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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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Chichikov

Member
We're not talking dogma so much as mindset.

If you are a black and white thinker, once you start to acknowlege grey the whole thing falls apart.
There are many people who will not change their mind, this is why this sort change take time (read: waiting for old farts to die) but again, look at history, pick any religion and you'll find out that it (and the people who follow it) had changed their mind on very very substantial issues.
And gay anything is not substantial, it's barely mentioned in the bible.
 
And yet the right has completely dismantled Chris Christie and Jeb Bush. Rubio is actively doing something "worse" than either of them, yet hasn't been attacked fully.
Pfft. You've got all sorts of personal narratives going on in your mind. You don't know the situation until things get closer and some real polling happens. And what the blowhard-pundits say is not all that important . . . most of them hated McCain and Romney.
 
Pfft. You've got all sorts of personal narratives going on in your mind. You don't know the situation until things get closer and some real polling happens. And what the blowhard-pundits say is not all that important . . . most of them hated McCain and Romney.

Huh? Rubio is currently leading GOP 2016 polls, alongside Paul. It's early but so far he hasn't taken any meaningful damage.
 
I think this misses that the existential fight is the whole point. There are a significant number of American Christians for whom the appeal of Christianity is that it's the right side in some epic struggle of good and evil. Importantly, this is prior to anything to do with what each side actually stands for. So "objective Christian morals" end up getting defined relative to the sorts of causes championed by atheists and heretic liberal Christians. This has been going on since at least the 70s, when the modern religious right organized around defending racial segregation as religious liberty.

They can't say "maybe liberals were right about this" without obliterating their own religion.
What's going to happen is that old conservatives will die lamenting all the moral decay they see while young conservatives will have neat explanations for how those old conservatives weren't really conservatives or Christians at all. There's no changing minds here. There can be no admission of error. This is where a lot of atheists come from - lots of de-conversion stories involve being taught how 'biblical' Christianity is either all true or all false.
But you kinda contradicted yourself there. Yes, they did start out in the 60's and 70's about defending racial segregation. It was the threat of losing their tax-exempt status that got them all hot & bothered and into politics because their segregated schools were going lose tax-exempt status. Racism is the ugly starting point of the religious-right (though it is largely gone now).

And they did eventually have to (quietly) admit that the liberals were right about that. Heck, Pat Robertson now has token black people on his TV shows. It will be a mix of both . . . some people will bail on their religion but I suspect most will just quietly change their views and not admit or rationalize that their religion was wrong.
 

Gotchaye

Member
But you kinda contradicted yourself there. Yes, they did start out in the 60's and 70's about defending racial segregation. It was the threat of losing their tax-exempt status that got them all hot & bothered and into politics because their segregated schools were going lose tax-exempt status. Racism is the ugly starting point of the religious-right (though it is largely gone now).

And they did eventually have to (quietly) admit that the liberals were right about that
. Heck, Pat Robertson now has token black people on his TV shows. It will be a mix of both . . . some people will bail on their religion but I suspect most will just quietly change their views and not admit or rationalize that their religion was wrong.

I think we agree on everything except the bolded (edit: also there's still racism there). What's important is that Pat Robertson isn't likely to actually admit that he was wrong and liberals were right unless pressed very hard and confronted with lots of quotes. At best I imagine you can find him saying something very passive, like "segregation was wrong" with no finger-pointing whatsoever. Meanwhile he's had no difficulty transitioning to talking about how (at least modern) liberals are the real racists. And people without the sort of incentive Robertson has to remain socially acceptable won't go nearly as far. Edit: And Robertson is probably a bad example of a sincere believer, anyway.
 
This just in from the NY Times:

Obama to Pick James B. Comey, Former Bush Official, to Lead F.B.I.

President Obama plans to nominate James B. Comey, a hedge fund executive and a former senior Justice Department official under President George W. Bush, to replace Robert S. Mueller III as the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, according to a person with knowledge of the selection.

Mr. Comey, 52, was chosen for the position over the other finalist for the job, Lisa O. Monaco, who has served as the White House’s top counterterrorism adviser since January. By choosing Mr. Comey, a Republican, Mr. Obama made a strong statement about bipartisanship at a time when he faces renewed criticism from Republicans in Congress and has had difficulty confirming some important nominees.

As deputy attorney general in the Bush administration, Mr. Comey was a critical player in 2004 in the dramatic hospital room episode in which the White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, and Mr. Bush’s chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., tried to persuade Attorney General John Ashcroft — who was ill and disoriented — to reauthorize a warrantless eavesdropping program.​
 
I think we agree on everything except the bolded (edit: also there's still racism there). What's important is that Pat Robertson isn't likely to actually admit that he was wrong and liberals were right unless pressed very hard and confronted with lots of quotes. At best I imagine you can find him saying something very passive, like "segregation was wrong" with no finger-pointing whatsoever. Meanwhile he's had no difficulty transitioning to talking about how (at least modern) liberals are the real racists. And people without the sort of incentive Robertson has to remain socially acceptable won't go nearly as far. Edit: And Robertson is probably a bad example of a sincere believer, anyway.

Yeah, they are not going to come out and say "You know what . . . . I WAS WRONG!". But they'll just stop talking about it, change their behavior, and act like they never did bad things. That is why I said "(quietly) admit". The actions speak louder than the words.


Pat Robertson is just a crazy nut. He actually has been coming out as kinda pro-pot-legalization . . . and he blamed liberals for the fact that it was illegal.
 
Unconfirmed reports of Pakistan Taliban's number 2 killed in a drone attack
PESHAWAR, Pakistan: A suspected US drone strike killed the No. 2 commander of the Pakistani Taleban on Wednesday, Pakistani intelligence officials said, although the militant group denied he was dead.
If confirmed, the death of Waliur Rehman would be a strong blow to the militant group responsible for hundreds of bombings and shootings across Pakistan. The United States has a $5 million bounty out on Rehman, who Washington has accused of involvement in the 2009 suicide attack on a US base in Afghanistan that killed seven Americans working for the CIA.
Missiles fired by a US drone slammed into a house early Wednesday in Miran Shah, the main town of the North Waziristan tribal region, killing five people including Rehman, Pakistani officials said.
Two officials said their informants in the field saw Rehman’s body, while a third said intelligence authorities had intercepted communications between militants saying Rehman had been killed. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to brief reporters.
A spokesman for the Pakistani Taleban denied the reports.
“This appears to me to be false news. I don’t have any such information,” said Ahsanullah Ahsan.
White House spokesman Jay Carney declined to confirm if Rehman was dead. He said if the reports were true, Rehman’s death would deprive the militant group of its chief military strategist involved in “horrific attacks” on a CIA base in Afghanistan and other attacks against Pakistani civilians and soldiers.
 
Stewart's not gonna be gone forever, is he?

Just for two weeks while he directs a movie.

I thought it was more like two months. Doesn't matter. John Oliver will do a fine job.

Stewart will be gone for 12 weeks.

http://www.deadline.com/2013/03/jon-stewart-daily-show-hiatus-john-oliver-hosting-rosewater/

Jon Stewart will take a 12-week summer hiatus from hosting Comedy Central‘s The Daily Show to make his feature directing debut. In his absence, Daily Show regular John Oliver will be guest host for eight weeks of fresh shows.
 

Gotchaye

Member
Yeah, they are not going to come out and say "You know what . . . . I WAS WRONG!". But they'll just stop talking about it, change their behavior, and act like they never did bad things. That is why I said "(quietly) admit". The actions speak louder than the words.


Pat Robertson is just a crazy nut. He actually has been coming out as kinda pro-pot-legalization . . . and he blamed liberals for the fact that it was illegal.

But that's what I'm talking about! Religious conservatives I know who are also pro- marijuana legalization will say with a straight face that the drug war is somehow a liberal invention. Robertson's not the only one. Edit: To reiterate, my core point is that modern social conservatism is defined by opposition to liberalism. What's bad is liberal, and with very few exceptions what's bad is determined by what liberals think is good. Squaring those few exceptions requires believing bizarre things about liberals, like "they're responsible for the drug war".

You're assuming a self-awareness which isn't in evidence. People acting like they've changed their minds doesn't imply that they're conscious of having changed their minds. Bad things are liberal. Conservatives were never liberal, so it's just confused to think that they were ever really in favor of bad things. Old conservatives might rationalize past support for something like segregation via something like a tone argument ("I was always in favor of equal rights, but the people trying to tear down segregation were also trying to tear down a lot of really valuable institutions and so had to be opposed"). Young conservatives are in my experience just willing to deny that old conservatives were conservative. Conservatives have been on the right side of history in every dispute that's occurred since 1980 and in all years before the conservative you're talking to was born. Hence "Lincoln was a Republican", although of course the South had a legitimate grievance and the violations of states' rights were egregious and justified secession.

More Edits: An important part of this is that there's no coherent political philosophy here. John Holbo's been very good on this point over the years; he gets a lot of mileage out of his device of taking conservatives more seriously than they take themselves (best example is probably http://examinedlife.typepad.com/johnbelle/2003/11/dead_right.html). It's all "irritable mental gestures which seek to resemble ideas". So it's absolutely a mistake to assume some kind of consistency over time when inferring beliefs from actions.
 
This just in from the NY Times:

Obama to Pick James B. Comey, Former Bush Official, to Lead F.B.I.

President Obama plans to nominate James B. Comey, a hedge fund executive and a former senior Justice Department official under President George W. Bush, to replace Robert S. Mueller III as the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, according to a person with knowledge of the selection.

Mr. Comey, 52, was chosen for the position over the other finalist for the job, Lisa O. Monaco, who has served as the White House’s top counterterrorism adviser since January. By choosing Mr. Comey, a Republican, Mr. Obama made a strong statement about bipartisanship at a time when he faces renewed criticism from Republicans in Congress and has had difficulty confirming some important nominees.

As deputy attorney general in the Bush administration, Mr. Comey was a critical player in 2004 in the dramatic hospital room episode in which the White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, and Mr. Bush’s chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., tried to persuade Attorney General John Ashcroft — who was ill and disoriented — to reauthorize a warrantless eavesdropping program.​

Sigh. Still, I'd rather have him at the FBI than the fucking Supreme Court
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
This just in from the NY Times:

Obama to Pick James B. Comey, Former Bush Official, to Lead F.B.I.

President Obama plans to nominate James B. Comey, a hedge fund executive and a former senior Justice Department official under President George W. Bush, to replace Robert S. Mueller III as the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, according to a person with knowledge of the selection.

Mr. Comey, 52, was chosen for the position over the other finalist for the job, Lisa O. Monaco, who has served as the White House’s top counterterrorism adviser since January. By choosing Mr. Comey, a Republican, Mr. Obama made a strong statement about bipartisanship at a time when he faces renewed criticism from Republicans in Congress and has had difficulty confirming some important nominees.

As deputy attorney general in the Bush administration, Mr. Comey was a critical player in 2004 in the dramatic hospital room episode in which the White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, and Mr. Bush’s chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., tried to persuade Attorney General John Ashcroft — who was ill and disoriented — to reauthorize a warrantless eavesdropping program.​
I don't know enough about Comey to really weigh in on this, but this whole habit of Obama nominating Republicans for positions as a show of "bipartisanship" is really growing tiresome. It's like the lame guy that keeps going after the cheerleader showing no interest in him because he thinks "There's a chance if I show her how much I love her."
 
Remember the 2009 ARRA?

Emergency stimulus for shovel ready projects?

Well, the MBTA has finally (4 years later) approved a bid for one of the projects.

For bike racks.

4 years to build shovel ready bike racks. THANKS OBAMA.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Is it just me or has politics been really boring for the past few months?

:x

Not really, it's been pretty exciting with all these scandals

it's just we need a good mixer in the poliGAF topic. Too much echo in this chamber. Need someone to get our blood up, a good debate is just what this place needs
 
Not really, it's been pretty exciting with all these scandals

it's just we need a good mixer in the poliGAF topic. Too much echo in this chamber. Need someone to get our blood up, a good debate is just what this place needs

We could argue each other's conservative beliefs. :p
 

thekad

Banned
Not really, it's been pretty exciting with all these scandals

it's just we need a good mixer in the poliGAF topic. Too much echo in this chamber. Need someone to get our blood up, a good debate is just what this place needs
When is Hussein Obama going to be impeached for letting Americans die in Benghazi.
 
When do the next employment figures come out?


Heres my guess:

Revisions for previous months, up again.
Numbers for last month? Losses. Sequester results in unemployment going up for the first time in years.
Dow drops 333 points.

And Obama? Instead of going on national TV and attacking the economic terrorists in our midst just comes home and nominates another wall street bush guy to run something.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
We could argue each other's conservative beliefs. :p

I used to think I was a fiscal conservative, but then you guys all kind of showed me the ways in which those ideas were flawed so...yeah, I got shit now. Ever since my cinema and media class I'm almost a full on Marxist
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Question. Is there a discernable difference between the policies of Reaganomics with the economic policies we had in the 1920s and pre-Teddy Roosevelt?
 
I used to think I was a fiscal conservative, but then you guys all kind of showed me the ways in which those ideas were flawed so...yeah, I got shit now. Ever since my cinema and media class I'm almost a full on Marxist

I literally can't remember when my fiscally conservative views switch. One day I guess I found myself a socialist and suddenly I found everything I owned turned red.
 
#cruztovictory is trending.

:jnc

Can't wait to see him and Paul attempting to 1-up each other in a primary, all while forcing Christie/Rubio/Bush to the right. Still, Cruz is no Bachman. He's smart, well spoken, and charismatic. He's also batshit crazy and has no interest in moving to the center on anything.

It'll be fun to watch.
 
I used to think I was a fiscal conservative, but then you guys all kind of showed me the ways in which those ideas were flawed so...yeah, I got shit now. Ever since my cinema and media class I'm almost a full on Marxist

I'm still somewhat fiscally conservative but definitely less so lately. 2 reasons:
1) Japan - They've showed that you can run up debt and not have hyperinflation.
2) Learning about the farce known as Austrian Economics. If you reject empiricism then you are nothing but witchdoctors. VooDoo economics.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Can't wait to see him and Paul attempting to 1-up each other in a primary, all while forcing Christie/Rubio/Bush to the right. Still, Cruz is no Bachman. He's smart, well spoken, and charismatic. He's also batshit crazy and has no interest in moving to the center on anything.

It'll be fun to watch.

Eh, I'd say Bachman was well spoken and charismatic, and you don't get elected without being at least a little smart. She's just batshit insane.
 
#cruztovictory is trending.

:jnc

tumblr_ln9g4rWf1k1qztit6.gif
 

Gotchaye

Member
Low taxes on the rich and very little regulation, mainly.

In that very limited sense, sure, but there were huge differences in what was meant by "low" and "little" in each case. It's hard to compare pre- and post- New Deal policies. The government got huge.

revenues.jpg
 

Nert

Member
We could argue each other's conservative beliefs. :p

You essentially posted this question already in a previous thread (click here for my answer). To the extent that something like "liberalism" can be generalized, I tend to agree with almost all of its broader goals (like reducing inequality and creating robust social safety nets, etc.) while often disagreeing on the "how."
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
In that very limited sense, sure, but there were huge differences in what was meant by "low" and "little" in each case. It's hard to compare pre- and post- New Deal policies. The government got huge.

revenues.jpg

That chart doesn't really explain any policy differentiation between the two. What are the major differences?
 

Karakand

Member
Question. Is there a discernable difference between the policies of Reaganomics with the economic policies we had in the 1920s and pre-Teddy Roosevelt?

Well in taxation and spending, Harding operated on a traditional mindset of cutting spending in conjunction with taxes and we all know how the Laffer curve worked out.
 

Pre

Member
Low taxes on the rich and very little regulation, mainly.

Off the top of my head, I think Mellon/Coolidge slashed the top rate to 26% and Reagan slashed it to 28%. Might be off by a couple of percentage points. Mellon wanted Congress to end the tax-exempt securities used by the rich to shield their wealth, and when Congress didn't do it he proposed cutting taxes to encourage the rich to invest within U.S. borders. Naturally, Coolidge signed the cuts.
 

thcsquad

Member
I don't know enough about Comey to really weigh in on this, but this whole habit of Obama nominating Republicans for positions as a show of "bipartisanship" is really growing tiresome. It's like the lame guy that keeps going after the cheerleader showing no interest in him because he thinks "There's a chance if I show her how much I love her."

I'm beginning to like him. This is making the news stories about his appointment:

Comey became a hero to Democratic opponents of Bush’s warrantless wiretapping program when Comey refused for a time to reauthorize it. Bush revised the surveillance program when confronted with the threat of resignation by Comey and current FBI Director Robert Mueller, who is stepping down in September.

...

Comey was deputy attorney general in 2005 when he unsuccessfully tried to limit tough interrogation tactics against suspected terrorists. He told then-Attorney General Alberto Gonzales that some of the practices were wrong and would damage the department’s reputation.

Some Democrats denounced those methods as torture, particularly the use of waterboarding, which produces the same sensation as drowning.

...

Comey was at the center of one of the Bush administration’s great controversies – an episode that focused attention on the administration’s controversial tactics in the war on terror.

In stunning testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2007, Comey said he thought Bush’s no-warrant wiretapping program was so questionable that Comey refused for a time to reauthorize it, leading to a standoff with White House officials at the bedside of ailing Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Comey said he refused to recertify the program because Ashcroft had reservations about its legality.

Senior government officials had expressed concerns about whether the National Security Agency, which administered the warrantless eavesdropping program, had the proper oversight in place. Other concerns included whether any president possessed the legal and constitutional authority to authorize the program as it was carried out at the time.

The White House, Comey said, recertified the program without the Justice Department’s signoff, allowing it to operate for about three weeks without concurrence on whether it was legal. Comey, Ashcroft, Mueller and other Justice Department officials at one point considered resigning, Comey said.

“I couldn’t stay if the administration was going to engage in conduct that the Department of Justice had said had no legal basis,” Comey told the Senate panel.

A day after the March 10, 2004, incident at Ashcroft’s hospital bedside, Bush ordered changes to the program to accommodate the department’s concerns. Ashcroft signed the presidential order to recertify the program about three weeks later.

The dramatic hospital confrontation involved Comey, who was the acting attorney general during Ashcroft’s absence, and a White House team that included Bush’s then-counsel, Alberto Gonzales, and White House chief of staff Andy Card, Comey said. Gonzales later succeeded Ashcroft as attorney general.

Comey testified that when he refused to certify the program, Gonzales and Card headed to Ashcroft’s sick bed in the intensive care unit at George Washington University Hospital.

When Gonzales appealed to Ashcroft, the ailing attorney general lifted his head off the pillow and in straightforward terms described his views of the program, Comey said. Then he pointed out that Comey, not Ashcroft, held the powers of the attorney general at that moment.

Gonzales and Card then left the hospital room, Comey said.

“I was angry,” Comey told the panel. “I thought I had just witnessed an effort to take advantage of a very sick man who did not have the powers of the attorney general.”

source: http://durangoherald.com/article/20130529/NEWS03/130529424/Obama-preparing-to-name-Comey-to-FBI-
 

Gotchaye

Member
That chart doesn't really explain any policy differentiation between the two. What are the major differences?

Taxing (and spending, more or less) 18% of GDP instead of 5% of GDP doesn't count as a major difference?

A lot of that is military spending, but a lot of it is welfare state stuff. Reagan at his most conservative was defending much more redistribution than we had before the New Deal.
 
I cant make threads so can someone else make a thread for this?

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2013/04/us-lawmaker-proposes-new-criteri-1.html


U.S. Lawmaker Proposes New Criteria for Choosing NSF Grants
by Jeffrey Mervis on 28 April 2013, 3:48 PM |


Representative Lamar Smith (R-TX) is drafting legislation that would require the NSF director to certify that research met a number of new criteria.

The new chair of the House of Representatives science committee has drafted a bill that, in effect, would replace peer review at the National Science Foundation (NSF) with a set of funding criteria chosen by Congress. For good measure, it would also set in motion a process to determine whether the same criteria should be adopted by every other federal science agency.

The legislation, being worked up by Representative Lamar Smith (R-TX), represents the latest—and bluntest—attack on NSF by congressional Republicans seeking to halt what they believe is frivolous and wasteful research being funded in the social sciences. Last month, Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) successfully attached language to a 2013 spending bill that prohibits NSF from funding any political science research for the rest of the fiscal year unless its director certifies that it pertains to economic development or national security. Smith's draft bill, called the "High Quality Research Act," would apply similar language to NSF's entire research portfolio across all the disciplines that it supports.

ScienceInsider has obtained a copy of the legislation, labeled "Discussion Draft" and dated 18 April, which has begun to circulate among members of Congress and science lobbyists. In effect, the proposed bill would force NSF to adopt three criteria in judging every grant. Specifically, the draft would require the NSF director to post on NSF's Web site, prior to any award, a declaration that certifies the research is:

1) "… in the interests of the United States to advance the national health, prosperity, or welfare, and to secure the national defense by promoting the progress of science;

2) "… the finest quality, is groundbreaking, and answers questions or solves problems that are of utmost importance to society at large; and

3) "… not duplicative of other research projects being funded by the Foundation or other Federal science agencies."

NSF's current guidelines ask reviewers to consider the "intellectual merit" of a proposed research project as well as its "broader impacts" on the scientific community and society.

Two weeks ago, Republicans on the science committee took to task both John Holdren, the president's science adviser, and Cora Marrett, the acting NSF director, during hearings on President Barack Obama's proposed 2014 science budget. They read the titles of several grants, questioned the value of the research, and asked both administration officials to defend NSF's decision to fund the work.

On Thursday, Smith sent a letter to Marrett asking for more information on five recent NSF grants. In particular, he requested copies of the comments from each reviewer, as well as the notes of the NSF program officer managing the awards.

In his letter, a copy of which ScienceInsider obtained, Smith wrote: "I have concerns regarding some grants approved by the Foundation and how closely they adhere to NSF's 'intellectual merit' guideline." Today, Smith told ScienceInsider in a statement that "the proposals about which I have requested further information do not seem to meet the high standards of most NSF funded projects."

Smith's request to NSF didn't sit well with the top Democrat on the science committee, Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-TX). On Friday, she sent a blistering missive to Smith questioning his judgment and his motives.

"In the history of this committee, no chairman has ever put themselves forward as an expert in the science that underlies specific grant proposals funded by NSF," Johnson wrote in a letter obtained by ScienceInsider. "I have never seen a chairman decide to go after specific grants simply because the chairman does not believe them to be of high value."

In her letter, Johnson warns Smith that "the moment you compromise both the merit review process and the basic research mission of NSF is the moment you undo everything that has enabled NSF to contribute so profoundly to our national health, prosperity, and welfare." She asks him to "withdraw" his letter and offers to work with him "to identify a less destructive, but more effective, effort" to make sure NSF is meeting that mission.

Smith's bill would require NSF's oversight body, the National Science Board, to monitor the director's actions and issue a report in a year. It also asks Holdren's office to tell Congress how the principles laid down in the legislation "may be implemented in other Federal science agencies."
 
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