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[Kad5]

This is a quality post. If TA extrapolates that thoughtwave to education, energy, and basic necessities for the elderly and poor, he's arguing in favor of FDR as the greatest President of all time. Which would be true save Washington and Lincoln.



This reads more like needing attention rather than a serious question. Why are you here? Do you believe that or not? Do you know what subsidies are and why they're preferred rather than direct stimulus? Do you know why they exist and which purpose they serve? My gut says you're not sure about any of the above which is why you posed it as a question, but my brain says you're just repeating things you've heard and don't know better. Read: basic macro economic theory.

I am aware of the arguments for subsidies. You might find this article interesting however:

http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/features/0303/newzealand_subsidies.shtml

Also, relevant video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=B_FncAQsAJg

Btw i'm a huge fan of Hayek if that means anything to you. But i'm just speaking for myself.

 

[ToxicAdam]

47 days, 18 hours, 39 minutes...

Hurry the fuck up!

I concur .. the Bush Tax Cut renewal debate will be FAR more interesting than this election.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Heh. This is how I like to think of myself, though with a heavy socially liberal tilt. I'm a very data-driven person, and I revise by views on that basis.

That's why the AHBUHDAR threads wouldn't have been the same without you.

 

[Oblivion]

Heh. This is how I like to think of myself, though with a heavy socially liberal tilt. I'm a very data-driven person, and I revise by views on that basis.

If you were part of Real America, you wouldn't have to. :smug

 

[Vahagn]

People Comparing Obama to Dukakis or Carter basically have no understanding of who Obama is. That's like comparing Gerald Ford or Bob Dole to Reagan.


Obama sparked a revolution in this country, he inspired a nation, gave hope to a generation, ran as a full on progressive promising tax increases on those making 250K +, said health care is a right, said he'd end the war in iraq, said he'd invest in education and infrastructure, completely tore apart and argued against the Reagan Revolution's ideals and theories, supported Pro-Choice more-so than any other candidate, was more supportive of gay rights than any other president.


Dude ran as a progressive and won in a landslide, earning more votes than anyone else in history by a long shot. You don't win 70 million votes as a Black Progressive candidate in this country unless there's something special about you. Republicans are still so blinded by their own hatred of the guy, that they can't see it at all. He was Kennedy, FDR esque as a candidate, and he still is. And you're going to need a hell of a lot more than a robot with no intellectual creativity and personality to beat Barack Obama in a campaign.

 

[GhaleonEB]

That's why the AHBUHDAR threads wouldn't have been the same without you.

If it's at all possible to drop in Excel, I've probably done it.

 

[Cloudy]

I concur .. the Bush Tax Cut renewal debate will be FAR more interesting than this election.

If Obama wins, his base will riot if he extends it for everyone again.

 

[tranciful]

Also, relevant video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=B_FncAQsAJg

This is what bugs me about libertarians. They think we're too stupid to ever accomplish anything together.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I concur .. the Bush Tax Cut renewal debate will be FAR more interesting than this election.

Depressing but true. Might as well start calling them the Obama tax cuts

 

[ToxicAdam]

If Obama wins, his base will riot if he extends it for everyone again.

You must have missed the past 3 months where every talking head on the left has treated the 'fiscal cliff' like the second coming of the 2008 crash.


Prepare for another 3 and out (ie: PUNT!)

 

[Cloudy]

You must have missed the past 3 months where every talking head on the left has treated the 'fiscal cliff' like the second coming of the 2008 crash.

Only on the left? I turn on Fox News and every other segment is about the "job-killing cuts to the military due to Obama's sequestration".

If Obama wins, the Bush tax cuts are his leverage to get a deficit deal. If Romney wins, I'm not sure what happens

 

[Black Mamba]

People Comparing Obama to Dukakis or Carter basically have no understanding of who Obama is. That's like comparing Gerald Ford or Bob Dole to Reagan.


Obama sparked a revolution in this country, he inspired a nation, gave hope to a generation, ran as a full on progressive promising tax increases on those making 250K +, said health care is a right, said he'd end the war in iraq, said he'd invest in education and infrastructure, completely tore apart and argued against the Reagan Revolution's ideals and theories, supported Pro-Choice more-so than any other candidate, was more supportive of gay rights than any other president.


Dude ran as a progressive and won in a landslide, earning more votes than anyone else in history by a long shot. You don't win 70 million votes as a Black Progressive candidate in this country unless there's something special about you. Republicans are still so blinded by their own hatred of the guy, that they can't see it at all. He was Kennedy, FDR esque as a candidate, and he still is. And you're going to need a hell of a lot more than a robot with no intellectual creativity and personality to beat Barack Obama in a campaign.

The only people who compare Obama to Carter or those desperately trying to avoid the Kerry-Romney comparison which is fucking obvious.

 

[coldfoot]

You know what's funny? When a movie intended to be satirical actually becomes a political platform in real life. Private prisons, hospitals, and space exploration, you say?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3hA_don-WI&feature=player_detailpage#t=525s

 

[Cloudy]

Funny how Romney hasn't even released his tax returns yet. I wonder if they just refuse to release it now

 

[thatbox]

Oblivion is really linin' 'em up in all the non-PoliGAF threads lately.

 

[PhoenixDark]

People Comparing Obama to Dukakis or Carter basically have no understanding of who Obama is. That's like comparing Gerald Ford or Bob Dole to Reagan.


Obama sparked a revolution in this country, he inspired a nation, gave hope to a generation, ran as a full on progressive promising tax increases on those making 250K +, said health care is a right, said he'd end the war in iraq, said he'd invest in education and infrastructure, completely tore apart and argued against the Reagan Revolution's ideals and theories, supported Pro-Choice more-so than any other candidate, was more supportive of gay rights than any other president.


Dude ran as a progressive and won in a landslide, earning more votes than anyone else in history by a long shot. You don't win 70 million votes as a Black Progressive candidate in this country unless there's something special about you. Republicans are still so blinded by their own hatred of the guy, that they can't see it at all. He was Kennedy, FDR esque as a candidate, and he still is. And you're going to need a hell of a lot more than a robot with no intellectual creativity and personality to beat Barack Obama in a campaign.

Slow your roll buddy, whoa. He may have sparked a revolution and healed the earth but he forgot why he was elected in the first place: to fix the economy. His policies aren't popular, but he's a very good politician and probably can't be beaten by a bad politician.

You're right that he's no Carter. While I respect Carter, Carter didn't have the power to transform the way people think about certain issues (I will agree that Obama has moved the dial on a number of issues). Carter was a somewhat uninspiring man who won because he was a decent, good man at a time when the country needed that (post Watergate). It wasn't his fault that the economy stalled and his own foreign policy operation failed. Carter was not a good politician. Obama is a great politician. That alone makes the comparisons problematic

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I, for one, am glad Romney owned those comments rather than running from them.

It's way better than a shitty ass fake apology.

 

[Triple U]

I agree more or less with Vahagn. You can still harp on the economy but in reality, almost everything he tried was shot down. Mostly due to a Republican mission of dragging him thru the mud(and the whole nation if they had too). To say he hasn't had any cooperation would be a understatement...

 

[pigeon]

Slow your roll buddy, whoa. He may have sparked a revolution and healed the earth but he forgot why he was elected in the first place: to fix the economy.

This is a ridiculous statement, man. He's spent so much time on the economy he almost didn't have time to pass universal healthcare.

 

[PhoenixDark]

This is a ridiculous statement, man. He's spent so much time on the economy he almost didn't have time to pass universal healthcare.

I can't tell if you're being serious or joking

 

[Black Mamba]

I can't tell if you're being serious or joking

oh, someone doesn't like when the shoe's on the other foot, eh?

 

[Vahagn]

Slow your roll buddy, whoa. He may have sparked a revolution and healed the earth but he forgot why he was elected in the first place: to fix the economy. His policies aren't popular, but he's a very good politician and probably can't be beaten by a bad politician.

You're right that he's no Carter. While I respect Carter, Carter didn't have the power to transform the way people think about certain issues (I will agree that Obama has moved the dial on a number of issues). Carter was a somewhat uninspiring man who won because he was a decent, good man at a time when the country needed that (post Watergate). It wasn't his fault that the economy stalled and his own foreign policy operation failed. Carter was not a good politician. Obama is a great politician. That alone makes the comparisons problematic

So you agreed with me basically as I said nothing about the President Obama and all about the Candidate. I have no doubt that had Carter been given 4 more years, he would have fixed much of the messes as effectively as Reagan, this is simply to point out that Obama sparked a revolution of thought and sentiment in this country much like Reagan did, and JFK before him, and FDR before him. We can debate how effective he's been as president, but to pencil him in with the bland candidate mold of Dukakis/Dole/Carter/Ford as some in the right try to do is just insane.


Obama has put such an empathetic and compassionate feel to government aid that "government is the problem" is no longer a winning campaign strategy in a country many believe to be a majority conservative. He's not the perfect President, although I believe if he's re-elected and the economy gets under 6% unemployment by the end of his term, the war in Afghanistan is over, a major long term debt deal gets done, and Obamacare gets fully implemented - he'll leave office as a presidential icon.

That's saying a lot. 4 of the last 5 republican presidents have left office as negatives, the only exception being Reagan.

You've got 3 historical Republican Presidents since the 20th century (Reagan, Eisenhower, Teddy) - everyone else left office in a recession, a scandal, a great depression, or a great recession.

You've got 4 historocal Democratic ones in the same time (FDR, JFK, LBJ, Bill) and I think Obama if re- elected will be number 5 - and if a grand bargain debt deal is done and unemployment is under 6% when he leaves - probably the most historically significant since FDR. Think about that, he will have Passed Healthcare, Avenged our nations Worst Single Attack, Avoided a Great Depression, Re built America's Middle Class, passed the nations largest debt management deal, ended 2 wars.


And if we do create the 12 million new jobs the CBO is predicting and a grand bargain gets done with no foreign policy disasters - he'll be a legend.

As of now he redefined campaigning, fund raising, and shifted the general electorate further to the left on issues of taxes and fairness and social issues and foreign policy than anyone in recent memory.

 

[Diablos]

Peggy Noonan asking for the senior leaders of the Republican Party to help the Romney camp get back on track.

http://blogs.wsj.com/peggynoonan/2012/09/18/time-for-an-intervention/

Well, it's enitrely possible that he could tell everyone to gtfo. After that it would be interesting to see what happens.

It will also be interesting to see what he does in the debates... what if he does something totally unpredictable and changes the narrative in the middle of a debate?

 

[Dominican Power]

Red Eye is such a shitty show, jesus. I can't believe people actually watch this shitty network.

 

[Black Mamba]

So you agreed with me basically as I said nothing about the President Obama and all about the Candidate. I have no doubt that had Carter been given 4 more years, he would have fixed much of the messes as effectively as Reagan, this is simply to point out that Obama sparked a revolution of thought and sentiment in this country much like Reagan did, and JFK before him, and FDR before him. We can debate how effective he's been as president, but to pencil him in with the bland candidate mold of Dukakis/Dole/Carter/Ford as some in the right try to do is just insane.


Obama has put such an empathetic and compassionate feel to government aid that "government is the problem" is no longer a winning campaign strategy in a country many believe to be a majority conservative. He's not the perfect President, although I believe if he's re-elected and the economy gets under 6% unemployment by the end of his term, the war in Afghanistan is over, a major long term debt deal gets done, and Obamacare gets fully implemented - he'll leave office as a presidential icon.

That's saying a lot. 4 of the last 5 republican presidents have left office as negatives, the only exception being Reagan.

You've got 3 historical Republican Presidents since the 20th century (Reagan, Eisenhower, Teddy) - everyone else left office in a recession, a scandal, a great depression, or a great recession.

You've got 4 historocal Democratic ones in the same time (FDR, JFK, LBJ, Bill) and I think Obama if re- elected will be number 5 - and if a grand bargain debt deal is done and unemployment is under 6% when he leaves - probably the most historically significant since FDR. Think about that, he will have Passed Healthcare, Avenged our nations Worst Single Attack, Avoided a Great Depression, Re built America's Middle Class, passed the nations largest debt management deal, ended 2 wars.


And if we do create the 12 million new jobs the CBO is predicting and a grand bargain gets done with no foreign policy disasters - he'll be a legend.

As of now he redefined campaigning, fund raising, and shifted the general electorate further to the left on issues of taxes and fairness and social issues and foreign policy than anyone in recent memory.

While I agree (barring a european collapse) that the US should get back to 6% unemployment, etc, I don't think Obama will rebuild the middle class.

Don't think there's a clear solution to that one. Globalization has changed that one and it will take more than 4 years to fix it.

Well, it's enitrely possible that he could tell everyone to gtfo. After that it would be interesting to see what happens.

It will also be interesting to see what he does in the debates... what if he does something totally unpredictable and changes the narrative in the middle of a debate?

Honestly, I think the debates are his only shot (barring downturn in economy). As I've said, Romney offers no alternatives to Obama outside of failed policies of the past (tax cuts for the rich) and some random shit few love like cutting planned parenthood. And his foreign policy has looked unpresidential.

He's an elite out of touch dork who plays by the rules most people don't. Nothing he can do will change this perception. So he has only the debate to offer. In which he's going to have to defeat Obama in an obvious manner, though given his stances I don't see how but it's at least possible.

That said, I think the more likely outcome is Romney being too aggressive in the debates and doing something really dumb like trying to argue Obama should apologize for taking credit for killing OBL and not crediting Seal Team 6. In which case, everyone but the base will look at him like he's an asshole.

 

[speculawyer]

I got curious on ballot issues this fall, since the Presidential race seems to be consuming everybody. There isn't terribly a lot to get excited for (in comparison to year's past). Especially in the swing states. Florida does have a shit-ton that may drive more conservatives to the polls, but Ohio and Virginia has virtually none. Kind of interesting.



http://www.ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/2012_ballot_measures

Ark and Mass are the only two states with medical marijuana votes.

Repeals ban of public dollars for religious funding

Do they realize they can't overturn the First Amendment with their local referendum?

 

[Rocket Scientist]

How big is espionage during these campaigns? Do the campaigns know each other's next moves or is it run tightly? I ask because I'm wondering how plausible it is for Romney to drop some bombs during the debates and make it work in his favor.

 

[Black Mamba]

How big is espionage during these campaigns? Do the campaigns know each other's next moves or is it run tightly? I ask because I'm wondering how plausible it is for Romney to drop some bombs during the debates and make it work in his favor.

What kind of bombs?

It's pretty bad strategy to hold onto something like what you want to do as President until the debates. It will come off as desperation. People should know your message by now.

 

[Vahagn]

While I agree (barring a european collapse) that the US should get back to 6% unemployment, etc, I don't think Obama will rebuild the middle class.

Don't think there's a clear solution to that one. Globalization has changed that one and it will take more than 4 years to fix it.




Honestly, I think the debates are his only shot (barring downturn in economy). As I've said, Romney offers no alternatives to Obama outside of failed policies of the past (tax cuts for the rich) and some random shit few love like cutting planned parenthood. And his foreign policy has looked unpresidential.

He's an elite out of touch dork who plays by the rules most people don't. Nothing he can do will change this perception. So he has only the debate to offer. In which he's going to have to defeat Obama in an obvious manner, though given his stances I don't see how but it's at least possible.

That said, I think the more likely outcome is Romney being too aggressive in the debates and doing something really dumb like trying to argue Obama should apologize for taking credit for killing OBL and not crediting Seal Team 6. In which case, everyone but the base will look at him like he's an asshole.

An appropriate response from Obama would be something like..."I've thanked them before in the announcement and every speech I've given on the issue and thank them once again tonight for their heroic service. I won't apologize however that you can't be bothered to view things objectively instead of in a hyper partisan fashion or keep an accurate record of the things I say. And for the record, of the two of us you're the one who refused to say a single word about our men and women serving and risking their lives as we speak in the most important speech you've ever given at your convention. And governor, for the record, mentioning military budgets isn't the same as mentioning our men and women in uniform, budgetary documents aren't people, budget documents don't fight for our freedoms or pay the ultimate price for their country."

(attack from a defensive position)

Edit: actually it would work better if that whole last part starting "and governor" isn't said immediately. Romney will say "I did mention them, I said military in my speech" (his answer to fox news)

To whiixh Obama responds "actually you mentioned your military budget as compared to a misrepresented version of mine. And Governor, for the record...finish with what I said.

Essentially letting Romney walk into a "corporations are people my friend" moment with the troops.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

What kind of bombs?

It's pretty bad strategy to hold onto something like what you want to do as President until the debates. It will come off as desperation. People should know your message by now.

Actual reasonable policies that would attract independents I guess. Like someone mentioned here before, things that Obama can only agree with and not really attack. He's got the right wing vote anyway by now with all this red meat. Everyone in this thread seems convinced that there aren't many independents left that haven't decided, but there's still time before the election. Aren't there still enough people who aren't actually following the news very closely?

Edit: The video of Romney's mother talking about how Romney's father was on welfare for a few years that they showed on the Daily Show yesterday, is that old news?

 

[kehs]

I can't tell if you're being serious or joking

crocodile tears

 

[Plinko]

I love a pretty tame video from 1998 is the best oppo material the Romney campaign could come up with.

What's more worrisome to me is the speed in which this appeared and was being pushed hard on Fox News. It's scary how the GOP basically have an entire major media organization to shill for them at all times.

 

[gkryhewy]

And now we've got debate fanfic. Jesus.

 

[Puddles]

I put on Bill O. Monica Crowley claiming Obama's entire plan is to get as many people as possible on the gov't teet.

Do republicans actually believe this? It's so fucking stupid.

I have heard some version of this since I first became politically aware in the mid-90s under Clinton. I'm pretty sure it's been a conservative refrain since at least the time of Reagan. Wasn't he the one who came out with the welfare-queen ad?

It's always been ridiculous. Why would anyone want to reduce a nation to poverty and then be forced to take care of them with government services? Not only would it be more work, not only would it completely destroy that leader's legacy, but there would be no tax base to fund the services. Like most fear-based politics, it doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. Too bad the chain-email-reading red meat base doesn't tend to apply scrutiny to anything.

 

[Brinbe]

Nice... +6 for Bams in Wisconsin (51-45) and +4 in VA (49-45) and +1 in Colorado (48-47) courtesy CBS/NYT/Quinnipiac.

Those Wisconsin numbers have to be encouraging, considering how badly Romney needs to flip it, and Virginia looks to be going the way of PA now. Colorado has been polling pretty well for Romney lately (though this represents a flip of +6 towards Obama since the last poll). And while it's not a certainty, I wouldn't be surprised if Romney ended up flipping it along with Indiana/North Carolina and perhaps Nevada (though the latter hasn't been polled too much).

 

[The Librarian]

Another poll has Warren up by five points: http://www.wbur.org/2012/09/19/brown-warren-poll.

But according to PD, it was over last month, so these four polls showing Warren ahead don't matter.

 

[RoninChaos]

No problem. I use an old student e-mail account to get a 50% discount, so less than $8 a month doesn't really bother me too much.

They give student discounts?

 

[Souldriver]

But according to PD, it was over last month, so these four polls showing Warren ahead don't matter.

Stuff like this baffles me, and i see it all the time in this thread. If you know that PD is trolling and doesnt mean what he says, and we all do, why bother with calling him out on things as if to "change his mind"?

Are we so starved for an adversary, that we willingly play along with this charade?

 

[The Librarian]

Stuff like this baffles me, and i see it all the time in this thread. If you know that PD is trolling and doesnt mean what he says, and we all do, why bother with calling him out on things as if to "change his mind"?

Are we so starved for an adversary, that we willingly play along with this charade?

PD has gone so far off the deep end with his annoying schtick it's hard to tell when he's being serious and when he isn't. Besides, he wasn't the only one saying Warren was done around this time last month.

 

[Puddles]

Another poll has Warren up by five points: http://www.wbur.org/2012/09/19/brown-warren-poll.

But according to PD, it was over last month, so these four polls showing Warren ahead don't matter.

Has this poll been known to lean left in the past?

I desperately want to see Warren in the Senate, but I don't want to get my fragile hopes crushed.

 

[scorcho]

y'all laughing at PD now, but once Clinton comes back to win the 08 primaries you're going to shit yourself for doubting him.

 

[codhand]

Obama as Carter II

Damn I hope he is like Carter II, that album was fire.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Damn I hope he is like Carter II, that album was fire.

GAF-Hop takeover of Poli-GAF!

 

[codhand]

So will Hilary be like the Carter III? Cause that would be disappointing

 

[eznark]

It's football season so I have stopped having these discussions in favor of important ones but I thought Aaron would appreciate this.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/170318676.html

The latest poll Quinnipiac University, the New York Times and CBS shows that Republican Tommy G. Thompson and Democrat Tammy Baldwin are tied in the race for U.S. Senate in Wisconsin.

The poll has the two candidates at 47% each.

That represents a slide for Thompson, who led 50%-44% on Aug. 22 in the last poll.

The two were tied on an Aug. 8 poll at 47%.

On Tuesday, Thompson said during a tour of a factory on the Milwaukee’s northwest side that he would not be surprised if Baldwin gained on him because she’s spent more on TV advertising in recent weeks while he has to work at raising money after his four-way primary victory.

A poll by Marquette University Law School comes out later today.

The MULaw poll is the important one and if that doesn't show significant change then meh, but if it does I don't think I will ever stop laughing at the WI GOP.

 

[teruterubozu]

Listening to G. Beck. LOL@this latching onto the 1998 "redistribution" tape. What a weak-ass rebuttal. He's going on his Obama is a Marxist/Communist/Socialist/Jeramiah Wright tirade schtick right now. Quality talking point.

 

[Puddles]

Listening to G. Beck. LOL@this latching onto the 1998 "redistribution" tape. What a weak-ass rebuttal. He's going on his Obama is a Marxist/Communist/Socialist/Jeramiah Wright tirade schtick right now. Quality talking point.

It won't fly. People have seen a four years of outsourcing and job-slashing to boost profits, and they're probably in favor of a bit of redistribution at this point.

You can't shit on the middle and lower classes for too long without stoking socialist ideas.

 

[RustyNails]

this world is constantly changing and evolving.

So TA finally admitting global warming is real??

 

[ToxicAdam]

AGW theory assumes there is a stable 'norm' and we are accelerating the pace of recent change.
Which is why the charlatans try so hard to tie regionalized weather events to climate change (ie. loaded dice theory)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/sci_nat_enl_1092666337/img/laun.jpg

 

[sc0la]

I don't think TA has ever claimed anthropogenic climate change wasn't real. He would just prefer an approach of adapting to it rather than fighting it (which he sees as futile). You won't see TA go batshit crazy on climate change unless cap and trade comes back

Correct me if I am wrong, TA it's been a while.