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[speculawyer]

What about Mormons? Shouldn't they be given another category on there, or are they under Other or Christian?

My definition is "If you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior then you are a Christian" such that Catholics, protestants, and even Mormons are all Christians. There are so many big differences between the existing Christian branches as is that I don't think it is a big deal to add Mormons to the list even if they added some fan-fiction.

 

[watershed]

For some reason I just rememebered all the talk after the 2008 primary and Obama being elected President that we'd never see an all white, all male ticket again. Why did people think this exactly?

 

[ErasureAcer]

For some reason I just rememebered all the talk after the 2008 primary and Obama being elected President that we'd never see an all white, all male ticket again. Why did people think this exactly?

Overreaction. America's great at it.

 

[RDreamer]

For some reason I just rememebered all the talk after the 2008 primary and Obama being elected President that we'd never see an all white, all male ticket again. Why did people think this exactly?

Who the hell thought we'd never see it again? That's pretty ridiculous.

 

[Gotchaye]

For some reason I just rememebered all the talk after the 2008 primary and Obama being elected President that we'd never see an all white, all male ticket again. Why did people think this exactly?

I'm not going to defend "never", but it was coming from the same place as the idea that we won't see tickets with two people from the same state. VP picks are frequently designed to appeal to a particular demographic - to try to win the VP's state or to win over a faction of the party which wasn't very enthusiastic about the candidate. Just as it's seen as kinda wasteful to pick a VP that looks a lot like the candidate, regionally speaking, it's obviously only a matter of time before politics isn't so white/male dominated that it no longer makes sense to double down on the particular biographical characteristics of gender/ethnicity.

Note that Rubio was a real possibility for Romney's VP pick, and a large part of the Republicans' problems going forward are going to be due to their weakness among Hispanics. I think there's better than an even chance that the next Republican ticket has a Hispanic on it, and lots of people expect Hillary to be on the Democratic ticket. And after that there are going to be so many prominent Hispanics and women in politics that I imagine there will be at least one representative of one of those groups on most tickets going forward.

 

[Hitokage]

A lot of evangelicals believe they are basically a cult. The whole new prophet after Jesus thing is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

Some people believe they are bad because they don't follow Jesus in the way they do. Some people believe they are bad for being dishonest, manipulative, and more of a corporation than a church. More generally, they have been horribly late to the civil rights movement, pivotal in defeating the Equal Rights Amendment, and their spending on defeating gay rights is comparable to the money they spend on humanitarian aid.

 

[ErasureAcer]

^^^^^

It's illegal to have a VP and Pres. from the same state(although Bush-Cheney got away with this somehow by proclaiming Cheney was from Wyoming when he is really from Texas or so I read somewhere). There's no rule saying two white guys can't run together so I don't know what you're talking about.

Not Hitokage...dude above. Didn't want to waste my time quoting him.

 

[Gotchaye]

^^^^^

It's illegal to have a VP and Pres. from the same state. There's no rule saying two white guys can't run together so I don't know what you're talking about.

Fine, sorry. Same region, then. You don't double down with your selection if you can help it; you typically pick a VP to try to offset the candidate's weaknesses, and a lot of that has to do with biographical details. George W Bush got an old, experienced hand in Dick Cheney (like Obama with Biden). Romney picked a younger guy with Tea Party cred, just as McCain tried to excite the base of hardcore conservatives (and maybe tried to win over some Hillary supporters) with Palin.

(I understand that W was not that much younger than Cheney, but his public image was one of inexperience and perhaps unseriousness. And of course Cheney played a small role in making sure that Cheney got picked.)

Edit: I mean, that's the whole point of a VP pick. Nobody pays much attention to what the person would actually do as president, as long as they meet some minimum requirements. The VP is only very important until the election, and is only important for his or her ability to generate support that the candidate can't generate for himself. That means that a lot of it comes down to biography.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Fine, sorry. Same region, then. You don't double down with your selection if you can help it; you typically pick a VP to try to offset the candidate's weaknesses, and a lot of that has to do with biographical details. George W Bush got an old, experienced hand in Dick Cheney (like Obama with Biden). Romney picked a younger guy with Tea Party cred, just as McCain tried to excite the base of hardcore conservatives (and maybe tried to win over some Hillary supporters) with Palin.

(I understand that W was not that much younger than Cheney, but his public image was one of inexperience and perhaps unseriousness)

It doesn't seem like Democrats do this as often or overtly. Clinton-Gore were both young southerners. Obama and Biden are both from fairly liberal northern states (although there is an obvious age/experience difference). Kerry's choice of Edwards seemed to be more about winning disaffected Edwards supporters than winning Edwards' home state.

Gore-Lieberman is about the only example I can think of in recent history.

 

[Gotchaye]

It doesn't seem like Democrats do this as often or overtly. Clinton-Gore were both young southerners. Obama and Biden are both from fairly liberal northern states (although there is an obvious age/experience difference). Kerry's choice of Edwards seemed to be more about winning disaffected Edwards supporters than winning Edwards' home state.

Gore-Lieberman is about the only example I can think of in recent history.

Yes, I suppose that's too pat. The Democrats have some reason to double down on southerners to counter common stereotypes, depending on the swing state dynamics of the time. A huge part of the Edwards pick was his "populist appeal", and that's more or less code for "folksy/southern", but of course intra-party dynamics plays a role. (Edit - and note that primaries aren't immune to regional candidacies. Edwards was strongest in more southern states: green here is Edwards, and he was pretty much all in NC, SC, GA, and rural IA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R...4_Democratic_Party_Presidential_Primaries.png).

Edit: As for Obama/Biden, I think Illinois is pretty different from Delaware, regionally. I'm not talking just north/south here. And Obama is obviously identified as "black" first and everything else probably never.

 

[pigeon]

It doesn't seem like Democrats do this as often or overtly. Clinton-Gore were both young southerners. Obama and Biden are both from fairly liberal northern states (although there is an obvious age/experience difference). Kerry's choice of Edwards seemed to be more about winning disaffected Edwards supporters than winning Edwards' home state.

Gore-Lieberman is about the only example I can think of in recent history.

I think Gotchaeye is half right. VP picks are chosen to offset your weakness as a candidate, but that's often in the realm of policy (at least for Democrats). Clinton chose Gore because a Senator would provide foreign policy and Washington experience that a governor lacks; Obama similarly chose Biden for his foreign policy chops. (Clinton was criticized for choosing another Southerner, actually, because it went against the traditional wisdom. Similarly, this is one reason Romney is taking hits on foreign policy, because Ryan has no experience to bring.) Edwards is the classic Southerner pick for a Massachusetts liberal. But in general I don't think location is the controlling factor all that often.

 

[Forever]

And Obama is obviously identified as "black" first and everything else probably never.

I honestly don't think this is the case in the Midwest. I think he does particularly well there since he's one of them. It's not very common to get a president from the Midwest and they're not very fond of the Northeast.

This is a big part of why Romney will not win Ohio.

 

[Stinkles]

Sitting in Madrid airport, coming back from tour of Europe. People here think the Romney airplane thing is hilarious. Lots of people asked me about it. Oddly enough I half heartedly defended him because of the "stress" excuse and because I suddenly felt like a dumb American, but as a Spanish colleague pointed out, "Do you get really bad at science when you are stressed?"

 

[bananas]

^^^^^

It's illegal to have a VP and Pres. from the same state(although Bush-Cheney got away with this somehow by proclaiming Cheney was from Wyoming when he is really from Texas or so I read somewhere). There's no rule saying two white guys can't run together so I don't know what you're talking about.

Not Hitokage...dude above. Didn't want to waste my time quoting him.

No it's not. http://www.snopes.com/history/american/vicepresident.asp

It's illegal for electoral voters to vote for both candidates on a ticket (voting for the same ticket twice) if they are from the same state.

Electors from other states could vote for both candidates from the same state.

 

[norinrad]

Iran's State News service runs Onion article.

:lol

lol

 

[Forever]

These people would also vote for Hitler so i'm not surprised at all. f**k them

Are you an Iranian news service?

 

[Trurl]

I honestly don't think this is the case in the Midwest. I think he does particularly well there since he's one of them. It's not very common to get a president from the Midwest and they're not very fond of the Northeast.

Obama needs to get on record as a person who says "pop" instead of "soda" and this deal is sealed.

 

[norinrad]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162...ed-mental-well-being-mitts-biggest-challenge/

OH.

MY.

GOD.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ahe just threw him under the bus. Jesus Christ this is sooo good

 

[Gotchaye]

I think Gotchaeye is half right. VP picks are chosen to offset your weakness as a candidate, but that's often in the realm of policy (at least for Democrats) [...] But in general I don't think location is the controlling factor all that often.

I'm happy to back off the strong regional claim, but I stand by the claim that a big part of the calculus of offsetting weaknesses is about the quirks of particular groups of voters. Sometimes you're just trying to make your candidacy more appealing to everybody, but for the most part the VP pick is targeted at particular groups. This leads to regional considerations playing a substantial if not determinative role. And as non-white and non-male politicians gain prominence, it's increasingly going to be the case that a white male candidate will have the option of selecting a VP who has similar qualifications as other VP contenders with the added advantage of particular appeal to Hispanics or women (or the candidate will be non-white or female, in which case there's a lot of reason to pick a white male VP).

 

[Clevinger]

^love the Home Movies av

 

[pigeon]

I'm happy to back off the strong regional claim, but I stand by the claim that a big part of the calculus of offsetting weaknesses is about the quirks of particular groups of voters. Sometimes you're just trying to make your candidacy more appealing to everybody, but for the most part the VP pick is targeted at particular groups. This leads to regional considerations playing a substantial if not determinative role. And as non-white and non-male politicians gain prominence, it's increasingly going to be the case that a white male candidate will have the option of selecting a VP who has similar qualifications as other VP contenders with the added advantage of particular appeal to Hispanics or women (or the candidate will be non-white or female, in which case there's a lot of reason to pick a white male VP).

I more or less agree with this. I mean, that's why we were all worried about VP Marco Rubio, right?

...man, it really wasn't that long ago that I was genuinely worried about this election.

 

[Aaron Strife]

I more or less agree with this. I mean, that's why we were all worried about VP Marco Rubio, right?

...man, it really wasn't that long ago that I was genuinely worried about this election.

As easy as it is to make fun of PD for doubling down on his "Romney can still turn it around" denial, there was a time when Romney looked like a formidable opponent. He still had a moderate profile combined with a bad environment for Obama (2010 shellacking, HCR could have been overturned, economy wasn't doing much better) that persisted until Bin Laden died.

Now he's sunk, of course. Two years ago though I would have just been happy if Obama won a second term, forgetting the Senate and House.

 

[Gotchaye]

^love the Home Movies av

From the ep "Everybody's Entitled to my Opinion", natch.

 

[NullPointer]

Sitting in Madrid airport, coming back from tour of Europe. People here think the Romney airplane thing is hilarious. Lots of people asked me about it. Oddly enough I half heartedly defended him because of the "stress" excuse and because I suddenly felt like a dumb American, but as a Spanish colleague pointed out, "Do you get really bad at science when you are stressed?"

Touche.

 

[ErasureAcer]

No it's not. http://www.snopes.com/history/american/vicepresident.asp

It's illegal for electoral voters to vote for both candidates on a ticket (voting for the same ticket twice) if they are from the same state.

Electors from other states could vote for both candidates from the same state.

I stand corrected. It's stated(in your article and on the wiki for VP) that many people believe what I thought cuz the mass media obviously told them such lies. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[speculawyer]

That comment was odd, because they didn't ever really shit on Catholicism. Most of the time they were too busy trumping just how totally right they are and how everyone else ever is totally 100% wrong on everything (which I must say the huge egoism turned me the fuck off of Lutheranism). That comment was a really unique thing said in passing by one of the religion teachers. There was no attention to it at all. It was as though he said the sky was blue and things just continued on. I just sat in my chair not saying anything because no one else seemed to notice or mind. It was weird, but it was a one-off thing.

Lutherans in general are pretty mellow and generally don't take it very seriously. But I guess the people in the clergy . . . well, it is their job.

And as always point out, that is what can be so fucking scary about religion . . . people that take it really seriously and believe they have the "real truth". Those are the ones that fuck things up for everyone. Everyone has to admit somewhere in their head that they may be wrong. Even atheists. Statistically, most people ARE wrong (every religion is a minority).

 

[Zeus Molecules]

nm

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm rather shocked that nearly everything has gone Obama's way this year, outside of the average to bad jobs numbers - and yet even those haven't mattered much. Europe didn't explode, health care was upheld, Israel seemingly backed down (not that I expected them to attack, but I expected more general aggression on their part), etc.

Romney can still win, let's not kid ourselves; and I am not changing my bet. But there's no question he's in a ditch right now, almost entirely self made. And if he loses he'll go down as the absolute worse presidential candidate in what, 36 years? Out of all the republicans in the world to choose, republicans chose this guy. Granted I doubt Santorum or Gingrich would have positive favorable numbers right now either, but at least they'd be losing with some dignity; they could argue they fought the good fight, from a conservative perspective. Romney has run scared since the early summer, after coming out blazing following the end of the primaries; he never matched that opening salvo.

How do you fuck up with 8% unemployment, a slow recovery, and disillusioned democrats everywhere? Mitt Romney was warned about his ridiculous anti-immigration stances in 2007 and he doubled down. He was warned about his anti-women's rights stances, yet decided to go full blown crazy to win the nomination. In hindsight, given his money and status advantages I don't believe he had to do either of these things to win the nomination. Sure he had to disavow Romneycare, but ultimately the other two issues weren't the main issues for the GOP - the main issue was "who can beat Obama." Romney won that issue before the primaries started, yet threw it away in some weird attempt to win hearts as well as minds. It didn't work, now he's fucked...

Obama is truly the Claudius of our time. Not particularly impressive, not an inspiring leader (perhaps not a leader at all), apparently not loved by his wife...yet blessed with foolish enemies who are cast away by the gods

 

[Aaron Strife]

PD if you're still deluding yourself into thinking every Democrat is as disillusioned by Obama as you are (and from what I can tell, you were never too hot on him to begin with), you're never going to understand why he's winning. I won't deny that the Obama administration has made some missteps but there is immense positive energy on his side vs. the GOP's. There's a reason why early/absentee voting is through the roof in swing states, and why a vast majority of Obama voters consistently state they're voting for their candidate. Romney voters are just voting against Obama.

A lot of Obama's good fortune has to do with Romney simply being a terrible candidate, but I would not hesitate to say that Obama's one of the best politicians in the US alive (Bill might be better). Even if the GOP still has the House after these elections and Obama isn't able to get much more through, I think history is going to treat him very kindly and he'll leave office with high-60s approval ratings. Universal healthcare, turning the economy around (net job creator!), ending the wars, killing OBL, jumpstarting the auto/manufacturing industry, first president to support gay marriage...

 

[Diablos]

Obama is truly the Claudius of our time. Not particularly impressive, not an inspiring leader (perhaps not a leader at all), apparently not loved by his wife...yet blessed with foolish enemies who are cast away by the gods

The fuck are you on...

 

[Marvie_3]

The fuck are you on...

PD being PD

 

[StopMakingSense]

The fuck are you on...

This is pretty tame to some of the stuff he's pulled out tin the past couple days...

 

[Diablos]

I've been too busy to do my PD research. What can I say.

 

[Averon]

PD's attempt to psycho-analysis the Obamas is hilarious.

 

[PhoenixDark]

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about now, but months ago when the campaign first started. The democrat base was rather disillusioned and not enthused for the election. And then Obama threw them some bones (gay marriage, semi dream act, contraception fight, etc). It worked perfectly and distracted from the economy. And of course Romney fired up the rest of democrats by being such an extremist

 

[Loudninja]

Hahaha

 

[Aaron Strife]

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about now, but months ago when the campaign first started. The democrat base was rather disillusioned and not enthused for the election. And then Obama threw them some bones (gay marriage, semi dream act, contraception fight, etc). It worked perfectly and distracted from the economy. And of course Romney fired up the rest of democrats by being such an extremist

I'll admit the debt ceiling fight was a little rocky, but even then his approval ratings never dropped below 40% like Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush etc. Obama has always had a very high floor of support for a president.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

^^^^^

It's illegal to have a VP and Pres. from the same state(although Bush-Cheney got away with this somehow by proclaiming Cheney was from Wyoming when he is really from Texas or so I read somewhere). There's no rule saying two white guys can't run together so I don't know what you're talking about.

Not Hitokage...dude above. Didn't want to waste my time quoting him.

Why is it illegal?

 

[Zeus Molecules]

That cladius statement is something peggy Noonan would say...

 

[Diablos]

The debt ceiling fiasco was "rocky" to say the least. Yeah Obama fucked up a bit, but so did all parties involved.

The GOP holding the nation's economy hostage hadn't been witnessed like that before; could you have really expected anyone to have been fully prepared to deal with it? It's amazing there weren't criminal charges given that some people on capitol hill said they they wanted to actually cause economic harm to the US. It wasn't anything to interpret or spew your biased opinions on, they outright admitted they had real intent to do serious harm to the US economy. Economic terrorism, like Biden said. Really. There should have been some severe consequences for those actions, any American left/right/center/indifferent ought to be downright terrified that we have people that extreme in Congress.

 

[ErasureAcer]

Why is it illegal?

Apparently it's not...but somewhere a long the way the mass media was saying that and thus a lot of people are walking around thinking that til this day.

 

[Aaron Strife]

The debt ceiling fiasco was "rocky" to say the least. Yeah Obama fucked up a bit, but so did all parties involved.

The GOP holding the nation's economy hostage hasn't been seen quite like that before; could you have really expected anyone to have been fully prepared to deal with it? It's amazing there weren't criminal charges given some people on capitol hill said outright they they wanted to actually cause economic harm to the US. It wasn't anything to interpret or spew your biased opinions on, they outright admitted they had real intent to do serious harm to the US economy. Economic terrorism, like Biden said. Really. There should have been some legit consequences for those actions.

Yeah, he really had his hands tied on that one. I almost wonder whether his re-election odds would be better or worse if he had gotten his grand bargain in the end. I'm positive he'll try and get something done next year.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Apparently it's not...but somewhere a long the way the mass media was saying that and thus a lot of people are walking around thinking that til this day.

Thanks. I thought it would be ridiculous if it was illegal.

 

[Black Mamba]

I'm rather shocked that nearly everything has gone Obama's way this year, outside of the average to bad jobs numbers - and yet even those haven't mattered much. Europe didn't explode, health care was upheld, Israel seemingly backed down (not that I expected them to attack, but I expected more general aggression on their part), etc.

Romney can still win, let's not kid ourselves; and I am not changing my bet. But there's no question he's in a ditch right now, almost entirely self made. And if he loses he'll go down as the absolute worse presidential candidate in what, 36 years? Out of all the republicans in the world to choose, republicans chose this guy. Granted I doubt Santorum or Gingrich would have positive favorable numbers right now either, but at least they'd be losing with some dignity; they could argue they fought the good fight, from a conservative perspective. Romney has run scared since the early summer, after coming out blazing following the end of the primaries; he never matched that opening salvo.

How do you fuck up with 8% unemployment, a slow recovery, and disillusioned democrats everywhere? Mitt Romney was warned about his ridiculous anti-immigration stances in 2007 and he doubled down. He was warned about his anti-women's rights stances, yet decided to go full blown crazy to win the nomination. In hindsight, given his money and status advantages I don't believe he had to do either of these things to win the nomination. Sure he had to disavow Romneycare, but ultimately the other two issues weren't the main issues for the GOP - the main issue was "who can beat Obama." Romney won that issue before the primaries started, yet threw it away in some weird attempt to win hearts as well as minds. It didn't work, now he's fucked...

Obama is truly the Claudius of our time. Not particularly impressive, not an inspiring leader (perhaps not a leader at all), apparently not loved by his wife...yet blessed with foolish enemies who are cast away by the gods

At the end of the day, the problem isn't Romney. The problem is the GOP itself. Their decisions were spiteful, their ideas are outdated and often proven incorrect, and they don't have many ideas outside of social issues to begin with. And at least 50% of the voters have figured it out.

 

[Diablos]

I want to see the GOP split, I really really do. It could happen. You gotta believe.

Just think... election 2016 could be fought between DEM/GOP/TEA. Huahuahuahua.

 

[Black Mamba]

Let me put it this way. By all accounts, the current Republican Party has this as their national agenda:

1. Make abortion illegal in all cases, including the health of the mother, rape, and incest

2. No Gay Marriage or even Civil Unions

3. Increase Military Spending

4. Privatize Medicare and SS in the near future

5. Do nothing about healthcare (assuming there is no Obamacare)

6. Cut taxes again, especially for the wealthy (as well as eliminate corporate tax)

7. Build a wall on the Mexican border, deport every illegal immigrant you can find

8. Eliminate the EPA, ignore global warming

9. Drill baby drill

10. Ending Planned Parenthood completely including non-abortion stuff for women


Now, with the exception of possibly number 9, is there a single issue on there that 50%+ support? These are some of their biggest issues right now.

Like I said, it's a part of outdated ideas and dying ideals. This is why they will lose. This election will not be about Obama, it will be about a wholesale rejection of the Republican Party as a Party.

 

[The Librarian]

I'm rather shocked that nearly everything has gone Obama's way this year, outside of the average to bad jobs numbers - and yet even those haven't mattered much. Europe didn't explode, health care was upheld, Israel seemingly backed down (not that I expected them to attack, but I expected more general aggression on their part), etc.

Romney can still win, let's not kid ourselves; and I am not changing my bet. But there's no question he's in a ditch right now, almost entirely self made. And if he loses he'll go down as the absolute worse presidential candidate in what, 36 years? Out of all the republicans in the world to choose, republicans chose this guy. Granted I doubt Santorum or Gingrich would have positive favorable numbers right now either, but at least they'd be losing with some dignity; they could argue they fought the good fight, from a conservative perspective. Romney has run scared since the early summer, after coming out blazing following the end of the primaries; he never matched that opening salvo.

How do you fuck up with 8% unemployment, a slow recovery, and disillusioned democrats everywhere? Mitt Romney was warned about his ridiculous anti-immigration stances in 2007 and he doubled down. He was warned about his anti-women's rights stances, yet decided to go full blown crazy to win the nomination. In hindsight, given his money and status advantages I don't believe he had to do either of these things to win the nomination. Sure he had to disavow Romneycare, but ultimately the other two issues weren't the main issues for the GOP - the main issue was "who can beat Obama." Romney won that issue before the primaries started, yet threw it away in some weird attempt to win hearts as well as minds. It didn't work, now he's fucked...

Obama is truly the Claudius of our time. Not particularly impressive, not an inspiring leader (perhaps not a leader at all), apparently not loved by his wife...yet blessed with foolish enemies who are cast away by the gods

You keep making these insane statements about Obama's psychological state of mind and his relationship with family members.

...

Are you jealous of Obama?

 

[War Peaceman]

I keep banging the drum, but I feel that the GOP will have to embrace a certain element of welfarism. The programs are generally too popular with the electorate for opposition to them to be electorally effective.

What I would suggest could happen - if the libertarian wing don't seize the party - is an attempt to tie these welfare programs to a more patriotic, national rejuvenation program.

They tie their own support for these programs with the intent of renewing the USA in the face of the BRICs and other powers. This then ties in close with their more aggressive international foreign policy and support for higher defence spending. I'd imagine it to be a modern form of the National Efficiency/rationalisation movements.

 

[TacticalFox88]

With some of the shit you post, PD, I'm surprised Hitokage hasn't banned you, yet.

 

[AniHawk]

i went to 270towin and thought okay. who made co a swing state.

flipped that, iowa, wisconsin, and ohio

and realized obama was already over 270 by 10. i didn't even realize that had just happened until it happened. hell, without ohio, he could still win as long as he had nevada and new hampshire.

it just hit me how the electoral map looks.