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[NYCmetsfan]

 

[Oblivion]

Bravissimo^

Let's be clear on one point: initially, I took your question to concern the concepts involved. Now, I take your question to concern practical outcomes. What you refer to as the "technical distinction" is important, since the distinction between the concepts is important. If the "free enterprise system" concept is distinct from the "crony capitalism" concept, then the fact that one has inevitably resulted in the other doesn't necessarily mean that the one must inevitably result in the other. Instead, we can ask why that has been the outcome in the past, and try to devise a way to avoid it.*

Fair enough, sir.



So, in other news, bankers are still assholes (minor spoilers apparently, if you plan on watching Wolf of Wall Street):

There's a lot of talk about how Wall Street has "changed" since the financial crisis. Compliance is up, bonuses are down, the holiday parties are boring.

But you wouldn't necessarily know that from what these guys were cheering at.

When Belfort — a drug addict who later attempts to remain sober — rips up a couch cushion to get to his secret coke stash, there were cheers.

Then, intercut with Popeye eating spinach, Belfort is irrevocably high on Quaaludes (or "ludes," a muscle relaxer) and dumps coke into his nose to remedy the situation — more cheers.

The worst, though, mild spoiler alert ... At one point later in the movie, the feds get Belfort to wear a wire to implicate others at his firm. Meeting with his No. 2, Belfort slides over a piece of paper: "Don't incriminate yourself. I am wearing a wire."

And the crowd goes wild. Don't rat! Stand by your firm!

Bankers: First of all, don't cheer in a movie. It's weird. You can laugh, but no cheering. Second, guffawing while Leo attempts to evade federal indictment doesn't exactly help America's perception of your societal value.

http://www.businessinsider.com/banker-pros-cheer-wolf-of-wall-street-2013-12#ixzz2oi5df5V0

 

[empty vessel]

Federal judge upholds NSA's vast telephone data collection (Timothy M. Phelps, LAT)

Scalia reported thrilled at having another thing to poop nonsense into.

It's remarkably sad, but telling of bad Democrats got, that a Bush II appointee is better on civil rights than a Clinton appointee, whose belief that people do not have a reasonable expectation in who they call.

“When a person voluntarily conveys information to a third party” such as a telephone company, “he forfeits his right to privacy in the information,” he wrote.

This means that if you would like to keep who you call private, you are expected not to use a telephone. Thus, the options are either that who you call is public, or you do not call anybody. Basically, we have the government leveraging technological growth (which is impossible to use without a third party providing the service) to erode privacy rights. This reasoning also means that the content of our calls placed over mobile devices is public.

Note that all of this really boils down to policy choices. We are free to choose whether privacy should attach to communications we make notwithstanding that we are dependent upon a third party like communications company to make them.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

It's remarkably sad, but telling of bad Democrats got, that a Bush II appointee is better on civil rights than a Clinton appointee, whose belief that people do not have a reasonable expectation in who they call.

“When a person voluntarily conveys information to a third party” such as a telephone company, “he forfeits his right to privacy in the information,” he wrote.

This means that if you would like to keep who you call private, you are expected not to use a telephone. Thus, the options are either that who you call is public, or you do not call anybody. Basically, we have the government leveraging technological growth (which is impossible to use without a third party providing the service) to erode privacy rights. This reasoning also means that the content of our calls placed over mobile devices is public.

Note that all of this really boils down to policy choices. We are free to choose whether privacy should attach to communications we make notwithstanding that we are dependent upon a third party like communications company to make them.

How does his reasoning and smiths in general preclude collecting voice recording. Isn't technically your voice data which your voluntarily giving to a third party to to route it to another customer? I guess they can argue the metadata is a business record but the logical step in the line of thinking.

The main problem is it is a general warrant which is the main reason the 4th amendment exists. Smith was also one phone number not every damn number in the country. The 4th has a requirement for warrants that excludes exactly what the metadata warrants say.

 

[Oblivion]

The enrollment figures may be well short of what the Obama administration had hoped for. But the fact that a significant number of Americans are now benefiting from the program is resulting in a subtle shift among Republicans.

“It’s no longer just a piece of paper that you can repeal and it goes away,” said Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin and a Tea Party favorite. “There’s something there. We have to recognize that reality. We have to deal with the people that are currently covered under Obamacare.”

And that underscores a central fact of American politics since Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act during the Depression: Once a benefit has been bestowed, it is nearly impossible to take it away.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/gop-confronting-new-reality-healthcare

Note: That's not just any random Republican saying that. We're talking about a full on bonafide teabagger.

Though I'm sure in a few days he'll come out with a bill to repeal child labor laws to repent for his statement.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/gop-confronting-new-reality-healthcare

Note: That's not just any random Republican saying that. We're talking about a full on bonafide teabagger.

Though I'm sure in a few days he'll come out with a bill to repeal child labor laws to repent for his statement.

#RINO

 

[Averon]

Yup.

That was why the GOP tried their damnedest to cripple the law or outright repeal it. Now that Obamacare is real, happening, and people are now directly benefiting from it, any campaign to repeal means that you're campaigning on taking away people's healthcare, which is political suicide.

 

[Chichikov]

Federal judge upholds NSA's vast telephone data collection (Timothy M. Phelps, LAT)


Scalia reported thrilled at having another thing to poop nonsense into.

Ugh, what a terrible terrible decision.
And outside the points that already been raised here in this thread (no expectation of privacy when using a phone? what?) I'd like to point out that calling it "“the government’s counterpunch against the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks" and saying that “The government learned from its mistake and adapted to confront a new enemy, a terror network capable of orchestrating attacks across the world” is some crazy ass bullshit.

We had all the information about the 9/11 attacks, it was inter-agency fighting and lack of communication that allowed those fuckers to evade the law, not the 4th amendment.
Also, for the love of god, it's a bunch of cave dwellers who got box cutters on planes, how the fuck is that a reasonable response to that type of threat?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

And that underscores a central fact of American politics since Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act during the Depression: Once a benefit has been bestowed, it is nearly impossible to take it away.

*If its a program that benefits the middle class.

they gut programs to the poor all the time. Its not a fact.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

‏@BobbyJindal 1h
I’m glad to hear that A&E came to its senses & recognized that tolerance of religious views is more important than political correctness

‏@BobbyJindal 1h
I’m glad to hear that A&E came to its senses & recognized that tolerance of religious views is more important than political correctness

‏@BobbyJindal 1h
The left is going to have to get accustomed to the fact that it does not have a monopoly on free speech

@BobbyJindal 1h
The left is not the only group who is permitted to voice its opinion in the public square

@BobbyJindal 1h
The left may control Hollywood, but they don’t control the hearts and minds of a majority of Americans

"The GOP has got to stop being the stupid party"- Bobby Jindal

 

[thepotatoman]

“The hardest problem for us is what to do next,” Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) told Weisman.

I don't know what the Republicans are doing next, but I do know what the Democrats are doing next: Playing defense on whatever Republicans decide to focus on next.

Is there any possible way they can make something popular like gay marriage or minimum wage the issue of 2014 instead of waiting for Republicans to make something like the debt the issue of 2014?

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's going to be pretty hard for republicans to add talking point nonsense to the law, specifically the "buy plans across state lines" stuff and ending the mandate. I'd imagine most Obamacare premiums will increase yearly regardless, but a straight up major bad change would spike prices.

On paper though, I like the general idea of small businesses pooling together to provide healthcare for their workers. I'd have to see details though obviously.

 

[Chichikov]

Is there any possible way they can make something popular like gay marriage or minimum wage the issue of 2014 instead of waiting for Republicans to make something like the debt the issue of 2014?

I've been saying for a while that the dems should give another serious go to the Equal Rights Amendment, it's a fucking travesty that it got stalled (fuck you Phyllis Schlafly) it's the right thing to do, it's about fucking time, and it's also going to help the Democrats politically.

Not to mention that reminding the people that you can fucking amend the constitution is a very good thing.

 

[Karakand]

I mean, I get the technical distinction, but I guess my question is, how does a supposedly free market system NOT end up as crony capitalism? I could be wrong, but I can't think of any instance in U.S. history where that wasn't the case.

O did you get a copy of Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism for Xmas.

 

[RustyNails]

Barack Obama opened the blinds of his window and sighed. Snow, again. This was his home, not far from the very streets and alleys he helped organize as a young man. Yet despite the familiarity, he felt out of place. It was a feeling Obama had known all his life, and as he watched snow flakes slowly descend from a foreboding sky he couldn't help but laugh bitterly. Snow in place of sand; a horrible trade, yet Obama had made worse deals with John Boehner.

The country believed that he was in Hawaii, with his family for their annual Christmas vacation. In reality, Michelle and the girls had gone without him. Obama sat down on his bed in Chicago; a few Secret Service members were outside the door, ever his shadow. He had played cards with them the night before, listening to their life stories. It seemed as if each member of the Service sacrificed so much to protect him. Family, friends, love, even their lives if needed. His senior Secret Service agent had once been married, and even had two daughters. Yet he had lost them due to the demands of his job, first as a Navy SEAL and then as a Secret Service member. The agent's hair was as white as the snow outside of Obama's house, and he wondered whether he would suffer a similar fate.

Helle. A simple name. Easier to remember than her hypinated last name, Thorning-Schmidt. Obama rubbed the coal out his eyes as he remembered the day that resulted in his current predicament. It was just a photo. A simple request, one which was asked often of Obama. He had allowed Helle to take his picture, and even posed with her. Michelle was furious, yet to this day Obama could not understand why. His wife had known him for more than twenty years, and no doubt knew he had remained faithful. "Unlike her," Obama whispered to himself, emotionless. In truth, Helle's innocent request had entertained him in a way he hadn't been in months. It was good to have a friend again.

Yet he felt no attraction to her. In truth, she reminded him of someone else. Her blonde hair, the way her eyes exploded with life, her laugh. They were comforting and encouraging, like a father's hug or being tucked in by a loving parent - feelings Obama had never known. In truth, these traits had been missing from his life since January. He remembered it like yesterday. "Once again, thank you for saying yes so many years ago. Something tells me you'll be back here in a few years..." They walked through a beautifully lit hall of the White House - his hands nervously in his pocket, hers at her sides. Hands in need of embrace. She laughed, and the hall seemed to lighten even more. "That's a long ways off. I could be back earlier than that, for events." Obama smiled. "I would like that." He had hugged her afterwards, an embrace that seemed to last forever. And with that, she walked out of the White House, out of his life.

The rest of the year was hell, from one disaster to another. He had managed to keep things together for his first few years, with her at his side. Like a child trying to impress the loving parent he had never had, he had tried his best to prove to her that he was up to the job. Yet without her presence, Obama had retreated deep into himself. He couldn't take it anymore. He reached for his phone, which was on the dresser; no one had called to wish him Merry Christmas. He dialed a number, and held his breath.

Subtle

 

[Particle Physicist]

"The GOP has got to stop being the stupid party"- Bobby Jindal

It is incredible to me that an elected official does not understand the Constitution. Scary in fact. The guy flat out said that A&E did not believe in the First Amendment.

 

[Aaron Strife]

It is incredible to me that an elected official does not understand the Constitution. Scary in fact. The guy flat out said that A&E did not believe in the First Amendment.

Seriously, I'd consider them the most ardent supporters of the First Amendment, if only for how well they exploit the right of people to be dumbasses.

 

[RustyNails]

Poligaf is so dead over the holidays I'm being sucked into pointless arguments in the gaming side. Help me poligaf. PD, more fanfic please but more IR this time.

 

[thepotatoman]

Christie apparently leading Hillary in CNN poll of hypothetical matchups.

According to the poll, 48% of registered voters say they would support support Christie, the Republican governor of New Jersey, if he were the GOP nominee, with 46% saying they would back Clinton, the former secretary of state, U.S. senator, and first lady, if she captured the Democratic nomination. Christie's 2-point margin is within the survey's sampling error.

 

[eBay Huckster]

Christie apparently leading Hillary in CNN poll of hypothetical matchups.

well, a CNN poll said it, so everyone needs to panic now like they did with the other one

 

[thepotatoman]

well, a CNN poll said it, so everyone needs to panic now like they did with the other one

Well we need something to panic about to fill in the holes when congress goes on vacation.

 

[Averon]

Panic about a two point spread in one poll about an election that's not happening for nearly three years between two candidates who haven't even announced their candidacy yet?

Yup, that's right up PoliGAF's alley.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Panic about a two point spread in one poll about an election that's not happening for nearly three years between two candidates who haven't even announced their candidacy yet?

Yup, that's right up PoliGAF's alley.

And one Candidate isn't even going to make it past the primary due to how zealously retarded the GOP's base is.

 

[Diablos]

And one Candidate isn't even going to make it past the primary due to how zealously retarded the GOP's base is.

Not so sure about that. After McCain and Romney just enough of the base might be smart enough to thumb their noses at ultra conservative strongholds and go with a more "mainstream" kind of guy who fares well in places like New York during primary season (Christie). After all, isn't the GOP revamping the way their primary works for 2016 to favor candidates like him in the general (without completely selling his soul so he can compete in states like PA, OH, FL, etc. etc.)

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Not so sure about that. After McCain and Romney just enough of the base might be smart enough

base

smart

brendanfraserawardshowlaugh.gif

 

[Diablos]

brendanfraserawardshowlaugh.gif

B-b-b-but moderates. I can already think of like 10 people I know who voted for Obama that are semi in love with Christie.

If they tweak the primary system to cater to those moderates so that their votes have more sway to drown out the base and their crazy train, it just might pay off for the GOP. Lawd knows there's been a fuckton of mentions about how Wall Street is trying to get the GOP more in line for future elections to prevent electing more people actively cheering on another recession among other crazy things.

btw if memory serves correctly, wasn't Romney always assumed to be the nominee even after the 2008 election? I often wonder if we've reached a point where you can't say "well we are [x] years out, who knows who the GOP nominee will be" with a lot of confidence. It is all but assured that Hillary is going to get the nom if she runs, the only way she doesn't is if she... doesn't run.

 

[ivysaur12]

Panic about a two point spread in one poll about an election that's not happening for nearly three years between two candidates who haven't even announced their candidacy yet?

Yup, that's right up PoliGAF's alley.

.

 

[sc0la]

Poligaf is so dead over the holidays I'm being sucked into pointless arguments in the gaming side. Help me poligaf. PD, more fanfic please but more IR this time.

I want a PD fanfic about Obama longing for Hillary to be back in the cabinet, or even that she had best him in 08. Barack realizing Hillary is the women Michelle could never be. The woman he could never be.

 

[The Technomancer]

Its the holidays, which means listening to my mother explain very slowly, very carefully and non-antagonistically to my conservative relatives just how the ACA is actually a good thing because, since my parents are both fully self employed, we've been getting absolutely screwed by the insurance market for almost thirty years and we know just how shitty the system really is.

 

[cooljeanius]

I want a PD fanfic about Obama longing for Hillary to be back in the cabinet, or even that she had best him in 08. Barack realizing Hillary is the women Michelle could never be. The woman he could never be.

Did you look just a few posts above you?

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Remember when Herman Cain had a two-point lead on Obama?

 

[Incognito]

damn, it's not even 2014 and Obama is already dragging down Hillary. can't imagine the effect on democratic congresscritters...

 

[Diablos]

damn, it's not even 2014 and Obama is already dragging down Hillary. can't imagine the effect on democratic congresscritters...

Trolling?

 

[Hobbestetrician]

Christie apparently leading Hillary in CNN poll of hypothetical matchups.

Damn, those 1,000 years of darkness went by fast.

 

[Manmademan]

Damn, those 1,000 years of darkness went by fast.

It doesn't matter how well he matches up in the general, if he has no shot of passing a republican primary.

 

[Diablos]

It doesn't matter how well he matches up in the general, if he has no shot of passing a republican primary.

Didn't we say this about Romney?

 

[B-Dubs]

Didn't we say this about Romney?

True, but also like Romney, Christie will implode. He will either do it himself or a scandal from his past will surface and sour everyone on him instantly.

 

[Diablos]

True, but also like Romney, Christie will implode. He will either do it himself or a scandal from his past will surface and sour everyone on him instantly.

Unlike Romney however, Christie has some charisma and knows how to talk to everyday people without sounding like a heartless CEO. Plus, 47% tape.

Honestly, if Romney can get the nomination Chris Christie sure as hell can get it too -- especially when you take into account that the GOP seems to be serious in tweaking their primary system to be even more favorable to candidates like him.

 

[B-Dubs]

Unlike Romney however, Christie has some charisma and knows how to talk to everyday people without sounding like a heartless CEO. Plus, 47% tape.

If this bridge thing is any indication, Christie will have some dark-ish stuff in his past. Romney passed on him for a reason. Just like McCain passed on Romney for a reason.

 

[Manmademan]

Didn't we say this about Romney?

Romney was certain to pass the primary- He would just end up horribly damaged in doing so. There was no one who could out fundraise him. He simply spent everyone else into oblivion.

but EVEN SO, Romney barely squeaked out wins against complete joke candidates while outspending them 8 to 1 and in some cases 12 to 1. Santorum, Bachmann, Cain, and Gingrich weren't anywhere close to serious candidates and he STILL struggled against them. Perry (the only one close to being a legitimate candidate) did him a favor by self destructing on stage.

Christie doesn't have Romney's money or Romney's network. Romney's entire job for 4 years was preparing to run for president and lining up donors. Christie doesn't have that luxury or the ability- he still has to run Jersey, and his (presumed) opposition in 2016 is FAR stronger. He polls absolutely horrifically against the likes of Cruz, Paul, and Ryan in a republican primary, which is dominated by conservative christians and the tea party.

Could that improve? certainly- but only by running far right, which damages him in the general. His whole appeal is that he got a huge boost by bucking the party to work with obama, and isn't seen as a teaparty douchebag.

edit: my prediction- Christie makes a good effort, but drops out early- ends up as the frontrunner for VP for Paul, Cruz, or Ryan.

 

[Diablos]

If this bridge thing is any indication, Christie will have some dark-ish stuff in his past. Romney passed on him for a reason. Just like McCain passed on Romney for a reason.

How bad can it be?

 

[B-Dubs]

How bad can it be?

Dunno, but it looks like he recently shut down a bridge into Manhattan as revenge so anything's possible.

There's also this from the NYTimes.

In 2010, John F. McKeon, a New Jersey assemblyman, made what he thought was a mild comment on a radio program: Some of the public employees that Gov. Chris Christie was then vilifying had been some of the governor’s biggest supporters.

He was surprised to receive a handwritten note from Mr. Christie, telling him that he had heard the comments, and that he didn’t like them.

“I thought it was a joke,” Mr. McKeon recalled. “What governor would take the time to write a personal note over a relatively innocuous comment?”

But the gesture would come to seem genteel compared with the fate suffered by others in disagreements with Mr. Christie: a former governor who was stripped of police security at public events; a Rutgers professor who lost state financing for cherished programs; a state senator whose candidate for a judgeship suddenly stalled; another senator who was disinvited from an event with the governor in his own district.

In almost every case, Mr. Christie waved off any suggestion that he had meted out retribution. But to many, the incidents have left that impression, and it has been just as powerful in scaring off others who might dare to cross him.

I have a feeling stuff like this is just the tip of the ice berg. We'll only hear more of these stories as we get closer to the election.

 

[Diablos]

Romney was certain to pass the primary- He would just end up horribly damaged in doing so. There was no one who could out fundraise him. He simply spent everyone else into oblivion.

but EVEN SO, Romney barely squeaked out wins against complete joke candidates while outspending them 8 to 1 and in some cases 12 to 1. Santorum, Bachmann, Cain, and Gingrich weren't anywhere close to serious candidates and he STILL struggled against them. Perry (the only one close to being a legitimate candidate) did him a favor by self destructing on stage.

Christie doesn't have Romney's money or Romney's network. Romney's entire job for 4 years was preparing to run for president and lining up donors. Christie doesn't have that luxury or the ability- he still has to run Jersey, and his (presumed) opposition in 2016 is FAR stronger. He polls absolutely horrifically against the likes of Cruz, Paul, and Ryan in a republican primary, which is dominated by conservative christians and the tea party.

Could that improve? certainly- but only by running far right, which damages him in the general. His whole appeal is that he got a huge boost by bucking the party to work with obama, and isn't seen as a teaparty douchebag.

Christie doesn't need Romney's money or network -- he's a GOP Gov in a blue state who is running it NOW, and not years ago (and leaving a crappy legacy behind). He can point to exit polls from this year and show that he is a force to be reckoned with when running against a Democrat.

How he fares against others in his party is irrelevant right now -- I remember when McCain polled at only 8% against everyone else back in 2006 or so. That can change, and fast. And if Christie sells his soul, he'll do a much better job at doing so because he's charismatic, and doesn't sound like a robot. Let's face it, Romney made politicans like even John Kerry look more charismatic.

Really, it's going to boil down to three things: Charisma/personality, tweaked GOP primary rules, and a likely change in how elections are funded because of continued hacking away at the integrity of elections thanks to our Supreme Court. If Obama continues to turn people off, that'll be another problem for Hillary.

 

[Manmademan]

Christie doesn't need Romney's money or network -- he's a GOP Gov in a blue state who is running it NOW, and not years ago (and leaving a crappy legacy behind). He can point to exit polls from this year and show that he is a force to be reckoned with when running against a Democrat.

And his opponents can point to pictures of Christie shaking hands with Obama during hurricane sandy, and refusing to campaign for Romney around the same time to damage him. Republican primary voters do NOT have the same interests as Republican general voters. They do not believe in compromise, and Christie's current standing with blue state democrats is actually a negative.

How he fares against others in his party is irrelevant right now -- I remember when McCain polled at only 8% against everyone else back in 2006 or so

McCain very nearly went bankrupt that year, and got a lot of help from Mike Huckabee siphoning off votes from Romney, who was self funding his campaign that year and dropped out prematurely. That won't happen again, and how he polls against literally EVERYONE slated to run is very much relevant.

That can change, and fast. And if Christie sells his soul, he'll do a much better job at doing so because he's charismatic, and doesn't sound like a robot. Let's face it, Romney made politicans like even John Kerry look more charismatic.

Christie selling his soul loses his standing with moderates, which is the only group he has going for him right now. The far left AND far right hates him.

Off topic: pretty sure i got the worst christmas present in poligaf this year. NOT a gag gift, someone actually thought this was appropriate:

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Romney was also a GOP Gov in a bluer state...and lost in the general.

 

[theprodigy]

Trolling?

well, I don't know, why don't you tell me-

Incognito
Troll
(Today, 11:08 AM)

 

[Manmademan]

Romney was also a GOP Gov in a bluer state...and lost in the general.

Correct. but it wasn't his governorship that won him the primary.

Run romney with less money than his opponents, and give him opponents that can actually string a sentence together and he gets destroyed. Governor Mike Huckabee absolutely kicked his ass all over the south and there was nothing he could do.

 

[Diablos]

Romney was so far removed from being Gov, though. It had been a long time. Christie being a sitting Gov in this day and age may play to his benefit particularly if people in NJ/the region still like him in '16.

He ran full steam ahead with the "I'm a business guy herp mcderp" narrative with some chest pounding over being Gov on the side, but not too excessive.

 

[B-Dubs]

Romney was so far removed from being Gov, though. It had been a long time. Christie being a sitting Gov in this day and age may play to his benefit particularly if people in NJ/the region still like him in '16.

He ran full steam ahead with the "I'm a business guy herp mcderp" narrative with some chest pounding over being Gov on the side, but not too excessive.

He had to do that because he couldn't run on his being Governor due to the healthcare thing.

Christie isn't going to be nearly as shiny come 2016, there's going to be more and more dirt dug up on his as time passes and we get closer to the primary and election.

 

[Manmademan]

Romney was so far removed from being Gov, though. It had been a long time.

Joe Average voter had no idea when he was governor and didn't care. Just being governor, even if he was complete shit at it (which he was) was enough.

Oddly enough, there was a current republican governor running in the race with an excellent record. He ended up getting destroyed, because he had a reputation for compromising with democrats. Three guesses what his name was.