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[RDreamer]

Our health care system is totally broken. We need to provide care per patient rather than per procedure, but that creates the problem of quantity of care by DR.'s over quality of care. Add to that prescription drugs whose goal is to not actually cure you, and you have a one huge mess.

I'm not saying this stuff isn't problems at all. I realize they're huge problems. I'm just wondering if a portion of the Imminent Fiscal Doom™ from healthcare is from the fact that we simply will have too many people getting care and not enough paying for that care. And eventually that balloon will shrink, and we'll be left with more even numbers of people paying into things like medicare and taking out of it.

You're assuming they will die off at the same rates & times that previous generations did.

Not really. I'm just assuming that they'll die off eventually, and we'll be left with a much more even population distribution.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Not really. I'm just assuming that they'll die off eventually, and we'll be left with a much more even population distribution.

That's all well and good, but there are still going to be a substantial amount of boomers left when Gen X starts retiring as well.

 

[Chichikov]

I'd support means testing Medicare for those who make more. The argument that this would weaken the public's opinion on Medicare (as has happened with Medicaid) doesn't make sense to me. I don't support raising the eligibility age though, and would rather lower it.

I don't like means testing.
You have to creates all those rules, a bureaucracy to enforce them, make your citizens comply with them and for what?
Something that is economically equivalent to taxing the rich a bit more and will achieve very little outside making Medicare more politically vulnerable and less financially sound (the bigger the insured based, the healthier the system).

It's only point of any of this is to make the program look like a charity or a handout.

 

[empty vessel]

I'd support means testing Medicare for those who make more. The argument that this would weaken the public's opinion on Medicare (as has happened with Medicaid) doesn't make sense to me. I don't support raising the eligibility age though, and would rather lower it.

Why would you support means testing? There isn't any reason to do so.

I wonder though, do we really have a long term problem, or is it more that we have a large balloon of baby boomers all needing healthcare at the same time that will settle and flatten a bit more once they all die off. I mean relatively speaking of course.

The problem with increasing Medicare spending is not in Medicare itself; it is in the private health care provision industry and it affects all people in or out of Medicare. The solution is to better leverage the government's buying power by expanding the program to cover more people. This will bring down prices for everybody, including the government.

Sounds good to me. Slash that defense budget, get out of Afghanistan, make some entitlement cuts and we will have a good lean budget.

You sound like a Republican.

 

[Frank the Great]

You sound like a Republican.

He sounds like a Democrat to me.

 

[RDreamer]

The problem with increasing Medicare spending is not in Medicare itself; it is in the private health care provision industry and it affects all people in or out of Medicare. The solution is to better leverage the government's buying power by expanding the program to cover more people. This will bring down prices for everybody, including the government.

I think you misunderstand me, or what I was postulating on there. I realize this is the easy solution. I was just kind of musing on how much of the problems with the current (shitty) solution was due to the large bubble of baby boomers. Part of the reason prices are going up is because it's a captive market, and the insurance side really doesn't have much incentive to pass on savings to the end user. With more leverage this piece is solved. I was just wondering if the other part of the equation, the fact that we have more people needing healthcare was weighing down the system simply from baby boomers, and if that end of the equation would balance itself out later anyway. So, in the end the long term actual problem is indeed the first part, and less the 2nd part.

He sounds like a Democrat to me.

Moderate republican or mainstream blue dog type democrat. Nowadays unfortunately probably just a regular democrat...

 

[empty vessel]

He sounds like a Democrat to me.

Touche.

I think you misunderstand me, or what I was postulating on there. I realize this is the easy solution. I was just kind of musing on how much of the problems with the current (shitty) solution was due to the large bubble of baby boomers. Part of the reason prices are going up is because it's a captive market, and the insurance side really doesn't have much incentive to pass on savings to the end user. With more leverage this piece is solved. I was just wondering if the other part of the equation, the fact that we have more people needing healthcare was weighing down the system simply from baby boomers, and if that end of the equation would balance itself out later anyway. So, in the end the long term actual problem is indeed the first part, and less the 2nd part.

It would be a good guess that an aged population makes the overall cost of health care per capita rise. But see other Western nations that also experienced post-war baby booms at the same time as the US. There is something that makes the US an outlier notwithstanding having an aged population.

 

[Forever]

He sounds like a Democrat to me.

Democrats are the best. <3

 

[RDreamer]

It would be a good guess that an aged population makes the overall cost of health care per capita rise. But see other Western nations that also experienced post-war baby booms at the same time as the US. There is something that makes the US an outlier notwithstanding having an aged population.

Right, that's the leverage that our government healthcare doesn't have that does that... And probably partially our shitty eating habits.... And the fact that lack of universal healthcare means we don't get enough preventative care...

Democrats are the best. <3

Not the kind that gleefully throw poor people under the bus for no real reason.

I'm a realist and will applaud when we accomplish things even when they're not ideal, but I still think we should be truthful when things aren't ideal or are even shitty, such as, again, throwing poor and old people under the bus (or just fucking up the economy) in the name of balancing a budget that doesn't need to be right now.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

I really hope Boehner's account is true, because it makes Obama look a bit better to me.

 

[Leunam]

We just got an e-mail at work saying we will be seeing a 2% reduction in take home pay due to the payroll tax holiday expiring. I don't honestly know much about this and was wondering if anyone could summarize it or provide an article about it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I really hope Boehner's account is true, because it makes Obama look a bit better to me.

Meh. Makes him look like a giant bluffer to me, in terms of trying to go Corleone on the rates only to increase them when push came to shove. And if he truly believes health care is the major driver of our deficit, why does he want to cut social security? As I said ages ago, it seems like nothing more than checking a box for him, so he can say he cut entitlements and the village people can celebrate.

 

[empty vessel]

We just got an e-mail at work saying we will be seeing a 2% reduction in take home pay due to the payroll tax holiday expiring. I don't honestly know much about this and was wondering if anyone could summarize it or provide an article about it.

Two years ago, Congress passed a law reducing taxes it imposes on your work by 2%. One year ago, Congress passed a law raising taxes it imposes on your work by 2% beginning this year. So that's what it is. The reduction was intended as economic stimulus. It was raised despite the need for continued stimulus to appease deficit hysterics.

 

[RDreamer]

We just got an e-mail at work saying we will be seeing a 2% reduction in take home pay due to the payroll tax holiday expiring. I don't honestly know much about this and was wondering if anyone could summarize it or provide an article about it.

There isn't much more to it than that. For the last 2 years or so you were taking home 2% more in pay, because there was a payroll tax holiday. They did this for stimulative purposes. That holiday is now done, and you'll be paying more.

You were paying about 4.2% toward social security, and now you'll go back to I think 6.2%.

Obama had an extension of that holiday in his first fiscal cliff offer, but it was essentially a non-starter. Democrats caved easily on it because it funds social security, and republicans don't care about tax cuts for anyone but rich people, apparently.

 

[soul creator]

We just got an e-mail at work saying we will be seeing a 2% reduction in take home pay due to the payroll tax holiday expiring. I don't honestly know much about this and was wondering if anyone could summarize it or provide an article about it.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/01/obamas-next-fight.html

edit: beaten

 

[Jackben]

Anyone know why TacticalFox is banned?

 

[Leunam]

Thanks for the info. It's not technically an 'active' decrease in pay I guess since the tax that we pay now is simply reverting to what it had been all along before the holiday.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Bravo for the Hagel nomination

Awesome

 

[kehs]

There isn't much more to it than that. For the last 2 years or so you were taking home 2% more in pay, because there was a payroll tax holiday. They did this for stimulative purposes. That holiday is now done, and you'll be paying more.

You were paying about 4.2% toward social security, and now you'll go back to I think 6.2%.

Obama had an extension of that holiday in his first fiscal cliff offer, but it was essentially a non-starter. Democrats caved easily on it because it funds social security, and republicans don't care about tax cuts for anyone but rich people, apparently.

I don't think they "caved" on it, I think they intentionally didn't pursue it, to have something to use in the coming months. Bring out a new hashtag (like #my2k) and pin the raise on the repubs for not wanting anymore middle class stimulus.

 

[RDreamer]

I don't think they "caved" on it, I think they intentionally didn't pursue it, to have something to use in the coming months. Bring out a new hashtag (like #my2k) and pin the raise on the repubs for not wanting anymore middle class stimulus.

That seems like odd leverage, letting it slip like that. You'd think if they were going to pursue that, they'd have fought for it to begin with, not let it slip and then fought for it. I mean they were just fighting about not letting taxes go up on the middle class, etc. That would have been a real concrete way to do just that. Letting it lapse and then coming back for it is weird.

 

[Black Mamba]

Meh. Makes him look like a giant bluffer to me, in terms of trying to go Corleone on the rates only to increase them when push came to shove. And if he truly believes health care is the major driver of our deficit, why does he want to cut social security? As I said ages ago, it seems like nothing more than checking a box for him, so he can say he cut entitlements and the village people can celebrate.

Where is your evidence that Obama wants to cut SS? Note: offering something doesn't mean they want it.

 

[kehs]

That seems like odd leverage, letting it slip like that. You'd think if they were going to pursue that, they'd have fought for it to begin with, not let it slip and then fought for it. I mean they were just fighting about not letting taxes go up on the middle class, etc. That would have been a real concrete way to do just that. Letting it lapse and then coming back for it is weird.

Well, they had to give things up to maneuver a deal, that's as easy a "compromise" as any. It was temporary to begin with, so no need to put a big fight for that.

---

Obama Truth Team is still busy...spiking the football.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gNDE25a_OF8

 

[speculawyer]

Oh you crazy kids.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Cheers, a standing ovation and a gag gift of protective headgear greeted Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton as she returned to work on Monday after a monthlong absence caused first by a stomach virus, then a fall and a concussion and finally a brief hospitalization for a blood clot near her brain.

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-back-hospitalization-174043030.html

 

[Gotchaye]

Well, they had to give things up to maneuver a deal, that's as easy a "compromise" as any. It was temporary to begin with, so no need to put a big fight for that.

But that's not how compromise works in politics. You don't compromise by pretending that you're not even interested in something. It's very important to make clear that you do actually want the thing and are making a sacrifice by not pursuing it. It's vitally important that voters know why final legislation looks the way it does, and they need to know what each party's ideal legislation would have been.

 

[speculawyer]

Obama's absolutely right that our long term problem, financially for the federal government, is healthcare spending.

Yep. We need to do something to bring our healthcare spending in line with the rest of the industrialized world (UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, France, Italy, etc.).


The GOP who are allegedly the fiscal conservatives actually ran for office claiming that Obama was the big meanie who took money from that medicare budget. So what good are they for helping bring down healthcare costs?

 

[Marvie_3]

Oh you crazy kids.

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-back-hospitalization-174043030.html

Awesome :lol

 

[PhoenixDark]

Where is your evidence that Obama wants to cut SS? Note: offering something doesn't mean they want it.

He put it on the table, republicans didn't. In fact he then went on MTP and reiterated his support for it.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Meh. Makes him look like a giant bluffer to me, in terms of trying to go Corleone on the rates only to increase them when push came to shove. And if he truly believes health care is the major driver of our deficit, why does he want to cut social security? As I said ages ago, it seems like nothing more than checking a box for him, so he can say he cut entitlements and the village people can celebrate.

11th dimension.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Oh you crazy kids.

http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-back-hospitalization-174043030.html

The blond in the back looks like Valerie Plame.

 

[Averon]

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/pew-obama-clear-winner-of-fiscal-cliff-negotiatons

The poll also showed that 48 percent approve of Obama's handling of the fiscal talks, while 40 percent disapprove — a tepid rating, but one that is much stronger than the one given to the Congressional GOP. A mere 19 percent of Americans said they approve of the way Republicans on Capitol Hill handled the talks, while 66 percent disapprove.

 

[PhoenixDark]

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/pew-obama-clear-winner-of-fiscal-cliff-negotiatons

Pretty low rating for Obama, which suggests his supporters aren't particularly enthused. I think the White House is in for a rude awakening in a couple months, when Obama's numbers come down to earth and the media revives the "both sides won't work together" meme.

 

[Clevinger]

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/pew-obama-clear-winner-of-fiscal-cliff-negotiatons

Huh. Apparently your supporters don't like it when you randomly offer SS and Medicare cuts. Whowouldathunk

 

[Black Mamba]

Pretty low rating for Obama, which suggests his supporters aren't particularly enthused. I think the White House is in for a rude awakening in a couple months, when Obama's numbers come down to earth and the media revives the "both sides won't work together" meme.

Excellent news when you consider liberals probably pissed. Obama won the median voter. Look at those congressional disapproval ratings. Lol

Like i said, Obama just banked major political capital.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Pretty low rating for Obama, which suggests his supporters aren't particularly enthused. I think the White House is in for a rude awakening in a couple months, when Obama's numbers come down to earth and the media revives the "both sides won't work together" meme.

48-40 isn't bad for a country that has about 40% predisposed to dislike anything he proposes.

 

[Plinko]

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/pew-obama-clear-winner-of-fiscal-cliff-negotiatons

A mere 19 percent of Americans said they approve of the way Republicans on Capitol Hill handled the talks, while 66 percent disapprove.

:lol

 

[empty vessel]

Look at those congressional disapproval ratings. Lol

A lot of those negatives are Republicans. And not because they think the House Republicans are acting too conservatively either.

 

[Officerrob]

A lot of those negatives are Republicans. And not because they think the House Republicans are acting too conservatively either.

On the other hand, probably all of that 19% were Republicans

 

[zero_suit]

On the other hand, probably all of that 19% were Republicans

Yup, probably the same ones that supported Bush near the end of his 2nd term.

 

[The Librarian]

So apparently Robert Kennedy was a HUGE dick.

One time he took his "friend" on a sailboat with him &#8211; a friend who doesn't know how to sail, mind you &#8211; then around lunch time, the wind died down. That same day at around noon he had to meet his father for lunch. Bob, realizing that he would be late if he tried to sail back with the small amount of wind available to him, decided to jump overboard and swim to shore, leaving his clueless friend on the boat by himself. His friend was later rescued by another boat passing by.

He was also on McCarthy's committee to root out "communist spies," and he was a believer in what McCarthy was doing.

 

[B-Dubs]

So apparently Robert Kennedy was a HUGE dick.

One time he took his "friend" on a sailboat with him – a friend who doesn't know how to sail, mind you – then around lunch time, the wind died down. That same day at around noon he had to meet his father for lunch. Bob, realizing that he would be late if he tried to sail back with the small amount of wind available to him, decided to jump overboard and swim to shore, leaving his clueless friend on the boat by himself. His friend was later rescued by another boat passing by.

He was also on McCarthy's committee to root out "community spies," and he was a believer in what McCarthy was doing.

Ok, I laughed at the first one. Dick move sure, but still funny. The second one though? Very not good.

 

[QuiteWhittle]

So apparently Robert Kennedy was a HUGE dick.

One time he took his "friend" on a sailboat with him – a friend who doesn't know how to sail, mind you – then around lunch time, the wind died down. That same day at around noon he had to meet his father for lunch. Bob, realizing that he would be late if he tried to sail back with the small amount of wind available to him, decided to jump overboard and swim to shore, leaving his clueless friend on the boat by himself. His friend was later rescued by another boat passing by.

He was also on McCarthy's committee to root out "community spies," and he was a believer in what McCarthy was doing.

He didn't get really liberal until his soul searching after his brother's death.

 

[Magni]

So apparently Robert Kennedy was a HUGE dick.

One time he took his "friend" on a sailboat with him &#8211; a friend who doesn't know how to sail, mind you &#8211; then around lunch time, the wind died down. That same day at around noon he had to meet his father for lunch. Bob, realizing that he would be late if he tried to sail back with the small amount of wind available to him, decided to jump overboard and swim to shore, leaving his clueless friend on the boat by himself. His friend was later rescued by another boat passing by.

He was also on McCarthy's committee to root out "community spies," and he was a believer in what McCarthy was doing.

Stern demonstrates that Robert Kennedy hardly inhabited the conciliatory and statesmanlike role during the crisis that his allies described in their hagiographic chronicles and memoirs and that he himself advanced in his posthumously published book, Thirteen Days. In fact, he was among the most consistently and recklessly hawkish of the president&#8217;s advisers, pushing not for a blockade or even air strikes against Cuba but for a full-scale invasion as &#8220;the last chance we will have to destroy Castro.&#8221; Stern authoritatively concludes that &#8220;if RFK had been president, and the views he expressed during the ExComm meetings had prevailed, nuclear war would have been the nearly certain outcome.&#8221; He justifiably excoriates the sycophantic courtier Schlesinger, whose histories &#8220;repeatedly manipulated and obscured the facts&#8221; and whose accounts&#8212;&#8220;profoundly misleading if not out-and-out deceptive&#8221;&#8212;were written to serve not scholarship but the Kennedys.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/01/the-real-cuban-missile-crisis/309190/

RFK was bad, and his brother was arguably the worst post-WWII Democratic president. 1960 must have been an awful election (his opponent was Nixon). (edit: and yes, I know Kennedy bought/stole the election).

edit: that article by The Atlantic about the Cuban missile crisis is a great read by the way, I advise you all to read it.

 

[The Librarian]

I think Bob Kennedy's relationship with his father was from where PD based his "Obama has daddy issues" troll. Bob had daddy issues. Or, more to the point, his dad placed all his hopes in JFK and Joe Kennedy and up until where I'm at (1959), never paid much attention to Bob.

 

[speculawyer]

So apparently Robert Kennedy was a HUGE dick.

One time he took his "friend" on a sailboat with him – a friend who doesn't know how to sail, mind you – then around lunch time, the wind died down. That same day at around noon he had to meet his father for lunch. Bob, realizing that he would be late if he tried to sail back with the small amount of wind available to him, decided to jump overboard and swim to shore, leaving his clueless friend on the boat by himself.

I've actually done this to people. It was just a little sailboat on a lake though.

 

[Black Mamba]

A lot of those negatives are Republicans. And not because they think the House Republicans are acting too conservatively either.

Of course. But even if you take some 25% from both sides, you still have about 20% of the populace not happy. That is the median voter.

70% does not make up biased liberals and conservatives. Otherwise we'd have seen Obama's numbers much worse than 40% disapproval.

 

[Chichikov]

I've actually done this to people. It was just a little sailboat on a lake though.

Did you also sell out the civil rights movement for a short term political gain?

 

[The Librarian]

Did you also sell out the civil rights movement for a short term political gain?

How did he sell out the civil rights movement?

Also, good news here. Troops discharged under DADT since 2004 will now receive full severance pay.

 

[Chichikov]

How did he sell out the civil rights movement?

One black person at a time.

Spoiler

He actively opposed the freedom riders and ended up striking a terrible deal with the governors of Alabama and Mississippi that allow those corrupt racist fucks to jail them.
He approved wiretapping oh MLK's phone.
He did shit and all to take meaningful legislative steps on that front.

 

[The Librarian]

One black person at a time.

Spoiler

He actively opposed the freedom riders and ended up striking a terrible deal with the governors of Alabama and Mississippi that allow those corrupt racist fucks to jail them.
He approved wiretapping oh MLK's phone.
He did shit and all to take meaningful legislative steps on that front.

Eh. I don't know anything about the context or even heard about the first two, so can't say anything about those. Not sure what you're referring with "that front," but I assume that's civil rights legislation. Kennedy was terrible at getting substantial legislation passed, true, but from what I've read so far, that was more his ineffectiveness to get anything passed than not wanting to get stuff done. Although this doesn't explain his lack of use of Lyndon Johnson to help push legislation through Congress, Kennedy's ineffectiveness in legislating stems from Addison's disease. For most of his time in Congress, he was away sick. Didn't really have time to build up knowledge about either chamber, or relationships with its members.

Unrelated: Why do you always type one sentence out then press enter on your keyboard?

Edit: Also: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/po...jennifer_rubin_goes_to_war042247.php#comments

 

[RDreamer]

Even Krugman's getting on the trillion dollar coin idea