it, is there an ability/item that can make that possible?
Chansey and Blissey learn Skill Swap which is a great move on them. Did they by chance use that at some point in the match to take Magic Guard from a Reuniclus or Clefable or something like that? I've played in at least 500 battles over about a half dozen of these tournaments since 2011 and I've never played a hacked team. Well some were probably hacked but I've never played an illegal team.
 

Aggrotek

Member

Great post. I agree with everything you said 100%. RNGing is not really that big of an issue. It's just a means of saving time.

The only thing I hate is that it makes shinies less valuable. I am a shiny hunter, and I put a lot of time into finding random shinies.
 

Jofamo

Member
Thanks for the really informative post Firestorm. Can't argue with that. I'll learn from this and plan better next time. My team is very slow and weak on defence, and don't work particularly well in double matches.

I underestimated how hardcore the entrants for this tournament are.
 

JoeM86

Member
That's bullshit. Don't blame your inactivity in competitive play due to a "lack of imagination." That's disingenuous to the creative players who do take part. It's especially a crappy thing to say considering you don't possess an ounce of the skill or creativity these players have.

I just published an article one of our players wrote on his team built around Rampardos. His loss in our tournament was to Wolfe, ranked 2nd in the world, using a team involving strategies with Delcatty, Gengar + Haunter, Gothitelle, and Disable Kingdra. He himself took 2nd at the World Championships using Exeggutor and brought to light how useful Skill Swap is. We also have players like Huy who uses things like this Ash team built around Pikachu and other Ash 'mons, the Choice Specs Gyarados team he took 9th in the World with (and revised version based on Skill Swap), and Shedinja which he used in an International Friendly against Japan and Korea.

Yes, the best Pokemon are undeniably Cresselia, Metagross, Thundurus, etc -- especially after Ray took the World Championships with them last year. And even then, his 2011 team showed the world the uses of Gothitelle and the Thundurus build that players use today.

These players are incredible strategists and though I really hope you've moved on from your days of saying "switching is cheap," I don't you're the right person to judge these players. If the metagame is stale, take advantage of it.

Sorry but I have to disagree. While yes, many competitive players do get imaginative, and for that I have nothing but applause for and am happy about, whenever I go online in those WiFi Competitions it's typically the same team over and over with the same strategies over and over. That is what I'm getting at, not attacking the main competitive community, for whom I have nothing but respect.

Yes, back in 2003 when I said that, I was a bit naive, but things have changed. I am very well versed in the metagame now and I resent the implication otherwise just because I am frustrated with a certain part of it.

The fact is, many of these players don't come up with their own teams, merely use standards and that is the lack of imagination to which I was referring.

Misleading to say that it's not "trackable" and therefore unbanned. That -- with the line before it -- implies some sort of software touching the game and that is not the case.

The official word from Pokemon was that this was completely legal just as EV training specific stats and any other part of the game that is hidden to the user is.

I have personally been told that if it was traceable, they'd ban it because it goes against the whole ethos of Pokémon, but they cannot so they're publically fine with it. I can guarantee you that, behind the scenes, they are doing their best to prevent it from being able to be done in X & Y

These will definitely have fewer competitive players, yes.

They have more unique teams, and that's why I play them.
 
I went into the Elite Four in Black 2 without bothering to train after reaching the place and just bulldozed them. Only thing that went wrong was I tried to Swords Dance with Lucario and he got hit with Flamethrower before he could Ice Punch the Champion's entire team. The whole game up to this point was pretty much just going through the motions, and now it seems like the actual game has been unlocked. Can't believe you can't even breed Pokemon until after you've beaten the Elite Four.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
They were pretty easy for me too, bar Marshall. Krookodile + Moxy mowed down Psychic and Ghost mostly, and Kilingklang + Gear Shift + Gear Grind destroyed Iris.

The decision to move breeding post-E4 was definitely an odd one, excluding Gen 1, the last time the Breeding Center was post-E4 was in Fire Red and Leaf Green. It's even odder since you get access to the World Tournament and Join Avenue, both dealing with "the competitive side" before you can breed Pokemon.

One thing I'd love to see in X/Y is multiple breeding centers...well, like one building, but multiple stables so you can daycare/breed a lot of Pokemon at once.
 

Aggrotek

Member
:mad:




Halloween_R_I_P_gravestone.png
 
Whaaaat? How bad was it? Did ScraftyDevil kill everyone?


Remember, you talked about making a rule so that if you blacked-out you could maybe start back again. :(
 

upandaway

Member
I went into the Elite Four in Black 2 without bothering to train after reaching the place and just bulldozed them. Only thing that went wrong was I tried to Swords Dance with Lucario and he got hit with Flamethrower before he could Ice Punch the Champion's entire team. The whole game up to this point was pretty much just going through the motions, and now it seems like the actual game has been unlocked. Can't believe you can't even breed Pokemon until after you've beaten the Elite Four.
Yeah the Elite Four were a bit too specialized this time. Because I couldn't find a full 6 team by the time I reached them (I only settled on 4), I decided to beat each E4 member with one Pokemon, 1 HP heal, 1 X item and no grinding. It was really fun.

With the exception of SSHG it's also the shortest time I took to get to the E4 (I think less than 40 hours?). They definitely put a lot more of their eggs in the postgame basket this time around.
 

Stage On

Member
One thing I'd love to see in X/Y is multiple breeding centers...well, like one building, but multiple stables so you can daycare/breed a lot of Pokemon at once.

Anything to make it faster to breed them would be appreciated, I've love an egg incubator as well so you don't have to run all over the place just to hatch them.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Also giving you the option to place Eggs directly into your PC.

I also think it'd be cool if perhaps, when in certain "safe" areas like towns and such, you could access a "WiFi" (in game terms, not real-life) Connection to the PC and switch Pokemon between your Party/Box without having to go to the PokeCenter.
 
Anything to make it faster to breed them would be appreciated, I've love an egg incubator as well so you don't have to run all over the place just to hatch them.

The Join Avenue Nursery is great in B2/W2 for hatching eggs faster. You eventually gain the ability to pay to hatch an egg instantly!
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
The Join Avenue Nursery is great in B2/W2 for hatching eggs faster. You eventually gain the ability to pay to hatch an egg instantly!

Wait, there's a Nursery in Join Avenue too?

I really need to get working on that, I've barely touched it.
 
#1 rule of being around me: never listen to anything my pompous, wrong butt says.

I'd still listen to you, Scrafty. Someone has to believe! :D

Wait, there's a Nursery in Join Avenue too?

I really need to get working on that, I've barely touched it.

Too? The Nursery is different than the Day-Care Center, if that is what you are thinking. The only thing it is there for is to speed up hatching eggs.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I'd still listen to you, Scrafty. Someone has to believe! :D



Too? The Nursery is different than the Day-Care Center, if that is what you are thinking. The only thing it is there for is to speed up hatching eggs.

No, I meant I didn't know there was a "Nursery" that sped up the egg hatching process whatsoever.
 

Firestorm

Member
Sorry but I have to disagree. While yes, many competitive players do get imaginative, and for that I have nothing but applause for and am happy about, whenever I go online in those WiFi Competitions it's typically the same team over and over with the same strategies over and over. That is what I'm getting at, not attacking the main competitive community, for whom I have nothing but respect.

Yes, back in 2003 when I said that, I was a bit naive, but things have changed. I am very well versed in the metagame now and I resent the implication otherwise just because I am frustrated with a certain part of it.

The fact is, many of these players don't come up with their own teams, merely use standards and that is the lack of imagination to which I was referring.

[...]

They have more unique teams, and that's why I play them.
A lot of players do copy teams these days but I think what you do matters more than what they do. An in-game team might be more "unique" because really who uses Serperior, but please don't even try to say that's more creative or interesting. What's creative and interesting is players using a Pokemon's abilities to perform strategies that work. Finding out a way to use a Pokemon in a cool way. Using a Blastoise with Surf / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Blizzard might be "unique" in competitive play, but it's not interesting nor is it interesting to play against. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play a hundred Ray teams than have to go up against a hundred in-game teams. And judging by the GBU Triples stats, that's exactly what a lot of those are.

I have personally been told that if it was traceable, they'd ban it because it goes against the whole ethos of Pokémon, but they cannot so they're publically fine with it. I can guarantee you that, behind the scenes, they are doing their best to prevent it from being able to be done in X & Y
Really? So manipulating the RNG goes against the ethos of Pokemon, but breeding hundreds of baby Pokemon and throwing away those deemed too weak is completely in line with it? Damn. Guess that Paul kid in the anime had it right all along.

Anyway, what I said was also something from a TPCi employee's mouth. He's no longer the Tournament Planner, but I don't think the new one minds RNGing at all given what I know about him. They will definitely be making it harder to manipulate in X&Y just like they already made it harder to manipulate in BW2. In fact, we currently would be unable to RNG the X&Y games because the 3DS hasn't been cracked yet.
 

Neo Child

Banned
Indeed, and there will be a feud between her Dragonite and Iris' Dragonite.

The new saga is looking more interesting with each bit of new info

Anime Spoilers forum or...?

edit: yup, seen them. almost definately ash's, though like i said on the spp forums he's missing his scarf. or was that the girl? idk
 
A lot of players do copy teams these days but I think what you do matters more than what they do. An in-game team might be more "unique" because really who uses Serperior, but please don't even try to say that's more creative or interesting. What's creative and interesting is players using a Pokemon's abilities to perform strategies that work. Finding out a way to use a Pokemon in a cool way. Using a Blastoise with Surf / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Blizzard might be "unique" in competitive play, but it's not interesting nor is it interesting to play against. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play a hundred Ray teams than have to go up against a hundred in-game teams. And judging by the GBU Triples stats, that's exactly what a lot of those are.

I've used a Serperior quite a bit online... to moderate success lol (so many weaknesses!). Anyways you're absolutely right, and because those standard teams are common because they're the 'best', it's all the more satisfying when you can beat them with a not-so-standard team. I guess I mean by working on making counters for those teams. Like when I had a lot of trouble beating Trick Room teams with Reuniclus and Amoonguss, I went and bred an Escavalier, partly because it's awesome and also because it's incredibly slow and can counter them with Trick Room set up. It kicked butt :3.
 

Firestorm

Member
My International Challenge story from yesterday: Was at a local league and a few players were playing so I joined in. But then I decided to do a TCG match at the same time and it did NOT end well. Forgot I had the game on for two different turns which Slowking reversed Trick Room on... Came down to Scrafty vs Thundurus as a result and he KO'd me with two Thunders :(

Apparently Ash's Butterfree is making a comeback, and Clair has a shiny Druggidon.

DOES IT HAVE A SCARF?

I've used a Serperior quite a bit online... to moderate success lol (so many weaknesses!). Anyways you're absolutely right, and because those standard teams are common because they're the 'best', it's all the more satisfying when you can beat them with a not-so-standard team. I guess I mean by working on making counters for those teams. Like when I had a lot of trouble beating Trick Room teams with Reuniclus and Amoonguss, I went and bred an Escavalier, partly because it's awesome and also because it's incredibly slow and can counter them with Trick Room set up. It kicked butt :3.
Escavalier is really good! It's one of Korea's favourites! I consider it their National Pokemon XD
 
Top Bottom