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[Dr. Pangloss]

In honor of ToxicAdam, here's a graph on how the dreaded fiscal cliff would affect everybody's tax bill:

While I agree in a fundamental sense, I think that this is the wrong time for Obama to take that question on. Next year he can bring Senator Warren on stage to make the case with him.

Going off this PDF: http://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43373-06-11-HouseholdIncomeandFedTaxes.pdf this is how much percentage of income those tax increases are in 2009 dollars:

Bottom 20% - 1.75%
Second 20% - 2.84%
Third 20% - 3.09%
Fourth 20% - 3.77%
80-90% : 4.83%
90-95% : 4.70%
95-99% : 5.47%
99-99.9% : 9.88%

Pretty progressive hit. But add that with the payroll tax coming back to 6.2%, then your looking at 60% of the population losing 5% of their income to taxes. That's not good at all.

 

[codhand]

It's neither good nor bad.

It's an essential animal trait

Ook

 

[thefro]

Sheeit last election once Indiana went Blue I started telling my friends "It's all over! colbert.gif" They're dumbfounded like "huh? What about Ohio & Florida." I'm all like "nah sons, game over, goodnight, thanks for playing, you can vote however you like, heeeeyyy, I told you to chill the fuck out he got this" etc.

Obama was already giving his victory speech before Indiana got called (I'm from Indiana). Was working the election as a voting machine tech and remember telling the other Democrat that "wow, he's probably going to win Indiana too if he's tied with that much of Gary left". And that was after President Obama was speaking.

Certainly it was a good sign off the bat that Indiana was too close to call.

 

[Fenderputty]

What is this proposed 20% tax cut across the board that Ryan is talking about? Is there any actual attempt at an explanation as to how it's "revenue neutral" and wouldn't bankrupt the government?

He'll close loopholes, but won't discuss which ones. Also, the millions of jobs created by further reducing taxes on the "creators"

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

There is nothing wrong with greed of an individual.

It's when that greed and self interest affects public policy where it becomes an issue.

Then attack the policy and not the individual. You can also highlight how it helps the individual. You don't need to be bombastic about it.

 

[speculawyer]

I know Diablos is a good guy and poster, but do we really need to tell Corbett to eat shit? Does Dax or Speculawyer need to make a post that just says, "Fuck Romney or Paul Ryan?" Maybe you guys are just passionate people, but I don't think Romney is a bad man personally. He's just a normal person. He's not some monster. He's as greedy as the next guy. I think sinking to the point where we attack the man and not the policy is wrong.

Do my posts come off that harsh? I don't think Mitt is a bad person at all. I think he is a very hard-working family-man. However, I do think that he has a bit of an empathy blind-spot. And that has worked wonders for his career. And I do think he is more greedy than the next guy. However, as president, you have to be president of EVERYONE. And everyone is just not going to be Mr. super-clean, work super-hard.

But on the flip-side, I don't think people should be coddled. In fact I have some views on welfare that Ryan would probably like but that would horrify the liberal Democratic base. I'd like work-camps for the chronically unemployed. I'd like food-stamps/welfare to mandate proof of birth-control use of some sort. We really can't build a massive welfare state. I don't want to see people starve . . . but I don't want to see anyone just being lazy and collecting benefits. And I don't want to see people collecting benefits having more kids.

 

[adamsappel]

Wasn't Karl Rove feeding him the answers?

Allegedly - he had a receiver in his ear or something.

From what I've read, the "mysterious bulge" under Bush's jacket wasn't a radio transmitter, but a LifeVest portable defibrillator. You can see the same bulge under Bush's clothes in other photos. Apparently, the "choking on a pretzel" incident wasn't as mild as has been reported, or if that was even the cause. It doesn't make sense to have to wear some kind of bulky device to hear something in a tiny earpiece. You could have something in your pocket for that.

 

[Black Mamba]

What is this proposed 20% tax cut across the board that Ryan is talking about? Is there any actual attempt at an explanation as to how it's "revenue neutral" and wouldn't bankrupt the government?

The Romney-Ryan plan is to cut all marginal rates by 20%. They will then follow that up by cutting deductions at the top end of income earners to pay for these cuts, though they refuse to state which ones.

Of course, doing this only can possibly pay for itself (be revenue neutral) in the long run with pure fucking magic. Otherwise, he'd have to reduce deductions for regular folks as well and raise their taxes.

Either Romney-Ryan is raising middle class taxes are ballooning the deficit with their plan. No ways aroudn it.


Basically, a couple studies claim it might be possible if they cut all deductions for those making $100k+ AND there is the absolute best case scenario which has never happened in human history from an economic perspective alongside it.

 

[codhand]

Certainly it was a good sign off the bat that Indiana was too close to call.

I recall it going "probable dem" or maybe as you say "too close to call", before Ohio or Florida or any of the big ones, I certainly remember knowing Indiana was likely dem during evening hours, well before Obama's really late at night Chicago speech. But either way Indiana was the death knell....

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Biden Biden...your heart is in the right place but gotta watch your mouth.

"This is deadly earnest, man. This is deadly earnest. How they can justify -- how they can justify -- raising taxes when the middle class has been buried the last four years... How in Lord's name?"

 

[polyh3dron]

And what was wrong with that Biden quote?

 

[Brinbe]

Liking those latest numbers in VA/NV/NH for Bams. Good day of polling after all that "tightening".

 

[789shadow]

As if anything Biden says is really important.

 

[eBay Huckster]

And what was wrong with that Biden quote?

It's too earnest!

 

[XenodudeX]

1 more day till the Romeny comeback. Can you guys feel it?

 

[CharlieDigital]

Then attack the policy and not the individual. You can also highlight how it helps the individual. You don't need to be bombastic about it.

PoliGAF has done both and in this case, because of the individual and his policies and how he stands to benefit heavily from his policy positions, you cannot easily separate the two.

This is of course not to mention the flat out lies that are being told by his campaign with his explicit or implicit approval.

Ook

Greed is "want" and it is natural to want things.

It's why we go to school, why we work, and why we're not all Buddhist monks.

It drives our economy. It drives innovation. You want that big screen LCD. You want that iPhone or Android phone or maybe even a Windows Phone. The companies want your money so they make better products; they create new products. Greed is a strong driver.

 

[Tim-E]

1 more day till the Romeny comeback. Can you guys feel it?

It'll be in full swing tomorrow morning when the whitey tape is all over the news!

 

[PhoenixDark]

Going off this PDF: http://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43373-06-11-HouseholdIncomeandFedTaxes.pdf this is how much percentage of income those tax increases are in 2009 dollars:

Bottom 20% - 1.75%
Second 20% - 2.84%
Third 20% - 3.09%
Fourth 20% - 3.77%
80-90% : 4.83%
90-95% : 4.70%
95-99% : 5.47%
99-99.9% : 9.88%

Pretty progressive hit. But add that with the payroll tax coming back to 6.2%, then your looking at 60% of the population losing 5% of their income to taxes. That's not good at all.

I'd be fine with that, but the payroll tax increase alongside it would be a problem. Hopefully they pass a three month extension for the Bush tax cuts to allow the next congress to deal with it. If not, Obama should let all the Bush tax cuts expire and revisit them next year

 

[codhand]

Greed is "want" and it is natural to want things.

It's why we go to school, why we work, and why we're not all Buddhist monks.

It drives our economy. It drives innovation. You want that big screen LCD. You want that iPhone or Android phone or maybe even a Windows Phone. The companies want your money so they make better products; they create new products. Greed is a strong driver.

Now I remember.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41494244&postcount=250

"Making boatloads of money"

greed is good, just say it,

Greed is not the same thing as want, gimme a break. We agree on most big issues so it's really nothing, but you harbor something not so deep beneath the surface, that you won't state explicitly.

 

[Mac_Lane]

At what time will the debate take place tomorrow night ?

I'd like to watch it, but I'll probably to have a sleepless night, given the time-lag (I'm a French student in Helsinki).

 

[Dude Abides]

And what was wrong with that Biden quote?

Saying the middle class has been buried the last 4 years - i.e. during Obama's term.

 

[Tim-E]

At what time will the debate take place tomorrow night ?

I'd like to watch it, but I'll probably to have a sleepless night, given the time-lag (I'm a French student in Helsinki).

9 PM EST, not sure of the time there.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Now i remember.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41494244&postcount=250

"Making boatloads of money"

greed is good, just say it,

Like I said, it's neither good nor bad.

Would you say that Bill Gates was greedy in how he ran Microsoft and how they created a virtual monopoly through strong-arm tactics with vendors and other strategic moves to quash the competition?

But Bill Gates has also donated millions of dollars to charity and set aside billions for future charitable work. He has put his whole life and energy into making the world a better place for millions of the poorest folk on the planet.

Is Bill "greedy"? Was his greed bad?

 

[Mac_Lane]

9 PM EST, not sure of the time there.

I think I have 7 hours to add to that, so that should make it 4:00 a.m. Gonna be fun

 

[codhand]

Like I said, it's neither good nor bad.

Would you say that Bill Gates was greedy in how he ran Microsoft and how they created a virtual monopoly through strong-arm tactics with vendors and other strategic moves to quash the competition?

But Bill Gates has also donated millions of dollars to charity and set aside billions for future charitable work. He has put his whole life and energy into making the world a better place for millions of the poorest folk on the planet.

Is Bill "greedy"? Was his greed bad?

I just think you have an obsession with defending capitalism and justifying pursuit of excessive wealth.

I also think you told us we were calling the race for Obama too soon, is it still too soon?

Also, also, you said occupy had no effect, well I could make the case that the 47% video is an extension of that movement and thus the video was given additional gravitas as a result of that movement.

 

[RustyNails]

At what time will the debate take place tomorrow night ?

I'd like to watch it, but I'll probably to have a sleepless night, given the time-lag (I'm a French student in Helsinki).

It's 7pm ET...not sure what that translates to in Helsinki.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

Can someone explain this "whitey" tape to me and if is so hurtful to the Obama campaign, why it never surfaced 4 years ago?

 

[pigeon]

Then you're not the average guy. Answer this question for me: How greedy do you think Romney compares to the average individual? If a random person was picked off the street and you do not know anything about his moral fiber, then how would he react if put in similar situations like Romney? I can tell you from working as a tax accountant for a couple years that people are greedy and would hide their money just like Romney does. And I agree with you that the Presidency needs someone of a higher caliber than Romney or the average man.

Serious question, no offense intended: as a tax accountant, I assume you mostly worked with people who made above a certain level of income? Certainly enough to pay federal income tax (which, as we've had established a couple of times this election season, puts you above 47% of America). And we can probably safely assume that these people made a cost/benefit analysis that it would save them money to hire a professional accountant, or that their income structures were such that it would actually be necessary for them to get a professional to do it correctly.

Do you really think this group of people is perfectly representative of Americans? And I say this knowing that my dad hasn't done his own taxes in a decade or two. If my assumptions are wrong, then I apologize in advance.

I'm iffy on some of the stuff -- the Caymans, the carried interest loophole, even the leveraged buyouts. You could be right about those. But I don't think the average American would've created an obfuscated relationship with Bain in 2002 so that he could go work for the Olympics and still draw a salary and control investments, especially when they already had a lot of money. I don't think they would've forced their company to the edge of bankruptcy by paying out bonuses in order to get the FDIC to forgive a debt they rightfully owed. I don't think the average American would've played the tax evasion games that Romney's been playing while planning to run for President -- that deserves special consideration when we're talking about greed.

And, frankly, I think the average American, faced with a $20 million yearly income, wouldn't worry so much about taxes. That's probably why the average American doesn't have a $20 million yearly income -- because, frankly, you probably have to be pretty greedy to get that much, when so many people in America would be happy just to have enough.

Maybe I'm too optimistic. But I think people think less of the average person than they really deserve.

 

[Synth_floyd]

It's interesting that Obama is leading in NV since it has a high Morman population.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

I would equate greed with something beyond want. Basically there are things you need: food, shelter, clothing, etc. Then there are things you want: car, games, television, etc. Greed is when you already have something, but you have an irrational desire to possess more of it, even to the detriment of others. Maybe this is my Catholic upbringing talking but the best example of greed to me is the other deadly sin: gluttony. You've already had enough to eat, but you have a desire to consume more.

 

[Dude Abides]

Like I said, it's neither good nor bad.

Would you say that Bill Gates was greedy in how he ran Microsoft and how they created a virtual monopoly through strong-arm tactics with vendors and other strategic moves to quash the competition?

But Bill Gates has also donated millions of dollars to charity and set aside billions for future charitable work. He has put his whole life and energy into making the world a better place for millions of the poorest folk on the planet.

Is Bill "greedy"? Was his greed bad?

What is the point of this example? Altruism is not greed, it's the opposite.

 

[Grakl]

9 PM EST, not sure of the time there.

Ugh, that's the worst possible time for me.

 

[pigeon]

I would equate greed with something beyond want. Basically there are things you need: food, shelter, clothing, etc. Then there are things you want: car, games, television, etc. Greed is when you already have something, but you have an irrational desire to possess more of it, even to the detriment of others. Maybe this is my Catholic upbringing talking but the best example of greed to me is the other deadly sin: gluttony. You've already had enough to eat, but you have a desire to consume more.

I agree with this (probably also because of my Catholic upbringing), although I think I'd extend reasonable desire as opposed to greed to include a solid chunk of things you just want, because man does not live etc. I don't think it's greedy to want some nice things. I think it's a little greedy to want only nice things.

 

[Dude Abides]

It's interesting that Obama is leading in NV since it has a high Morman population.

Not that high - 5.6% per gallup.

http://pollingmatters.gallup.com/2012/02/mormon-vote-in-nevadas-gop-caucuses.html

 

[RustyNails]

9 PM EST, not sure of the time there.

What, has CNN been lying to me all this time? Damn you Wolf

 

[ryutaro's mama]

It's a video of Michelle Obama talking about how awful "whitey" is. They tried to cover it up by murdering Breitbart, but now all their chickens are coming home to roost.

Wait, this is a thing? Like people believe this happened?

 

[Synth_floyd]

Not that high - 5.6% per gallup.

http://pollingmatters.gallup.com/2012/02/mormon-vote-in-nevadas-gop-caucuses.html

Wow, I thought it was much higher.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I just think you have an obsession with defending capitalism and justifying pursuit of excessive wealth.

I mean, that is -- more or less -- the American Dream, distilled. Anyone can make it here as long as they work hard, apply themselves, and get a lucky break or two.

I also think you told us we were calling the race for Obama too soon, is it still too soon?

I think so. I'm actually quite nervous about the debates and that somehow, Romney actually swings a comeback. Almost to the point where I can't watch them (haven't decided).

Also, also, you said occupy had no effect, well I could make the case that the 47% video is an extension of that movement and thus the video was given additional gravitas as a result of that movement.

That is a reach. The 47% comment is about the 47% of Americans who pay no federal income tax, which Romney personally finds issue with (and I guess so did his supporters). The outrage is that, as President of the United States, he is supposed to be the leader of all Americans and care about the well-being of all Americans. His 47% comment was a direct affront to what we would consider "presidential" or fitting of someone who would sign policies into law that would affect 100% of Americans. He disparages a whole group of people -- including veterans, elderly, poor working class -- as more or less lazy people who don't want to work.

But this is a far cry from the aimless OWS movement and the 99% BS.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Now...we may not see it today.

@DRUDGE: Internal debate at news network about airing tape tonight, on eve of debate... MORE

 

[B-Dubs]

Wait, this is a thing? Like people believe this happened?

Yup. Not much else to say about it, I just sigh and shake my head.

 

[Dr. Pangloss]

Serious question, no offense intended: as a tax accountant, I assume you mostly worked with people who made above a certain level of income? Certainly enough to pay federal income tax (which, as we've had established a couple of times this election season, puts you above 47% of America). And we can probably safely assume that these people made a cost/benefit analysis that it would save them money to hire a professional accountant, or that their income structures were such that it would actually be necessary for them to get a professional to do it correctly.

Do you really think this group of people is perfectly representative of Americans? And I say this knowing that my dad hasn't done his own taxes in a decade or two. If my assumptions are wrong, then I apologize in advance.

I'm iffy on some of the stuff -- the Caymans, the carried interest loophole, even the leveraged buyouts. You could be right about those. But I don't think the average American would've created an obfuscated relationship with Bain in 2002 so that he could go work for the Olympics and still draw a salary and control investments, especially when they already had a lot of money. I don't think they would've forced their company to the edge of bankruptcy by paying out bonuses in order to get the FDIC to forgive a debt they rightfully owed. I don't think the average American would've played the tax evasion games that Romney's been playing while planning to run for President -- that deserves special consideration when we're talking about greed.

And, frankly, I think the average American, faced with a $20 million yearly income, wouldn't worry so much about taxes. That's probably why the average American doesn't have a $20 million yearly income -- because, frankly, you probably have to be pretty greedy to get that much, when so many people in America would be happy just to have enough.

Maybe I'm too optimistic. But I think people think less of the average person than they really deserve.

I was actually in a small mom and pop accounting office, but we did have our share of millionaires. Basically we did tax work for firefighters to oilmen. My boss always use to say that if you are paying the top rate, then you are doing it wrong. I don't want it to seem like I am moving the goal posts, but as you pointed out Romney is not the average guy. He went to top tier institutions. He made much more in a year than what an average American will make in a lifetime. But if we consider his actions related to his peers, then they are not out of the ordinary. He's just like the average person in the one percent. I guess you could say that to get to the one percent that you must be greedier than the average American.

 

[B-Dubs]

Now...we may not see it today.

They probably realized that it makes Obama look good or something, or are trying to figure out how to edit it to make him look bad, or maybe (somehow) it makes Romney look really bad.

 

[XenodudeX]

Greed is "want" and it is natural to want things.

People who think "greed" and "want" are one in the same are fools of the highest degree.

 

[Byakuya769]

They probably realized that it makes Obama look good or something, or are trying to figure out how to edit it to make him look bad, or maybe (somehow) it makes Romney look really bad.

Bingo.

 

[codhand]

I mean, that is -- more or less -- the American Dream, distilled.

I thought it was 2.5 kids and a home with a white picket fence.

That is a reach. His 47% comment was a direct affront to what we would consider "presidential" or fitting of someone who would sign policies into law that would affect 100% of Americans. But this is a far cry from the aimless OWS movement and the 99% BS.

It might be a reach but I found this:
http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/its-free-...47-percent-gives-fading-ows-birthday-present/

Who would have thought that Mitt Romney would give Occupy Wall Street a birthday present? On the day that protesters from the 99 percent took to the streets to mark the anniversary of the encampment at Zuccotti Park, the GOP Presidential hopeful introduced a new number into public circulation: the 47 percent of Americans he claims pay no income taxes, rely on the government and will support President Obama.

Such a comment puts Romney not only in the 1 percent that OWS has been targeting; but in an elite, exclusive top 1 percent of 1 percent of most unfortunate political comments caught on video. Furthermore, it reminds voters just how disdainful of and distant from regular working Americans Governor Romney is. A screenwriter could not have created a candidate that better embodies the 1 percent: The greed, recklessness and obliviousness that has increased wealth disparity and shaken the American economy.

The fact that that theme is part of this election's story owes some debt to the Occupiers who took over a park last year and the tens of thousands of Americans who joined them in solidarity marches, actions and encampments across the country. Our national conversation had been focused on deficits, belt-tightening and austerity - a political landscape that would have been perfect for Romney's partner-in-crime Paul Ryan.

 

[The Librarian]

Obama's national margin among Latinos – 70 - 26: https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/253224302722289664

lol Mittens

 

[ryutaro's mama]

The funniest thing about this Obama fear that his detractors have is based around the fact that his sinister, evil plan is always "just around the corner."

4 years ago, he was going to immediately implement his master plan of rounding up his opposition and collecting all their guns.

Now, if he gets re-elected, the story will be that he was obviously saving his TRUE intentions for his second term.

And when that comes and goes, it will be that he didn't have a enough time and his successor will take up the mantle.

Obama is a terrible mastermind of evil--he can never seem to actually execute on his motives.

 

[789shadow]

Obama's national margin among Latinos – 70 - 26: https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/st...24302722289664

lol Mittens

The spray tan. IT DOES NOTHING.

 

[Suikoguy]

Obama's national margin among Latinos – 70 - 26: https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/253224302722289664

lol Mittens

I'm waiting for the backfire from republicans on the recent move.
Not only does it mean agreeing with Obama on something, it's also fairly clearly against the GOP platform.

 

[CharlieDigital]

People who think "greed" and "want" are one in the same are fools of the highest degree.

Do note that I put it in quotes.

They are obviously not the same thing, but they are along the same axis.

Greed is not the inherently bad. It's what you do with what you've accumulated that determines whether greed is good or bad.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Jim Senegal are perfect examples.

I thought it was 2.5 kids and a home with a white picket fence.

As a first generation immigrant, that's not my version of the American Dream

It might be a reach but I found this:
http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/its-free-...47-percent-gives-fading-ows-birthday-present/

It's a blog piece; I still view any relation between the two a reach. They are fundamentally two different topics, IMO.