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[Black Mamba]

Starting to get a little unnerved at how much pressure there is for the platinum coin option. At this point I think all the blogs and writers I read have commented, mostly in favor of it, while the White House is ostentatiously silent on the issue. Fanning the flames of popular opinion?

I think it's a bad idea. Why change the optics.

if it's off the table, then it's up to the GOP to raise the limit. If they don't, they're fucked. If Obama preempts them with the coin, even if it's legal, it makes him look bad. Unwilling to negotiate, dictator, etc.

However, if Obama were to wait 5 days or so after we pass the debt ceiling and go on TV and mention how he is taking extraordinary measures because of the failure of the GOP to meet their obligations, then it would be different.

But I still have zero belief the GOP would let us get to there, so why inflict self-harm is you're Obama?

 

[el retorno]

Looking at that picture, I'm gonna say yes.

lol


Also do they think they're clever for using the Obama O?

 

[nib95]

More I read on Hagel, the more I think he was a good choice. Is this going to lend itself to Republicans tearing apart one of their own then?

Also, lol at the Emergency Committee for Israel starting the attack campaign on Hagel. What the hell is this committee?

Chuck Hagel pick creates unusual fight

 

[el retorno]

More I read on Hagel, the more I think he was a good choice. Is this going to lend itself to Republicans tearing apart one of their own then?

Also, lol at the Emergency Committee for Israel starting the attack campaign on Hagel. What the hell is this committee?

Chuck Hagel pick creates unusual fight

http://www.theonion.com/articles/is...g&utm_campaign=standard-post:headline:default

JERUSALEM—Top-ranking government officials in Jerusalem confirmed Tuesday that Israel would exercise its longstanding, constitutionally granted veto power over American policy if U.S. lawmakers confirmed retired congressman Chuck Hagel as the United States’ next Secretary of Defense. “In light of Mr. Hagel’s worrying remarks on Israeli-Palestinian relations and questionable classification of Israeli interests as ‘the Jewish lobby,’ we consider him a highly inappropriate choice for Defense Secretary who stands far out of line with our national priorities, and therefore we are prepared to swiftly and resolutely use our official veto power over this U.S. action,” said Israeli government spokesperson Mark Regev of the legal maneuver that the small Middle Eastern nation has employed to block U.S. Cabinet nominees, U.S. legislation, U.S. international relations, and U.S. domestic policy over 1,400 times in its 64-year history. “Because congress does not possess the necessary nine-tenths majority to override an Israeli veto, they’ll have no choice but to head back to the drawing board and provide a Defense Secretary whom we find more suitable.” Sources confirmed that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had sent the White House a list of three individuals the Israeli leader considered appropriate to head the American military from which U.S. President Barack Obama could choose

 

[pigeon]

I think it's a bad idea. Why change the optics.

if it's off the table, then it's up to the GOP to raise the limit. If they don't, they're fucked. If Obama preempts them with the coin, even if it's legal, it makes him look bad. Unwilling to negotiate, dictator, etc.

However, if Obama were to wait 5 days or so after we pass the debt ceiling and go on TV and mention how he is taking extraordinary measures because of the failure of the GOP to meet their obligations, then it would be different.

I agree that the best course of action for Obama is to wait until the absolute last moment to mint the sucker, and I suspect it won't be necessary.

That said, I am pretty amused by the idea of putting Reagan on it.

 

[RDreamer]

I agree that the best course of action for Obama is to wait until the absolute last moment to mint the sucker, and I suspect it won't be necessary.

That said, I am pretty amused by the idea of putting Reagan on it.

So, if he puts Reagan on it and does what that former treasury guy said and melts it down afterwards, do you think the right will blast him for melting down a one of a kind Reagan coin, too?

 

[pigeon]

So, if he puts Reagan on it and does what that former treasury guy said and melts it down afterwards, do you think the right will blast him for melting down a one of a kind Reagan coin, too?

It doesn't HAVE to be one of a kind!

 

[Frank the Great]

I don't like the coin idea. I think the debt ceiling law itself is unconstitutional under section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment and should be overturned.

I don't know the procedure involved in getting the debt ceiling law before a court, but it should be pursued by the administration. It seems to me the cleanest way to get rid of the problem without too much political backlash (the public trusts the courts a lot more than the political branches.)

 

[Amir0x]

God DAMNIT. Fuck off, Lindsey!. >:[

Just to add to the clusterfuckery that is my state.

People Who Want to Nullify 'Obamacare' Rally in SC

There's a picture. All I see are old, white men who are probably on disability/social security. The very definition of "Fuck you, I got mine."

boy these people don't know when they're beat, christ.

 

[RDreamer]

(the public trusts the courts a lot more than the political branches.)

I'm going to direct you further up the page to the gathering of people declaring Obamacare unconstitutional.

Spoiler

I know you're pretty much right, mostly because minting a trillion dollar coin sounds a bit more out there than the constitutional route for the average person

 

[Chumly]

I don't like the coin idea. I think the debt ceiling law itself is unconstitutional under section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment and should be overturned.

I don't know the procedure involved in getting the debt ceiling law before a court, but it should be pursued by the administration. It seems to me the cleanest way to get rid of the problem without too much political backlash (the public trusts the courts a lot more than the political branches.)

Does it have to be challenged in court or can Obama just raise it

 

[pigeon]

I don't like the coin idea. I think the debt ceiling law itself is unconstitutional under section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment and should be overturned.

I don't know the procedure involved in getting the debt ceiling law before a court, but it should be pursued by the administration. It seems to me the cleanest way to get rid of the problem without too much political backlash (the public trusts the courts a lot more than the political branches.)

The problem is that the way to get it before a court is for Obama to just unilaterally do it. Some people think SCOTUS wouldn't hear the case, but since it would basically be a constitutional crisis I'm pretty sure they would. Unfortunately, if they did happen to find against him, the next step would be impeachment and trial. So Obama would basically be betting his Presidency on it, which I don't think he wants to do. That's why he really wants the debt ceiling to be de facto overturned without having to actually go to court to do it.

 

[Gotchaye]

The problem is that the way to get it before a court is for Obama to just unilaterally do it. Some people think SCOTUS wouldn't hear the case, but since it would basically be a constitutional crisis I'm pretty sure they would. Unfortunately, if they did happen to find against him, the next step would be impeachment and trial. So Obama would basically be betting his Presidency on it, which I don't think he wants to do. That's why he really wants the debt ceiling to be de facto overturned without having to actually go to court to do it.

IANAL, but I would have expected this to go the other way. This is exactly the sort of dispute between the legislative and executive that the Court doesn't need to intervene in. If Congress thinks Obama is actually in the wrong here and is flagrantly violating the Constitution, they can impeach and convict him. If Congress isn't (procedurally) objecting, then it's hard to say that there's a constitutional crisis.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The problem is that the way to get it before a court is for Obama to just unilaterally do it. Some people think SCOTUS wouldn't hear the case, but since it would basically be a constitutional crisis I'm pretty sure they would. Unfortunately, if they did happen to find against him, the next step would be impeachment and trial. So Obama would basically be betting his Presidency on it, which I don't think he wants to do. That's why he really wants the debt ceiling to be de facto overturned without having to actually go to court to do it.

By ruling against him, wouldn't the SC be violating the 14th amendment by questioning US debt?

 

[LosDaddie]

And probably a lot of veterans who get medical care in one of the most socialist healthcare programs we have.

They can't be bothered to learn what that new fangled hypocrisy thing is.

I don't understand your point here. The healthcare those guys would receive is a benefit of their job (a US soldier).

 

[Dude Abides]

Does it have to be challenged in court or can Obama just raise it

Obama can just say "the requirement that the debt ceiling be raised is unconstitutional and therefore I will disregard it. The United States will continue to honor its sovereign debt obligations."

Congress could then sue but hopefully the SC would say it's a political question and do nothing.

 

[FyreWulff]

I don't understand your point here. The healthcare those guys would receive is a benefit of their job (a US soldier).

The military is a socialist program, though. Once you're in, your job is guaranteed by the government, there's a fix pay scale and pay ceiling, housing etc is provided for you, etc. Your benefits also continue after you no longer actually work for the military at all, which is not something a normal employer would do. And this is all funded by tax dollars.

The point is these people participated in a completely government funded job and program and now want to deny people the benefits of being in a completely government funded program. It's hypocrisy.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Obama can just say "the requirement that the debt ceiling be raised is unconstitutional and therefore I will disregard it. The United States will continue to honor its sovereign debt obligations."

Congress could then sue but hopefully the SC would say it's a political question and do nothing.

Sounds like a sure fire impeachment, given the House. Obama wouldn't be removed from office but still, doesn't seem like a great choice.

Makes more sense to dare republicans to crash the economy. We're forgetting the bill would only need around 18-19 republicans to pass. I just don't see Wall St. creatures like Cantor and Boehner ruining their donors/the economy for no reason.

 

[LosDaddie]

The military is a socialist program, though. Once you're in, your job is guaranteed by the government, there's a fix pay scale and pay ceiling, housing etc is provided for you, etc. Your benefits also continue after you no longer actually work for the military at all, which is not something a normal employer would do. And this is all funded by tax dollars.

The point is these people participated in a completely government funded job and program and now want to deny people the benefits of being in a completely government funded program. It's hypocrisy.

I understand all that, and why you think this is a great "GOTCHA!" moment you have here, but it's still the career those guys decided to take. A career with great benefits.

 

[ezrarh]

The military is a socialist program, though. Once you're in, your job is guaranteed by the government, there's a fix pay scale and pay ceiling, housing etc is provided for you, etc. Your benefits also continue after you no longer actually work for the military at all, which is not something a normal employer would do. And this is all funded by tax dollars.

The point is these people participated in a completely government funded job and program and now want to deny people the benefits of being in a completely government funded program. It's hypocrisy.

But don't you see, these guys worked for it. Everybody else that is using the medicare and Obamacare are lazy societal leeches.

That's a serious retort that they will use. That's how they justify redistribution of wealth when it benefits them because they earned it and everybody else are moochers.

 

[el retorno]

Obama can just say "the requirement that the debt ceiling be raised is unconstitutional and therefore I will disregard it. The United States will continue to honor its sovereign debt obligations."

Congress could then sue but hopefully the SC would say it's a political question and do nothing.

How did the line item veto get overturned?

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I'm looking for some good resources that explain the breakdown in both federal and local taxes paid by different segments of the population, particularly toward the top. Anyone?

 

[Wilsongt]

I understand all that, and why you think this is a great "GOTCHA!" moment you have here, but it's still the career those guys decided to take. A career with great benefits.

So they choose this career with their benefits. Not everyone can work a job with such benefits that offer life time healthcare. Once you leave the military, you are set for life and just gotta waltz to the VA. Not everyone has that choice. Thus, "Fuck you, I got mine".

Why should someone else suffer without adequate health insurance who have legitimate reasons for not being able to afford it while other people have the privilege of getting health care?

Not everyone who has Medicaid or who qualities for "Obamacare" are moochers from the government. You have students who can't afford health insurance, or their parents can't afford health insurance or are not offered it through their job thus they cannot get it. You have people who work jobs that don't provide health coverage and the have to pick and choose whether to eat or go to the doctor.

 

[FyreWulff]

I understand all that, and why you think this is a great "GOTCHA!" moment you have here, but it's still the career those guys decided to take. A career with great benefits.

LOL, it isn't a gotcha moment. I've said this consistently. Also, depending on what war they were in, they didn't decide to take the career, they got drafted if they're Vietnam era guys.

My stepdad is a Army vet and we're constantly trying to convince him to use the VA system for healthcare that he could get for free or reduced cost that he's paying full price for normally, but he's so hardcore Republican he doesn't want to use his government healthcare.

Healthcare is and should be viewed as a natural right, not a bonus to pile on top of a job title. It's possible to work 3 jobs at once and still not get healthcare because they simply don't offer it.

 

[KtSlime]

I understand all that, and why you think this is a great "GOTCHA!" moment you have here, but it's still the career those guys decided to take. A career with great benefits.

Why should this matter? Why should health care be tied to employment? The only thing it does is take one bargaining chip from a citizens hand and puts it in the hands of business allowing them to reduce how much they pay their employees. If anything we should be in favor of getting healthcare out of the hands of employers.

 

[speculawyer]

I understand all that, and why you think this is a great "GOTCHA!" moment you have here, but it's still the career those guys decided to take. A career with great benefits.

Well I'm willing to pay into a government program to get what they get. A good program that controls healthcare costs, uses their large power to bargain with pharma companies to get cheap drugs, etc. Why are they preventing other people from getting what they get? Why is my only option for such a program to sign up with the military?

 

[Marvie_3]

Well I'm willing to pay into a government program to get what they get. A good program that controls healthcare costs, uses their large power to bargain with pharma companies to get cheap drugs, etc. Why are they preventing other people from getting what they get? Why is my only option for such a program to sign up with the military?

Because if you don't serve in the military you're a freedom hating communist and don't deserve health care.

 

[Dude Abides]

How did the line item veto get overturned?

It violated the Presentment Clause. Congress has to present a bill in its entirety for the Prez to sign or reject. He can't pick and choose. That was the logic. I don't think it would be applicable here. This would just be a Prez refusing to enforce a law he finds unconstitutional.

 

[zero shift]

But don't you see, these guys worked for it. Everybody else that is using the medicare and Obamacare are lazy societal leeches.

That's a serious retort that they will use. That's how they justify redistribution of wealth when it benefits them because they earned it and everybody else are moochers.

This is similar to people who justify social security as they "paid into it".

 

[el retorno]

It violated the Presentment Clause. Congress has to present a bill in its entirety for the Prez to sign or reject. He can't pick and choose. That was the logic. I don't think it would be applicable here. This would just be a Prez refusing to enforce a law he finds unconstitutional.

I meant how did it get to the court. Who sued who?

 

[Black Mamba]

I'm looking for some good resources that explain the breakdown in both federal and local taxes paid by different segments of the population, particularly toward the top. Anyone?

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Here is a state by state breakdown of just state taxes:

http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3.pdf

I meant how did it get to the court. Who sued who?

The Line Item Veto Act of 1996 enacted a line-item veto for the Federal government of the United States, but its effect was brief due to judicial review.
Public Law (P.L.) 104-130 [1] was introduced by Senator Bob Dole on January 4, 1995, cosponsored by Senator John McCain and 29 other senators. Related House Bills included H.R. 147, H.R. 391, H.R. 2,H.R. 27 and H.R. 3136. The bill was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on April 9, 1996 and was immediately challenged in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia by a group of six senators, first among whom was Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV), where it was declared unconstitutional by District Judge Harry Jackson, a Reagan appointee, on April 10, 1997. The case was subsequently remanded by the Supreme Court of the United States with instructions to dismiss on the grounds that the senators had not suffered sufficient, particularized injury to maintain suit under Article III of the United States Constitution (i.e., the senators lacked standing). The case, Raines v. Byrd, 521 U.S. 811 (1997), was handed down on June 26, 1997, and did not include a judgement on the constitutional grounds of the law.

It was used against one provision of the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 and two provisions of the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 before being challenged again in two separate cases; one by the City of New York, two hospital associations, one hospital, and two health care unions; the other by a farmers' cooperative from Idaho and an individual member of the cooperative. Senators Byrd, Moynihan, Levin, and Hatfield again opposed the law, this time through Amicus curiæ briefs.

Judge Thomas Hogan of the United States District Court for the District of Columbia combined the cases and declared the law unconstitutional on February 12, 1998.[2] This ruling was subsequently affirmed on June 25, 1998 by a 6-3 decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in the case Clinton v. City of New York. Justices Breyer, Scalia, and O'Connor dissented. The ruling has been criticized by legal scholars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_Item_Veto_Act_of_1996

 

[el retorno]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_Item_Veto_Act_of_1996

So individual members of congress can sue itself?

 

[LosDaddie]

:lol :lol

Oh, PoliGAF, how I <3 thee... Always so quick to arm the pitchforks against a perceived dissenter, eh? I guess I should post more instead of lurking.

What I'm saying is that under the current system, veterans have, indeed, earned the healthcare they receive, and they should use it. That doesn't make them hypocrits.

And yes, I also think that group is full of shitheads who are slowing down real healthcare reform. You guys think I agree with them? :lol Obamacare doesn't go far enough. I would've preferred a Public Option.

 

[Black Mamba]

So individual members of congress can sue itself?

Well, from what I gathered from that is the SCOTUS said pretty much no as there was no standing to injury.

It was the later case Clinton vs New York where it was overturned.

 

[Frank the Great]

I meant how did it get to the court. Who sued who?

The City of New York sued. Case was Clinton v. City of New York. If I remember correctly, some of the line items vetoed by Clinton caused financial injuries to some farmers or something, and they were able to sue.

Basically anyone can sue if they have standing - a particularized/concrete/imminent injury, causation, and redressability. The issue with the debt ceiling is whether anyone has standing to sue. Until the debt ceiling is actually ignored, how can one say that an injury is imminent? Theoretically, if we fail to raise the debt ceiling, then any holder of US bonds could sue to declare it unconstitutional, because the value of their debt would be directly harmed by Congress's actions.

I wonder if a court would allow such a plaintiff (holder of US bonds) to proceed nowadays, given the political volatility surrounding the debt ceiling. I'd say it's worth a shot. Anyone here hold t-bonds?

 

[Dude Abides]

I meant how did it get to the court. Who sued who?

First some Congressmen, but the court said they lacked standing. Then NYC, some health care organizations, and potato growers brought suits that were consolidated and ultimately decided on the merits.

Edit: beaten.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

That guy about wire thefts was right!

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Thieves-Steal-300000-From-Georgia-Movie-Set-186008142.html

 

[tranciful]

But if you put in all homicidal death, do you really think that graph would change in any significant way? Do you really think that there are enough stabbings, poisonings, bombings, etc. that would change that graph in a real noticeable manner? I doubt it.

I'd like to see that graph, is my point. This one isn't too useful for me because it'd be shot down immediately. I want to see the data that gun nuts would have a hard time ignoring. I want to change their minds or force their position to the extreme "I don't care how much harm they do, it's our right" stance.

 

[tranciful]

And probably a lot of veterans who get medical care in one of the most socialist healthcare programs we have.

My grandad would be right there with them. He was talking about how his veteran benefits weren't coming through. My mom asked why and he blamed Obama. I wanted to point out that Republicans have been consistently voting against veteran benefits, but he's getting really old and there's no point debating him.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

So they choose this career with their benefits. Not everyone can work a job with such benefits that offer life time healthcare. Once you leave the military, you are set for life and just gotta waltz to the VA. Not everyone has that choice. Thus, "Fuck you, I got mine".
.

You're forgetting that a lot of them would have been old enough to be drafted.

 

[tranciful]

I don't understand your point here. The healthcare those guys would receive is a benefit of their job (a US soldier).

Obamacare is a benefit of our taxes. And the point is, public healthcare isn't evil.

 

[Black Mamba]

The birther movement is now targeting Chief Justice John Roberts for impeachment if he swears in President Barack Obama for a second term later this month.

Craige McMillan, a columnist for the conservative publication WND.com, wrote a piece last week asking Roberts to not swear Obama in, because, according to McMillan, Obama does not meet the Constitution's definition of a natural born citizen. In the piece, McMillan claims that Obama is not a citizen because his father was a citizen of Kenya and the United Kingdom, and that Obama cannot be "a natural born citizen" because his father was not an American citizen. Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, was born and raised in Kansas by parents who were born in Kansas.

lolz

 

[FyreWulff]

Maybe these strict framer Constitution humping Birthers should know the swearing in is a formality, the President-Elect is automatically the President at noon on January 20th regardless if he's sworn in or Roberts turns into a duck.

 

[B-Dubs]

Are we doing this shit again? Really?

 

[watershed]

Maybe these strict framer Constitution humping Birthers should know the swearing in is a formality, the President-Elect is automatically the President at noon on January 20th regardless if he's sworn in or Roberts turns into a duck.

But seriously who wouldn't rather see this?

I hate to admit it but I read some comments on a few articles about Alex Jones' interview on Piers Morgan. Its genuinely astounding to me that some people believe and defend this guy.

 

[Chichikov]

Maybe these strict framer Constitution humping Birthers should know the swearing in is a formality, the President-Elect is automatically the President at noon on January 20th regardless if he's sworn in or Roberts turns into a duck.

The oath of office is very much in the Constitution, it doesn't say who should administer it or what happens if someone doesn't take it, but it says in no uncertain terms that the president must take it before assuming office.

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I hope Obama uses a Quran finally for the oath

 

[kehs]

I hope Obama uses a Quran finally for the oath

Which one, the public or the secret one?

 

[worldrunover]

lolz

The constitution, how does it work?

 

[Piecake]

I hope Obama uses a Quran finally for the oath

He should use a copy of Spiderman #1 instead. That would be baller