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[Wilsongt]

It may be a little hyperbolic, but it's not like he hasn't done anything worthy of scorn. Could you in good conscience sanction the use of "signature" drone strikes?

No. I just looked up the statistics on it and saw just how many civilians and children killed there has been. If the kill rate of your target is less than the percentage of innocent bystander casualties, then it's time to rethink the method of action.

But, as I stated in that thread, his level is evil is far, far, far lower than some other world powers at the moment.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Abstract military thinking, even though designed for efficiency both in cost and collateral damage can still lead to horrendous actions, but I certainly won't say it's genocidal or anything like that.

 

[remist]

Abstract military thinking, even though designed for efficiency both in cost and collateral damage can still lead to horrendous actions, but I certainly won't say it's genocidal or anything like that.

Except we're not talking about war zones. We're talking about assassinations in counties we are not at war with.

 

[Black Mamba]

I forget who the poster was that asked about part time vs full time jobs under Obama, but it seems the original basis for the article he linked was another article that looked at just the last 6 months.

Well, Bloomberg destroyed that argument, today: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-08/is-obamacare-forcing-you-to-work-part-time-.html

basically, cherry-picked data and bad methodology. Unsurprising. Obamacare, to this point, is having no effect on part-time vs full time employment or hours.


On another issue, Matthew O'Brien shatters the argument that Uncertainty is hurting jobs as now the uncertainty is low but the economy isn't picking up quicker. In fact, there is no statistically significant relationship since 2008 between uncertainty and jobs.

You'd think the right would get something correct by accident.

Spoiler

haha not really

 

[zero shift]

I can't be the only one who found Future Zombies thread hilarious.

Right wingers in this site are so sour.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

It may be a little hyperbolic, but it's not like he hasn't done anything worthy of scorn. Could you in good conscience sanction the use of "signature" drone strikes?

In some cases depending on the intelligence and proportionality and where they take place (e.g. I wouldn't support them in non-warzone like Yemen or Somalia) yeah I can. I think its very short sighted if you only ask do you support signature drone strikes in a yes or no way, as if they are all the same. Its reminds me of the "your with us or against us" false dichotomy.

Though evil Obama just ended them.
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/07/25/2356391/pakistan-drones-signature-strikes/

 

[remist]

In some cases depending on the intelligence and proportionality and where they take place (e.g. I wouldn't support them in non-warzone like Yemen or Somalia) yeah I can. I think its very short sighted if you only ask do you support signature drone strikes in a yes or no way, as if they are all the same. Its reminds me of the "your with us or against us" false dichotomy.

Though evil Obama just ended them.
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/07/25/2356391/pakistan-drones-signature-strikes/

So in a warzone, you would support drone strikes on people who haven't been positively identified as enemy combatants, but may fit a behavior profile?

And most signature strikes have taken place outside of warzones under the auspices of the CIA.

 

[B-Dubs]

I can't be the only one who found Future Zombies thread hilarious.

Right wingers in this site are so sour.

Future Zombies thread? I'm going to need a link.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

So in a warzone, you would support drone strikes on people who haven't been positively identified as enemy combatants, but may fit a behavior profile?

And most signature strikes have taken place outside of warzones under the auspices of the CIA.

Way to load that question.

I think you need a very very good idea that the people you're attacking are enemies. Much of the identifying of enemies is based on behavior and not something like uniforms.

 

[remist]

Way to load that question.

I think you need a very very good idea that the people you're attacking are enemies.

Well the question I asked is what I consider the definition of a signature strike. Just clearing up a difference in semantics

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Well the question I asked is what I consider the definition signature strikes. Just clearing up a difference in semantics

The problem I have is when you assume definitions to what is 'positively identified' and 'behavior profile'.
I don't feel drone strikes are the targets of convenience they're made out to be

 

[Black Mamba]

Future Zombies thread? I'm going to need a link.

let me give you the tl;dr version:

Are you willing to change your political positions? Read Thomas Sowell and then you will liberal-GAF. He is a GOD!

::goes on to ignore any criticism of Sowell::

Oh liberal GAF simply ignoring my challenge to read his books!

 

[zero shift]

let me give you the tl;dr version:

Are you willing to change your political positions? Read Thomas Sowell and then you will liberal-GAF. He is a GOD!

::goes on to ignore any criticism of Sowell::

Oh liberal GAF simply ignoring my challenge to read his books!

I mean I read some of Sowell's quotes. Is the guy really THAT dumb? He's like if Ann Coulter became an "economist".

 

[B-Dubs]

let me give you the tl;dr version:

Are you willing to change your political positions? Read Thomas Sowell and then you will liberal-GAF. He is a GOD!

::goes on to ignore any criticism of Sowell::

Oh liberal GAF simply ignoring my challenge to read his books!

Oh that thread, I thought it was a thread about actual zombies or something. I had looked in, saw what book it was and left the thread. It's not worth getting into that, it'd piss me off too much and I'd probably get banned for a week or two.

I mean I read some of Sowell's quotes. Is the guy really THAT dumb? He's like if Ann Coulter became an "economist".

Dumber. Dumber than you can imagine.

 

[remist]

The problem I have is when you assume definitions to what is 'positively identified' and 'behavior profile'.
I don't feel drone strikes are the targets of convenience they're made out to be

Well, basically I would argue that if a target could conceivably be a civilian and is not a direct threat to US soldiers lives, it is immoral to assassinate them.

And have you seen the success rate of the drone strike program? It does not seem like they have been circumspect in their targeting, nor do I think we can trust them to be in the future.

 

[The Librarian]

House Republicans unveiling Obamacare alternative? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Interested to see how they keep all the good parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stuff they don't like.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Well, basically I would argue that if a target could conceivably be a civilian and is not a direct threat to US soldiers lives, it is immoral to assassinate them.

And have you seen the success rate of the drone strike program? It does not seem like they have been circumspect in their targeting, nor do I think we can trust them to be in the future.

Are you talking about the 2% figure?

And I think there is a distinction between hows its been used in some regards and what I support. I support drone strikes to a large extend. I don't support all the drone strikes that I've read about.

House Republicans unveiling Obamacare alternative? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Interested to see how they keep all the good parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stuff they don't like.

Its gonna be the same tired old cross state lines BS. Its going to based on fantasy and I'll bet you it might even get a good score from places like the CBO because they'll be required to score it with some insane assumptions made by the GOP.

 

[Link]

House Republicans unveiling Obamacare alternative? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Interested to see how they keep all the good parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stuff they don't like.

If you make more than $400k a year, you're covered! Poor people? You shouldn't have gotten sick!

 

[Black Mamba]

I mean I read some of Sowell's quotes. Is the guy really THAT dumb? He's like if Ann Coulter became an "economist".

This is actually a great comparison.

House Republicans unveiling Obamacare alternative? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Interested to see how they keep all the good parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stuff they don't like.

Sargent covered this today reminding us that Cantor just recently tried it and it failed. Hard-line conservatives don't want to cover pre-existing conditions because it's not functional without a mandate (unless you raise prices enormously like in NY).

October is 2 months away. The clock has run out on it. And them even showing up with some kind of last minute plan will look stupid. "So uh, the day before Obamacare exchanges are implemented you finally have a plan, eh? Yeah...."

 

[B-Dubs]

House Republicans unveiling Obamacare alternative? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Interested to see how they keep all the good parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stuff they don't like.

All they are going to do is allow the sale of insurance across state lines, which will lead to everyone being based out of Kansas and absolutely nothing being covered while prices skyrocket.

 

[PhoenixDark]

All they are going to do is allow the sale of insurance across state lines, which will lead to everyone being based out of Kansas and absolutely nothing being covered while prices skyrocket.

Don't forget tort reform, a mandate declaring you can keep your doctor, etc...

I'm sure there will be some good ideas in there, plus a lot of stuff already in Obamacare. The problem is that they won't have a mechanism to ensure all that shit works. IE a mandate. You need the mandate if you want to cover people with pre-existing conditions, that's just how it works.

 

[B-Dubs]

Don't forget tort reform, a mandate declaring you can keep your doctor, etc...

I'm sure there will be some good ideas in there, plus a lot of stuff already in Obamacare. The problem is that they won't have a mechanism to ensure all that shit works. IE a mandate. You need the mandate if you want to cover people with pre-existing conditions, that's just how it works.

Yea, we'd be better off just going single payer but we all know that won't happen within the next 20 years or so.

 

[Black Mamba]

lol @ CNN Dead Heat!

Also:

Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-OK) was fielding questions at the event in Afton, Okla. when a woman asked him about "Obama's identification."

"Let me just stop you right there. You're talking about the birth certificate?" Mullin said. "We lost that argument Nov. 6. We had four years to get that proven. We didn't. We re-elected him. So that's a dead issue."

...

"I believe what you’re saying and I don’t support this president whatsoever," he told her. "But ma’am, we lost Nov. 6. We had the opportunity to get another president in there."[/QUOTE]

yesssss, bring more birther stuff back!

Apparently, there's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXJd5ug4uto

edit: lol @ birther lady and the Congressman not wanting to even discuss it.

"it's a dead issue."

"NUH-UH!!!!"

 

[B-Dubs]

God damn Fox, way to let people hear the speech and form their own opinions.

Also PLEASE let the birther stuff come back, I could use a laugh or twelve.

 

[@____@]

House Republicans unveiling Obamacare alternative? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Interested to see how they keep all the good parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stuff they don't like.

Well

"In order to avoid a government shutdown, we need 60 votes in the Senate and 218 votes in the House to pass a continuing resolution," Cantor told National Review's Robert Costa. "To get 60 votes in the Senate, you need at least 14 Democrats to join Republicans and pass a CR that defunds Obamacare. Right now, I am not aware of a single Democrat in the Senate who would join us. If and when defunding has 60 votes in the Senate, we will absolutely deliver more than 218 votes in the House."

 

[Link]

God damn Fox, way to let people hear the speech and form their own opinions.

Also PLEASE let the birther stuff come back, I could use a laugh or twelve.

Vote Ted Cruz 2016!

 

[ivysaur12]

Apparently, there's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXJd5ug4uto

She sounds like she's about to cry.

 

[B-Dubs]

Well

He knows that he isn't in the majority right? I feel like someone has forgotten to tell him that.

Vote Ted Cruz 2016!

Great minds

 

[kehs]

She sounds like she's about to cry.

Well, she has an illegitimate president tyranying the country in to commurings.

 

[Wilsongt]

The stupidity is mind numbing...

 

[B-Dubs]

Everybody, everybody, bad news!

Louie Ghomert isn't going to be running for the US Senate.

Anyway moving on...

 

[Wilsongt]

Well, the Obama thread has finally run its course. That one was a doozy.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Everybody, everybody, bad news!

Louie Ghomert isn't going to be running for the US Senate.

Anyway moving on...

 

[AntoneM]

It may be a little hyperbolic, but it's not like he hasn't done anything worthy of scorn. Could you in good conscience sanction the use of "signature" drone strikes?

Could I as a "Joe Schmoe" citizen sanction those strikes? nope.

Could I as the president of the Untied States and the de-facto leader of the "free world" who was forced to be responsible for the war on terrorism and will have to answer for any and all terrorist attacks on any form of US property and sometimes on non-US property? Yeah, probably.

 

[RustyNails]

It may be a little hyperbolic, but it's not like he hasn't done anything worthy of scorn. Could you in good conscience sanction the use of "signature" drone strikes?

Pretty sure if Drone technology was available in 1992, Clinton would've used that to take out Mohammad Aided instead of sending in 100 marines into Somalia and losing 18 of them.

 

[remist]

Could I as a "Joe Schmoe" citizen sanction those strikes? nope.

Could I as the president of the Untied States and the de-facto leader of the "free world" who was forced to be responsible for the war on terrorism and will have to answer for any and all terrorist attacks on any form of US property and sometimes on non-US property? Yeah, probably.

I don't understand how you can defend this position. I don't care how scary Obama's presidential briefing is. You are playing Russian Roulette with innocent civilian lives just because they check a few boxes. You are sanctioning the assassination of someone who's name you don't even know, who has not even demonstrated themselves to be an immediate threat. It takes a serious lack of empathy for the people that live outside your country to rationalize this kind of behavior. I find this kind of jingoism pretty distasteful and it's disappointing that our president agrees with you.

Pretty sure if Drone technology was available in 1992, Clinton would've used that to take out Mohammad Aided instead of sending in 100 marines into Somalia and losing 18 of them.

I'm talking about signature strikes wherein the CIA kills people who they never even identify.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Well

Cantor's math seems to assume Obama would sign said mythical bill.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Could I as a "Joe Schmoe" citizen sanction those strikes? nope.

Could I as the president of the Untied States and the de-facto leader of the "free world" who was forced to be responsible for the war on terrorism and will have to answer for any and all terrorist attacks on any form of US property and sometimes on non-US property? Yeah, probably.

This strikes me as a very naive argument; defending the nation and green lighting operations that kill large amounts of innocent people are separate issues. If this was a case of accidentally bombing a grocery you thought was a terrorist haven sure, that's not a deliberate murder of innocents; nor is striking a film/journalist crew holding cameras that you thought were RPGs. But we're talking about a nearly indiscriminate, lawless program that is racking up crazy amounts of civilian deaths because there is no oversight and nobody cares who dies. That not only kills targets, but circles back around and kills anyone who approaches the bodies; how's that for racial profiling.

There are bad guys who need to be killed, I get that. I'm not universally opposed to the idea of a drone program. But I don't see any argument that can effectively defend what has been going on for the last near decade, especially since Obama took office. And you know what? Hillary will be worse, and the president after that will be worse. The ultimate failure of Obama's presidency is his refusal to change the system here, be it on civil liberty abuses at the NSA or drone strikes.

 

[East Lake]

I think Antone's point is largely that I would do X as president is a meaningless hypothetical. Plenty of people have been involved in indiscriminate killing for the US whether it had Congress' stamp on it or not, and a lot of them probably didn't go in ahead of time thinking they'd be ok with it.

 

[Mario]

It takes a serious lack of empathy for the people that live outside your country to rationalize this kind of behavior.

Fundamentally believing you are better than everyone else probably helps too.

 

[Wilsongt]

Fundamentally believing you are better than everyone else probably helps too.

America is full of selfish religious people it seems. How ironic.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

you are sanctioning the assassination of someone who's name you don't even know, who has not even demonstrated themselves to be an immediate threat.

Aka war. Most people who are targeted are unknown in war. We don't know the name of most people killed that's been true in Korea, WWI, WWII and the civil war.

I don't think you target things that have say a 50-50 shot of being civilians but something like 95-5 in a area that has a history of harboring terrorists AND fits a well defined pattern? I don't think that's always immoral and it's certainty not evil.

It might be short sighted and poor policy but that's a different question. There has been some horrible drone strikes that have killed people that did nothing wrong but also have saved others lives. It's not abut saying Americans are worth more than others. It's just that the president of America as an obligation to Americans before others. It's in his job description. He's not president of the world.

I should also say this is relevant to an area like Afghanistan or Pakistan which is an area that's directly part of a war zone where US personal are stationed. The further you get away from that the more immoral these strikes are. You need amazingly accurate information for and attack in Yemen for example.

 

[Mario]

Aka war. Most people who are targeted are unknown in war. We don't know the name of most people killed that's been true in Korea, WWI, WWII and the civil war.

Drone strikes are not being made under the banner of "war" though, at least not in the context you use the term above. Indeed, strikes are happening in states that might even be considered allies or at least "friendly" such as Pakistan.

Civilian casualties might be expected when a nation is in an active state of declared war. But at least civilians in such circumstances might have slightly more of a fighting chance by being more self aware, proactively avoiding potential military targets, and keeping their heads down and their wits about them.

 

[zero shift]

A bit off-topic but I'm getting a bit worried about my brother. He plays Team Fortress 2 WAY too much.

This is how much he has put in the game since he first downloaded it...in March. The crazy thing is that two weeks ago he made a new account to play the game so that 5.2 hours thing isn't accurate. I believe he has another account with something like 500 hours as well.

 

[Chichikov]

If we're going to start discussion video games here we got to talk about Papers Please AKA Obama's America: the video game.
If you're not familiar, it's kinda like Viva Pinata, it's a simulation game set in a magical beautiful kingdom where everything is great, colorful and awesome!

Plus it got full frontal nudity.

Hail Arstotzka!

 

[NYCmetsfan]

If we're going to start discussion video games here we got to talk about Papers Please AKA Obama's America: the video game.
If you're not familiar, it's kinda like Viva Pinata, it's a simulation game set in a magical beautiful kingdom where everything is great, colorful and awesome!

Plus it got full frontal nudity.

Hail Arstotzka!

Is that the indie game set in some communist country (probably the us in a few years, thanks Obama!)? It looked pretty cool though I never play PC games

 

[InsaneZero]

A bit off-topic but I'm getting a bit worried about my brother. He plays Team Fortress 2 WAY too much.

This is how much he has put in the game since he first downloaded it...in March. The crazy thing is that two weeks ago he made a new account to play the game so that 5.2 hours thing isn't accurate. I believe he has another account with something like 500 hours as well.

Your brother might be just idling for items.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Hey one conspiracy theory the right got right! Obamacare is designed to lead to single payer!

But already, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is predicting those plans, and the whole system of distributing them, will eventually be moot.

Reid said he thinks the country has to “work our way past” insurance-based health care during a Friday night appearance on Vegas PBS’ program “Nevada Week in Review.”

“What we’ve done with Obamacare is have a step in the right direction, but we’re far from having something that’s going to work forever,” Reid said.

When then asked by panelist Steve Sebelius whether he meant ultimately the country would have to have a health care system that abandoned insurance as the means of accessing it, Reid said: “Yes, yes. Absolutely, yes.”

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/aug/10/reid-says-obamacare-just-step-toward-eventual-sing/

From a conservative comment section

Once we become a single payer system, you don’t think folks will be denied care based on their political views gained from spying using government agencies? . . .

This next one is the best, I'd rather literally die than have single payer

I am just thankful I dont have much more time to watch my wonderful country fall into decay. i really believe obum is the Anti Christ and wants to destroy America

 

[The Librarian]

Speaking of videogames, I'm playing Donkey Kong Country Returns for the first time, in anticipation for Tropical Freeze, and I'm having so much fun. But I'm also dying a lot because it's hard.

 

[@____@]

Hey one conspiracy theory the right got right! Obamacare is designed to lead to single payer!



http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/aug/10/reid-says-obamacare-just-step-toward-eventual-sing/

From a conservative comment section

This next one is the best, I'd rather literally die than have single payer

I knew a guy who was a fundi to the max. Claimed to be a prophet of God. Claimed to have died multiple times and during the last time was taken up to heaven to meet Jesus. While there he was taught Hebrew through osmosis. Brought back to life and is now a preacher.

The last three years he has been obsessed with letting the world know that God told him the obum is the AntiChrist who will create peace between Israel and the Palestinians before 2016 and at that time Obum will finally claim for himself dictatorship of the world.

Obum

Hopefully his first act as Anti C is too proclaim a single payer system.