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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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C

Cloudy

Banned
Obama's Asia trip has been cancelled. There was no way he could go overseas with this mess ongoing. Dems can't do anything to give the media am excuse to start blaming them equally
 
D

Diablos

Member
RCNQ0Pl.png


lol
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Ugh, just was discussing the ACA with some republicans with turned into a argument over welfare in general. Anecdote, anecdote, Anecdote. "Welfares good if the people deserve it, but we give to much to people who abause it."

Ugh. How to you counter the fact these people only judge base on the one person who feeds their dog stake and thinks cuts don't hurt?
Or that people living on 300, 000 plus aren't suffering.

Republicans own anecdotes. Most Americans never see suffering but they all know someone whos on welfare and has a hummer.
 
P

Piecake

Member
APKmetsfan said:
Ugh, just was discussing the ACA with some republicans with turned into a argument over welfare in general. Anecdote, anecdote, Anecdote. "Welfares good if the people deserve it, but we give to much to people who abause it."

Ugh. How to you counter the fact these people only judge base on the one person who feeds their dog stake and thinks cuts don't hurt?
Or that people living on 300, 000 plus aren't suffering.

Republicans own anecdotes. Most Americans never see suffering but they all know someone whos on welfare and has a hummer.
Click to expand...

Republicanism is a disease and is characterized by a lack of empathy and understanding. Its simply easier to blame the victim or blame people for their own situation because then you don't have to do anything and can be as selfish as you want.
 
D

Diablos

Member
So Boehner has indicated he won't let the US economy tank. I'm happy to hear that.

The future implications are concerning, however. If this is indeed the last straw for the Tea Party sect -- what happens to Boehner?

But, wait. What really happens? Nohting can happen for now. Say they want to oust him. They a. have to have a new nominee, thus the Dems will know who he/she is and b. They need support from Dems to make it happen. If it is someone to the right of Boehner they won't do it. So wtf can the Tea Party do? Nominate someone like Boehner? Well, shit. Frankly, they are lucky to have him because he gives them a lot of extra lives when he doesn't have to. His leadership style is very accommodating to the demands of extremist voices in his caucus.

And with Boehner being Speaker, I find it hard to believe they'd be able to primary his ass. What is his district like? Is he popular there?

I just think a lot of this Tea Party angst is just that -- and has no real weight behind it. Boehner needs to start seeing that there is more to his caucus than 30-40 people. Honestly, they can't touch him.
 
J

JesseEwiak

Member
Gotchaye said:
Good read; it's very "Conservatives in the Mist". It's really unclear why the Moderates are still in the party; it speaks to the GOP's success at branding themselves the party of fiscal responsibility.
Click to expand...

The moderates are basically suburbanites who don't care about the gay couple across the street, want their daughter to get an abortion if her birth control fails, and thinks scientists should be listened too, but still cross the street when they see more than three black guys and believe the story their friend's friend told them about a welfare queen.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Piecake said:
Republicanism is a disease and is characterized by a lack of empathy and understanding. Its simply easier to blame the victim or blame people for their own situation because then you don't have to do anything and can be as selfish as you want.
Click to expand...
The thing is they claim compassion they're not yelling about the concept of welfare just they mythical welfare queen.

I think its classism and a bit of subtle racism. Also heard so much bootstrap crap. My parents didn't get help. I can't really counter it when I doubt their full honesty the people in their stories actually when without any help. Its hard to counter in person because you'd have to accuse them of lying and thats not a good way to make friends.

These people are 20ish. I don't have a lot of faith in some liberal resurgence except for demographic changes.
 
P

Piecake

Member
APKmetsfan said:
The thing is they claim compassion they're not yelling about the concept of welfare just they mythical welfare queen
Click to expand...

Well, sure. Everyone likes to pretend they are a good person. Bring it statistics into the argument. Show how effective it is and how their is VERY little abuse. If that doesnt convicne them, well...
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Piecake said:
Well, sure. Everyone likes to pretend they are a good person. Bring it statistics into the argument. Show how effective it is and how their is VERY little abuse. If that doesnt convicne them, well...
Click to expand...
Well Ive seen this person, its real! Your statistics are fake I can't see it!
 
P

Piecake

Member
APKmetsfan said:
Well Ive seen this person, its real! Your statistics are fake I can't see it!
Click to expand...

Well, he is either stupid and ignorant, or a selfish a-hole who lacks empathy. Side note, it seems my tolerance for conservative views has pretty much been eroded away thanks to all this BS. I probably should do something about that.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
APKmetsfan said:
Well Ive seen this person, its real! Your statistics are fake I can't see it!
Click to expand...

IMO people don't see the self serving benefits of welfare. Even if someone does game the system, it's better than them resorting to crime. Maybe they don't live near an area with poverty. Who knows. Either way I think most people don't get that there are societal benefits to welfare that go beyond compassion for poor people.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Piecake said:
Well, he is either stupid and ignorant, or a selfish a-hole who lacks empathy. Side note, it seems my tolerance for conservative views has pretty much been eroded away thanks to all this BS. I probably should do something about that.
Click to expand...
My tolerance is low but I try not to show it in person. Its just not productive.

Its ignorance I think they dont realize the extent of poverty, racism, inequality. People are blind to their privilege.

This one girl was explaning how unfair the government taking 50% of her parents assets when they pass is unfair. I'm sorry I don't feel for you. They put more value and emphasis on the unfairness of taxes than the fact people are starving and have shitty situation. I think the later is more important. It was the same thing with the ACA the few people who are getting kicked off existing individual plans and having to pay a few hundred more a year is more important than 40 million who never had care and were literally dying.
 
P

Piecake

Member
APKmetsfan said:
My tolerance is low but I try not to show it in person. Its just not productive.

Its ignorance I think they dont realize the extent of poverty, racism, inequality. People are blind to their privilege.

This one girl was explaning how unfair the government taking 50% of her parents assets when they pass is unfair. I'm sorry I don't feel for you. They put more value and emphasis on the unfairness of taxes than the fact people are starving and have shitty situation. I think the later is more important. It was the same thing with the ACA the few people who are getting kicked off existing individual plans and having to pay a few hundred more a year is more important than 40 million who never had care and were literally dying.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a lack of empathy and understanding to me. They can be shown the impacts of poverty on education, our pathetically low social mobility, the effectiveness of welfare, WIC and the like and say these people don't deserve it. They, however, deserve to be taxed less because its 'unfair'. Its ridiculous.
 
D

Dr. Pangloss

Member
If you guys are looking for reasons for why the far right is acting the way they are, then these two articles really provide some insight:

But to many conservatives, the right has never come remotely close to getting what it actually wants, whether in the Reagan era or the Gingrich years or now the age of the Tea Party — because what it wants is an actually smaller government, as opposed to one that just grows somewhat more slowly than liberals and the left would like. And this goal only ends up getting labeled as “extreme” in our debates, conservatives lament, because the right has never succeeded in dislodging certain basic assumptions about government established by F.D.R. and L.B.J. — under which a slower rate of spending growth is a “draconian cut,” an era of “small government” is one which in which the state grows immensely in absolute terms but holds steady as a share of G.D.P., and a rich society can never get rich enough to need less welfare spending per capita than it did when it was considerably poorer.

So what you’re seeing motivating the House Intransigents today, what’s driving their willingness to engage in probably-pointless brinksmanship, is not just anger at a specific Democratic administration, or opposition to a specific program, or disappointment over a single electoral defeat. Rather, it’s a revolt against the long term pattern I’ve just described: Against what these conservatives, and many on the right, see as forty years of failure, in which first Reagan and then Gingrich and now the Tea Party wave have all failed to deliver on the promise of an actual right-wing answer to the big left-wing victories of the 1930s and 1960s — and now, with Obamacare, of Obama’s first two years as well.

“They didn’t dare,” Frum wrote of the Intransigents’ Reagan-era predecessors, “and they realized that they didn’t dare.” Well, this time, no matter the risks and costs and polls, there are small-government conservatives who intend to dare — because only through a kind of wild daring, they believe, can the long-term, post-New Deal disadvantage that the cause of limited government labors under finally be overcome.

And if this attitude sounds more like a foolish romanticism than a prudent, responsible, grounded-in-reality conservatism — well, yes, unfortunately I think it pretty clearly is.

http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/why-the-right-fights/?_r=0
Click to expand...

I'd put a different hypothesis on the table. The big issue is the end of the Cold War. Back in the 1980s if you loved capitalism and the American free enterprise system that first and foremost meant the struggle against the forces of international communism. Domestic economic policy disputes were obviously a real thing, but the moral oomph came from the struggle against communism. And since a rather wide range of public policies qualify as "not communism" it was very possible to be fully emotionally invested in the struggle without needing to die on any particular hill. But absent the high moral stakes of a showdown with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republicans, an advocate of the free market needs to either reduce his level of emotional engagement in political struggle or else increase his perception of the stakes in rather small domestic tax and regulatory barriers.

Faced with Walter Mondale, in other words, you could complain he was soft on communism. To get the same oomph in the geopolitical context of today, you need to complain that Barack Obama is actually a communist. To younger people who didn't live through the Cold War and don't remember the way anti-communism made the careers of Reagan and Margaret Thatcher this can all seem a bit mystifying, and it's no coincidence that the youngest cohorts are the most liberal. But to folks who cut their teeth in the politics of the 1970s and 1980s this period is not that long ago and still very real.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/10/03/reagan_republicans_gop_loves_reagan_doesn_t_think_he_was_a_failure.html
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P

PhoenixDark

Banned
New York's Obamacare Website Has Received Nearly 30 Million Visits Since Tuesday

The website of New York state's newly launched health insurance exchange received almost 30 million visits between Tuesday and Wednesday.

The website has experienced technical difficulties since the exchanged opened for business on Tuesday. Officials have blamed the problems on the unexpectedly high level of traffic. In a statement on Wednesday, Donna Frescatore, executive director of NY State of Health, said her agency's website had received more traffic than any other state's.

"NY is one of only a few states that opened its website to the public to begin accepting applications on October 1 and has experienced the highest level of activity of any state," Frescatore said. "Today, like all other states, New York’s website is experiencing significant levels of activity, which is causing some users to experience difficulty entering the site and delays in application processing. In response to these issues, our technicians have doubled the site’s capacity and are working around the clock to troubleshoot emerging problems and ensure users have a better experience going forward. It is expected that 1.1 million New Yorkers will obtain health insurance through NY State of Health by 2016.”

On Tuesday, Frescatore issued a statement saying her agency's technicians would be looking into the cause of the "abnormally high traffic." Her latest statement does not mention any investigation, and on Thursday a New York State Department of Health spokesperson declined to comment to TPM about any updates on that front.

Here's Frescatore's full statement:

NY is one of only a few states that opened its website to the public to begin accepting applications on October 1 and has experienced the highest level of activity of any state. New York State has been able help thousands of New Yorkers shop for low-cost health insurance online, through its call centers and at hundreds of local assistance sites around the state. Since the launch of the New York State of Health marketplace, more than 12 thousand business owners and individuals from across the State have shopped online for low-cost health insurance plans at nystateofhealth.ny.gov, and the site has received nearly 30 million web visits. In addition, the state's customer service center operators have provided information to and answered questions from more than 9,000 New Yorkers. Today, like all other states, New York’s website is experiencing significant levels of activity, which is causing some users to experience difficulty entering the site and delays in application processing. In response to these issues, our technicians have doubled the site’s capacity and are working around the clock to troubleshoot emerging problems and ensure users have a better experience going forward. It is expected that 1.1 million New Yorkers will obtain health insurance through NY State of Health by 2016.
Click to expand...
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewi...ceived-nearly-30-million-visits-since-tuesday

What the hell is going on. The top comment on TPM is interesting:
I'm guessing either denial of service attack or somebody with a robot that tries different combinations of income and other statistics on the site to figure out the price structure.
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem like a DOS attack; I can't help but imagine we'd know about that by now. But the idea of massive data mining going on, to figure out the prices/structure/etc, seems interesting. May be far fetched but there's almost no way the site got 30m views naturally.
 
N

NihonTiger90

Member
Diablos said:
And with Boehner being Speaker, I find it hard to believe they'd be able to primary his ass. What is his district like? Is he popular there?
Click to expand...

The one question I can answer, being an Ohioan:

The Ohio Congressional 8th District is heavily Republican, a mix of super-rich white people who fled Cincinnati and rural Tea Party folks who basically want no taxes on anything ever. It's leaning much more Tea Party now, btw. There's also a tiny blip of Democratic voters known as Miami University (Ohio) in his district, but it's completely insignificant.

He already has a primary challenger, btw. Not a strong one, but folks in his district wanted the shutdown to get Obamacare removed. The Tea Party has protested outside his office for not going far enough on things in the past. He might be much more vulnerable than anyone thinks if the Tea Partiers line up a good candidate to challenge him.
 
J

jamesinclair

Banned
Unrelated to the current shutdown, Indiana may lose its Amtrak route.

Bush-republicans passed a law lowering the amount of fed subsidies that amtrak can take, forcing states to step in.

Red states arent happy, even though it was red state reps who forced this

INDIANAPOLIS — A state study released Thursday offers ways Indiana can improve ­Amtrak’s Indianapolis-to-Chicago serv­ice while reducing the tax money needed to keep it running after federal funding ends next week.

The Indiana Department of Transportation study found that one option adding a second daily round-trip train could ­reduce Amtrak’s taxpayer subsidy from $2.9 million to $2.8 million.

In the past, the U.S. government ­footed the bill for the subsidy, but that ends Tuesday. Amtrak has committed to keeping the service going until mid-October.

The study weighs four options for ­improving Amtrak’s service, and finances, by adding trains. It also explores keeping Amtrak at one train per day and reducing service to the federally funded line that runs three days a week

...

Amtrak’s current single-train service departs Indianapolis at 6 a.m. and leaves Chicago at 5:45 p.m. It draws about 37,000 riders a year and needs a state subsidy of about $2.9 million, the study found.

Adding a second daily train departing Indianapolis at 8 a.m. and leaving Chicago at 5:30 p.m., according to the study, would boost ridership to 88,000 and lower the subsidy to $2.8 million a year..
Click to expand...

http://www.jconline.com/article/20130926/NEWS01/309260047/INDOT-Amtrak-Transportation-Train?gcheck=1

Amusingly enough, running more service - more money (who knew!) but tea ehads may force the line to be completely eliminated.

Even though the money runs out next week....Indiana didnt begin their conversation on what to do until last week.
 
S

smokeandmirrors

Banned
I'm tired of people wanting a 'civil debate' about this whole thing. There is no debate. There is no civility. This is cut and dry 100% a Republican manifestation.

And I snapped on another forum I frequent. In a thread about the shutdown. Asking it not to become a gop blame train. I just can't deal with the stupid anymore and I'm glad I didn't lose my cool in any of the shutdown threads here. My week has been shit. Super stressed out over other non-related issues and tired of hearing about this bullshit. Not a good emotional response I know, but damnit this whole thing is just so tiring. So annoying. I grew up in the 90's so I missed the whole shutdown then. Was it as stupid as this?

I honestly just can't get over this carnival of stupid right now.

thanks for listening.
 
E

East Lake

Member
Dr. Pangloss said:
If you guys are looking for reasons for why the far right is acting the way they are, then these two articles really provide some insight:
Click to expand...
I read them and I come away feeling still that the logical framework of small government doesn't matter much. What even congressman, senators, or presidents desire in government reduction is probably whatever corporate dream is most viable at the moment. For instance if we're in the 50's and the Cold War is the big issue and communism is the great threat both the staunch anti-communist conservative and the United Fruit Company might agree that Arbenz is a threat to American interests, but the movement of that idea I don't think usually starts in the public.
 
B

BSsBrolly

Banned
I found playing dumb to be a good way to get through to moronic Facebook people. For example: a friend of mine posted that 28th amendment thing that's going around and I responded with, "what is this? A proposal for a new amendment? Cause there is no 28th amendment at this time..."

Post deleted.
 
G

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
You mean these mofos actually think that's the 28th amendment?

Good god republicans. Why are you so fucking stupid?
 
D

Diablos

Member
NihonTiger90 said:
The one question I can answer, being an Ohioan:

The Ohio Congressional 8th District is heavily Republican, a mix of super-rich white people who fled Cincinnati and rural Tea Party folks who basically want no taxes on anything ever. It's leaning much more Tea Party now, btw. There's also a tiny blip of Democratic voters known as Miami University (Ohio) in his district, but it's completely insignificant.

He already has a primary challenger, btw. Not a strong one, but folks in his district wanted the shutdown to get Obamacare removed. The Tea Party has protested outside his office for not going far enough on things in the past. He might be much more vulnerable than anyone thinks if the Tea Partiers line up a good candidate to challenge him.
Click to expand...
His challenger looks like a fucking nub. Wow.

Boehner will have big donors backing him to drown out gains made by his primary challenger. Frankly, Boehner is a wimp for thinking otherwise... I honestly cannot see him losing in his primary.

Also, Dems guarantee Boehner can never be replaced by someone to the right of him.

So I don't know why he's letting 30-40 people back him into a corner. What a wimp. Gingrich and Hastert, while major tools, would have never stood for this bullshit.
 
T

Trurl

Banned
BSsBrolly said:
I found playing dumb to be a good way to get through to moronic Facebook people. For example: a friend of mine posted that 28th amendment thing that's going around and I responded with, "what is this? A proposal for a new amendment? Cause there is no 28th amendment at this time..."

Post deleted.
Click to expand...
What 28th amendment thing? I haven't seen it.
 
X

xnipx

Member
Is this thread worthy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/health/millions-of-poor-are-left-uncovered-by-health-law.html

A sweeping national effort to extend health coverage to millions of Americans will leave out two-thirds of the poor blacks and single mothers and more than half of the low-wage workers who do not have insurance, the very kinds of people that the program was intended to help, according to an analysis of census data by The New York Times.

Because they live in states largely controlled by Republicans that have declined to participate in a vast expansion of Medicaid, the medical insurance program for the poor, they are among the eight million Americans who are impoverished, uninsured and ineligible for help. The federal government will pay for the expansion through 2016 and no less than 90 percent of costs in later years.
Click to expand...
 
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